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[Steve.1981]

...So if Scotland leaves, do you guys still consider yourself a part of the Commonwealth ala Canada, Australia, India, Jamaica and New Zealand or are y'all gonna tell us all to go fuck ourselves as well?...

I think you're joking, but just in case you're not, the current push for Scottish independence is not about us telling anybody to go fuck themselves. Not even England. The younger generations of voters, especially, don't look at it that way.

 

[Kase]

The No campaign for the Scottish referendum argued that leaving the Union would force an independent Scotland into years of renegotiating their way back into the EU, which might possibly have wooed many voters to keep the status quo. Now that the opposite of has happened and it is evidently enough of a mandate for a second independence referendum. Westminster bartered and argued that the UK would continually provide them with single access via the EU. Now that the UK has decide to break off from the EU and Scotland will not have its market access as promised, there is no arguing that is only fair that Scotland has their second referendum.

 

[Zoc]

No chance of Scotland gaining favorable terms into the Euro with Spain and the Catalonia issue unresolved.

Let's see what happens after Catalonia votes to stay in Spain and then Spain votes to leave the EU (Spexit? Spaxit?)

 

[weekev]

The thing is anyone I know.who voted no, voted that way because.they wanted to keep the status.quo. Now that the status quo is no longer here anyway every single person I have spoken to who voted no (7 or 8 FWIW) would change.to a yes.

I realise this evidence is anecdotal but I would hazard a guess that the number of people in this.famp would be more than the 2.5% it would take to swing the vote to a yes.

The question is if we can get it done and above board before the Brexit. Would PM Johnson allow it?

 

[MassiveNights]

A couple of interesting developments on this.

-----

Well this is pretty huge. Kezia Dugdale says Scottish Labour "will consider all options" going forward ie support for independence. Jings!

https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/746718707297173505

Scottish Labour Deputy Leader:

Tories Brexit shambles puts jobs at risk, divides regions, nations and communities @scottishlabour will put the interests of Scotland first

https://twitter.com/Alex_RowleyMSP/status/746735132330065920

-----

If Scottish Labour allow an open vote/open campaign within their ranks in another independence referendum then it's game over for the union.

 

[moojito]

If Scottish Labour allow an open vote/open campaign within their ranks in another independence referendum then it's game over for the union.

It's pretty clear what voters want to hear right now, so it's pretty easy to say whatever needs to be said to get votes.
Then once in, do whatever you were going to anyway.

 

[Khaz]

Let's see what happens after Catalonia votes to stay in Spain and then Spain votes to leave the EU (Spexit? Spaxit?)

Spainful

The question is if we can get it done and above board before the Brexit. Would PM Johnson allow it?

Cameron is still in until October. Can it be set up that quickly? (Would he allow it?)

Again, if quick enough, you would have a country separated in two, with one half wishing to leave, the other to stay. As per the EU treaties, any territory seceding would be automatically outside the Union. England and Wales secede, Scotland stays in. No more Article 50 for England or admission hurdles for Scotland, everybody is happy.

 

[MassiveNights]

As an outsider looking in, this entire situation has been so fascinating to follow.

So if Scotland leaves, do you guys still consider yourself a part of the Commonwealth ala Canada, Australia, India, Jamaica and New Zealand or are y'all gonna tell us all to go fuck ourselves as well? I can't imagine you'd still want to be associated with England in any way following the recent Brexit debacle.

I believe the official stance of Yes campaigners last time was to stay in the Commonwealth and recognise the Queen as our monarch just like the rest.

 

[MassiveNights]

It's pretty clear what voters want to hear right now, so it's pretty easy to say whatever needs to be said to get votes.
Then once in, do whatever you were going to anyway.

The next Scottish election isn't for 5 years though, we've already voted.

Scottish Labour were trounced, mainly because of their stance in the last independence referendum.

 

[shoreu]

Scotland is trying to break away from England so it can stay in the EU. Essentially Scotland leaving the UK.

Scotland voted to stay in the EU, but as England is a larger part of the UK its vote counts heavier. So we have to leave against what our country as an individual entity within the UK voted.

It's kinda sad to see the Uk Fall apart like this i Always thought Europe's Unity and Maturity about borders was cool.

 

[Steve.1981]

Have the Labour Party now learned the lesson about what the Scottish people think of a political party that openly, shamelessly sides with the Tories to tell us what we can and can't do?

That's a game changer.

 

[xandaca]

Scotland going it alone would seem an almighty risk given current oil prices (and the dwindling supply of North Sea oil to begin with) and the fact that not only is their acceptance into the EU far from guaranteed, but they'd almost certainly get a far worse deal than the UK ought to be able to negotiate to get into the EEA given how small the Scottish economy is. Yes, the Scots would have greater influence as a full member, but it'd be decidedly limited (they won't be able to stand up to France and Germany) and almost certainly involve adopting the Euro. I understand why the Scots would want out of the union right now, but even their best case scenario frankly doesn't seem all that great. At the very least they should wait and see how Britain's exit negotiations pan out, even if it takes several years - which it should, because Britain would be fools to invoke Article 50 until they absolutely have to.

 

[Audioboxer]

Scotland going it alone would seem an almighty risk given current oil prices (and the dwindling supply of North Sea oil to begin with) and the fact that not only is their acceptance into the EU far from guaranteed, but they'd almost certainly get a far worse deal than the UK ought to be able to negotiate to get into the EEA given how small the Scottish economy is. Yes, the Scots would have greater influence as a full member, but it'd be decidedly limited (they won't be able to stand up to France and Germany) and almost certainly involve adopting the Euro. I understand why the Scots would want out of the union right now, but even their best case scenario frankly doesn't seem all that great. At the very least they should wait and see how Britain's exit negotiations pan out, even if it takes several years - which it should, because Britain would be fools to invoke Article 50 until they absolutely have to.

The same risk the UK has just decided to take leaving the EU and screaming about independence when interviewed on TV?

Scotland wants some of that independence England are clamouring for without England turning around as usual and going "Shhh Scotland, independence is risky".

We want to stay in the EU. Leaving the Union is the only option to even give that a chance.

It's that kind of blasé attitude that will only make the next Better Together campaign fall flat on its face. The whole "Scotland you can't do what you want, you need us". We stuck with you last time and within years of you saying we needed you to stay in the EU, you take us out of the EU...

I understand lots of English are unhappy at their fellow English for taking them out of the EU... We just have to say it how it is though. England, and Wales, are taking Scotland out of the EU when we wanted to stay.

 

[MassiveNights]

Quoting this from the other thread because it's relevant.

There's a suggestion that any exit agreement with the EU could require consent from the Scottish Parliament.

https://twitter.com/PeteWishart/status/746741523522400256

 

[IdreamofHIME]

As an outsider looking in, this entire situation has been so fascinating to follow.

So if Scotland leaves, do you guys still consider yourself a part of the Commonwealth ala Canada, Australia, India, Jamaica and New Zealand or are y'all gonna tell us all to go fuck ourselves as well? I can't imagine you'd still want to be associated with England in any way following the recent Brexit debacle.

The Queen would still be head of state, no one's being told to go fuck themselves...unlike the Brexit vote .

 

[chancellor]

Another independence referendum just is not a fair thing to do right now.

We do not know what kind of deal the UK is going to have with the EU. We don't know what kind of EU/Euro we will be rejoining and if it would be worth doing. We do not know if we would get to stay/rejoin the EU. We do not know if we would have to have border /visa travel between us and the rest of the UK if we end up joining the EU.

We should at least be seeing how Brexit pans out for a while before deciding to have another referendum because at least some of the above questions would get answered. It would not be fair to do a referendum when the consequences would be shrouded in mystery and could be found out by waiting a while. Doing a referendum now to "protect our position" is just a way to exploit a lot of anger as far as I see it. People voted no for numerous reasons two years ago and while I might vote yes in a couple years I certainly won't be any time soon.

 

[KingSnake]

Another independence referendum just is not a fair thing to do right now.

We do not know what kind of deal the UK is going to have with the EU. We don't know what kind of EU/Euro we will be rejoining and if it would be worth doing. We do not know if we would get to stay/rejoin the EU. We do not know if we would have to have border /visa travel between us and the rest of the UK if we end up joining the EU.

We should at least be seeing how Brexit pans out for a while before deciding to have another referendum because at least some of the above questions would get answered. It would not be fair to do a referendum when the consequences would be shrouded in mystery and could be found out by waiting a while. Doing a referendum now to "protect our position" is just a way to exploit a lot of anger as far as I see it. People voted no for numerous reasons two years ago and while I might vote yes in a couple years I certainly won't be any time soon.

Why would Scotland wait for something it doesn't have any stake in? Wait for Westminster to decide their fate once again? That turned up so well last time.

Better to get back to EU as soon as possible and hope to attract some of the companies that will run out of England. You don't get too many opportunities like this.

 

[Audioboxer]

Why would Scotland wait for something it doesn't have any stake in? Wait for Westminster to decide their fate once again? That turned up so well last time.

Better to get back to EU as soon as possible and hope to attract some of the companies that will run out of England. You don't get too many opportunities like this.

"Please wait, you're the ugly, younger, red headed/ginger brother country and it would be disastrous if you somehow came out of this mess better off than us!"

 

[titiklabingapat]

Who knew that the thing that destroyed the once mighty British empire...were themselves. Not grand armies by Napoleon, Hitler or Stalin but themselves.

I wonder if what ends up happening is the dissolution of the UK and then parts of it getting reabsorbed back into the EU as weaker units, further weakening isle influence on the continent. A reunited Ireland will probably join back in (if it happens but doubt it) and an independent Scotland definitely will, leaving England as the only outlier.

 

[gollumsluvslave]

I really wonder whether the 2014 referendum would not have been much closer if Sturgeon as opposed to slimy Salmond had been the main player.

I know TONs of folk that were soured on Salmond and thought he was high on his own cool aid, but since she took over Sturgeon has been outstanding.

Whilst I had other reasons for voting NO in 2014, I can't deny I was bias against Salmond.

Sturgeon doesn't seem to have any of that bad will or scepticism.

 

[KingSnake]

Sturgeon is the only UK politician that had a decent position after referendum. Her speech yesterday was really good and the way she is organising everything (with advisors team and preliminary discussions with EU) before moving forward seems wise.

 

[Kathian]

Sturgeon is the only UK politician that had a decent position after referendum. Her speech yesterday was really good and the way she is organising everything (with advisors team and preliminary discussions with EU) before moving forward seems wise.

At least she's doing something.

 

[Cromwell]

Another independence referendum just is not a fair thing to do right now.

We do not know what kind of deal the UK is going to have with the EU. We don't know what kind of EU/Euro we will be rejoining and if it would be worth doing. We do not know if we would get to stay/rejoin the EU. We do not know if we would have to have border /visa travel between us and the rest of the UK if we end up joining the EU.

We should at least be seeing how Brexit pans out for a while before deciding to have another referendum because at least some of the above questions would get answered. It would not be fair to do a referendum when the consequences would be shrouded in mystery and could be found out by waiting a while. Doing a referendum now to "protect our position" is just a way to exploit a lot of anger as far as I see it. People voted no for numerous reasons two years ago and while I might vote yes in a couple years I certainly won't be any time soon.

Scotland has no fucking reason whatsoever to be "fair" to the U.K. They only joined to be a part of the EU and now the U.K. has forcefully ripped that from them. The independence referendum should be held as soon as humanly possible to get the best deal from the EU, the longer they wait the worse it gets. Also, the best outlook any economist has regarding the U.K. now is "uhhh maybe things might end up only slightly worse than they were in the EU".

 

[Ovek]

God speed Scotland get out of this shit hole as fast as you can.

 

[Pankratous]

Sturgeon is the only UK politician that had a decent position after referendum. Her speech yesterday was really good and the way she is organising everything (with advisors team and preliminary discussions with EU) before moving forward seems wise.

Well, she is by far the best politician the UK (at least, Scotland) has seen in an extremely long time. Also, she gives decent hugs. Can testify.

 

[Omikaru]

Quoting this from the other thread because it's relevant.

Very relevant. Could, in theory, Scotland could use this as a bargaining chip against any Westminster Government that refuses to give them a referendum?

 

[cyberheater]

So from the news. It looks like Scotland can not negotiate a deal with Brussels before the UK leaves the EU.

This means that Scotland would have to negotiate to become a member state of the EU and be forced to adopt the Euro.

Fun times.

 

[Hasney]

Very relevant. Could, in theory, Scotland could use this as a bargaining chip against any Westminster Government that refuses to give them a referendum?

Yes, although as it's becoming slightly apparent that some people who campaigned for Leave never really wanted to leave, it could also be used by the government to give them a get out of jail card. Keep the UK in the EU and say that Scotland wouldn't pass it.

 

[Makoto-Yuki]

i know she said they'd try hold the 2nd referendum before the UK officially leaves the EU but i think 2 years is too soon. i voted yes in 2014 and will vote yes again but i'm worried that if we have another referendum too soon then we will risk another No vote. we need to make sure that there is consistent support for a yes vote. If we vote No again then that's it. We'll become a laughing stock. 2 independence referendums within the space of 4 years and 2 votes for no. i will of course accept whatever side wins like i did in 2014 but any hope of scottish independence will be gone for a long time. we might be waiting decades before the next chance and we honestly need to get out of the UK as soon as possible.

 

[Hasney]

i know she said they'd try hold the 2nd referendum before the UK officially leaves the EU but i think 2 years is too soon. i voted yes in 2014 and will vote yes again but i'm worried that if we have another referendum too soon then we will risk another No vote. we need to make sure that there is consistent support for a yes vote. If we vote No again then that's it. We'll become a laughing stock. 2 independence referendums within the space of 4 years and 2 votes for no. i will of course accept whatever side wins like i did in 2014 but any hope of scottish independence will be gone for a long time. we might be waiting decades before the next chance and we honestly need to get out of the UK as soon as possible.

While I would agree on normal circumstances, I would think the sooner the better with how hurtful the referendum has been. Don't let people cool down.

Obviously, the laughing stock thing is a bit different as I'm an Englishman looking at the outside but let's be real here, as part of the UK, you're part of a laughing stock anyway.

Nicola Sturgeon on Andrew Marr now.

 

[Bits N Pieces]

While I would agree on normal circumstances, I would think the sooner the better with how hurtful the referendum has been. Don't let people cool down.

Obviously, the laughing stock thing is a bit different as I'm an Englishman looking at the outside but let's be real here, as part of the UK, you're part of a laughing stock anyway.

Nicola Sturgeon on Andrew Marr now.

I'm out and about right now, what's she saying?

Also, if Scotland go for independence that would make us the only English speaking nation in the EU apart from Ireland. Plenty of opportunities could come from that in the different sectors of trade and industry.

England and Wales are strengthening our position. Thanks neighbours.

 

[Cromwell]

I'm out and about right now, what's she saying?

Also, if Scotland go for independence that would make us the only English speaking nation in the EU apart from Ireland. Plenty of opportunities could come from that in the different sectors of trade and industry.

England and Wales are strengthening our position. Thanks neighbours.

She reaffirmed her complete dedication for independence and rejoining the EU. Incase anyone had any doubts Scotland is looking to get the fuck out as soon as humanly possible, she eliminated those.

 

[Hasney]

I'm out and about right now, what's she saying?

Also, if Scotland go for independence that would make us the only English speaking nation in the EU apart from Ireland. Plenty of opportunities could come from that in the different sectors of trade and industry.

England and Wales are strengthening our position. Thanks neighbours.

Nothing too major, just that she won't be pushed into having a stance on things like a full border with England, being allowed to stay in the EU rather than leaving and coming back or the Euro vs the Pound.

She is framing it as a vote to stay in the EU rather than leave the UK.

 

[Bits N Pieces]

Thanks dudes, she's on the ball is Sturgeon and I think she's going to play a blinder over the coming months.

I genuinely do feel for all of you south of the border though, this is going to be such a mess.

 

[Kadayi]

Scotland has no fucking reason whatsoever to be "fair" to the U.K. They only joined to be a part of the EU and now the U.K. has forcefully ripped that from them. The independence referendum should be held as soon as humanly possible to get the best deal from the EU, the longer they wait the worse it gets. Also, the best outlook any economist has regarding the U.K. now is "uhhh maybe things might end up only slightly worse than they were in the EU".

Your way of framing everything through the mirror of political entities as petulant children was amusing at first, but increasingly it's become a rather tragic case of gross anthropomorphization with all this emotive talk.

It's a grave mistake to presume that just because bureaucratic entities are composed of people, they necessarily act like them on an individual basis.

As leader Sturgeon can say what she wants, whether any of it translates into a tangible reality is another matter entirely.

This isn't kids in the playground, having a fallout. There's absolutely no certainty that the EU would necessarily welcome an independent Scotland either with open arms of straight away, so to bank on it as a matter of course is foolhardy in the extreme.

 

[gollumsluvslave]

Quoting this from the other thread because it's relevant.

https://twitter.com/PeteWishart/stat...41523522400256

Needs to be re-quoted.

You can bet that Sturgeon will be exhausting all avenuse pushing this directly with the EU and I suspect that Juncker & co will reciprocate to put the breaks on other countries holding referendums.

However, it is not a clear position,as a rebuttal is well argued here:-
https://waitingfortax.com/2016/06/25/can-the-scottish-parliament-block-brexit/

The problem with the argument, at least as I see it, is the so-called proviso. The Sewel convention has now been enacted in section 28(8) of the Scotland Act 1998. You can see it here but what it says in context is:

(7) This section does not affect the power of the Parliament of the United Kingdom to make laws for Scotland.

(8) But it is recognised that the Parliament of the United Kingdom will not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters without the consent of the Scottish Parliament.

You remember that proviso I mentioned? The Westminster Parliament retained a residual right to legislate without the consent of the Scottish Parliament in non-normal circumstances.

And if a decision in a UK-wide referendum to depart from the European Union is not a non-normal circumstance I don’t know what is.

I forsee a legal and constitutional quagmire ahead.

 

[Zelias]

Thanks dudes, she's on the ball is Sturgeon and I think she's going to play a blinder over the coming months.

I genuinely do feel for all of you south of the border though, this is going to be such a mess.

Yep. Don't blame Scots at all for wanting to get out. Best of luck to you!

 

[AHA-Lambda]

breaking

Nicola Sturgeon says MSPs at Holyrood could veto Brexit

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36633244

 

[Hasney]

Thanks dudes, she's on the ball is Sturgeon and I think she's going to play a blinder over the coming months.

I genuinely do feel for all of you south of the border though, this is going to be such a mess.

Yep. Don't blame Scots at all for wanting to get out. Best of luck to you!

Totally, I would have been disappointed if the first vote had come in for an independant Scotland, but now, I want to somehow make Leeds a part of Scotland!

You guys do you while we go fuck ourselves. Hope it turns out great for you.

breaking



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36633244

Now that's looking out for the people she represents.

 

[Audioboxer]

Sturgeon clip on Andrew Marr this morning

What if UK PM refused to allow another Scottish referendum? BBC News

“It’s not acceptable, and I would caution any future PM against putting themselves in that position” Nicola Sturgeon tells Andrew Marr.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qT6BJ4RS1BM

Also this clip from this morning is brutal

Scotland's First Minister describes events in Westminster as "utter chaos, shambolic and frankly disgraceful" on Murnaghan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4JAkGR47kM

(Don't read the YT comments though)

 

[Madness]

breaking

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36633244

Adam Tomkins who is a Conservative MSP for Glasgow and a professor just said it isn't true and that she misspoke. Holyrood can only withhold consent not block. So they can withhold their consent to UK leaving the EU but they cannot block the UK PM from invoking article 50 etc.

 

[CCS]

breaking



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36633244

New thread worthy?

 

[kharma45]

Adam Tomkins who is a Conservative MSP for Glasgow and a professor just said it isn't true and that she misspoke. Holyrood can only withhold consent not block. So they can withhold their consent to UK leaving the EU but they cannot block the UK PM from invoking article 50 etc.

It's the same for NI

Relevant link https://constitution-unit.com/2016/...on-statutes-were-left-unchanged-after-brexit/

 

[*Splinter]

I genuinely do feel for all of you south of the border though, this is going to be such a mess.

Just give us a chance to emigrate before you close that border

 

[Zelias]

Totally, I would have been disappointed if the first vote had come in for an independant Scotland, but now, I want to somehow make Leeds a part of Scotland!

You guys do you while we go fuck ourselves. Hope it turns out great for you.

I'd like to make Sheffield a part of Scotland too, but unfortunately we narrowly voted to Leave anyway

 

[AHA-Lambda]

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-scotland-germany-idUKKCN0ZC0R1

Scotland welcome to join EU, Merkel ally says

An independent Scotland would be welcome to join the European Union, a senior German lawmaker and ally of Chancellor Angela Merkel has said after Britain's vote to leave the bloc.

"The EU will still consist of 28 member states, as I expect a new independence referendum in Scotland, which will then be successful," said Gunther Krichbaum, a member of Merkel's conservatives and chairman of the European affairs committee in parliament.

"We should respond quickly to an application for admission from the EU-friendly country," he told the Welt am Sonntag newspaper.

 

[Par Score]

This is a complete fucking shambles, and I can only wish Scotland the best of luck in either blocking it or getting the hell away from the tyre fire that the rest of the UK is descending into.

 

[Stinkles]

Your way of framing everything through the mirror of political entities as petulant children was amusing at first, but increasingly it's become a rather tragic case of gross anthropomorphization with all this emotive talk.

It's a grave mistake to presume that just because bureaucratic entities are composed of people, they necessarily act like them on an individual basis.

As leader Sturgeon can say what she wants, whether any of it translates into a tangible reality is another matter entirely.

This isn't kids in the playground, having a fallout. There's absolutely no certainty that the EU would necessarily welcome an independent Scotland either with open arms of straight away, so to bank on it as a matter of course is foolhardy in the extreme.

They're not banking on it or making assumptions. In fact they're having grown up discussions with the EU about it right now.

 

[darkwing]

just crazy, turns out only Scotland has a plan after Brexit

 

[Palette Swap]

They're not banking on it or making assumptions. In fact they're having grown up discussions with the EU about it right now.

It's so nice to see people doing the job they were elected to do and looking out for the best interests of their voters.

just crazy, turns out only Scotland has a plan after Brexit

Exactly.