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[B-Genius]

As I suggested, it's hard to tell whether the Souls team should find it flattering or be outraged because the foundation of the game is so blatantly similar. Let's see, though, aside from the entire basic mechanical structure of the game?

• The behavior patterns of the
  Spoiler

  rolling enemies in the mines
  is clearly meant to remind players of the
  Spoiler

  rolling skeleton wheels
  .
• The
  Spoiler

  mines
  in general feel like a riff on the poison-themed blight town, including the appearance of rickety platforms over everything.
• There's a sub-mission relatively early filled with
  Spoiler

  musicians playing what I believe are shamisen
  that continually resurrect
  Spoiler

  flaming skulls, but also dead player revenants which I actually thought was a nice touch
  . They'd be familiar to anyone who fought skeletons with necromancers around.

Nothing is without iteration and innovation so it's not a simply cash-in clone, but it's hard to play without seeing many very familiar aspects.

The stat/leveling system, right down to bloodstain retrieval is a complete lift of Dark Souls. The games are distinguishable but there's more than surface level similarities. It's a good game and it's fun, but IMO you have to acknowledge its borrowed foundations.

What you folks are describing is almost entirely surface-level. Stats, equipment weight ratio, combat, etc. might be more system-level, but they certainly aren't "lifted" from Dark Souls.

You might also immediately think shrine=bonfire or grave=bloodstain, but these sorts of things aren't exclusive to Souls, neither were they necessarily pioneered by it.

As others have said, there are a lot of existing mechanics that From incorporated to create the Souls experience, and other developers have done the same with their games. It's on us as consumers to not just take these things at face value and lump everything even remotely similar in execution as a "clone" or "borrowing from". It's irresponsible, and it just makes it easier for media outlets to sell their opinion on these experiences because we accept such simple comparisons as the norm, failing to mature as both players and critics.

I don't think people really know what "Souls DNA" is. I know I sound like a pretentious douche, but you really need to consider more than just "weighty combat" or "stats/leveling" before you make claims like that. It's fine for you to enjoy both (all) games - I know I do - but there's really no need to compare. Of course you may feel some aspects are familiar, but just because there are some more unique aspects that are only familiar to a handful of games doesn't mean their "entire basic mechanical structure" is the same.

"Game feel" is a nebulous expression, but I really think we should try and pin that down as a community, in order to define and describe the games we love. Otherwise it's just by-the-numbers evaluation and like-for-like comparisons that don't really help anyone understand either game in question.

My review for Cubed3 is up.
http://www.cubed3.com/review/3553/1/nioh-playstation-4.html

(Didn't get a review copy, hence the lateness)

9/10

I like your introductory paragraph. "Only somewhat exaggerated" haha

 

[lowhighkang_LHK]

My review for Cubed3 is up.
http://www.cubed3.com/review/3553/1/nioh-playstation-4.html

(Didn't get a review copy, hence the lateness)



9/10

Nice review. Like your writing style. Keep it up!

 

[Sanctuary]

My review for Cubed3 is up.
http://www.cubed3.com/review/3553/1/nioh-playstation-4.html

(Didn't get a review copy, hence the lateness)



9/10

Good review, but I don't actually understand this:

The music is also rather disappointing. While the tracks that play while exploring are sufficiently moody, the boss themes lack thematic impact.

Some of the best music, other than the Region specific themes is during the boss fights. It's also one of the few times where more than just ambient, "mood music" is actually being played too.

 

[lowhighkang_LHK]

Good review, but I don't actually understand this:



Some of the best music, other than the Region specific themes is during the boss fights. It's also one of the few times where more than just ambient, "mood music" is actually being played too.

Yeah, boss music right here is legit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_nY7iH-3rQ&t=43s

 

[silva1991]

Not just boss music, but also music before obtaining spirits is so good.

 

[RexNovis]

What you folks are describing is almost entirely surface-level. Stats, equipment weight ratio, combat, etc. might be more system-level, but they certainly aren't "lifted" from Dark Souls.

You might also immediately think shrine=bonfire or grave=bloodstain, but these sorts of things aren't exclusive to Souls, neither were they necessarily pioneered by it.

As others have said, there are a lot of existing mechanics that From incorporated to create the Souls experience, and other developers have done the same with their games. It's on us as consumers to not just take these things at face value and lump everything even remotely similar in execution as a "clone" or "borrowing from". It's irresponsible, and it just makes it easier for media outlets to sell their opinion on these experiences because we accept such simple comparisons as the norm, failing to mature as both players and critics.

I don't think people really know what "Souls DNA" is. I know I sound like a pretentious douche, but you really need to consider more than just "weighty combat" or "stats/leveling" before you make claims like that. It's fine for you to enjoy both (all) games - I know I do - but there's really no need to compare. Of course you may feel some aspects are familiar, but just because there are some more unique aspects that are only familiar to a handful of games doesn't mean their "entire basic mechanical structure" is the same.

"Game feel" is a nebulous expression, but I really think we should try and pin that down as a community, in order to define and describe the games we love. Otherwise it's just by-the-numbers evaluation and like-for-like comparisons that don't really help anyone understand either game in question.

Agreed. A lot of what makes a Souls game is the world and lore building and the way that the story is told via often ambiguous and vicarious ways. Theres a level of history and importance imbued in both the world and the charactes that simply is not present in Nioh. The result is that Nioh often feels like the antithesis of what one would expect from a From Soft title in this vein. While thats not say Nioh is bad or lesser than it is just offers a very different method of storytelling and world building than the games it seemingly draws some inspiration from.

Also, to me, Nioh feels arcadey in ways that Souls never has. A lot of that might have to do with the change from connected hub style systems to a mission select system complete with hard mode modifiers and an emphasis on loot collection. The emphasis in Nioh is clearly on the combat and loot systems itself such that you would find in infinitely replayable old school arcade titles whereas souls in comparison places higher importance on the world the character seeks to overcome in their quest, its distinct set of rules and their place/role in it. Now to be clear thats not to say that combat isnt an important part of Souls titles its just that its just that there is a clear importance placed on the world and lore that does not exist in Nioh whereas its clear that much more thought and emphasis/dev time was placed on the honing of its various intricate combat systems. Nioh demands players pursue mastery with their combat whereas souls games demands players master the very world itself. Both offer the player different points to engage themselves with and dissect.

So yes I would agree that while there are many surface level game design similarities the end result are titles that feel remarkably different from one another due to the goals and priorities of the development teams involved and I couldn't be happier that both exist as they both offer something inherently unique for fans of ARPGs. Its a damn good time to be a fan of the genre.

 

[B-Genius]

Cheers for having my back, Rex

You're absolutely right; both about world building in Souls and the more arcadey nature of Nioh. Those are already two words that I've barely seen anyone use to describe either game, and yet they do a good job of suggesting brand new lines of thought that can be explored in order to describe each game properly, on its own merits.

People might be reading these posts and thinking "It's all just semantics. Both games are fun, and that's what matters." I can't argue with that, but I think we owe it to ourselves (as players/developers/journalists invested in this industry/hobby) to be more expressive when describing what we love.

Those who write about games for a living in particular can be held accountable for the kind of language that gets used and starts to trend. Seeing as this is a review thread, I'm focusing more on them. I think we should be more observant of the games we play, and be more critical when it comes to describing our experiences.

 

[Jawbreaker]

: D

 

[Inuhanyou]

: D

Critic score goes up a point, user score loses a point

 

[orochi91]

: D

Awww yeaaaaaa




Nioh with that clutch bump.

 

[crimilde]

: D

Yessss!

Edit: Two reviews less than Horizon so still #2, but hey they're tied now.

 

[Deku Tree]

Omg Nioh matched Horizon on meta

 

[sackninja]

Yessss!

Edit: Two reviews less than Horizon so still #2, but hey they're tied now.

It's actually because Horizon is on like 88.9 and this just crossed up to around 88.1. This can be seen on the all time list on metacritic.

 

[Peroroncino]

Omg Nioh matched Horizon on meta

It deserves to surpass it.

 

[DenogginizerOS]

What a phenomenal time to be a PS4 owner. Nioh is my game of this generation.

 

[bigjig]

What pushed it up? The Edge review?

 

[MegaSackman]

What pushed it up? The Edge review?

I believe it was GameCritics Review (9.5)

 

[crimilde]

It's actually because Horizon is on like 88.9 and this just crossed up to around 88.1. This can be seen on the all time list on metacritic.

Ah I didn't know that, thanks for clearing it up!

 

[shadow_shogun]

Previously Recorded (Red Letter Media guys)Review? Watch at your own discretion.

 

[Kudo]

Previously Recorded (Red Letter Media guys)Review? Watch at your own discretion.

"One of the most blatant and unapologetic rip-offs..." Can't watch more than the first minute, if this is satire on the "Angry Gamer" trend these guys are not very good at it.
Looking at the comments they seem to say it's "slow-paced" further in their "review", yeah, no.
Thanks for the warning.

 

[Peroroncino]

Wait, Horizon is already available in stores?

It is in many places.

But I get your point, however I don't need to play it to know that it's not my type of game, with all the towers and your usual open world activities.

Previously Recorded (Red Letter Media guys)Review? Watch at your own discretion.

This is probably the worst review I've seen in a long time, it's simply too ignorant. The gameplay they recorded shows they just mashed square button, but what took the cake for me was saying that you can't easily change stances in this game.

They also focused too much on why Bloodborne is better, so comments like 'it isn't open world', 'you can't create your character' or 'there's this story that isn't told like in souls' are cringe inducing.

 

[Radical Edward]

Cheers for having my back, Rex

You're absolutely right; both about world building in Souls and the more arcadey nature of Nioh. Those are already two words that I've barely seen anyone use to describe either game, and yet they do a good job of suggesting brand new lines of thought that can be explored in order to describe each game properly, on its own merits.

People might be reading these posts and thinking "It's all just semantics. Both games are fun, and that's what matters." I can't argue with that, but I think we owe it to ourselves (as players/developers/journalists invested in this industry/hobby) to be more expressive when describing what we love.

Those who write about games for a living in particular can be held accountable for the kind of language that gets used and starts to trend. Seeing as this is a review thread, I'm focusing more on them. I think we should be more observant of the games we play, and be more critical when it comes to describing our experiences.

I'm a big fan of both game series and i'm thinking Nioh might dethrone BB for my favorite in the series. I love how this game builds on what came before it and despite missing the mark in a few areas, it succeeds on so many other levels. I'm super excited for the dlc and nioh 2. You would be wrong, however, to ignore how much this game owes to the soulsborne series. A few nuances and intricacies cannot divorce it from those games. It shares the same chasis, so to speak and no matter how many superfluous little details are brought up, you have to acknowledge that. Yes, many things allow thisgame to stand on its own and even surpass the soulsgames in certain areas but it's a souls game at its core.

 

[Drencrom]

Previously Recorded (Red Letter Media guys)Review? Watch at your own discretion.

I really like RLM, but man their video game reviews are pretty damn lame time to time. Several complaints here are pretty dumb or just pedantic. The ranged aiming is awkward because you have to hold down the aim button L2 and shoot with the R2 and aim with the analog stick...? That is every fucking game with shooting mechanics ever, it's incredibly fluid and intuitive, especially compared to souls. The Ki stamina regen system is dumb because you have to either look at the stamina bar or the blue particles surrounding your character, which apparently always gets you hit? Hmm, no? You don't even have to look at the bar or the particles, you can always just press R1 right after a combo (which won't always get you the best possible Ki pulse but a Ki pulse in itself is much better than not doing it). I personally learned fairly early on the timing when you should press R1 depending on how long your combo was and I'm now doing it instinctively.

I love Bloodborne, but they're talking and comparing Nioh to it and the Souls games to a comedic degree in this review. "Oh it's not open world, and no character creation etc etc".