Support NeoGAF

[Lunatic_Gamer]

With the toing and froing never ending, Guerrilla are back mere weeks later with another big Patch. Full VRR support, new modes, improved settings, 120fps. Just how good is this new update and should you dive back in?

 

[Jose92]

Wow NXGamer that was dam quick thank you for your hard work.

 

[MadPanda]

Summary?

 

[jroc74]

Very impressive.

They arent just fixing bugs, issues...they are literally making the game look and perform better.

Amazing support from the devs.

 

[Lysandros]

Pretty impressive the amount of headroom the machine has in some sections, especially considering the graphic complexity.

 

[solidus12]

Why can't the 40fps mode be unlocked with VRR like in Ratchet and Spider-Man?

 

[PixelatedBeast]

Why can't the 40fps mode be unlocked with VRR like in Ratchet and Spider-Man?

Huh? I though those two games already had 40fps unlocked with VRR?

 

[01011001]

Pretty impressive the amount of headroom the machine has in some sections, especially considering the graphic complexity.

not really that surprising.
if you want to have a firm lock to the framerate you will always have a lot of headroom.

see the RT mode in Control.

(btw, that game could use a VRR mode and/or a 40fps mode... it's basically unplayable in the 30fps mode imo)

it will of course drop down to close to 30fps in very demanding scenes, but it can reach almost a full 60 in others.

same is true with Spider-Man and Horizon here, there are scenes where the VRR mode will be basically at 60fps or only slightly above.

that's naturally what happens if you make 100% sure that even the most demanding stuff still doesn't drop below your target framerate

 

[solidus12]

Huh? I though those two games already had 40fps unlocked with VRR?

Spider-man and Ratchet have an unlocked 40fps with VRR.
What about Horizon?

 

[SlimySnake]

really wanted to know the resolution count for the balanced 40 fps mode. meh.

 

[Mr Moose]

really wanted to know the resolution count for the balanced 40 fps mode. meh.

Won't it be 4k like the 30fps mode?

 

[Arioco]

I think this is the first time I didn't like an NXGamer video. Really, I don't know if it's just me but I watched the video and still I don't know the resolution of the different modes, or if the 40 fps mode can be unlocked with VRR like Insomniac did with Ratchet and Clank and Spiderman.

 

[Crispy Gamer]

Damn that HFR mode looks great

 

[MightySquirrel]

That 120 mode is worthless wow. Can barely hold 60 in places. So is there 60 VRR locked mode or not?

 

[funking giblet]

s. So is there 60 VRR locked mode or not?

What? As long as the FPS is above 60fps, VRR is ok. ..

Locked Variable Frame Rate... yes ok

 

[MightySquirrel]

What? As long as the FPS is above 60fps, VRR is ok. ..

Locked Variable Frame Rate... yes ok

Locked 60 VRR would give so much smoother experience is not even close. The issue here with unlocked framerate is that gpu is maxing out and it's adding upto 40% of input lag basically negating the advantage of low input VRR gives over v-sync.

 

[BlitzerRadic]

Spider-man and Ratchet have an unlocked 40fps with VRR.
What about Horizon?

How is that possible when VRR minimum is 48 fps?

 

[Bo_Hazem]

really wanted to know the resolution count for the balanced 40 fps mode. meh.

Glad you love crossgen.

 

[BackBackPunch]

Locked 60 VRR would give so much smoother experience is not even close. The issue here with unlocked framerate is that gpu is maxing out and it's adding upto 40% of input lag basically negating the advantage of low input VRR gives over v-sync.

I'm not sure you understand VRR or what its purpose is

 

[FUBARx89]

How is that possible when VRR minimum is 48 fps?

Some space magic where they uncap the framerate when VRR is enabled along with 120hz display.

It's pretty impressive. Even works on fidelity mode and pushes the FPS above 60.

 

[MightySquirrel]

I'm not sure you understand VRR or what its purpose is

I'll try one more time. When you're maxing out your gpu you increase the input lag by ~40% which is whats happening on that useless 120 vrr mode.

Look at the test done here:




As you can see from that video even when the game is running at 85 fps you get so much higher input lag than the game running at a steady locked much lower 60 fps.

 

[solidus12]

Some space magic where they uncap the framerate when VRR is enabled along with 120hz display.

It's pretty impressive. Even works on fidelity mode and pushes the FPS above 60.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but have you seen Spider-man on performance mode in 120hz with VRR? Framerate reaches 100fps
Same with the fidelity 40fps mode; it can go up to 50fps...

 

[yamaci17]

I'll try one more time. When you're maxing out your gpu you increase the input lag by ~40% which is whats happening on that useless 120 vrr mode.

Look at the test done here:




As you can see from that video even when the game is running at 85 fps you get so much higher input lag than the game running at a steady locked much lower 60 fps.

though, this lag can be reduced with various methods (as we see with nvidia reflex api). maybe devs also do certain things to reduce gpu induced input lag under such scenarios, but just a guess. reflex api is easy to setup for most devs, and it even works on Maxwell GPUs, so I guess it is possible that maybe consoles have such a thing on their GDKs or something

tho i cant say for sure until i try it myself on a console (never likely happen). tho i can also attest to that video and you, %99 gpu + 80 fps is heavier, less smooth and laggy to play than %80 gpu+ 60 fps lock. this is why I adore 40, 50 and many other framecaps alongside with VRR. only problem is that it can be really hard to anticipate when GPU will max out and when it will not, though. so I hope Reflex or similar things became more frequent with games

some games also have low gpu lag by default even at %99 usage, though. forza 5 and psychonauts 2 comes to my mind. i have to test them out with actual data though.

 

[BennyBlanco]

isn't VRR a system wide thing? I don't understand why they had to do anything to support it. Never heard a PC game not supporting VRR.

 

[Crispy Gamer]

How is that possible when VRR minimum is 48 fps?

LFC apparently it was to be enabled by the dev unlike Xbox where it's system level but in the end it's the same result.

 

[MightySquirrel]

though, this lag can be reduced with various methods (as we see with nvidia reflex api). maybe devs also do certain things to reduce gpu induced input lag under such scenarios, but just a guess. reflex api is easy to setup for most devs, and it even works on Maxwell GPUs, so I guess it is possible that maybe consoles have such a thing on their GDKs or something

tho i cant say for sure until i try it myself on a console (never likely happen). tho i can also attest to that video and you, %99 gpu + 80 fps is heavier, less smooth and laggy to play than %80 gpu+ 60 fps lock. this is why I adore 40, 50 and many other framecaps alongside with VRR. only problem is that it can be really hard to anticipate when GPU will max out and when it will not, though. so I hope Reflex or similar things became more frequent with games

some games also have low gpu lag by default even at %99 usage, though. forza 5 and psychonauts 2 comes to my mind. i have to test them out with actual data though.

Coincidentally the input reduction modes [from Nvidia and AMD] are covered in that same video and they do reduce input delay when gpu is maxed out, but by a tiny insignificant bit.

 

[SlimySnake]

isn't VRR a system wide thing? I don't understand why they had to do anything to support it. Never heard a PC game not supporting VRR.

It is. Every single PS5 game aside from HFW and GT7 supported it from the OS. It's possible that the PS5 SKU of this game was not a true PS5 port and needed to be patched to support VRR. The game had fast loading so clearly it was running on a PS5 SDK but it showed up on LG tv sets as 60 hz FIXED which is basically what all BC PS4 titles show up as.

 

[yamaci17]

Coincidentally the input reduction modes [from Nvidia and AMD] are covered in that same video and they do reduce input delay when gpu is maxed out, but by a tiny insignificant bit.

yes, but i think those are driver-induced lag reducers, and compability is a bit wack (on nv side, it only works for dx9-dx11 games, for example. tho i heard on amd side it also works for dx12 games)

reflex is muuuch better, i can definetely felt it severely reduced the input delay in god of war when the gpu is simply maxxed out,

based on this data, reflex is indeed nearly achieves what you want to achieve with a framecap. actually, reflex indeed reduces your framerate to succeed that, which some people think of it as useless whereas it practically acts as a "dynamic" framecap that makes sure your gpu is under max utilization !



i will provide god of war / fh5 comparisons in upcoming post

 

[onQ123]

Locked 60 VRR would give so much smoother experience is not even close. The issue here with unlocked framerate is that gpu is maxing out and it's adding upto 40% of input lag basically negating the advantage of low input VRR gives over v-sync.

If it's locked there is no point in VRR do you know what the V stand for in VRR?

 

[MightySquirrel]

I stand corrected then. Looks like the very best input reduction implementation can indeed reduce it significantly, but with a simple 60 fps cap on a VRR screen not only do you get lowest input, but a constant input delay as well and that is still preferable over uncapped 120 vrr mode with variable delay. I have a serious doubts that every developer will bother implementing new input reduction tech in their games not to mention is such quality method even available there.

 

[jorgejjvr]

So what's the new current best mode to play this on?

 

[yamaci17]

starting off with fh5

at 65 fps with %99 gpu load, we have 47.6 ms of input lag, which is actually really good, there are worse games with worse behaviours

when frames are capped to 55, indeed we have reduced input lag

god of war

so at 68 frames with max load, we get 50 ms input lag, which is not that bad, but can be better

reflex reduces the framerate, but also drastically reduces the input lag!

finally we have manual 56 fps cap which has similar lag to reflex

to my understanding, its practically doing the capping based on GPU headroom on the fly, which is very useful

as you said however, steady input lag may be more preferrable. and then again, it may also be hard to attain specific performance levels at times, especially on PC where most games lack proper dynamic resolution scaling. on consoles i guess what you want is very much feasible with dynamic resolution

 

[MightySquirrel]

If it's locked there is no point in VRR do you know what the V stand for in VRR?

VRR stands for variable referesh rate. It's advantage over V-sync is practically no additional input delay and you will have very hard time noticing small dips if at all in framerate unlike v-sync wheres every little dip results in a stutter. Capping framerate is highly recommended on VRR displays for a constant input as high variation will still be perceivable as 'stutters'.

 

[Clear]

Locked 60 VRR would give so much smoother experience is not even close. The issue here with unlocked framerate is that gpu is maxing out and it's adding upto 40% of input lag basically negating the advantage of low input VRR gives over v-sync.

You can't have "locked" and "variable" at the same time! Its a contradiction in terms.

 

[yamaci17]

You can't have "locked" and "variable" at the same time! Its a contradiction in terms.

actually, you kind of can

you know, vsync is very bad in terms of input lag for a reason, you practically force the games to wait for an entire duration of buffer so that it can sync perfectly. in reality, even at a 60 fps lock, games will have variable framerate, at microsecond intervals, they will go up and down between 59.8-60.2 FPS. so to sync it, devs usually use heavy input lag inducing vsyncs with extra buffer that forces the game to sync with the screen

with VRR, you can cap the game to 60 fps, but eliminate the vsync. so when the game go up and down between 59.8 and 60.2, your variable screen can do so too, practically achieving V-sync like function without the dreaded vsync input lag. that's what he practically means

 

[MightySquirrel]

yamaci17 I'm not sure how trustworthy rivatuner readings are on this though. Much like their power readings. But theres no better app for framecapping out there to achieve smooth gameplay.

 

[yamaci17]

yamaci17 I'm not sure how trustworthy rivatuner readings are on this though. Much like their power readings. But theres no better app for framecapping out there to achieve smooth gameplay.

its not actually rivatuner reading, its CapFrameX reading

CapFrameX

Benchmarking Tool - Record Frames per Second (FPS), Frametime and Sensors while running your favourite game. Analyse and plot the results, or share them with friends using our cloud service.

www.capframex.com

and i really trust this software, it even has a VRR monitoring function. my screen also has a refresh rate indicator. when i check these two, they exactly match, which surprised me, thinking that that would be impossible or something. for input lag, i also usually rely it, because whenever that value gets reduced, i can really feel input lag going down as well physically

 

[MightySquirrel]

You can't have "locked" and "variable" at the same time! Its a contradiction in terms.

Thats the good thing about VRR you can have a cap anywhere for that constant input. Console developers could have modes like 50 or 45 or 90. Much better than 120 mode wher fps are all over the place.

 

[MightySquirrel]

its not actually rivatuner reading, its CapFrameX reading

CapFrameX

Benchmarking Tool - Record Frames per Second (FPS), Frametime and Sensors while running your favourite game. Analyse and plot the results, or share them with friends using our cloud service.

www.capframex.com

and i really trust this software, it even has a VRR monitoring function. my screen also has a refresh rate indicator. when i check these two, they exactly match, which surprised me, thinking that that would be impossible or something. for input lag, i also usually rely it, because whenever that value gets reduced, i can really feel input lag going down as well physically

Nice. Thanks for sharing - I'll check it out. [I thought it's in RTSS]

 

[yamaci17]

Nice. Thanks for sharing - I'll check it out. [I thought it's in RTSS]

yeah it actually even estimates system-wide latency, monitor included. its rough estimation, but its usually in the ballpark
special k can also do a similar thing, calculating in-app latency only, but that's a hassle to setup for me

 

[MaKTaiL]

isn't VRR a system wide thing? I don't understand why they had to do anything to support it. Never heard a PC game not supporting VRR.

By support they mean adding an unlock FPS mode where VRR can really shine. Basically you can enable VRR for any native PS5 game but only a select few will truly benefit from it since most games are either locked 60 or locked 30.

 

[Clear]

actually, you kind of can

you know, vsync is very bad in terms of input lag for a reason, you practically force the games to wait for an entire duration of buffer so that it can sync perfectly. in reality, even at a 60 fps lock, games will have variable framerate, at microsecond intervals, they will go up and down between 59.8-60.2 FPS. so to sync it, devs usually use heavy input lag inducing vsyncs with extra buffer that forces the game to sync with the screen

with VRR, you can cap the game to 60 fps, but eliminate the vsync. so when the game go up and down between 59.8 and 60.2, your variable screen can do so too, practically achieving V-sync like function without the dreaded vsync input lag. that's what he practically means

What on earth do you think the variable in VRR refers to?

Vsync has got far less to do with lag than the buffering arrangement in use in the engine. By definition of the fact that the time between vsyncs is a constant, then its incapable of causing a delay longer than that constant-1. So 16.6ms for a common 60hz display.

Its inconsequential.

 

[In Cold Blood]

Just because Sony and MS advertised their consoles as being capable of 120fps doesn't mean they have to add it to games that arnt capable of it.
Leave these games 60fps and leave the 120fps for games like Ori.

 

[MightySquirrel]

What on earth do you think the variable in VRR refers to?

Vsync has got far less to do with lag than the buffering arrangement in use in the engine. By definition of the fact that the time between vsyncs is a constant, then its incapable of causing a delay longer than that constant-1. So 16.6ms for a common 60hz display.

Its inconsequential.

As you can see here with G-Sync [VRR module from Nvidia used in this case, but most VRR screens acts the same way] we see 40 ms, but as soon as you turn on V-Sync it jumps to 59 ms of input delay at the same screen refresh rate of 180 Hz:

In both cases same fps were maintained:



Care to explain this 47% increase in input delay simply going from VRR to V-sync. Cheers in advance matey.

 

[AGRacing]

PS5 VRR range is 48 - 120 hz. They'd have to have a floor of 48fps instead of 40 for that to work...

Locked 40 with balanced quality is a good option in such a case... and VRR can be used for 60 and 120 modes.

 

[Fess]

I stand corrected then. Looks like the very best input reduction implementation can indeed reduce it significantly, but with a simple 60 fps cap on a VRR screen not only do you get lowest input, but a constant input delay as well and that is still preferable over uncapped 120 vrr mode with variable delay. I have a serious doubts that every developer will bother implementing new input reduction tech in their games not to mention is such quality method even available there.

Have you actually noticed any high fps input delay?
I know I haven't and I've been using gsync since 2014. All I see is smooth as butter motion and that beats everything else imo.

Sadly I don't have a VRR capable TV, it can do 120hz though but without HDR and in 1080p, makes this update kinda meh tbh

 

[MidGenRefresh]

I already platinumed the game so not looking for more Horizon but will download this patch just to try it out for few minutes. I'll save another run for when the game is released on PC.

I just hope that every single Sony game from now on will get this kind of treatment and on day one, not half a year later.

 

[Fess]

I just hope that every single Sony game from now on will get this kind of treatment and on day one, not half a year later.

Yeah, makes me glad I didn't rush through it, only played 20 hours or so before Elden Ring made me take a break.

 

[MidGenRefresh]

Yeah, makes me glad I didn't rush through it, only played 20 hours or so before Elden Ring made me take a break.

I have no regrets. It was an excellent Ubisoft style open world (I enjoy these). I played in 30FPS and it just made me appreciate PC frames even more.

I hope that Vr game will be a hit too!

 

[Fess]

I have no regrets. It was an excellent Ubisoft style open world (I enjoy these). I played in 30FPS and it just made me appreciate PC frames even more.

I hope that Vr game will be a hit too!

Yeah I liked what I played (60fps) but it's nice knowing it'll be even better when I return.