Support NeoGAF

[LordOfChaos]

God forbid you have to develop for a 2013 hardware level than a 2006++ one

 

[SmokedMeat]

Obviously so. And this is coming from Nintendo who isn’t about massive budget cinematic games.

The real next gen will be so much worse.

 

[poppabk]

"And that is why first party games will be priced at $80 for the Switch 2"

 

[Trilobit]

Nintendo should just create a Cel-Shade division and make gorgeous, but not as technically demanding fun games. Buy the rights to Sly Cooper and make Wind Waker-style Zeldas.

 

[UltimaKilo]

There’s a few smaller studios that could help Nintendo’s existing studios churn out content and even create original content as well. While that’s a good strategy (Mistwalker), a return to 2nd party studios has to be considered, along with Nintendo creating a few new studios internally

 

[squidilix]

oof, he can't say "more expensive"

 

[Švejk]

Racking up the excuses to catch up on the $70 a pop train.

 

[Rusty Shackelford]

Is that Nintendo speak that they've been bought by MS?

 

[lh032]

i wonder what will happen to the gaming industry in the future, dev cost is not going to stop, its just a matter of time

 

[Kokoloko85]

So is this the real reason for Switch 2 delay? Unforeseen challenges of modern development like when they fumbled from Wii to Wii U and didn't realize how much they would need to update all their tools and learn new things in order to make a HD game? lol

Lol. Whatever the case it will be interesting to see how Nintendo handles next gen game development and releases.
They dont have as many ports/remasters from GC, Wii, Wii U and developing games will be at least harder than developing games for Wii U/Switch

 

[Astral Dog]

can't wait to see what Nintendo and its partners have been cooking for next generation modern hardware just imagine what kind of delicacies they will show us

 

[Heimdall_Xtreme]

It's time to implement an achievement system on the new Nintendo console

 

[jroc74]

Obviously so. And this is coming from Nintendo who isn’t about massive budget cinematic games.

The real next gen will be so much worse.

That Nintendo is now also talking about this is something.

 

[Shut0wen]

No shit, we had to wait 6 years for Zelda DLC

Honestly believe the next zelda is 3 years or less away, there no way in hell it took them 6 years to make totk, even with all the additional content that wasnt in botw

 

[Big Baller]

Honestly believe the next zelda is 3 years or less away, there no way in hell it took them 6 years to make totk, even with all the additional content that wasnt in botw

Yeah, were getting BOTW remastered for Switch 2

 

[Shut0wen]

Nintendo has finally reached with the Switch 2 what game developers have been facing since 2013

But I doubt that Nintendo will use Switch 2 power to make everything more detailed and etc. We will have stuff like TotK but running at 1440p/60.

They dont have to go for realistic graphics and etc. They will use the horse power for better IQ and framerates, I bet.

Tbf alot of developers should go with the artistic style nintendo chooses, they literally stand the test of time while games like uncharted, gears of war all look like dog shit

 

[Kataploom]

Nintendo mad about their profits as they might have to start developing games on hardware that isn't ancient mobile tech.

God forbid you have to develop for a 2013 hardware level than a 2006++ one

Do you really think making assets for a Switch exclusive game is any different than for PS5? Because it's same exact thing, the only difference is Nintendo art style and you see them at lower resolution output, but the input is the same, see for example Games like Metroid Prime Remaster in 4K on an emulator, it's very evident how that's a 8th gen game.

Nintendo have been there for a while now, production pipeline won't change, Furukawa probably means game scope for some important franchises like Zelda, 3D Mario, Mario Kart.

 

[Dacvak]

Yeah, were getting BOTW remastered for Switch 2

It sure would be a nice gift from Nintendo if they just updated BotW to run at 60fps and full 1080p, and not charged us for a remaster.

 

[Dacvak]

Do you really think making assets for a Switch exclusive game is any different than for PS5?

I do, without question, believe that making assets for AAA Switch games is far less expensive than AAA PS5 games. However, I don’t think that tells the whole story. Nintendo is pretty notorious for letting development cook for a long time to achieve as much polish as possible, and time = money.

I have no doubt that the physics system in TotK, alone, was an astronomical amount of dev cost that probably did compare to PS5 development. Then again, I suspect that development at Nintendo is far more organized and streamlined than most studios out there, since Nintendo teams don’t have nearly as much staff turnover as western devs. I’m sure that saves a lot of money in the long run.

I guess my whole point is I actually have no idea and everyone should just ignore me.

 

[Dr. Claus]

Am playing Metroid Dread right now.

It feels a bit more complex and lengthy than it needs to be.

One of the reason why Super Metroid is still the GOAT.

Hopefully Nintendo will understand this as well.

You can 100% Metroid Dread in under 2 hours without the use of glitches.
Less than an hour if you don't go for 100%.

Its isn't even all that complex. Just requires a bit more attention to handle the faster paced battles and good reflexes for parry.

I really dislike that this sentiment about prolonged game development seems to be echoed throughout most of the AAA industry. Something went wrong along the way if they've collectively decided this is the most apt strategy.

At least we got smaller dev houses out there who diverge from that direction.

Prolonged development can mean anything between 6 extra months to multiple years longer on a project. This is pretty normal when you take into consideration that models need to be more detailed, so more time has to be spent on the textures, highly detailed models, and larger, more complex worlds. The amount of interactivity in Tears of hte Kingdom for example is higher than any previous game from, arguably, anyone else in the AAA industry.

As tools get easier, AI gets utilized, I can see this being less of an issue. have an AI take the texture artwork and fill in blanks for example, or change facial animations to better fit other languages, or just do the voice work entirely.

 

[Kataploom]

I do, without question, believe that making assets for AAA Switch games is far less expensive than AAA PS5 games. However, I don’t think that tells the whole story. Nintendo is pretty notorious for letting development cook for a long time to achieve as much polish as possible, and time = money.

I have no doubt that the physics system in TotK, alone, was an astronomical amount of dev cost that probably did compare to PS5 development. Then again, I suspect that development at Nintendo is far more organized and streamlined than most studios out there, since Nintendo teams don’t have nearly as much staff turnover as western devs. I’m sure that saves a lot of money in the long run.

I guess my whole point is I actually have no idea and everyone should just ignore me.

Nah, the way both are created is exactly the same, they just are shown in a lower output resolution because they run in the Switch, but the way you create 3D assets, required textures, animations, etc. Is exactly the same, where you can see a difference is in the art style, that could demand more or less to the artist creating a specific graphic assets, but the production pipeline is the exact same whether you do a 3D model for one or the other.

 

[OuterLimits]

Ngl, I'd be interested in NIS' take on a Fire Emblem game.

I would prefer they just bring back the Tecmo Koei team that largely did Three Houses.

 

[Hudo]

I would prefer they just bring back the Tecmo Koei team that largely did Three Houses.

Who helped out with Engage? Bandai Namco?

 

[semiconscious]

“He also stated that he believes that further lengthening, complexity, and sophistication of game development is inevitable in the future, and that M&A is one possible means to address this, but added, "First of all, we would like to develop human resources who understand Nintendo’s brand well within the company and who will be responsible for Nintendo’s future development, along with developers who have built our brand over the years. However, the company’s basic policy is to “first of all, understand the Nintendo brand well within the company, and develop human resources who will be responsible for the future development of Nintendo, together with developers who have built the brand over the years.”

ai generated translation/post?...

 

[IAmRei]

I do, without question, believe that making assets for AAA Switch games is far less expensive than AAA PS5 games. However, I don’t think that tells the whole story. Nintendo is pretty notorious for letting development cook for a long time to achieve as much polish as possible, and time = money.

I have no doubt that the physics system in TotK, alone, was an astronomical amount of dev cost that probably did compare to PS5 development. Then again, I suspect that development at Nintendo is far more organized and streamlined than most studios out there, since Nintendo teams don’t have nearly as much staff turnover as western devs. I’m sure that saves a lot of money in the long run.

I guess my whole point is I actually have no idea and everyone should just ignore me.

I am gamdev, though small, i can approve the cost and time to create of physic is always more. Especially if its emulate real world.

 

[Hudo]

since Nintendo teams don’t have nearly as much staff turnover as western devs.

which also helps cultivating and expanding institutional knowledge. That's a long-term game but usually pays of really well. Which can be seen in the overall quality of first-party Nintendo games. Also makes it easier to develop and maintain your own in-house tech stack.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I am gamdev, though small, i can approve the cost and time to create of physic is always more. Especially if its emulate real world.

I'd say it depends on the type of physics and the tools being used. The physics system's from TotK already reuses a lot of BotW and most of what they added were very specific properties to let players interact with them more proemintenly.

I doubt they spend too much time developing the new systems themselves, and instead spend a lot of it tweaking and playtesting the dugeons, map, quests, etc; to make sure everything on the game had a good flow and couldn't be broken or easily abused by the player.

 

[bender]

Nintendo are just catching up to the rest of the world who develop for more powerful consoles/PCs

It's part of the reason staying behind the technology race is smart and what people fail to realize when they bemoan Nintendo's "weak" hardware.

 

[IAmNotFromDelaware]

All these companies that have some kind of association with AI solutions, they keep telling us how they're going to manage to reduce or even get rid of all types of developers and white collar workers.

If this is all true, how is it possible that game development will become even more longer than it already is. Shouldn't their incredible AI solutions solve the issue?

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Feels like Nintendo has positioned themselves very well compared to the competition when it comes to this problem by being able to sell less powerful hardware and, in turn, produce cheaper games.

They're not immune to it.

Their Zelda games have become extremely complex and costly to develop.

 

[midnightAI]

It's part of the reason staying behind the technology race is smart and what people fail to realize when they bemoan Nintendo's "weak" hardware.

For Nintendo it works a treat due to the types of games enjoyed on that platform and what that platform is (it's a handheld). For a handheld I don't think they are that far behind really, certainly not when the Switch was first released.

 

[Hudo]

The physics system's from TotK already reuses a lot of BotW and most of what they added were very specific properties to let players interact with them more proemintenly.

I think in either one of the "ask the developer"-interviews or at the GDC talk they talked about that the way they handle physics in TotK differs greatly from how they did it in BotW, which also makes sense when you allow players to glue physics actors together and also allow for simulating torque and tension (which BotW couldn't do). They stated that they had to make everything a physics actor including the environment/world itself in order to make everything work. Seems like quite the effort to me.

 

[Woopah]

Now they are going to have to catch up in technology and therefore the games are going to be more expensive and complex to make. The positive side for them is that since Switch 2 has higher power capabilities, there will be many 3rd parties that will make Switch versions of games that were not previously released on their platform due to lack of power to make a port viable. .

My prediction is that First party developments will be reduced but in exchange the greater 3rd party support will compensate for the catalog..... at least until the next generation of hardware is released.

I mostly believe this too, though I don't think the decline in first party will be tooooo noticeable.

Ever since the move to HD, Nintendo has been a struggling a bit with game development. Not that the quality isn't there, but it does look like they are taking a ton of time for games that are technically much less complex than what other publishers have to provide on much more powerful hardware.

Wii U was where they suffered the most. They filled the first years of Switch with many ports from the Wii U, but now they have exhausted this solution and are once again facing the same problem : how to release a good enough stream of games ?

I am expecting first party releases on the new Switch to suffer the same way as on Wii U.

Nintendo stopped the Wii U ports years ago and have still managed to publish 1 game per month. Now that that are concentrating on 1 ecosystem instead of 2, 3 or 4, I don't see them having the same problems as the WIi U, even with longer dev times.

There’s a few smaller studios that could help Nintendo’s existing studios churn out content and even create original content as well. While that’s a good strategy (Mistwalker), a return to 2nd party studios has to be considered, along with Nintendo creating a few new studios internally

Nintendo has actually been doing that already for the last few years. They've started partnering with external developers they didn't work with before, like Eighting, Arc System Works and ArtePiazza.

Alongside the over 100 billion yen cash investment in first party, I think they should be fine.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I think in either one of the "ask the developer"-interviews or at the GDC talk they talked about that the way they handle physics in TotK differs greatly from how they did it in BotW, which also makes sense when you allow players to glue physics actors together and also allow for simulating torque and tension (which BotW couldn't do). They stated that they had to make everything a physics actor including the environment/world itself in order to make everything work. Seems like quite the effort to me.

I meant that a lot of the groundwork for a 3D physics engine was already in place, even if they had to modify or upgrade some things. I'm not saying it's easy in the dumbest sense of the word, but it isn't a particularly herculean effort for a team with an already functioning engine and familiarized with the code. Especially considering the physics in the game aren't particularly special and have been done before to much more intricate levels and complexity than what we see in TotK.

What is difficult however is throw a lot of different tools for the players to interact with the objects and terrain in a gigantic world with tons of verticality, while making sure these player won't be able to completely break the game with them, or turn it trivially boring.

That Ascend power that lets Link go through ceilings for example. Implementing it is easy. Making sure every single piece of interactable ceiling in the map isn't in a "critical" spot and fixing them accordingly? Not so much.

 

[Hudo]

I meant that a lot of the groundwork for a 3D physics engine was already in place, even if they had to modify or upgrade some things. I'm not saying it's easy in the dumbest sense of the word, but it isn't a particularly herculean effort for a team with an already functioning engine and familiarized with the code. Especially considering the physics in the game aren't particularly special and have been done before to much more intricate levels and complexity than what we see in TotK.

What is difficult however is throw a lot of different tools for the players to interact with the objects and terrain in a gigantic world with tons of verticality, while making sure these player won't be able to completely break the game with them, or turn it trivially boring.

That Ascend power that lets Link go through ceilings for example. Implementing it is easy. Making sure every single piece of interactable ceiling in the map isn't in a "critical" spot and fixing them accordingly? Not so much.

You also have to take into account the platform they're scheduling these physics interactions + the robustness of the implementation (which is what impresses me the most. My physics implementations aren't nearly as robust). Sure, they based their work off of Havoc (I bet it's quite heavily modified for TotK, tho). I still think a lot more work went into it than we think. Especially the recall power together with the physics engine is something I would've loved to see the code for.

The ascend power you mention was actually something they discussed as well. As you said, the implementation is easy, that's something anyone with some basic programming and linalg experience can do, but making it robust is quite something else. But obviously they use some leeway here, they mentioned that they will shove Link away a bit in order to make him come out above, etc. Which is the right way to go about it.

 

[vaibhavpisal]

You can 100% Metroid Dread in under 2 hours without the use of glitches.
Less than an hour if you don't go for 100%.

Its isn't even all that complex. Just requires a bit more attention to handle the faster paced battles and good reflexes for parry.

Are you a speed runner?

I am mostly nitpicking.

When I get lost, I have to squint my eyes and look in the map any area I may have not been to. Then run around in circles for a while.

In comparison, I had almost memorised map in Super Metroid. Could almost always guess where I needed to go once I got an upgrade.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

I would honestly be happy if Nintendo kept on making games that look pretty much like Switch games but at 4K60 or with some ray tracing effects.

 

[Švejk]

"And that is why first party games will be priced at $80 for the Switch 2"

This is absolutely where he's going with that... and Nintenyearolds will eat it up anyway and justify a long with him.

 

[chromhound]

They should have a conversation with Game Freak

 

[cireza]

When I get lost, I have to squint my eyes and look in the map any area I may have not been to. Then run around in circles for a while.

That's a Quality over Quantity issue.

Dread has a large world but places are not easily recognizable. Many places are same-ish, environnement art style being bland, and huge just for the sake of being huge. And this without offering a truly interconnected world, as you have to rely on trains and teleporters.

Dread is still a good game, but certainly not up there with the best of the 2D series.

 

[Guilty_AI]

You also have to take into account the platform they're scheduling these physics interactions + the robustness of the implementation (which is what impresses me the most. My physics implementations aren't nearly as robust). Sure, they based their work off of Havoc (I bet it's quite heavily modified for TotK, tho). I still think a lot more work went into it than we think.

The ascend power you mention was actually something they discussed as well. As you said, the implementation is easy, that's something anyone with some basic programming and linalg experience can do, but making it robust is quite something else. But obviously they use some leeway here, they mentioned that they will shove Link away a bit in order to make him come out above, etc. Which is the right way to go about it.

In the grand scheme of things, the Switch isn't that terrible of a hardware. We already had games like Kerbal Space Program and Crysis running on much older processors so i don't know why people act so surprised at the Switch being able to recreate basic newtonean physics on a limited number of objects.

As for the robustness, i assume your attempts were done in third party engines like Unreal or Unity, in which case this would come as no surprise. These engines often come with basic physics implementations, cutting corners or simplifying some things for the sake of having better performance and flexibility. They're not really designed with proper physics simulation in mind.

Especially the recall power together with the physics engine is something I would've loved to see the code for.

It's a fun thing to think about, but doesn't particularly sounds like arcane magic either. Has been done before too, with many games that allow you to "rewind" like Prince of Persia SoT or GRID. A multitude that save replays too.

Personally i think they store a selected number of vectors per number of frames for each object on screen - for movement or force, depends on how the engine works specifically - then when you activate the power they reverse the vectors in order to obtain the path.

 

[PixelatedBeast]

Nintendo should just create a Cel-Shade division and make gorgeous, but not as technically demanding fun games. Buy the rights to Sly Cooper and make Wind Waker-style Zeldas.

Oh right, I sure Sony will agree to that after remembering how Nintendo took a 3rd party game like Bayonetta and made it exclusive....

 

[vaibhavpisal]

That's a Quality over Quantity issue.

Dread has a large world but places are not easily recognizable. Many places are same-ish, environnement art style being bland, and huge just for the sake of being huge. And this without offering a truly interconnected world, as you have to rely on trains and teleporters.

Dread is still a good game, but certainly not up there with the best of the 2D series.

I am mostly agreeing cause I am stuck RN.

After I managed to evade a BS EMMI, I was expecting some progress but game has thrown a wall right after that.

Pacing could have been better. But I reserve final judgement till I beat the game.

 

[TerribleAtThisGame]

I, for one, cannot wait for the look on my great-grandchild's face when they get brand-new Metroid Prime 4 for their birthday!

 

[Hudo]

i assume your attempts were done in third party engines like Unreal or Unity

Nah, it was for something where I couldn't (and didn't want to) just roll out Unreal or Unity for.

 

[Hudo]

Personally i think they store a selected number of vectors per number of frames for each object on screen - for movement or force, depends on how the engine works specifically - then when you activate the power they reverse the vectors in order to obtain the path.

That's what I am thinking as well. I can imagine, depending on how they implemented it and how exactly their physics system is implemented, that they can track all objects that can be rendered but the queue or list is obviously capped, which is reflected in the maximum amount of time you can let recall run. They probably save the positions + rotations for every physics update, reverse the list/pop the queue, as you suggested, and let the systems handle the rest. I'd also be interested whether they use some sort of kinetic data structure to help with this or not (depends on what they actually save and how often, really).

Man, I really would like an hour to sit down with the technical director. It was still neat to see that they use A* on a (hierarchical) voxel grid over the world + simple ray casting to dynamically synthesize and modify sounds. That was simple yet cool solution to their problems, I think.

 

[Thick Thighs Save Lives]

ai generated translation/post?...

In case my sarcasm detector has failed... It's one of Furukawa's responses from the Q&A with the investors (A1)- https://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2024/240508e.pdf

 

[Robb]

They're not immune to it.

Their Zelda games have become extremely complex and costly to develop.

Definitely, although I’d assume a lot of that is very Zelda-specific, i.e. testing the physics etc. So not really the same reasons cost are ballooning in the rest of the industry.

I don’t think many, if any, of Nintendo’s other first party titles comes very close to the recent Zelda’s in terms of costs. And even then, Zelda is still relatively cheap compared to something like, say, Spider-Man 2 ($120M vs. $300M).

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

And even then, Zelda is still relatively cheap compared to something like, say, Spider-Man 2 ($120M vs. $300M).

Zelda was probably closer to $200M+

 

[SHA]

Just count the number of mushrooms before reaching princes Peach, it's that simple actually, don't make it harder than it looks.