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*NO BOOK SPOILERS* Game of Thrones - Season 2 - Sundays on HBO (read rules in OP)
- Thread starter Cornballer
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Dreams-Visions
Member
SMH. Anyways I really didn't have a problem with it until I started watching with my family and realized most of them aren't necessary and decrease the audience for this show. I wan't everyone to be able to watch. I don't mind sex and sexual situations, just keep it a little more classy and covered and only when required.
walbertsmith
Member
Honestly though, this is more HBO's M.O. versus something singular with Game of Thrones. Boardwalk Empire, Rome, Wire, Hung, etc. They've never been shy about being a bit gratuitous, and Game of Thrones is a platform that facilitates that.
You simply cannot watch a good HBO show and at the same time avoid gratuitous sex and violence. Be it The Sopranos, The Wire, Rome, Deadwood, etc. From your previous post, your family reacted childishly to the show and made you feel bad. It's their problem, not yours or the show's. If they can't handle it then they don't deserve the awesome ride that is to come.
If they make you feel that uncomfortable, watch it without them. The show isn't going to have less sexual content at any forseeable time.
Foliorum Viridum
Banned
The raw sex in the show matches the rest of the universe. It's a brutal place and reserved sex scenes would be out of place. They don't hold back with the language or violence and neither should they with the sex.
General thoughts on Episode 2:
Is it just me who struggles with names in this show? When I'm watching I know who people are talking about, but after I stop I couldn't name 75% of them. I'm bad with names as it is but there's just so many characters to keep track of in this show!
Gah, now I have a 2 week wait...
General thoughts on Episode 2:
Much better than the first! I was glad that Arya got quite a bit of screentime, although I must admit you really do have suspend disbelief that only one person has realised she's a girl. Other than that, I can see quite a good friendship developing with the bastard, especially since they're both hunted.
Not sure what to make of that ending at all. I suppose the White Walkers have been roaming that area for quite a while if he's giving them the male babies? I think it's a bit of a red herring with Jon's leader also being there, though, as I can't see him being a "bad" character.
Not sure what to make of that ending at all. I suppose the White Walkers have been roaming that area for quite a while if he's giving them the male babies? I think it's a bit of a red herring with Jon's leader also being there, though, as I can't see him being a "bad" character.
Is it just me who struggles with names in this show? When I'm watching I know who people are talking about, but after I stop I couldn't name 75% of them. I'm bad with names as it is but there's just so many characters to keep track of in this show!
Gah, now I have a 2 week wait...
It is not just you and I ignore spelling altogether.The raw sex in the show matches the rest of the universe. It's a brutal place and reserved sex scenes would be out of place. They don't hold back with the language or violence and neither should they with the sex.
Is it just me who struggles with names in this show? When I'm watching I know who people are talking about, but after I stop I couldn't name 75% of them. I'm bad with names as it is but there's just so many characters to keep track of in this show!
Gah, now I have a 2 week wait...
If you are loving a show on HBO, then there's no way anyone could be accused of being a prude. The point is there is a fundamental weakness in the graphic sex scenes in this show and only on some occasions. I wouldn't have a problem with the sex scenes if there was more of a point to them. This is seperate from the nudity which should be expected in a brothel. A conversation about the sex worker's job performance is not and it's a weak way to explain a troy or symbolize a character.
If it's just portraying life there, then they should show all the old people having sex too. They don't do that because we already know what goes down in the Kingdoms and, as in other HBO shows, it's something lurid that they can get away with.
Even after I got rid of the more immature family members and just watched with those who wanted to watch, it was still akward at those sex scenes. I have no problem if it is in the book but they shouldn't just add scenes for the sake of it or make them extra graphic. I think there can be a better middle ground.
ElectricBlue187
Member
The raw sex in the show matches the rest of the universe. It's a brutal place and reserved sex scenes would be out of place. They don't hold back with the language or violence and neither should they with the sex.
General thoughts on Episode 2:
Much better than the first! I was glad that Arya got quite a bit of screentime, although I must admit you really do have suspend disbelief that only one person has realised she's a girl. Other than that, I can see quite a good friendship developing with the bastard, especially since they're both hunted.
Not sure what to make of that ending at all. I suppose the White Walkers have been roaming that area for quite a while if he's giving them the male babies? I think it's a bit of a red herring with Jon's leader also being there, though, as I can't see him being a "bad" character.
Is it just me who struggles with names in this show? When I'm watching I know who people are talking about, but after I stop I couldn't name 75% of them. I'm bad with names as it is but there's just so many characters to keep track of in this show!
Gah, now I have a 2 week wait...
EP2
I don't understand why the white walkers would make a "deal" with him for male babies. He must get them all the damn time and then it makes the walkers seem less terrifying if they can be bargained with
bengraven
Member
Wrong. They're rushing everyone else's stories. Few people get more than one scene in each episode this season, but she gets plenty of time in this episode.0000
"People have sex, and they should show it" is a weak argument. People shit too; should the viewers have to watch that?
Everything that the author/director/show-runner chooses to depict in a work of fiction should exist for a reason. There are millions upon millions of details that you leave out when you're creating a work of fiction. Nothing should be there "just because".
If a sex scene is included, there should be a point to it. The scene with Jaime fucking Cersei in the tower in S01E01 had a point to it. The scene with Theon fucking Ros in the first season had less of a point, but it still made sense.
The brothel training scene in S02E01 had no point except to lead into the massacre scene. Thus it felt cheap and gratuitous.
Everything that the author/director/show-runner chooses to depict in a work of fiction should exist for a reason. There are millions upon millions of details that you leave out when you're creating a work of fiction. Nothing should be there "just because".
If a sex scene is included, there should be a point to it. The scene with Jaime fucking Cersei in the tower in S01E01 had a point to it. The scene with Theon fucking Ros in the first season had less of a point, but it still made sense.
The brothel training scene in S02E01 had no point except to lead into the massacre scene. Thus it felt cheap and gratuitous.
ElectricBlue187
Member
Well it showed that Littlefinger is really a shrewd and pitiless man, but we already knew that.
You have no taste in women.
I'm glad it's not just me. I brought this up last season and ones were questioning the strength of my marriage lol.
I just watch most HBO/Starz shows alone.
This is my issue with it. They're using way deep/shallow imagery to display something that is already known.
The eunich watching them in that scene would have been more interesting although it still wouldn't need to be 10% of the show.
Dance Inferno
Unconfirmed Member
How are people watching episode 2 already? Is it out?
Either by accident or illegally. I dont think it's available anymore otherwise.
Mammoth Jones
Member
So wait...people getting:
-Disemboweled
-Decapitated
-Dismembered
-Tongues ripped out
-Blood and gore poured everywhere
Are all A-OK, but a nude scene and some moaning is too over-the-top and unnecessary? Bullshit. The show is based off the books of course but I'm not going to fault the show's creators for taking some liberty with the material. The show is a visceral feast on the eyes. It's ok to show the violence and physicality of that world.
If a person can't or won't deal with that and won't watch the show I don't think it's the show's fault for not appealing to them. It's just a matter of taste. Would I show this to my 7 year old nephew? No. But it'd be because I didn't want him to see ANY of it. Not just the nudity. But that's my choice as a viewer.
-Disemboweled
-Decapitated
-Dismembered
-Tongues ripped out
-Blood and gore poured everywhere
Are all A-OK, but a nude scene and some moaning is too over-the-top and unnecessary? Bullshit. The show is based off the books of course but I'm not going to fault the show's creators for taking some liberty with the material. The show is a visceral feast on the eyes. It's ok to show the violence and physicality of that world.
If a person can't or won't deal with that and won't watch the show I don't think it's the show's fault for not appealing to them. It's just a matter of taste. Would I show this to my 7 year old nephew? No. But it'd be because I didn't want him to see ANY of it. Not just the nudity. But that's my choice as a viewer.
Foliorum Viridum
Banned
Ep 2:
Yeah, I dunno, that's just the first thing I thought of. Every other village was abandoned - he must know/do something that keeps him safe? I agree that making a deal with them takes away a lot of their appeal as evil monsters, though. If you can bargain with something it instantly gets less scary. Let's hope I'm wrong!
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Cornballer
Member
- WiC.net: HBO addresses early episode release rumors
We just happen to have a lot of Polish and Dutch GAFfers watching the show this week.
The thing is that all that violence exists to advance the story or develop a character. You don't see random people getting their heads lopped off just because.
I wonder if the reactions will change when more people actually see Episode 2. The scenes didn't really "bother" me but
.
it was hard to care about them because they provided nothing in them. Remove them from the episode and you literally lose nothing. At worst, you don't see Theon be a dick and you lose nothing from the brothel scene if it's just Littlefinger's "talk" with Ros
Seems legit.
Squall ASF
Member
I think all the slamming of sex in this show is funny. It's just as much a tool in establishing the world and how people interact as anything else that happens. Strong passion is displayed in all manner in this world. Sex, violence, political ambition, etc. Seeing how frivolously a character has sex, how many different people, if they sleep with whores, etc. most certainly speaks about their character and how society is in general in this world. Furthermore, sex can also convey power and that's what this show is all about. Sex is integral whether squeamish people want to admit it or not.
I'm pretty sure that I would stop watching the show if I had to watch even a 5 second long disemboweling so I'm not sure if that's comparable. I agree that if one can't wath that then it's not their problem. That doesn't mean the show is flawless as a result of having it in there. It's just a flaw in storytelling imo.
How about
wiping semen off of a whore's lips?
Like I said, it'll be interesting to see what happens when more people watch the episode :x
Foliorum Viridum
Banned
thestopsign
Member
EP2:
I'm not saying those sex scenes have any more purpose than showing boobs, but sometimes they are used to establish character or I think in Theon's case show where he thinks he is in society and how he is greeted when he gets back to his home. He was clearly expecting a warm welcome as he got with some captain's daughter (who probably only liked him because he was a lord). It sort of creates a bit of contrast. Plus there is the possibility that that scene will have a bigger meaning further down the line. The only thing I think would qualify as excessive was Littlefinger wiping the cum off that whores face.
He can't deal with sex scenes? What?
I'm not usually one to judge but what.
Arjen
Member
EP2
I agree, it's a small and (filthy) detail that really sets the tone for his character.
i was more grossed out by the fact that Theon fingered his sister.
i was more grossed out by the fact that Theon fingered his sister.
Foliorum Viridum
Banned
Ep 2:
I got a laugh out of that when he realised who she was, haha. I think that tied in nicely with the previous scene on the ship though; he thought nothing of fucking anything that walked and it's come back to bite him in the ass. I wonder how that's going to play out, I can't imagine it turning in to another incest angle since he looked disgusted, so it will probably add to the leverage his sister has over him when he wants to take over the attack.
walbertsmith
Member
Pretty much. The attitude tends to be a reflection of American culture. In Europe, violence is heavily censored and more disdained, whereas in the U.S. no one bats an eye. Whereas the naked body is far more prevalent in Europe when here there's a national uproar over a bare nipple.
Taken objectively, it makes far more sense to be offended at violence since that's actually more abhorrent to, you know.... living. But Americans have been desensitized to it, while (natural) nudity is almost universally panned.
It is what it is, and HBO isn't going to change their decades long M.O. over one show.
Huh. Well, I guess. I felt that
the weight of the scene was carried through his "threat" to Ros; the stuff before it was fluff that didn't really add anything. But, I'm not really bothered by it myself, just found it unnecessary
To be fair, I think I was more bothered because she wasn't all that attractive :x And good point for Theon, I guess I just thought that the rest of the scenes (once arriving, that is) painted that picture for us and we already know what kind of dick he is from season 1
MMaRsu
Member
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Yep.
How a particular character treats sex is just as important as how he/she treats war, death, honor, justice, etiquette, laws, etc.
There are numerous things that the more bawdy scenes tell us about the world and about the characters involved in that world.
Show, don't tell.
walbertsmith said:
That's the thng- it's not necessarily important at all. It denotes a character trait I guess, but the trait is already well known. It's not about beigng uptight about sex.
Finding out that Renly has the knight as a lover last season is an important scene, sound effects or not. It tells us something about the character and how it ties in politically to everything.
Overall, it's not required to see what a character's sex life is like to know the character. We haven't needed that with any major character yet. It's padding and to mask it as padding (Which on HBO is actually good enough), they attach important dialogue to it. It comes off a bad sex scene that also is pretentious. Just showing a couple of characters humping and talking later does wonders for the flow of the story without removing the sex and nudity.
I can't think of too many scenes that explain the world in a way that wasn't already known if not for the sex scene. Brothels are Midieval Fantasy 101 and it's the most mundane part of the story. I don't regret them being there since they are a normal part of the society and the book, as a story device they come across as weak occasionally.
walbertsmith
Member
I definitely understand your point of view but I do feel that the sex/nudity scenes are specifically chosen with certain characters to illustrate a (usually) darker aspect of their nature.
Theon Greyjoy: Scenes with Ros the prostitute
We know he's a Ward of the Starks from the Greyjoy rebellion. He's very close with Robb and looks to be well treated from Ned Stark, but it's clear that being a ward has taken a toll, especially since he's constantly reminded (derided) from others. We also know he's a wildcard from his scenes with saving Bran, and his constant sniping with Jon Snow.
Viserys Targaryen: Scene with Daenerys, and with Daenerys' handmaiden (who was implied to be a former prostitute)
Don't need to explain the character here; douche to the highest power.
Renly Baratheon: Scene with Loras Tyrell
Haven't seen too much of him, but remember when Ned asked him who would be king if Joffrey were seized? Renly stood up straighter and said something to the effect of "Well, me of course. I am beloved by the people." While what he's saying is probably true, it also does display a (large) hint of hubris that was being cultivated by Loras Tyrell.
Robert Baratheon: Scene with prostitutes
Don't need to explain his vices here either... unabashed in his love for both liquor and women, and ended up succumbing to both.
Peter Baelish: Scenes in brothel
Besides the fact that he owns these brothels, going so far as to dictate the progression of a sexual act while expounding upon his romantic past shows he's got a twisted sense of priorities. Fairly complex character with motivations that aren't always made clear.
Note that all of the above characters were involved with more gratuitous sex scenes. How about other major characters? Jon Snow, Ned Stark, Caitlyn Stark... nothing gratuitous here.
Also, Cersei and Jaime's scene would be an example of sex as an important plot device but *not* gratuitous (especially since Lena Headey has done nudity before). I'm not going to say that HBO/GoT doesn't enjoy having gratuitous sex scenes, but here was a perfect opportunity to "showcase" (for lack of a better word) an actress comfortable with nudity in a debased situation that is abjectly immoral... yet they held back with the gratuity. Why? While we can all agree that Cersei is pretty much a cold, calculating c**t, her motivations are entirely clear and driven by her extreme love and loyalty to her family. And despite her despicable actions, she carries herself with an unbreakable dignity and is ultra self aware (why I think her scene was *not* gratuitous).
And the notable exception from all of the above is, of course, Tyrion Lannister. Shunned by many, pitied by most... he's relied heavily on a sardonic wit to cope with a world that hates him. He's also turned to lots and lots of prostitutes, even detailing a horrifying story where his family used a prostitute to shame him. But here again is Tyrion, looking like he's falling in love with yet another prostitute. Yes, while we've seen Shae nude (she *is* a prostitute after all... and apparently a IRL former porn star), I would hardly consider her scenes with Tyrion "gratuitous". Again, another opportunity for HBO to go all out (with another actress capable of it) yet they're showing restraint. Future episodes could prove me wrong of course, but the relationship between Shae and Tyrion feels significant enough that showing "gratuitous sex" for the sake of "gratuitous sex" feels like it would cheapen it. Contrast that with how the other characters are portrayed.
I never really thought that deep about the sex/nudity scenes in GoT until this thread, but the more I think about it the more it makes sense to me how HBO/the producers have utilized it in character development. Yes, maybe they go over the top for some sensibilities, but without question they're important to the overall narrative.
They really do get a lot of mileage out of their sexposition scenes from Season 1 and none of them really do feel all that out of place (or unwarranted); they do tell a lot through some of them even if some of "what" the characters say isn't actually that important. Again, I'm really curious what will happen when more people see Episode 2 considering the current talk of it.
Squall ASF
Member
You're missing the point. It's not about sex connecting the plot threads together. It's about sex ADDING to the setting and culture of this world. Adds another layer to the characters performing it. Sex is just one of the elements that make up this world and give us an impression of how things are run and makes it more vivid.
Cornballer
Member
New episode tonight.
That was my intial point. Sex & nudity add to the setting for sure for an HBO show (However, I will say this show would be fine on AMC or FX as well with their limitations in tact. It's all about location on the TV dial). No one is asking for sex and nudity to be removed from the show.
The particular scenes I dislike I dislike because they are horribly staged, badly acted, add nothing to the characterization, the extra layer is that the actors know how to moan and slurp, & are still censored enough to lack vividness. This would all change if the principle characters actually engaged in the things that make their characters "shine". The show holds back from that because the main thrust of the scenes are for purely sexual purposes. the one in the first episode screams of "Welp, it's the opening episode of the second season. Time to show the boobies & stuff..."
There is no real gamble to them and it's not cutting edge.
That's true but that doesn't change that they are used poorly as a storytelling device. Besides a series doesn't have to punctuate the depravity unless it's new (The baby killing or the guy who weds his daughters). The mundane depravity reveals itself each episode.Zeliard said:
It might be a good sign because this means the producers & writers focus more on the actual story. Their clumsy handling of the sex scenes could mean they just force it in there for "setting".
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