So even in console mode, the current clock speeds with 2 SMs wouldn't need an active cooling solution? bruh. I don't know what to think anymore.
Nintendo Switch Dev Kit Stats Leaked? Cortex A57, 4GB RAM, 32GB Storage, Multi-Touch.
- Thread starter Robert at Zeboyd Games
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Console Warriors at work.
I've mostly kept low balling my predictions because it'll have an SoC that's based on the X1 and it has to run on battery, so I've never excepted for a huge miracles unlike some other people. At best, I was hoping for a level of raw performance in the GeForce 920M - 950M range in console mode.
Skittzo0413
Member
I can't say with certainty but it sure seems that way. The closest comparison is the Pixel C tablet, which has a much higher clocked CPU and a similarly clocked GPU (to Switch docked mode) yet cools passively. It apparently throttles its GPU but not by much, and is much thinner than the Switch is. I'd honestly say even having vents is enough to cool the Switch enough at that clock speed.
Also obviously the Switch, in docked mode, has no battery concerns.
I don't think there's really any secret here, it's just a much more modern device with much better development/porting tools, regardless of FLOPS.
JoshuaJSlone
Member
No rumors to that effect, and given what we know it probably doesn't make sense. If the CPU doesn't change speed between docked and undocked, then worst case unoptimized scenario is probably an undocked game with frames looking the same as the docked version but at only 40% of the frame rate. So maybe there will be edge cases where people would find undocked mode unacceptable, but still possible.
Schnozberry
Member
It's possible the core configuration could be different, but I wouldn't bet on it.
At this point, I wish that someone out there could just dump the specs in pastebin or elsewhere. The pieces of specs we've seen through leaks this past week are very ambiguous and if the console is actually a decent performer, the info we got is kinda telling us otherwise.
If the fan is used in portable mode (which I doubt honestly), it doesn't make sense to me why they didn't increase the clock in portable mode just a bit, so it could run at full speed in docked mode and maintain the 2.5:1 ratio.
But I would guess they had good reasons for the downclocking and it was not just to extend battery life a bit. Maybe if they clocked it a bit higher it would run too hot in portable mode without the fan.
But I would guess they had good reasons for the downclocking and it was not just to extend battery life a bit. Maybe if they clocked it a bit higher it would run too hot in portable mode without the fan.
One of the things we need to look into is how a quad-core A57 does with emulating a GameCube. Is that possible with the current clocks? Seems low given my experience with Dolphin's needs and short of Nintendo making some sort of super-efficient processor, this seems to be at odds with the GC emulation at launch rumor, no?
AtomicShroom
Member
This would go against the entire concept of the system, so forget about it. This will not happen at any time in the system's lifespan.
Eolz
Member
Good writeup from Thraktor as usual, thanks.
There's indeed something weird, but probably more a mix between case 1 and 2 there.
KIMISHIMA, DROP THE BOMB!
He did. 300MHz
As someone that doesn't care about handheld gaming, the latest news really sucks. It will be a handheld, with a kinda console mode.
Give me a $/400 box to play Nintendo games on on my tv already
Yup I'm with you. I want a big solid box that plays everything, but primarily nintendo games.
You might not be able to reach XBO levels even if you duct tape 3 of them together.
???
With Nintendo, assume the lowest option. It's cheaper and/or more profit for them.
Hence the fan being confusing the lowest case, why even put moving parts in there with that config? Its more expensive and its prone to breaking with time.
Eolz
Member
Well I mean, I know where you're coming from, but the WiiU also had some weird customization choices that were discovered only after release.
Absolutely considering what we know the X1 chips at those clock speeds (786Mhz/1020Mhz) should be ok without active cooling. But lets just go overly cautious and say that even though its only 90% GPU clock and 51% CPU clock compared to Pixel C the need for no throttling and long play sessions may just about need active cooling, maybe.
Most pertinent thing here though is that cooling is used in portable mode not just docked.
Handheld mode is 36% the clock speed of Pixel C's GPU and 51% CPU speed, that doesn't need active cooling with X1 chips. Now if it was just docked mode that needed active cooling obviously there's no chance in hell they'd put the fan in the handheld itself. Its something Nintendo have never done and just becomes a weak point for potential failure and expensive replacements. Much cheaper to put the fan in the dock if that's when its needed.
Not to mention the patents specifically mention increasing the speed of the fan in docked mode, so apparently not only does the fan need to run at those low clock speeds (in portable mode) but it then needs to run faster to cool chips that have been proven to run faster than that cooled passively.
If Nvidia won't brag about anything specific in relation to Switch in January we will know that it is the worst case scenario within.
I can see that as possible if it was docked mode, but not in handheld. Adding a fan to a unit like that when its nowhere near necessary isn't playing it safe, its asking for unnecessary failures. Moving parts in a handheld just isn't a good move unless its absolutely necessary.
Either the GPU has extra SM's or the CPU is more powerful than A57, or maybe both. Certainly X1 specs at those clocks don't add up with active cooling, they barely add up at the clock speeds in docked mode.
Intriguing to find out what's making such a low clocked chip so hot (comparatively obviously).
The Hermit
Member
The thing is that Sony and MS had much higher expectation, while Nintendo probably thinks it's groundbreaking technology.
Still, Thraktor post is the most important, we still have no idea what this can run.
I hope the Dark Souls 3/trilogy rumor turns out real
I don't see what could be Nvidia's fault in this case. If the custom SoC used for Switch is underpowered compared to their stock SoC that runs in existing consoles and tablets that would be only because Nintendo had different requirements in terms of power draw and heat.
Edit: and in somehow related or unrelated news:
http://www.androidpolice.com/2016/1...hield-android-tv-which-may-come-in-two-sizes/
Edit: and in somehow related or unrelated news:
http://www.androidpolice.com/2016/1...hield-android-tv-which-may-come-in-two-sizes/
Of course the SoC will be what Nintendo have asked for and the best Nvidia can do. Nvidia need a good win in this market and Nintendo are too long in the tooth to be caught out by anyone as far as deals go. they showed with 3DS they were prepared to drop Nvidia like a stone if they didn't offer what they asked for.
If its not a good system obviously its Nintendo's doing.
If its not a good system obviously its Nintendo's doing.
TLZ
Banned
I'm not worried. I do think Nintendo's plan is to break the console cycle of 5 years, and make it a hybrid 1/1.5 year upgrades like the smartphone business.
Seems like they may have built software libraries to help developers down scale and upscale easily. I can see a Switch 4K in 2017 with a 1080p screen.
Seems like they may have built software libraries to help developers down scale and upscale easily. I can see a Switch 4K in 2017 with a 1080p screen.
Boy Wander
Member
Off-topic I know, but that controller looks fucking horrendous.
Wolfgang Jr
Banned
Damn, CES is 5-8 Jan. If it was after Nintendo's event, nVidia would show the new Shield and it would absolutely crush the Switch's hardware.
I'm cynical. The fan could be paranoia, maybe brought about by devkit hotness or some-such. Maybe Switch was more powerful at one point and they downgraded it like the Wii U was but didn't want to change the fan and logic around that?
Of course maybe it has 4SMs
The way I read Nintendo and their approach these days is simple.
They want to make LOTS of profit
They don't care about core gamers if they can get a bigger audience elsewhere
They want to hit a mass market price if they can
They have lost the home console gamer for the most part
Their handheld business is still strong
The Switch is BALLS TO THE WALL better than the 3DS so Nintendo and HH gamers would see this as an amazing unit
Everything adds up to the Switch being a "weak compared to competition, but nice relative to Wii U and attractive for HH and mainstream gamers". There's no need to put lots of power into a console when your audience isn't really that sophisticated/enthusiast anyway.
I'm cynical. The fan could be paranoia, maybe brought about by devkit hotness or some-such. Maybe Switch was more powerful at one point and they downgraded it like the Wii U was but didn't want to change the fan and logic around that?
Of course maybe it has 4SMs
You don't leave a fan in a system that doesn't use it. If specs changed to obsolete it, it would be removed. Why add frivoulous parts to your BOM?
Maybe the the designers found that it would be easier to put the fan inside the portable unit rather than the docking station, even though its main use would be cooling when docked?
Fall back to paranoia...but yes we don't know SMs so anything still goes. I just tend to think Nintendo plays on the low side if anything.
Sure. That's wise.
But remember this is being headed in part by one of their not to old hires from nVidia. Its not exactly a surprise that they also now work with nVidia, and I doubt their lead engineers don't know what they are doing.
Oh sure, I don't think Nintendo doesn't know what they are doing. It's that they prioritise other things than specs and with a system that is primarily replacing their handheld, they will go for things like battery life over grunt. Me, I'd prefer the opposite as I would hardly, if ever use it undocked if I had one so I would feel like I'm getting an extremely sub-standard console. Even more than what I thought was the lowest I'd expected given all the talk prior to the DF article.
Fourth Storm
Member
It's definitely more efficient to put the fan in the actual case with the SoC to be cooled. Also, our closest point of comparison on the handheld side, the Google Pixel C, is a 10.2 inch tablet with an aluminum back for heat dissipation. Perhaps the early reports of Switch being loud in handheld mode was Nintendo playing it safe with dev kit overheating, and hopefully they have now found they don't need to run the fan as much (or at all) in handheld mode.
The Nintendo Switch releases in 2017 and you're expecting a "Switch Pro" to come out in the same year?
I feel aghast at this thought.
Schnozberry
Member
You're never going to hear Nvidia or Nintendo compare the Shield line to the Switch. The Switch has the potential for millions of unit sales. The Shield is a vanity project that attempts to answer a question that is already answered by cheaper products. Nobody is going to place that at risk. The gaming aspect of The Shield is a non-factor, as it only gets occasional ports that Nvidia has to pay for because unit sales don't justify it otherwise. The previous generation sold under 100k LTD.
Despite hardcores like us being underwhelmed by the hardware, The Switch still has the greatest worldwide sales potential any gaming product being introduced in 2017, including Scorpio and the next iterations of VR Products. The barriers to entry for high end gaming are still too high.
If LKD is right, both the dock and the portable have fans, yes?
Why would they possibly need to waste space and money on both of them if it runs so modestly even when docked? Why waste space in the portable with a fan at all of it runs at 40% of a quite modest max? Surely a dock fan could handle docked cooling for a "Wii U 1.5."
That's the only part really confusing me about all this.
Other than that, I assumed it would be somewhere between the Wii U and Xbone. I hoped it would be closer to the latter than the former, but I like the design and form factor enough to be ok with the inverse.
Seems like there is still enough not known to provide for some level of variance... SM count, improvements borrowed from Pascal, 16nm, etc, but we may not know that stuff till after release if the past is any indication.
What's up with the goddamn fans, though?
Why would they possibly need to waste space and money on both of them if it runs so modestly even when docked? Why waste space in the portable with a fan at all of it runs at 40% of a quite modest max? Surely a dock fan could handle docked cooling for a "Wii U 1.5."
That's the only part really confusing me about all this.
Other than that, I assumed it would be somewhere between the Wii U and Xbone. I hoped it would be closer to the latter than the former, but I like the design and form factor enough to be ok with the inverse.
Seems like there is still enough not known to provide for some level of variance... SM count, improvements borrowed from Pascal, 16nm, etc, but we may not know that stuff till after release if the past is any indication.
What's up with the goddamn fans, though?
Skittzo0413
Member
Did you read Thraktor's post regarding the Pixel C comparison? The Pixel C has a max CPU clock which is twice that of the Switch and apparently the GPU barely throttles. Also consider the Switch appears to be quite a bit thicker than the Pixel C.
It would be very surprising if, even after all those considerations, the Switch still requires a fan in the portable. I mean, at the specs discussed by DF, isn't that about the same power draw overall as the Vita?
And we have heard reports of a fan in the dock additionally to that in the tablet portion, though that may not be the strongest rumor anymore in light of the patent application.
Mr. Pointy
Member
The Switch is the Maxwell (HA!) Smart of consoles.
"I have 1TF of GPU performance in this handheld."
"I don't believe you."
"Would you believe 512GF in docked mode?"
"..."
"Would you believe 3 Wii U's duct taped together?"
"I have 1TF of GPU performance in this handheld."
"I don't believe you."
"Would you believe 512GF in docked mode?"
"..."
"Would you believe 3 Wii U's duct taped together?"
Skittzo0413
Member
Missed it by... that much.
Whew. I was all bummed out when I went to bed, but now that I've rested a bit, I think I'm a bit more relaxed and level headed. Based on what we know so far, my feelings about this thing hasn't changed that much. I was expecting 4x Wii U when docked and it's going to be just under that. I'm fine with that, I think. On top of that, we still don't know much about the processors themselves and why the hell they'd need active cooling if the clock speeds were so low. I guess things will bear themselves out over time.
Astral Dog
Member
Keep dreaming lol.
calc84maniac
Member
I wouldn't say in 2017 at all, but a later revision of the Switch that has a 1080p screen and runs with the power of the current docked mode while undocked should definitely be feasible, once technology advances to reduce power consumption enough.
ShadowFox08
Member
What if the fan is there for a future scd? hmmm
Then again, just because the fan exists in the patent, doesn't mean it will in the final switch product.
Then again, just because the fan exists in the patent, doesn't mean it will in the final switch product.
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