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NYC restaurants sued over automatic tips

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Jonm1010

Banned
NeoGAF Tip Thread Time Saver

Initial Anti-Tipping Reaction
Good! Fuck tips! What do servers do that makes them so special? Why do they deserve tips?

Pro-Tipping Response
It's not about them being "special." It's just that within a tipping-based culture, the restaurant economy (everything from servers' wages, to menu prices, to number of staff hired) depends on the presumption that servers will be getting the majority of their earnings from tips. In other words: menu prices are artificially low, and if you don't tip then you're just free-riding on the system.

Anti-Tipping Follow-up
Well that's stupid. Other cultures get along just fine without tipping!

Pro-Tipping Rebuttal
That's beside the point. Right now, we are a tipping culture. And within our culture, our restaurant economy is set up to depend on servers earning tips. If you don't tip (and tip reasonably well), you're free-riding -- you're making a special exception for yourself at others' expense.

Further Anti-Tipping Follow-up
Well, then, we should become more like a non-tipping culture!

Further Pro-Tipping Rebuttal
That may well be true. (The socio-economics is mixed, but it may well be that we'd be better off without tipping.) But if you try to get us there by simply not tipping, all that will happen is that you'll burn the server working for you and nothing else will change. If you want to change our culture, then pursue legislative change.

Interjection from some Greedy Dude
Fuck all of this. It's my money. I get to decide how I spend it within the limits of the law. Fuck tipping.

Everyone in Unison
Get out of here, you greedy fuck.

Pretty much this haha. It just cycles over and over again.

My only contention is that its not necessarily always a pro tipper that is making that argument(it really should just be anyone with common sense) though often times it is.

Id like to add an observation though. And this is not a defense of the shady practices in the OP but about what I see in every tipping thread. It continually shocks me that in a country plagued by millions upon millions of underpaid workers in jobs that provide a substandard wage, which continues to widen a larger and larger wealth gap, that there continues to perpetuate from some an almost vitriolic hatred toward the beneficiaries(servers, bartenders, delivery drivers) of the one low education profession -outside of the dwindling blue collar industry - that consistently manages to buck the ultra low wage trend and provide their workers with wages that often times slightly exceeds the typical wage one would find outside of that industry. Pay that seemingly more aligns itself with what a lot of concerned Americans and recent economists suggest should be the amount the least among us should receive in terms of a living wage.

Are they getting paid too much? In my experience servers and bartenders tend to average out over the course of a shift for a week anywhere from $8 - $20 plus an hour. The low and highs being EXTREME exceptions to the rule. I'd say most here in louisiana average around 10-13 an hour over the course of a week. 10-13 dollars an hours, Which if you have any sense of the cost of living, is just enough to afford most basic necessities and little else in New Orleans or Baton Rouge.

The problem with those saying just pay servers a regular wage, it's more fair to me the consumer, is that it will look a lot more like a wal mart salary of 8-9 dollars an hour given americas wage enviorenment and a lot less like it does today where servers can possibly make a decent bit more. Both scenarios have their negatives but only one scenario, with no other changes to the law, would significantly hurt a servers take home wage.

As i said, It's the one consistent industry left in this country where if you can't find a blue collar job you can manage to make a modest living or in my case help pay your way through college.

Personally I think all this hatred toward service industry workers for their higher pay over other jobs like retail should be channeled at raising the minimum wage to more align itself with what servers make, which is a more appropriate low end living wage. Then we can talk about eliminating the tipping culture. But I think without that first step, going to the second step is just a cruel assault on service industry workers that will only stand to single out and hurt them.
 
They said it was optional. If the service sucks, don't tip.

Nobody's used to customarily picking apart a bill and deducting a percentage from it, because nobody really gets to do that with restaurant bills unless there was something explicitly wrong with the visit.

The restaurants charging automatic gratuity know that full well. They're just playing dumb.
 

Sye d'Burns

Member
No you should ALWAYS tip unless the service is extremely poor. Standard service = tip. Exceptional service = high tip.

Sometimes a waiter is extremely busy and can't give your table all the attention it needs = substandard service

If I'm not getting "standard" service, let's not pretend the "standard" tip is earned.

Sure, I'll tip anyway but it's either a show of commiseration for the waiter's rough day or it's an instance of benign neglect if I'd rather not talk to the manager about shortcomings I didn't feel were warranted.

If a caveat follows an ALWAYS is it still ALWAYS or does it lose a minimum of one capital letter?
 

neojubei

Will drop pants for Sony.
If tipping is mandatory it should be included in the menu price.
Should not be mandatory. If the waiter is a horrible waiter and does a poor job then why should anyone have to be forced to tip. There is no incentive to even give good service.
 

GungHo

Single-handedly caused Exxon-Mobil to sue FOX, start World War 3
I'm actually more offended that people are actually eating at Applebee's, Red Lobster and Olive Garden in New York City. Such a waste.

No shit, man. There's so much good food there and you wanna go to one of those shitholes? It's not like you're in Kansas City.
 

poppabk

Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
NeoGAF Tip Thread Time Saver

Initial Anti-Tipping Reaction
Good! Fuck tips! What do servers do that makes them so special? Why do they deserve tips?

Pro-Tipping Response
It's not about them being "special." It's just that within a tipping-based culture, the restaurant economy (everything from servers' wages, to menu prices, to number of staff hired) depends on the presumption that servers will be getting the majority of their earnings from tips. In other words: menu prices are artificially low, and if you don't tip then you're just free-riding on the system.

Anti-Tipping Follow-up
Well that's stupid. Other cultures get along just fine without tipping!

Pro-Tipping Rebuttal
That's beside the point. Right now, we are a tipping culture. And within our culture, our restaurant economy is set up to depend on servers earning tips. If you don't tip (and tip reasonably well), you're free-riding -- you're making a special exception for yourself at others' expense.

Further Anti-Tipping Follow-up
Well, then, we should become more like a non-tipping culture!

Further Pro-Tipping Rebuttal
That may well be true. (The socio-economics is mixed, but it may well be that we'd be better off without tipping.) But if you try to get us there by simply not tipping, all that will happen is that you'll burn the server working for you and nothing else will change. If you want to change our culture, then pursue legislative change.

Interjection from some Greedy Dude
Fuck all of this. It's my money. I get to decide how I spend it within the limits of the law. Fuck tipping.

Everyone in Unison
Get out of here, you greedy fuck.
You missed the part about the employer being required to pay the difference if the tips don't bring the total up to minimum wage. Ie the legislative change is already in place.
You also missed the part where the tipping system means that racial/ethnic minorities get paid less for doing the same work.
 

Sub_Level

wants to fuck an Asian grill.
If I'm not getting "standard" service, let's not pretend the "standard" tip is earned.

Sure, I'll tip anyway but it's either a show of commiseration for the waiter's rough day or it's an instance of benign neglect if I'd rather not talk to the manager about shortcomings I didn't feel were warranted.

If a caveat follows an ALWAYS is it still ALWAYS or does it lose a minimum of one capital letter?

You're making a bifurcation out of standard and substandard service when restaurant service is more of a spectrum.

Not being able to pay attention to your table might mean taking a whole minute or two to refill your water and it might mean getting your order completely wrong lol

One is clearly far more severe than the other despite both being classified as "substandard service". Tips should be adjusted accordingly. The guy who took a little while to get your water should still get a standard tip. The guy who really fucked up shouldn't.
 

Lonely1

Unconfirmed Member
No you should ALWAYS tip unless the service is extremely poor. Standard service = tip. Exceptional service = high tip.

Sometimes a waiter is extremely busy and can't give your table all the attention it needs.

Is not my fault that the restaurant can't be arsed to hire an adequate number of staff.
 

ultron87

Member
I'm pro tipping but automatic tips on the bill have always bugged me. I can see how it makes sense for a big party, but doing it all the time (as these restaurants apparently are) is nonsense.

I always really appreciate it when a waiter is sure to mention that the gratuity is on the bill already for big parties. I'll usually throw in an extra buck or two for that.
 

Sye d'Burns

Member
You're making a bifurcation out of standard and substandard service when restaurant service is more of a spectrum.

Not being able to pay attention to your table might mean taking a whole minute or two to refill your water and it might mean getting your order completely wrong lol

One is clearly far more severe than the other despite both being classified as "substandard service". Tips should be adjusted accordingly. The guy who took a little while to get your water should still get a standard tip. The guy who really fucked up shouldn't.

I was only responding to your initial bifurcation between standard and exceptional service.

No shit, man. There's so much good food there and you wanna go to one of those shitholes? It's not like you're in Kansas City.

So you pick a place renowned for its BBQ (don't look at me, I prefer Memphis BBQ) to throw under the bus.
 

Sub_Level

wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Is not fault that the restaurant can't be arsed to hire an adequate number of staff.


That's not the problem. Restaurants could hire tons of waiters if they wanted to. A month of training and $2 or $3 an hour isn't a problem. People circulate in and out all the time. But the more waiters you have, the less tables each waiter gets, and by extension the less money each waiter makes which makes them more demoralized. Waiters want it busy, but sometimes it randomly gets too busy, or a customer is being unreasonable, or something went wrong with the food, or the computer system broke, or any number of things completely out of the control of the waiter.

Like I said in my other post, neglecting your table could mean a lot of things. If it's not that serious then you should take a page from the gaming side and "Please Understand". Also adjust your expectations of the waiter reasonably based off the restaurant. If it's top dollar, you should judge the waiter more critically. If it's Olive Garden, I mean...come on man...
 

Lonely1

Unconfirmed Member
That's not the problem. Restaurants could hire tons of waiters if they wanted to. A month of training and $2 or $3 an hour isn't a problem. People circulate in and out all the time. But the more waiters you have, the less tables each waiter gets, and by extension the less money each waiter makes which makes them more demoralized. Waiters want it busy, but sometimes it randomly gets too busy, or a customer is being unreasonable, or something went wrong with the food, or the computer system broke, or any number of things completely out of the control of the waiter.

Like I said in my other post, neglecting your table could mean a lot of things. If it's not that serious then you should take a page from the gaming side and "Please Understand". Also adjust your expectations of the waiter reasonably based off the restaurant. If it's top dollar, you should judge the waiter more critically. If it's Olive Garden, I mean...come on man...

If I neglect my job, I don't get "standard" salary. I get fired. And that "please understand" is a lot of BS. We aren't friends, we are on a business relationship. Will the waitress understand that I have fallen into hard economic times and I have no money to pay his optional tip? Of course not, the standard answer is "then don't come to dine here, cheap a#@s!".
 

Darkangel

Member
http://www.dol.gov/elaws/faq/esa/flsa/002.htm

UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF LABOR said:
The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) requires payment of at least the federal minimum wage to covered, nonexempt employees. An employer of a tipped employee is only required to pay $2.13 an hour in direct wages if that amount plus the tips received equals at least the federal minimum wage, the employee retains all tips and the employee customarily and regularly receives more than $30 a month in tips. If an employee's tips combined with the employer's direct wages of at least $2.13 an hour do not equal the federal minimum hourly wage, the employer must make up the difference.

There's really no reason to tip if you don't want to.

So what if it subsidizes the menu prices, you're still "expected" to pay the extra amount through tips.
 

Sub_Level

wants to fuck an Asian grill.
If I neglect my job, I don't get "standard" salary. I get fired.

That's cool but there's plenty of people who do a substandard job every day and still get paid the same because they're paid hourly or on salary.

And to reiterate again, negligence of a table is a spectrum. If you place taking a little while to refill your drink at the same level as something more serious, you're a silly unreasonable human being.

Falling under hard economic times and still choosing to go eat out is something under your control. A computer breaking is not under the control of a waiter.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Darden Restaurants, which owns Olive Garden and Red Lobster, released a statement to CBS responding to the suit. “The automatic gratuity is a convenience for our guests,"

So that's why it appears on the bill as:
5% of your Bill is - $2.90
10% of your Bill is - $5.80
15% of your Bill is - $8.70
20% of your Bill is - $11.60

You know, an actual tip calculator, which is what would actually be convenient for guests when they are trying to decide their level of gratuity?
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Hotel room service is THE WORST.

Food charge
Delivery fee
Convenience charge
Tip
ADDITIONAL TIP wtf?
(sometimes) Weird City Tax fee (looking at you, Javits Center)
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Hopefully they don't try a coupon settlement. That's just actual money from people's pockets.
 
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