Nintendo Switch Dev Kit Stats Leaked? Cortex A57, 4GB RAM, 32GB Storage, Multi-Touch.

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If they left the Tegra X1 as is on 28nm, it would be nearly 230mm^2. Seems like it would have a hugely adverse impact on yields. If this is the case, I'd guess they'd be cutting an SM at 28nm, halving our current performance estimates.

Yep. Much lower performance while portable. Transplanting the 20nm Tegra X1 design to 28nm increase the die size by 90%.

Which is not the case from what we've heard (LKD saying that it's going to be more powerful than Wii U even when undocked, Matt's posts about portings, OsirisBlack's, etc) and from what we've seen (Zelda at Fallon).

Also, considering that the only official statement we have refers to a "custom tegra processor", i don't see how and why they would've left TX1 "as is".

I don't have high expectations anymore. The low clocks killed that. Right now I'm just interested in seeing what they reveal at the event. Should give a good idea of what we're looking at capability wise. I guess my only expectation is literally that we are getting an X1 with a few modifications maybe for bandwidth, at the Eurogamer clocks. I don't think we are getting any process changes. I think it's going to be 20nm. I don't think they will go 16nm and I don't think they will produce it on a 28nm when it will "eventually" get shrunk in a revision anyway.

Not that it's necessarily going to be the case, but i hope you realize that 3SM at those "low clocks" would perform better than stock TX1. Those DF numbers without context (the number of cores and the rest of the specs) are pretty fucking useless, just don't expect Xbox One performances from a small tablet and you'll be good.
 
How close are we talking though? Will those cost savings be worth potentially handicapping the system?

It's pretty difficult to say precisely (there are an awful lot of variables), but just taking TSMC's public comments on the processes can give us a reasonable idea. On their 20nm process (they only have one, compared to I believe six 28nm processes), they claim:

TSMC's 20nm process technology can provide 30 percent higher speed, 1.9 times the density, or 25 percent less power than its 28nm technology.

The problem is that they don't specify which of their 28nm processes they're comparing to. It might be assumed that they'll give themselves the most favourable comparison, which would be 28LP, although this would actually make 20nm less power efficient than 28HPC, let alone 28HPC+, as they say:

Compared with TSMC's 28LP, 28HPC provides 10% smaller die size and more than 30% power reduction at all levels of speed

If they were choosing the least favourable comparison and comparing to 28HPC (which became available at about the same time, afaik), then there still wouldn't be a whole lot in it, as 28HPC+ reportedly has 25% lower leakage than 28HPC. Although this is only leakage, not dynamic power, for a low-clocked mobile chip like Switch's leakage can constitute quite a large proportion of power draw.

Then, looking at TSMC's 16FF+ description, they claim

TSMC's 16FF+ (FinFET Plus) technology can provide above 65 percent higher speed, around 2 times the density, or 70 percent less power than its 28HPM technology. Comparing with 20SoC technology, 16FF+ provides extra 40% higher speed and 60% power saving.

Here they actually give us the 28nm process they're comparing to, and it's two generations behind 28HPC+. It also works out to a 25% power reduction from 28HPM to 20nm, so it may be that this is what they're comparing 20nm to above as well. If this is the case, then the actual power consumption difference between 20nm and 28HPC+ could be near-trivial.

It's also worth keeping in mind that the above comparisons will be, for the most part, between the median chip manufactured on a given process (i.e. if you line up all the chips from a wafer from best to worst, you're comparing the middle one). One of the big benefits of mature nodes like 28nm is that there's much less variability from one die to the next. For Nvidia or Intel, who will bin their dies across a number of SKUs, lowering clock speeds or disabling cores on the cheaper models to use as many dies as possible, this isn't that big of a deal, but for Nintendo it would be quite important, as they want to use as many dies as possible from each wafer for a single product, and they have to work around the clock speeds and power consumption of the worst-performing dies.

In this scenario, if Nintendo aims to use, say 95% of functioning dies, then a mature 28nm process may actually give them better performance than the 20nm process, simply because the lower process variability means that the bottom 5th percentile of 28nm dies could actually perform better than the bottom 5th percentile of 20nm dies. Of course they could use fewer of the 20nm dies to push the performance floor up, but that's just ratcheting up the cost on an already expensive node.

The only area where 20nm would have a clear benefit over 28nm is in density, where a given chip will be quite a lot smaller on 20nm than 28nm. This is very valuable in smartphones, where every cubic millimetre is precious, but I honestly don't expect it to be that big of a deal for Switch (in fact a larger die actually helps cooling as the larger surface area dissipates heat more effectively).
 
Which is not the case from what we've heard (LKD saying that it's going to be more powerful than Wii U even when portable, Matt's posts about portings, OsirisBlack's, etc) and from what we've seen (Zelda at Fallon).

Also, considering that the only official statement we have refers to a "custom tegra processor", i don't see how and why they would've left TX1 "as is".

I don't know what the Switch Die Size is, so I was just going off the TX1 for comparison. Going to 28nm would have consequences, including buying quite a few more wafers, and having to cool a much larger and less efficient chip.

I would think there would be incredible internal resistance to an idea like this, especially considering the in house experience of current Nintendo Employees working previously as engineers at Nvidia, but you never know. Sudha Sudharsanan works at Nintendo do, but previously at Nvidia he helped build the Tegra chips that ended up in the Zune devices for Microsoft.
 
Not that it's necessarily going to be the case, but i hope you realize that 3SM at those "low clocks" would perform better than stock TX1. Those DF numbers without context (the number of cores and the rest of the specs) are pretty fucking useless, just don't expect Xbox One performances from a small tablet and you'll be good.

We discussed it back. I'm fully aware but as of now like you said we don't have any context on what to expect. 3SM would make everything we heard make more sense "but" I also dunno if what we have been hearing is more optimistic than anything else. Basically we dunno.

But my gut says we probably are looking at 2 SMs. If we get more than that great.
 
Yep. Much lower performance while portable. Transplanting the 20nm Tegra X1 design to 28nm increase the die size by 90%.
That would go against the power levels we have heard about the Switch. Even with the modern architecture, at ~80 GFLOP, it would likely be lower than the Wii U's power.
 
That would go against the power levels we have heard about the Switch. Even with the modern architecture, at ~80 GFLOP, it would likely be lower than the Wii U's power.

But it'd be hilarious if the 78.5 GFLOPS in portable mode were true because no one could have predicted it being that low.

That is literally a Turbo Vita, or Vita successor as opposed to something going even further beyond.
 
But it'd be hilarious if the 78.5 GFLOPS in portable mode were true because no one could have predicted it being that low.

That is literally a Turbo Vita, or Vita successor as opposed to something going even further beyond.

It'd probably be even weaker than a hypothetical Vita successor.
 
If they left the Tegra X1 as is on 28nm, it would be nearly 230mm^2. Seems like it would have a hugely adverse impact on yields. If this is the case, I'd guess they'd be cutting an SM at 28nm, halving our current performance estimates.

That doesn't sound right at all. The TX1 package is a bit over 100mm², so the die should be below that, and from Maxwell to Pascal we've seen a reduction of about 35%-40% in die sizes (to a node with the same density as 20nm). The 28HPC/HPC+ processes are also a little bit more compact than the 28HP node Nvidia would have been using, reducing die size by about 10%. Something around 150mm² sounds reasonable, which would be large for a phone, but entirely feasible for a device like Switch.
 
That doesn't sound right at all. The TX1 package is a bit over 100mm², so the die should be below that, and from Maxwell to Pascal we've seen a reduction of about 35%-40% in die sizes (to a node with the same density as 20nm). The 28HPC/HPC+ processes are also a little bit more compact than the 28HP node Nvidia would have been using, reducing die size by about 10%. Something around 150mm² sounds reasonable, which would be large for a phone, but entirely feasible for a device like Switch.

Thanks for the info btw, there's a still a lot of possibilities.
 
Thanks for the info btw, there's a still a lot of possibilities.

Yet we'll still know probably nothing with CES this week and the Switch presentation next week.

Then we'll get rumours afterwards, especially weird ones that try to push the Switch as being more powerful than we think. (Even though what we thought was reasonable got cut by half as someone else pointed out.)
 
I was just wondering, how does the Switch compare to the Wii U while undocked? I know that the CPU will naturally be a big improvement since the Wii U's architecture was two generations old, but I'm struggling to find specifications on the Wii U's GPU.
 
If they left the Tegra X1 as is on 28nm, it would be nearly 230mm^2. Seems like it would have a hugely adverse impact on yields. If this is the case, I'd guess they'd be cutting an SM at 28nm, halving our current performance estimates.

Are we talking 75mfops when mobile?
 
Rockstar is earning BIG BIG BIG without Nintendo. Why should they bother?

It is Nintendo who needs to reel third party in. If a third party is not developing for Switch it is Nintendo's fault.

Nintendo need to sell the Switch to devs and publishers in a good way. Good documentation, free support, free upgrades, clear pricing, english support, middleware support, tools for porting, engine support etc.

If Nintendo doesn't do an awesome job; parties won't come. And why should they?

Agreed but history shows that Nintendo doesn't do that. They always feel they have the best games and as long as they release their games and rehash their old titles people will buy 100's of millions of their machines.

It's everyone's job not just Nintendo. Yes Nintendo has to give the best hardware and tools available to third parties. But the publishers have to put effort in and not treat a Nintendo game or port as a red headed step child. Finally gamers have to support good content when it's released.

1) Gamers ALWAYS support good content when they get it. But they tend to want to support it on machines where it'll look good. Nintendo machines aren't those.
2) Nintendo need to do more than make tools and hardware, they need to support publishers, pay them, do marketing for them etc. Nintendo have treated third parties like shit for decades and whilst their attitude is less hostile now, they are still rarely helpful. Nintendo don't hold third parties in high regard, they think of them as a necessary evil.

3) Publishers will put in effort if they think they can get decent money back. Again Nintendo consoles have shown that's not really going to happen unless it's a casual game.

Therefore, most of the problems are Nintendo's, starting with the hardware which is typically shit in comparison to the competition. This means that the third parties that come to the machine are typically ones that are happy with mediocre hardware. Casual games and indies.
 
That doesn't sound right at all. The TX1 package is a bit over 100mm², so the die should be below that, and from Maxwell to Pascal we've seen a reduction of about 35%-40% in die sizes (to a node with the same density as 20nm). The 28HPC/HPC+ processes are also a little bit more compact than the 28HP node Nvidia would have been using, reducing die size by about 10%. Something around 150mm² sounds reasonable, which would be large for a phone, but entirely feasible for a device like Switch.

The X1 measures 121mm^2 at 20nm (11mm x 11mm).

It's probably not 90% in comparison to HPC+, that's probably in relation to HPM. If I'm generous and say 20nm is a 1.6x density improvement over 28nm HPC+, it would be 194mm^2.
 
Right, I get the calculation. But why is that even discussed and the "if true" part.

It's to do with the rest of the speculation on the current page for if Nintendo went with a 28nm node instead of 20nm, it's cheaper and a mature node that has gotten improvements over time at TSMC but the die size could be a problem for something comparable to a TX1 hence reducing the GPU size by taking out an SM could occur.

It's all speculation though and I was just saying it'd be hilarious if it were true because of how it throws off everything regarding the dev-kits.
 
It's to do with the rest of the speculation on the current page for if Nintendo went with a 28nm node instead of 20nm, it's cheaper and a mature mode that has gotten improvements over time at TSMC but the die size could be a problem for something comparable to a TX1 hence reducing the GPU size by taking out an SM could occur.

It's all speculation though and I was just saying it'd be hilarious if it were true because of how it throws off everything regarding the dev-kits.

We would probably have heard some rumblings if that was the case though. 78 Mflops would even have trouble running straight ports of Wii U games. Also 3.2 gb memory would be way to high for that.
 
We would probably have heard some rumblings if that was the case though. 78 Mflops would even have trouble running straight ports of Wii U games. Also 3.2 gb memory would be way to high for that.
Yes. The other components of the system are several times improved over the Wii U, so it would be weird to have the GPU clocked so low that it would struggle with Wii U performance.
 
Is there a way to get out more Gflops with Switch GPU running at that low clock frequency?

Yes, it's been mentioned before when the clockspeeds were shown and that is by increasing the number of CUDA Cores, 1SM = 128 CUDA Cores.

Increasing the number of CUDA Cores makes the GPU larger though and could make things difficult regarding yields.
 
Some more information about 28nm HPC+


28HPC+
This is a new version of the 28nm process. It is more compact with new cell libraries with 9T and 7T (versus 12T and 9T for 28HPC). It is 15% faster, better analog properties, tighter process corners. But same design rules.

To do designs for 28HPC+ then standard cells need to be re-characterized if you don't switch to the new libraries, SRAM needs to be re-characterized, analog and interface IP should be re-characterized and may need retuning for frequency. I/Os are unchanged. All foundation IP should be available by 2Q2015 with interface all available by 4Q2015 or 1Q2016.
 
Yes, it's been mentioned before when the clockspeeds were shown and that is by increasing the number of CUDA Cores, 1SM = 128 CUDA Cores.

Increasing the number of CUDA Cores makes the GPU larger though and could make things difficult regarding yields.

Using 16mm pascal too.
 
It's fairly simple.

The opportunity cost of developing a game is non-zero.

Publishers are businesses, if they think the opportunity cost is too high compared to the gains they are not going to risk the losses involved in development, or if they do they are going to moderate their expenditure on that title to reduce the opportunity cost.

To do otherwise would be a quick path to bankcruptcy.
If the Switch situation is so bad that even a GTAV port couldn't return many times its porting cost, every other game on the system is pretty well fucked.
 
If the Switch situation is so bad that even a GTAV port couldn't return many times its porting cost, every other game on the system is pretty well fucked.

Not really when you talk about incredibly late ports.

The more sales of a product there are, the less of a potential for sales there are for it and any potential future demand is subsequently reduced, and with GTAV you're talking about a game that has already sold well over 60 million copies across all it's platforms.

That is a lot of demand that is already met, which significantly reduces the sales potential of any late port.

The number of people willing to "double dip" is incredibly small.
 
Seeing how based on the recent Vega leak AMD is not shy about using FP16 TFLOPS in their presentations most probably we will get the same for Switch if Nvidia publishes something.


I'll hold you personally responsible if this doesn't happen. :P Undocked mode, yeah?
 
What are the chances of this reaching 2x Wii U on undocked mode?

I heard at most we should expect like 1.5

With the proposed clock-speed numbers and proposed number of CUDA cores, it's closer to 1.5X Wii U undocked.

That said, some things aren't adding up.

The main one is that the patents for the Switch show that the fan for the system is always on - it just runs at a lower speed while undocked.

Now, why have a fan running on an super-underclocked system when older TX1's didn't need active cooling at higher speeds? It seems like a waste of battery life.

Which is why some are proposing that one of the customizations made was adding another SM of CUDA cores to the chip (bringing the CUDA core count up from 256 to 384) which would bring undocked performance up to roughly two Wii Us, but that also creates an argument that the chip is now too large.
 
It's moreso the fab node that was a big deal compared to the architectures since they're similar.

16nm meant better power efficiency compared to 20nm.

There's no 16nm Maxwell, only Pascal.

We were told by way of rumour that Pascal was going to happen and apparently things changed.

Eurogamer mentions the GPU is Maxwell and has Pascal features apparently but 2nd Gen Maxwell was pretty close in features compared to Pascal as well.

NateDrake also says the final or most recent dev-kits sent out are using Maxwell.

Maybe Nintendo will still utilise 16nm fab nodes but it doesn't tie-in with the leaked clock speeds of the dev-kits unless Nintendo were wanting to make this run lower than 4W in portable mode.

Who knows.

Say what? I thought Nate Drake insisted the final dev kits were pascal?
 
With the proposed clock-speed numbers and proposed number of CUDA cores, it's closer to 1.5X Wii U undocked.

That said, some things aren't adding up.

The main one is that the patents for the Switch show that the fan for the system is always on - it just runs at a lower speed while undocked.

Now, why have a fan running on an super-underclocked system when older TX1's didn't need active cooling at higher speeds? It seems like a waste of battery life.

Which is why some are proposing that one of the customizations made was adding another SM of CUDA cores to the chip (bringing the CUDA core count up from 256 to 384) which would bring undocked performance up to roughly two Wii Us, but that also creates an argument that the chip is now too large.

An additional SM or 2 at 20nm wouldn't be too large. Probably similar to the increase some are predicting if they are right about the device being 28nm. It's reaching the limits of being difficult to cool, but at low clocks it probably wouldn't be a huge problem.
 
An additional SM or 2 at 20nm would be under 200mm^2. Probably similar to the increase some are predicting if they are right about the device being 28nm. It's reaching the limits of being difficult to cool, but at low clocks it probably wouldn't be a huge problem.

Is it really to big with 3SM when the Switch is as big as it is?
 
Which still makes me wonder why the thing is running it's fan in portable mode. If it's running at that low of power, then having the fan running is pointless and just stands to waste more battery life.

The patent may be future proofing in case they do a firmware upclock or something. Maybe the fan will be idle in portable mode at launch. Or maybe the patents were filed before the final clocks were decided.
 
The number of people willing to "double dip" is incredibly small.
I don't know. *shrugs*

GTA V is one of the most successful PS360 games, yet as far as I understand (haven't really followed sales age mostly since NPD started giving less and less public data) the nextgen remaster has sold really well, so I'd argue this number might not be that small after all.
With the hypotetical Switch port of course it would be all about having a "true" portable version instead of improved graphics.
 
I know Nintendo console launches always have a lot of fan speculation, but this is spinning out of control.

notsorry
 
If Nintendo has taught us anything. It should be to take your modest expectations and reduce them by 50℅.

The problem is that most people judge Nintendo products using old values.

Nintendo makes products with a table of new values. Don't be fooled by the red coloring in their logo, they're still very much a Blue Ocean company. How could they be anything but? Their competitors are giants.


Even if it doesn't always work, this is the only way for them.
 
I know Nintendo console launches always have a lot of fan speculation, but this is spinning out of control.

notsorry

We're missing key pieces of information that no one is going to give us. Calling some speculation reasonable and other speculation unreasonable presumes we know generally what is going on when we don't. We know the clock speeds and that dev kits up until recently were on a Tegra X1 in a non standard configuration to mimic the final hardware. But we don't know anything about lithography, core counts, or memory configuration. Honestly, the most puzzling bit is why it would need active cooling given the limited information we do have.

There are several conclusions you could arrive at extrapolating from what we know, and I think the speculation in the thread reflects that.
 
The problem is that most people judge Nintendo products using old values.

Nintendo makes products with a table of new values. Don't be fooled by the red coloring in their logo, they're still very much a Blue Ocean company. How could they be anything but? Their competitors are giants.


Even if it doesn't always work, this is the only way for them.

Nintendo is a multi billion dollar company. There is nothing stopping them from competing directly with their competition besides their own internal culture and philosophies. I'm a fan of their software and IP, but but there is nowhere to look but the mirror for them when trying my to figure out why they are in the competitive position they are in.

Positioning them as underdogs is a bit disingenuous. They had a decade or more of experience in the industry before Microsoft and Sony entered. It was their industry to fumble away, and they did.
 
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