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[2real4tv]

Morally it's wrong but how can you stop it, I would prefer for the doctors/nurses to be at the hospital than to be a someones private residence.

 

[way more]

In this scenario the rich are subsidizing some of the poor. They do this with their purchasing of luxury goods. If anything it's a step closer to pure socialism than capitalism.

 

[Stinkles]

Like, did the author actually go to medical school or is he just trying to pull a fast one on people who probably don't know how common this is?

This (unfortunately) happens all the friggin time in medicine. And yes, they get to stay regardless of their "blanket".

Of all the problems with the american system, this is not really one of them.

Anecdote time:

I have what they call "Cadillac" insurance. One of the best plans in the nation. I had spine surgery a few years ago, a significant one. The next morning, I woke up, couldn't walk, felt like I'd been in a car wreck, and couldn't even get to the bathroom myself to pee. But because of the coding of the surgery type, I was due to leave that morning. So they literally lifted me into a wheelchair, pushed me to the elevator and told my wife to give me percoset and tylenol, and waved goodbye. So you're right, people do abuse the system, all the time, but the system also abuses the people, all the time. Fun fact - the bill was itemized and I'll spare you the horror, but that tylenol? Two tablets, $50 - self-administered. And that was one of the more reasonable charges.

 

[Condom]

HONESTLY... this is kind of how I feel too.

I don't really see a problem with paying extra for luxury. We do it all the time- I pay more for a nicer airplane seat, a more comfortable car, better tasting food, higher quality clothing. While no one should be denied medical service if they're not able to pay, it doesn't mean that no one should be able to buy upgrades to medical services if they want.



It's more like more resources are going to the people that paid for it. Everyone else gets basic, standard medical care. It's not like, AFAIK, people are being denied care because the rich people are hogging it all.

What is better for society: that a rich person lies next to and gets treated as the normal folk or that little extra spending that rich person does?

Making having a lot of money linked to the right to a better treatment always and everywhere is making the rich be able to ignore suffering and thus act like psychopaths even if they are not psychopaths for they will never experience the impact of their actions to the rest of society.

 

[Omega]

Everyone coddles the rich.

Money changes how people see you, this is nothing new.

 

[way more]

What is better for society: that a rich person lies next to and gets treated as the normal folk or that little extra spending that rich person does?

Making having a lot of money linked to the right to a better treatment always and everywhere is making the rich be able to ignore suffering and thus act like psychopaths even if they are not psychopaths for they will never experience the impact of their actions to the rest of society.

But they are not just making more and having more money in this case. They are also charged more money. You can't force rich people to have a spiritual, empathetic moment that imbues the knowledge that we are all brothers. But you can charge his insurance $180 for breakfast service and spread the cost around.

In this case, the rich are treated differently because the service knows they can bill them differently. As in higher and more.

 

[Opto]

I remember a Scrubs episode about this. They're like whales for mobile games. Cater to them and milk them, just to keep hospital afloat. But when there's notable difference in medical results, it's basically saying the rich deserve to heal better

 

[UrokeJoe]

Everyone coddles the rich.

Money changes how people see you, this is nothing new.

Pretty much, and if you are a Saudi Prince it gets even better.

 

[Condom]

But they are not just making more and having more money in this case. They are also charged more money. You can't force rich people to have a spiritual, empathetic moment that imbues the knowledge that we are all brothers. But you can charge his insurance $180 for breakfast service and spread the cost around.

In this case, the rich are treated differently because the service knows they can bill them differently. As in higher and more.

Why can't you force them to do that? Pretty sure they lie next to working class people in my country.

You have no right to spend money in exchange for a service, being able to spend money for a good is something we can most certainly control.

 

[outunderthestars]

Why can't you force them to do that? Pretty sure they lie next to working class people in my country.

You have no right to spend money in exchange for a service, being able to spend money for a good is something we can most certainly control.

In the US spending money is considered a form of free speech.

When my daughter was born we spent more to go to a nicer hospital with a really nice labor and delivery unit. It was worth it then, and I'd gladly spend even more when my next child is born.

 

[Dalek]

Why can't you force them to do that? Pretty sure they lie next to working class people in my country.

You have no right to spend money in exchange for a service, being able to spend money for a good is something we can most certainly control.

This is cute.

 

[way more]

Why can't you force them to do that? Pretty sure they lie next to working class people in my country.

You have no right to spend money in exchange for a service, being able to spend money for a good is something we can most certainly control.

Why would you "force" a person when you could charge them an extravagant amount of money and use that money to pay for the help of others? Would you prefer a rich man sits next to a poor man as they recover, or that the rich man stays in a private room with a nice view as three poor men recover from an operation?

I don't want to control or force the morality that the men should have. I would rather give them the needed medical assistance.

This is cute.

If only those darn "red blankets" stayed out of the way we could get something like this done.

 

[Ri'Orius]

Why can't you force them to do that? Pretty sure they lie next to working class people in my country.

Oh you can definitely force them to share a room. But that won't necessarily cause the sort of life-changing epiphany that would better society. It's entirely possible that milking the rich to help keep the hospital afloat and able to treat poor patients is better for society as a whole.

 

[Condom]

Why would you "force" a person when you could charge them an extravagant amount of money and use that money to pay for the help of others? Would you prefer a rich man sits next to a poor man as they recover, or that the rich man stays in a private room with a nice view as three poor men recover from an operation?

I don't want to control or force the morality that the men should have. I would rather give them the needed medical assistance.

I already explained that.

Your point only makes sense in a system scarce of recourses for the poor. Do you not understand that making those resources scarce is a choice in of itself? It's obvious we have been taught different values since yours are much more intrenched in the values of liberal capitalism.

Oh you can definitely force them to share a room. But that won't necessarily cause the sort of life-changing epiphany that would better society. It's entirely possible that milking the rich to help keep the hospital afloat and able to treat poor patients is better for society as a whole.

That's up to scientific research to prove. I think, looking at historical records of rich people having to mix with the poor, my point makes more sense. How the rich think about the poor has much more influence on the world than a little extra money.

 

[way more]

I already explained that.

Your point only makes sense in a system scarce of recourses for the poor. Do you not understand that making those resources scarce is a choice in of itself? It's obvious we have been taught different values since yours are much more intrenched in the values of liberal capitalism.
.

I don't believe all scarcity is artificially created. Especially when we are talking about use of amazing medical technology, the education of doctors, and simple beds in hospitals. If you want to argue scarcity is man made that is one thing. But when you apply it to fMRI machines, arthroscopic surgery, or titanium hip replacements, then yes, scarcity exists.

 

[Liberty4all]

A "red blanket" tells the nurse that this is a vip patient. One with big pockets and one that can afford lengthy lawsuits.

The red blanket tells people that work in the system that this patient takes priority. Not just in terms of perks but in terms of staff care. Checking charts twice instead of once, of running a little quicker when they buzz, etc ... Nobody wants to be the one that screwed up on a VIPs care ... Even if it means cutting corners on non vip patients.

It definitely effects how care is delivered IMHO.

 

[Escape Goat]

There was a Star Trek Voyager episode like this.

 

[Dalek]

A "red blanket" tells the nurse that this is a vip patient. One with big pockets and one that can afford lengthy lawsuits.

The red blanket tells people that work in the system that this patient takes priority. Not just in terms of perks but in terms of staff care. Checking charts twice instead of once, of running a little quicker when they buzz, etc ... Nobody wants to be the one that screwed up on a VIPs care ... Even if it means cutting corners on non vip patients.

It definitely effects how care is delivered IMHO.

This is definitely how I read the article.

 

[Condom]

I guess I know what you're saying- that sometimes it takes staring into the face on inequality to understand the plight of the less fortunate, and to realize how privileged you are.

That being said, I'm still not okay with trying to force people to confront these things if they don't want to. I'm also still okay with allowing people to buy nicer, more luxurious goods, even if it's at the expense of not seeing how the "other side" lives.

I don't count healthcare as a luxury good, ever. I see them as highways or the electric system. Once you allow to decollectovize healthcare then the rich have zero incentive to keep it on a reasonable level or at all. This is true up to a certain point of course like if it affects their way of life directly (all their customers dying of ebola).

We in the Netherlands are seeing that happening right now, the moment healthcare was partly privatized was the moment more and more stuff got taken out of the basic healthcare package that everybody gets. For those with the money to pay for their premium plans rather have a tax cut instead or whatever. There is no collective will anymore to invest in basic health.

I don't believe all scarcity is artificially created. Especially when we are talking about use of amazing medical technology, the education of doctors, and simple beds in hospitals. If you want to argue scarcity is man made that is one thing. But when you apply it to fMRI machines, arthroscopic surgery, or titanium hip replacements, then yes, scarcity exists.

That's very much true, as always nuance wins the day.

 

[way more]

That's very much true, as always nuance wins the day.

I'm glad you agree with me. Now could we go back to this point

Why would you "force" a person when you could charge them an extravagant amount of money and use that money to pay for the help of others? Would you prefer a rich man sits next to a poor man as they recover, or that the rich man stays in a private room with a nice view as three poor men recover from an operation?

I don't want to control or force the morality that the men should have. I would rather give them the needed medical assistance.

 

[Stinkles]

There was a Star Trek Voyager episode like this.

I think it was called Matt Damon's Ringworld District

 

[Condom]

I'm glad you agree with me. Now could we go back to this point

Why would you "force" a person when you could charge them an extravagant amount of money and use that money to pay for the help of others? Would you prefer a rich man sits next to a poor man as they recover, or that the rich man stays in a private room with a nice view as three poor men recover from an operation?

I don't want to control or force the morality that the men should have. I would rather give them the needed medical assistance.

Why would private hospitals use the money to help finance the poor?
Legit question, maybe there is some business sense that makes private hospitals to do that.
I would expect them to pay higher dividends instead.

In a public system I think your position would be more valid and I don't even think I would oppose that if it can be executed good enough.

 

[Liberty4all]

Why would private hospitals use the money to help finance the poor?
Legit question, maybe there is some business sense that makes private hospitals to do that.
I would expect them to pay higher dividends instead.

In a public system I think your position would be more valid and I don't even think I would oppose that if it can be executed good enough.

Canadian here. It's not true in a public system either. Replace "profit" motive with "coming in under budget" motive. In both cases management gets fired if they don't perform. The "boss" is either the shareholders or the taxpayer/government.

 

[way more]

Why would private hospitals use the money to help finance the poor?
Legit question, maybe there is some business sense that makes private hospitals to do that.
I would expect them to pay higher dividends instead.

In a public system I think your position would be more valid and I don't even think I would oppose that if it can be executed good enough.

You didn't answer my question at all.

And it's because they want the money. You really think an accountant can say, "We make 1 million in profits but we also lost 1 million in debts," and expect shareholders to believe it?

 

[PAULINK]

Huh, I always wondered if rich people have rich hospitals, now I know

 

[way more]

Maybe.

I mean, we do it all the time .

Also, I don't know if I'd feel comfortable with hospitals having shareholders. I, too, would prefer the profits to either go to improving/expanding, or at the very least rewarding the doctors and the staff.

Nobody invests in a hospital with the expectation of making money. It's not a restaurant or a Target. It's like a school or a library.

 

[Condom]

You didn't answer my question at all.

And it's because they want the money. You really think an accountant can say, "We make 1 million in profits but we also lost 1 million in debts," and expect shareholders to believe it?

You didn't understand that I doubt that your plan would result in what you think it will result in? If your plan would work exactly like you say it would then by all means. I just very much doubt that it works that way.

Nobody invests in a hospital with the expectation of making money. It's not a restaurant or a Target. It's like a school or a library.

I don't even...what.

 

[way more]

You didn't understand that I doubt that your plan would result in what you think it will result in? If your plan would work exactly like you say it would then by all means. I just very much doubt that it works that way.

What? Who is paying for the medical costs and how does the hospital get the money. That's all I want to know.

 

[Condom]

Ok. I guess we agree?

No. You have a childlish way of arguing.

If it shitting on the floor everyday would actually solve world hunger then I would have agreed with it too. I just doubt that it would change anything when talking about speculative theory.

What? Who is paying for the medical costs and how does the hospital get the money. That's all I want to know.

These people make no profit?

 

[way more]

No. You have a childlish way of arguing.

If it shitting on the floor everyday would actually solve world hunger then I would have agreed with it too. I just doubt that it would change anything when talking about speculative theory.

These people make no profit?

I only started talking to you because you said scarcity didn't exist.

Your point only makes sense in a system scarce of recourses for the poor. Do you not understand that making those resources scarce is a choice in of itself? It's obvious we have been taught different values since yours are much more intrenched in the values of liberal capitalism.

and you said you could force people to not get privileged medical care.

Why can't you force them to do that? Pretty sure they lie next to working class people in my country.

You have no right to spend money in exchange for a service, being able to spend money for a good is something we can most certainly control.

So I said this

Why would you "force" a person when you could charge them an extravagant amount of money and use that money to pay for the help of others? Would you prefer a rich man sits next to a poor man as they recover, or that the rich man stays in a private room with a nice view as three poor men recover from an operation?

I don't want to control or force the morality that the men should have. I would rather give them the needed medical assistance.

And then you said it was very nuanced like we had reached an agreement. Now you talk of shitting on the floor. I don't know how we got away from talking about forcing people to not use their money or that scarcity doesn't exist. Nuance is losing point of the fact that of those two beliefs I listed and focusing on your magical hospital finance theory.

 

[Stinkles]

Nobody invests in a hospital with the expectation of making money. It's not a restaurant or a Target. It's like a school or a library.

Serious question: are you from the US?

 

[way more]

Serious question: are you from the US?

Investing in hospitals is not a profitable venture. If you come into money you will not rush and put it into healthcare.

 

[Condom]

And then you said it was very nuanced like we had reached an agreement. Now you talk of shitting on the floor. I don't know how we got away from talking about forcing people to not use their money or that scarcity doesn't exist. Nuance is losing point of the fact that of those two beliefs I listed and focusing on your magical hospital finance theory.

Many people live in that magical theory right now. Man you should read up on how much more magical stuff social-democracies achieved over the years if you can't even believe universal healthcare works.

Investing in hospitals is not a profitable venture. If you come into money you will not rush and put it into healthcare.

You are super ignorant on this subject. It's like I'm explaining cellphones to an ancient Egyptian right now.

 

[way more]

Many people live in that magical theory right now. Man you should read up on how much more magical stuff social-democracies achieved over the years if you can't even believe universal healthcare works.

You never mentioned universal healthcare. You said

Your point only makes sense in a system scarce of recourses for the poor. Do you not understand that making those resources scarce is a choice in of itself?

When I said MRI's ,arthroscopic surgery, and titanium hip replacements were not in excess and were not the product of artificial scarcity you said, "That's very much true, as always nuance wins the day."

If you back down from every argument I don't see the point of having them with you.


I will say that I disagree with you that you should "force" a person from using their money to get a better view at a hospital nor should you force them to have a spiritual awaking.

 

[Condom]

You never mentioned universal healthcare. You said



When I said MRI's ,arthroscopic surgery, and titanium hip replacements were not in excess and were not the product of artificial scarcity you said, "That's very much true, as always nuance wins the day."

If you back down from every argument I don't see the point of having them with you.


I will say that I disagree with you that you should not "force" a person from using their money to get a better view at a hospital nor should you force them to have a spiritual awaking.

I said that because even in countries with universal healthcare, some treatments are a point of discussion because they cost so much for the public hospitals. Like, should a woman that probably has only 4 years to live still get an expensive hip replacement?

I didn't expect you to think private hospitals are (almost) non-profit corps that only charge the rich to help pay the poor lmao

 

[way more]

Serious question: are you from the US?

Most hospitals in the US are private and not-for-profit.

 

[Stinkles]

Most hospitals in the US are private and not-for-profit.

Why are you answering me twice?

Here's a dry but fascinating article explaining how not for profit hospitals are actually markedly profitable within their tax constraints and spending restrictions and enjoy significant advantages over for profit hospitals.

http://www.library.armstrong.edu/er...-1_CROSBY/8630_economics_FP_NFP_hospitals.pdf


Not for profit is nothing like nonprofit. It's a financial tool.

 

[Condom]

Most hospitals in the US are private and not-for-profit.

So they are charities? Foundations? Something different from a private company?

 

[way more]

Why are you answering me twice?

Sorry. Poor use of punctuation. Most hospitals in the US are private and not-for-profit.

According to the AHA, about 18 percent of U.S. hospitals are private, for-profit hospitals, while 23 percent are owned by state and local governments. The rest are private, nonprofit facilities. This means they’re exempt from federal income tax—and often other taxes as well. It also means tax-exempt bonds may be issued on their behalf.

http://healthnetpulse.com/broker/2013/10/11/did-you-know-for-profit-versus-nonprofit-hospitals

In 2003, of the roughly 3,900 nonfederal, short-term, acute care general hospitals in the United States, the majority—about 62 percent—were nonprofit. The rest included government hospitals (20 percent) and for-profit hospitals (18 percent).[1] In exchange for tax-exemptions, estimated to total $12.6 billion in 2002, nonprofit hospitals are expected to provide community benefits.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-profit_hospital

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Trickle down health care.

Trickle down health care....

 

[joedan]

Sounds good to me.

 

[Abounder]

Sounds like something out of a satire, but I think rich/famous need special treatment at hospitals simply because of TMZ and other exploiters. Coddle away

 

[Ayato Kanzaki]

If it is just for a nicer room, then I'll say yes. Charge them 4 or 5x more so that means poorer people can get a discount.

But you know it won't have that effect. The money gained that way will end up in private bank accounts. Once in a blue moon, a fraction of it will be invested in upgrading the hospital. But only if there's no choice, let's not kid ourselves.

 

[funkypie]

American health system is a joke unless you're in the top 10 percent of wealth