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[Primethius]

The stat/leveling system, right down to bloodstain retrieval is a complete lift of Dark Souls. The games are distinguishable but there's more than surface level similarities. It's a good game and it's fun, but IMO you have to acknowledge its borrowed foundations.

I call those surface level because that's exactly what they feel like. I'm not saying that it doesn't share similarities. But the game plays drastically different than a Souls game. When I think borrowing foundations, I think a game that actually plays like a Souls game (hence, foundations).

If you add a Souls like stat system and souls retrieval to Witcher, it doesn't make Witcher a Souls like game. Those features are on the lower end of the spectrum in defining the identity of a Souls title. Nioh has the super easy stuff to point to for similarities but in terms of actual mechanics and design, it's drastically different than a Souls title.

 

[Lady Gaia]

What do you mean by basic mechanical structure? The game's entire combat system is drastically different than a Souls title (and harkens more to other older action games than any particular Souls game).

I've been playing video games since the 1970s, and I can't think of an earlier action game that nailed the Souls' series particular brand of combat. The combination of weapon selection, risk/reward attack timing, and balance between conservative turtling and aggressive attacks is less about any single mechanic and more about how they work together. The whole death penalty system of your spirit guarding your grave is a clever re-spin of the "hollow" concept. Amrita and souls are basically interchangeable concepts (even going so far as to use

Spoiler

soul stones

as one of the item classes that bestow amrita!) Weapons that gain strength to varying degrees from multiple character traits isn't something you find often, either. Opening one-way shortcuts back to earlier areas on the map is also used to similar effect with shine placement being pretty much analogous to bonfire placement.

It's not one thing that gives me this overwhelming impression, it's just about everything. Nioh goes on to add its own touches and is clearly far more than just a Souls clone. It innovates in some really interesting ways, too, which is absolutely welcome.

If that's not how it strikes you then your viewpoint is certainly valid. I suspect that far more people will see the tremendous debt Nioh owes to the Souls games than would argue otherwise.

 

[Mikey Jr.]

So this is gonna rest at around 88?

That is pretty damn good!

 

[DealWithIt]

I call those surface level because that's exactly what they feel like. I'm not saying that it doesn't share similarities. But the game plays drastically different than a Souls game. When I think borrowing foundations, I think a game that actually plays like a Souls game (hence, foundations).

If you add a Souls like stat system and souls retrieval to Witcher, it doesn't make Witcher a Souls like game. Those features are on the lower end of the spectrum in defining the identity of a Souls title. Nioh has the super easy stuff to point to for similarities but in terms of actual mechanics and design, it's drastically different than a Souls title.

It also uses the bloodborne dodge, adapts the regain mechanic into a stamina mechanic, uses a similar dodge/guard strong/weak attack dichotomy, relies on similar combat design principles, lifts from whole cloth the stone, firebombs, resin, estus and many other models. It is different from a souls game sure, but it would not exist without them and they clearly draw deeply from them.

Like he said:

I've been playing video games since the 1970s, and I can't think of an earlier action game that nailed the Souls' series particular brand of combat. The combination of weapon selection, risk/reward attack timing, and balance between conservative turtling and aggressive attacks is less about any single mechanic and more about how they work together. The whole death penalty system of your spirit guarding your grave is a clever re-spin of the "hollow" concept. Amrita and souls are basically interchangeable concepts (even going so far as to use

Spoiler

soul stones

as one of the item classes that bestow amrita!) Weapons that gain strength to varying degrees from multiple character traits isn't something you find often, either. Opening one-way shortcuts back to earlier areas on the map is also used to similar effect with shine placement being pretty much analogous to bonfire placement.

It's not one thing that gives me this overwhelming impression, it's just about everything. Nioh goes on to add its own touches and is clearly far more than just a Souls clone. It innovates in some really interesting ways, too, which is absolutely welcome.

If that's not how it strikes you then your viewpoint is certainly valid. I suspect that far more people will see the tremendous debt Nioh owes to the Souls games than would argue otherwise.

 

[Primethius]

It also uses the bloodborne dodge, adapts the regain mechanic into a stamina mechanic, uses a similar dodge/guard strong/weak attack dichotomy, relies on similar combat design principles, lifts from whole cloth the stone, firebombs, resin, estus and many other models. It is different from a souls game sure, but it would not exist without them and they clearly draw deeply from them.

Like he said:

I'm sorry, what? And Bloodborne dodge?

This isn't some new dev on the block. This is Team Ninja. They made one of the greatest action games in existence (Ninja Gaiden: Black). Why is it a Bloodborne dodge and not a Ninja Gaiden dodge that came out on OG Xbox?

Again, I'm not suggesting that things aren't similar or copies of Souls games. But there are differences between a game being a copy at a foundational level and aspects copied that are more upper/surface level.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I gotta agree with Primethius. The combat itself in Nioh is far faster paced and has more in common with Ninja Gaiden mechanically than it does Dark Souls. Even Bloodborne feels like walking in mud compared, while that's partially down to the difference in FPS, even in movie mode the game is still notably faster(and don't suffer the same performance issues.)

The fact that this game has been in development for atleast 2 and a half years, long before Bloodborne came out kind of shows that Team Ninja were taking their own combat experience into account more than Bloodborne.

If BB had not come out, i expect that way more people would be praising the freshness of Nioh's combat speed compared to Dark Soul's plodding nature

 

[Lady Gaia]

Like he said

Like she said, but thanks!

 

[bigjig]

I feel like you guys are really reaching with some of your complaints. Obviously it borrows a lot of basic level elements from the Souls games, the devs have openly admitted as such, but ki pulse copying Bloodborne's health regain system? Cmon now

 

[HStallion]

Team Ninja has said they were heavily inspired by the Souls games. Its not some secret and they're not ashamed or anything. They also mentioned Diablo and others.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Team Ninja has said they were heavily inspired by the Souls games. Its not some secret and they're not ashamed or anything. They also mentioned Diablo and others.

While this is obviously true(i mean you'd have to be blind not to see it), what people take umbrage is the thought of this game being dismissed as a clone of a single franchise with no real purpose as opposed to borrowing aspects of different kinds of games and putting their own spin on the different formulas.

Diablo loot, Souls style death and level up system, Team Ninja's own kind of combat. A Sengoku inspired game with Onimusha style.

 

[Planisphaerium]

DMC had the soul mechanic thing way before Dark Souls did. I find it more interesting in Nioh as it contributes to your LW

 

[plasmawave]

Capcom could have rebooted Onimusha with Souls inspirations. Missed opportunity.
We have Nioh instead at least.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanyūdō

Wanyūdō takes the form of a burning oxcart wheel bearing the tormented face of a man. Various folklore purports him as the condemned soul of a tyrant daimyo who, in life, was known for having his victims drawn on the back of an oxcart. He is said to guard the gates of Hell, and to wander back and forth along the road between this world and the underworld, scaring townsfolk as he passes and stealing the souls of anyone who gets too close in order to bring them to Hell with him.

You know, in case people think Dark Souls invented the wheeled enemy.

 

[Kaisos]

Nothing is without iteration and innovation so it's not a simply cash-in clone, but it's hard to play without seeing many very familiar aspects.

Dark Souls invented wheels, rickety platforms, and enemies that can resurrect other enemies. I see.

The stat/leveling system, right down to bloodstain retrieval is a complete lift of Dark Souls.

This is called corpse running and it's in a lot of MMOs. Hell, it's in Shovel Knight.

I'll give you that dropping your accumulated experience is a Souls thing (and Nioh has a lot in common with Souls, for sure), but the concept of retrieving stuff from your dead body is not something Souls invented.

 

[Holundrian]

EZA review is up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGhdd1m9Ce4

Spoiler

4.5 stars

 

[Primethius]

EZA review is up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGhdd1m9Ce4

Spoiler

4.5 stars

The review I've been waiting on. Time to dig in.

 

[Rozart]

Ben has great taste as always!

Btw, did they happen to undership this game? The game came out two days ago in my country and I decided to pick up a copy on Friday only to be told that they're all sold out. At all three of the local game stores closest to me. And the next shipment is only due to arrive next Thursday. I'm getting Until Dawn flashbacks.

 

[Holundrian]

Ben has great taste as always!

Btw, did they happen to undership this game? The game came out two days ago in my country and I decided to pick up a copy on Friday only to be told that they're all sold out. At all three of the local game stores closest to me. And the next shipment is only due to arrive next Thursday. I'm getting Until Dawn flashbacks.

Yes definitely undershipped. Saw on reddit several people mentioning it's sold out as well locally here I haven't seen a copy around.

 

[Rozart]

Damn. /: Well, I'm glad that there seems to be a lot of legitimate interest in the game at least.

I really wanted to get a physical copy but I might just cave and buy it digitally instead.

 

[Izuna]

People drawing up all these comparisons... I mean, yeah, it's a game catering to the Souls crowd the same way God Eater caters to Monster Hunter...

Sure we could debate on all the minor differences (like currency and exp not being the same as it is in Souls) or whenever something isn't DkS, it's DS (many consumable healing items)

OR we could just accept that the ARPG is a genre that has been borrowing of itself since it's inception.

I don't see why the discussion doesn't end at Souls game made by Team Ninja/NG devs. When you dive into specifics to describe the game or talk about its systems in a strategic way, sure, but this idea that NiOh deserves less praise for borrowing concepts is a little juvenile.

Why not go back and look at all the thing's Demon's Souls took from prior games?

I also don't think it makes any sense to say NiOh is a good version of a Souls game. I mean, I quite dislike DkS1, and yet love this. They're different experiences, which vastly different settings and approach to combat flow.

DkS and DS are both already very different in structure, and from what I've heard, Bloodborne. Its silly to pick parts from each Souls game and say "look, NiOh copied this from this one!"

You know what NiOh didn't take from Souls? 30fps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanyūdō



You know, in case people think Dark Souls invented the wheeled enemy.

Damnit, I've been looking for this without success for ages, haha.

I wish we had more Monk/Tengu stuff in this game, though. That's most of the folklore I know.

 

[wapplew]

EZA review is up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGhdd1m9Ce4

Spoiler

4.5 stars

Kyle not going to play it then.
You had one job Ben.

 

[plasmawave]

Called it.

 

[wumster3000]

Wrong topic, should be in OT instead of review thread.

 

[SarusGray]

I want to buy physical, but I have such a huge backlog, it's sold out everywhere I'm at physically so I have to buy digital, but I don't want to buy digital but game sounds amazing. Oh my first world problems.

 

[Holundrian]

Kyle not going to play it then.
You had one job Ben.

Gotta wait for Ian to make the score "correction" :-x.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

Yeah realistically that would be the score.

It was a good dream while it last.

 

[Planisphaerium]

Yeah realistically that would be the score.

It was a good dream while it last.

4.5/5

so disappointing

 

[timmyp53]

4.5/5

so disappointing

Lol

 

[Caipirinha]

4.5 is a fair score from EZA I just struggle to see how TLG is deserving of a 5/5, since that 5/5 I always expect games like Nioh to also get a perfect score, because as much I adore TLG, and I truly do, it has so many objective flaws that games like Nioh don't.

 

[Servbot24]

4.5 is a fair score from EZA I just struggle to see how TLG is deserving of a 5/5, since that 5/5 I always expect games like Nioh to also get a perfect score, because as much I adore TLG, and I truly do, it has so many objective flaws that games like Nioh don't.

Some flaws are irrelevant to the game.

 

[righthandmouse]

Has any reviewer called out the garbage far away enemies running at 15fps?

 

[silva1991]

4.5 is a fair score from EZA I just struggle to see how TLG is deserving of a 5/5, since that 5/5 I always expect games like Nioh to also get a perfect score, because as much I adore TLG, and I truly do, it has so many objective flaws that games like Nioh don't.

Because the overall experience was more satisfying for them? I love Nioh and all, but the repetitiveness and grinding are hurting it for me and I'm certain TLG will be higher in my over all games of the gen.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

4.5/5

so disappointing

Lol I'm not saying it's a bad score.

 

[Karak]

Has any reviewer called out the garbage far away enemies running at 15fps?

Ya I discussed it in our description and such. Looks like a bit of Halo's half update for far away enemies

 

[Servbot24]

Has any reviewer called out the garbage far away enemies running at 15fps?

I will not stand for this.

I. Am. Gamer.

 

[Hypron]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanyūdō



You know, in case people think Dark Souls invented the wheeled enemy.

And, I mean, the wheeled skeletons are just one of many things FROM got directly from Berserk.

 

[Mr.Fletcher]

I'm still disappointed they made him Irish when he should in fact be English. I've heard the reasoning behind it, but it still rubs me the wrong way. lol

 

[Kaisos]

Has any reviewer called out the garbage far away enemies running at 15fps?

I've seen lots of recent Japanese games do this. It's easier on loading, I take it.

 

[J 0 E]

EZA review is up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGhdd1m9Ce4

Spoiler

4.5 stars

4.5/5 = 9/10

 

[Cleve]

Has any reviewer called out the garbage far away enemies running at 15fps?

Animation lod helps overall performance. It's a great sacrifice if it helps the framerate and action stay smooth.

 

[Spiral Insanity]

Has any reviewer called out the garbage far away enemies running at 15fps?

How does that affect your experience?

 

[N° 2048]

Has any reviewer called out the garbage far away enemies running at 15fps?

40 hours in and I have only noticed this once.

It's there but does not detract from the experience at all.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

What do you mean by basic mechanical structure? The game's entire combat system is drastically different than a Souls title (and harkens more to other older action games than any particular Souls game). And as part of that, most of the sub-systems are fairly different as well.

It shares surface level similarities sure, but that's really about it I would say.

The battle system has more mechanics than souls, that has a relative simple combat system. But let's not fool ourselves, is built in the same pillars as the souls series. The more weight based movement approach, stamina bar, etc.

I'm playing Nioh and feels like a souls game. That's what matters, I understand that people wants to differenciate the two, and definetly, Nioh is not a clone or a copy, but still has the souls DNA all over.

 

[KodaRuss]

I am always forgetting to use the KI pulse for some reason. Just cleared the first level and I like it so far. Just a lot of mechanics to juggle right now with the stances the KI pulsing and I have no idea what or how to perform any of the magic abilities.

 

[sasuke_91]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanyūdō



You know, in case people think Dark Souls invented the wheeled enemy.

Those are in a lot of Japanese games, including Okami.

EZA review is up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGhdd1m9Ce4

Spoiler

4.5 stars

Great review as expected.

 

[comshoplesce]

I am always forgetting to use the KI pulse for some reason. Just cleared the first level and I like it so far. Just a lot of mechanics to juggle right now with the stances the KI pulsing and I have no idea what or how to perform any of the magic abilities.

that's the morst important thing in the game

 

[Mr_Kuschels]

I am always forgetting to use the KI pulse for some reason. Just cleared the first level and I like it so far. Just a lot of mechanics to juggle right now with the stances the KI pulsing and I have no idea what or how to perform any of the magic abilities.

You can unlock something that lets you perform a Ki pulse when dodging after a combo. As far as I recall it only costs one skill point.

 

[Derekor]

One of the best games so far this gen!

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

You can unlock something that lets you perform a Ki pulse when dodging after a combo. As far as I recall it only costs one skill point.

It's only cost 1 skill points for unlocking it on low stance.

3 for mid, 5 for high.

 

[PepsimanVsJoe]

My review for Cubed3 is up.
http://www.cubed3.com/review/3553/1/nioh-playstation-4.html

(Didn't get a review copy, hence the lateness)

It's almost shocking that Nioh turned out as well as it did. While Team Ninja is an exceptional talent, they took a pretty huge risk in crafting this game. It takes a lot effort to develop a polished 3D action game, let alone one that relies heavily on RPG elements such as levelling and equipment. Thankfully, they managed to put out a winner. Every single one of the game's multitude of sub-systems co-exists with one another in perfect harmony. There is a consistent feeling of joy thanks to the phenomenal combat and acquisition of sweet gear. Popping open a demon to see colour-coded weapons and armour pour out of its lifeless body like candy from a piñata is actually fun again.

9/10