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SonGoku
Member
what about those gcn traces found in drivers that made us think navi is gcn?
Negotiator
Member
This doesn't bode well for PS4 BC.
AMD Radeon RX 5000 är hybrid med inslag av GCN – "renodlad" RDNA först år 2020
Trots utfästelser om att Radeon RX 5000-serien baseras på en helt ny arkitektur blir det en hybrid mellan Radeon DNA och åldrande Graphics Core Next, i alla...www.sweclockers.com
Interesting! So in layman terms the first edition of Navi chips are the potato edition. Would also explain previous driver leaks with GCN traces.
Makes sense AMD is waiting for next gen PS5/SNEK games designed around the new arch to launch alongside them pure RDNA big Navi.
Does that mean GCN optimized games will run like crap on PS5? Or will Sony also add a small GCN GPU for PS4 BC purposes (kinda like what Nintendo did on Wii U)?
SonGoku
Member
I presume PS5 will have enough raw power to brute force past any PS4 GCN optimizations.
Important to keep in mind these first Navi cards are small chips so it makes sense AMD would want to benefit from GCN optimizations in games to remain competitive.
alas this is all speculation on my part, just thought it was an interesting find
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ResilientBanana
Member
I thought something similar until proven wrong earlier in this thread. From what I gather, it has more bandwidth but can't produce the amount of Gbps as it's not clocked as fast. Again, with my limited knowledge, that is what I came up with.
Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD
They'd have to cut the video capture feature (1GB+) and the greedy OS system (2GB+, back to then tens of MB on PS3) .. otherwise they'd have nearly no memory at all. Plus if you half the chips (not half the capacity of the chips) your bus is now half width too.. Memory bus woulnt have been...
The chart on this website is pretty good for reference
GDDR5 vs GDDR5X vs HBM2 vs GDDR6 vs GDDR6X Memory Comparison
Comparison and Difference between GDDR5, GDDR5X, HBM, and HBM2 memory types. These are all high-speed and high bandwidth memories that are used in graphics cards, high-end servers, and advanced hardware units. GDDR5 is the most widely used high-speed memory that you see in the current generation...
graphicscardhub.com
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ethomaz
Banned
Maybe because that.
The guy risked Navi (GFX10) from his table.
Google translate from here: https://namu.wiki/w/Graphics Core Next#s-3.5.1
The professional lineup will continue being GCN... that EF_AMDGPU_MACH_AMDGCN_GFX1010 line can be only to support some GCN Vega sucessor and not Navi.
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xool
Member
Quote : "Despite first- and second-generation High Bandwidth Memory having made few appearances in shipping products, Samsung and Hynix are already working on a followup: HBM3. Teased at the Hot Chips symposium in Cupertino, Calfornia, HBM3 will offer improved density, bandwidth, and power efficiency. Perhaps most importantly though, given the high cost of HBM1 and HBM2, HBM3 will be cheaper to produce."
They're aiming at cheaper, faster, better ..
shark sandwich
tenuously links anime, pedophile and incels
You are confused. Gbps is a measure of bandwidth. And Radeon VII has the highest bandwidth by far (1024 Gbps).I thought something similar until proven wrong earlier in this thread. From what I gather, it has more bandwidth but can't produce the amount of Gbps as it's not clocked as fast. Again, with my limited knowledge, that is what I came up with.
Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD
They'd have to cut the video capture feature (1GB+) and the greedy OS system (2GB+, back to then tens of MB on PS3) .. otherwise they'd have nearly no memory at all. Plus if you half the chips (not half the capacity of the chips) your bus is now half width too.. Memory bus woulnt have been...www.neogaf.com
The chart on this website is pretty good for reference
GDDR5 vs GDDR5X vs HBM2 vs GDDR6 vs GDDR6X Memory Comparison
Comparison and Difference between GDDR5, GDDR5X, HBM, and HBM2 memory types. These are all high-speed and high bandwidth memories that are used in graphics cards, high-end servers, and advanced hardware units. GDDR5 is the most widely used high-speed memory that you see in the current generation...
You could hypothetically come up with some GDDR6 configuration that gives you more than that if you have enough chips/wide enough bus/high enough clock speed. But I guarantee you these first Navi products will come nowhere near that, and next gen consoles probably won’t either.
Look at that chart in your first link and you can see what it would take to hit 1024 Gbps with GDDR6.
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FranXico
Member
HBM3 might have been the reason that the PS5 launch got pushed back into 2020.
Ar¢tos
Member
It wouldn't make sense naming it differently then.
Navi20 is probably navi10 + RT hw.
PS5 is probably navi10.5
SonGoku
Member
idk man not holding my breath, its much more likely it got pushed because of 7nm yields and RDNA readiness.
880GB/s would be possible with 24GB GDDR6 though realistically i don't expect them to use faster than 16Gbps chips
Still doesn't explain the Navi code name tying with it... A Vega GCN successor wouldn't be called Navi.
This news might be an elaborate fake based on these driver releases but it has some merits to it where it could be true.
ethomaz
Banned
Which Navi code?
The rumor is based on EF_AMDGPU_MACH_AMDGCN_GFX1010 being Navi... but this code is really Navi?
Edit - Looking more into I found the GFX1010 being Navi started with that tweet:
But he is even making a question (?) not confirming it.
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Ellery
Member
Yeah but it comes down to cost aswell. I don't have any numbers so I am just speculating but I am certain a 7nm chip which comes with 64 enabled CUs is more expensive in 2020 than whatever exactly the PS4 had in 2013.
It might be technically possible to have much more CUs in it, but what would it cost? How hot would it get? How much power would it draw?
I hope we get reviews for the RX 5700 in 2 weeks during or after E3 so we can see exactly where those chips will land regarding CUs, power draw, clockspeed, size etc.
Personally I do have a weirdly bad feeling about it all, but I am mostly basing it on intuition and the fact that I never get what I really wish for.
I think I shared my expectations for the PS5 gpu in here some weeks ago and I still stand by it. Considered to be very conservative by many.
The TFLOP amount shouldn't change just because Navi is "supposed" to be a better architecture than Vega, because the way you calculate TFLOPs basically stays the same with Compute Units and clockspeed and it looks like RDNA is not that big of a chance as people hoped it would be and AMD used that a bit as a marketing "trick" to get away from the bad image that GCN has.
Maybe I should go back and read through this thread again and see what TFLOPs others expect. Would make for a fun PS5 reveal either way
SonGoku
Member
PS5 will be 100% RDNA and have at least 56CUs enabled
Its in AMD best interests next gen consoles feature pure RDNA to benefit from game optimizations on the PC side.
That's what EG wrote based on this Phoronix report
Not sure if its speculation on their part?
ResilientBanana
Member
Oh yes, you are correct, HBM has some mega bandwidth. Sorry about that!
ethomaz
Banned
They all base GFX1010 being Navi on the tweet I posted... it is a rumor.
Edit - The same leaker said that about GCN.
"> In the future, GCN will continue to live, and there will be a new version of THE GPU. However, it was implied that GCN would continue to be developed for HPC (High Performance Computing) in the future. "
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SonGoku
Member
Yeah i saw your edit.
How likely/unlikely do you think GFX1010 is anything other than Navi? considering GFX900 is Vega.
ethomaz
Banned
I don't know... we need to wait the RX 5700 launch and its driver.
Or what least what AMD will share next week.
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Ar¢tos
Member
I'm dumb and can't do simple math. I meant midway between 10 and 20.... Which would be 15, not 10.5 . Duh for me!
Navi10 + some Navi20 features
SonGoku
Member
Exiting times ahead.
I would expect PS5 to have all the features of the latest AMD card, just like the PS4 matched r9 290x feature set and the Pro had some features ahead of its time.
A 64CU (56 enabled) should fit with room to spare on a console sized 350mm2 APU. At that size it wouldn't cost much more than PS4s in 2013
The benefit with going with more CUs clocked lower is to provide a better perf/watt sweet spot thus providing better thermals and consumption
AMD tends to clock their cards past diminishing returns for max performance, so its not representative of what you can get on a console with a different configuration
That's a fine stance to take, im more in for the tech discussion of whats possible that might not necessarily translate to reality. But im hopeful
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CrustyBritches
Gold Member
I think DF using a 1080 as comparison is valid. What Polaris 10 was in relation to the R9 390/390X is similar to what Navi 10 is to the Vega 56/64. Navi 10 occupies the same "TDP" tier as RX 480/580 while performing like a Vega 56/64.
When Polaris 10 released AMD was aiming hard at the $250 150W single 6-pin pci-e target. AMD used a blower fan setup and it was compact-ish dual slot. It ended up hot and hungry I'm glad I waited for the 8-pin triple fan AIB(AIBs were $269+). I don't know if AMD will have their own reference cards, but looking at Asrock's designs, Sapphire rep leak, and leaked pcb there's 2x8-pin power connectors, beefy triple fan hsf, beefy VRM setup, and alleged $399(Pro)/$499(XT) price points.
When the mining surge pushed the price of RX 480 8GB from $250 in 2016 to upwards of $400 over the next 2yrs Nvidia was perfectly happy to make $350-500 the new mid-range. All this is just to say that looking at everything we know and the Sapphire rep comments it seems AMD is positioning these cards as RTX 2060 and RTX 2070 competitors and will price accordingly. Because of AdoredTV I think everybody was expecting cheap and power efficient instead of what 7nm Navi 10 actually ended up being.
Expectations created by Adored leaks:
That RX 3080 Navi 10 XT is listed at 150W/$250...just like RX 480 release. Reality is that Navi 10 XT is more like 220W/$499. Adored probably speculated about most of this data using ideal AMD pr numbers and the jump from 28nm to 14nm. When Computex neared he probably got wind of reality from his sources and was like "abandon ship!".
When the mining surge pushed the price of RX 480 8GB from $250 in 2016 to upwards of $400 over the next 2yrs Nvidia was perfectly happy to make $350-500 the new mid-range. All this is just to say that looking at everything we know and the Sapphire rep comments it seems AMD is positioning these cards as RTX 2060 and RTX 2070 competitors and will price accordingly. Because of AdoredTV I think everybody was expecting cheap and power efficient instead of what 7nm Navi 10 actually ended up being.
Expectations created by Adored leaks:
That RX 3080 Navi 10 XT is listed at 150W/$250...just like RX 480 release. Reality is that Navi 10 XT is more like 220W/$499. Adored probably speculated about most of this data using ideal AMD pr numbers and the jump from 28nm to 14nm. When Computex neared he probably got wind of reality from his sources and was like "abandon ship!".
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SonGoku
Member
The part about Navi 10 that makes me doubt it will be in consoles is power consumption due to high clocks and the fact there is room to spare to fit a 64CUs on a 350mm2 APU on 7nm. With the possibility of Navi 10 not being pure RDNA makes it further unlikely to land on consoles.
Pricing on discrete cards does not determine which GPU consoles get, die size does and they have their own configuration that won't necessarily match any one discrete card.
Pricing on discrete cards does not determine which GPU consoles get, die size does and they have their own configuration that won't necessarily match any one discrete card.
ethomaz
Banned
I agree with you but that AdovedTV leaks is fakeI think DF using a 1080 as comparison is valid. What Polaris 10 was in relation to the R9 390/390X is similar to what Navi 10 is to the Vega 56/64. Navi 10 occupies the same "TDP" tier as RX 480/580 while performing like a Vega 56/64.
When Polaris 10 released AMD was aiming hard at the $250 150W single 6-pin pci-e target. AMD used a blower fan setup and it was compact-ish dual slot. It ended up hot and hungry I'm glad I waited for the 8-pin triple fan AIB(AIBs were $269+). I don't know if AMD will have their own reference cards, but looking at Asrock's designs, Sapphire rep leak, and leaked pcb there's 2x8-pin power connectors, beefy triple fan hsf, beefy VRM setup, and alleged $399(Pro)/$499(XT) price points.
When the mining surge pushed the price of RX 480 8GB from $250 in 2016 to upwards of $400 over the next 2yrs Nvidia was perfectly happy to make $350-500 the new mid-range. All this is just to say that looking at everything we know and the Sapphire rep comments it seems AMD is positioning these cards as RTX 2060 and RTX 2070 competitors and will price accordingly. Because of AdoredTV I think everybody was expecting cheap and power efficient instead of what 7nm Navi 10 actually ended up being.
Expectations created by Adored leaks:
That RX 3080 Navi 10 XT is listed at 150W/$250...just like RX 480 release. Reality is that Navi 10 XT is more like 220W/$499. Adored probably speculated about most of this data using ideal AMD pr numbers and the jump from 28nm to 14nm. When Computex neared he probably got wind of reality from his sources and was like "abandon ship!".
Navi 10 will power up two cards... probably RX 5070 and RX 5080 and neither will have more performance than Vega 64.
There is no confirmed price but the Sapphire leaks put it will higher than that table too.
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CrustyBritches
Gold Member
I'd disagree with this. Peak power consumption, or power cap, and BoM will determine what a console can get. Navi 10 will have "quiet/lower power" bios and "boost" bios modes. We'll be able to tweak on the cards and see perf/watt and how it scales at different core and memory clocks.
On a console you get ~155W at $399 BoM and ~175W at $499. Total system consumption under 180W peak. Take 180W and compare that to Navi 10 perf/watt spectrum and consider 8-16GB additional GDDR6, possible DDR4, 8c/16t CPU, memory controllers, fast SSD, etc. Then consider you aren't getting 3-fan and beefy heatsink like Navi desktop and you're power capped unlike desktop. Wouldn't surprise me if Navi 10 XT pulls ~230W average gaming power consumption on boost bios and higher with max OC and/or liquid cooling. Compared to 150W power cap for GPU on console.
That's why I bet you a Navi 10 from this year will outperform consoles, and you wouldn't take the bet. Then I switch to RTX 2060/GTX 1080/Vega and you accept, but it's the same thing in my mind. Digital Foundry seems to look at it that way too.
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SonGoku
Member
You misunderstand me, die size determines the price of the APU
Power consumption and cooling determines how high it can be clocked
More CUs clocked lower will net better perf/watt simple as that.
The X profit from day one and its cooling solution is capable to handle a 200W chip
DF also seems to think 8TF
We did the bet didn't we?
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CrustyBritches
Gold Member
How about less CUs clocked lower? Could be simple as that.
We didn't really do the bet. The bet was supposed to be that PS5 will be weaker than desktop Navi 10, but you wouldn't bite. Yet, you believe it will be more powerful and say as much, but you don't take the bet...?
LordOfChaos
Member
Most Tantalizing Rumors About The PS5
The current gaming generation is winding down, which means it’s time for the next war for console supremacy to begin. Here are all the hottest leaks, rumors, and tidbits we’ve heard about Sony’s next-gen PS5.
ogn.theonion.com
SonGoku
Member
Then you could get more CUs clocked even lower lol
More CUs always wins as long as it is within APU size limits
But you just said RTX 2060/GTX 1080/Vega is the same. I took that bet
The other bet was that the GPU will be 56CU minimum
ethomaz
Banned
That was funny... thanks to share.Most Tantalizing Rumors About The PS5
The current gaming generation is winding down, which means it’s time for the next war for console supremacy to begin. Here are all the hottest leaks, rumors, and tidbits we’ve heard about Sony’s next-gen PS5.
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CrustyBritches
Gold Member
I tend to agree with DF, I don't think that works to the extent you think it does, but we've been over that.
The point about the bet is that on one hand you profess PS5 will be faster than Navi 10, but you don't take the bet.
Disregarding the bet, do you think PS5 will have superior performance to these Navi 10 cards?
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shark sandwich
tenuously links anime, pedophile and incels
My thoughts exactly.
We just found out about Navi 10 with 225W TDP. And now people in this thread are still hoping for a PS5 INCLUDING a GPU more powerful than Navi 10, 8-core Zen 2 CPU, 11-12 GDDR6 chips, etc with total system power around 180W, in the $399-$499 range.
Seems extremely, extremely, optimistic. Maybe not impossible but highly unlikely IMO.
Fake
Member
What?
SonGoku
Member
Hard to say, need to know two factors first
- If Navi 10 is fake RDNA
- How much past the perf/watt sweetspot is AMD pushing these cards, the AIB cooler leaks look massive which makes me think AMD will promote OC.
What im certain is PS5's GPU will be bigger.
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Imtjnotu
Member
WRAP IT UP FOLKS. WE'RE DONE HEREJust like your prophetic dream
edit: 72CUs at 1400Mhz=12.9TF
Coincidence? I think not.
TLZ
Banned
Was there a leak mentioning 12.9tf? I know Benji mentioned near 13tf, but I've no idea how reliable he is.Just like your prophetic dream
edit: 72CUs at 1400Mhz=12.9TF
Coincidence? I think not.
CyberPanda
Banned
He asked to be banned from reset yesterday or the day before that. I don’t remember the exact date.Yeah Benjii tweeted 12.9TF
Im just having fun btw, in case there was any doubt, but who knows what could happen
Fake
Member
On twitter he use other excuses for his permaban, but in the end I guess was because the leak wars who get his take.
CyberPanda
Banned
CyberPanda
Banned
Unfortunately, everything is expensive in Brazil.
Fake
Member
The basic Xbox its not that expensive. Require you to make a search for the best price, but still I think is less expensive than DS4.
SonGoku
Member
I would too if i was him lol
Do you live far from Foz do Iguacu/Ciudad Del Este? electronics are cheap over there "black market"
TLZ
Banned
If it's this tight I'd wager they're revealing at E3.
luca_29_bg
Member
Benjii still post on resetera and in the topic about ps5 and next xbox he said that he continue to hear higher teraflops for ps5, much higher than 8. Indeed he asked in the thread why people was too obsessed with this 8 tf and from where this number it jumped out!
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