As you said I think he means collective national victim blaming (America, France...) not the individuals affected. But the point remains.
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NYT: After Attacks on Muslims, Many Ask: Where Is the Outpouring?
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As you said I think he means collective national victim blaming (America, France...) not the individuals affected. But the point remains.
Would also like to add Turkey which does feel "close" yet recieves nowhere near the same amount of attention, though to be fair an embarrassingly large group of people still think Turkey is some third-world country in the middle east.
Not sure he means distance but culturally. Westerners will mourn more for western cultures.
Anyway, in my personal opinion, I think the world has less empathy because (DISCLAIMER: I don't personally feel this way) it's a much more common occurrence in predominantly Muslim countries. It's the same mentality as the high inner city rate of violence in the USA, but the media and most people turn a blind eye. "Gangbangers and drug dealers will kill each other."
Yeah, I think that's a big factor. In Bangladesh the victims were mostly Italian and Japanese, and yet was there not much attention by the western world either.
ShockingAlberto
Member
I have family what was killed in the Bangladesh attack. No, I don't super want to talk about it.
But there won't be any massive outpouring of support from Reddit. There won't be a hashtag shared across colleges in America among liberals. There isn't going to be a national conversation about what we can do to protect people from this sort of thing happening again.
But there won't be any massive outpouring of support from Reddit. There won't be a hashtag shared across colleges in America among liberals. There isn't going to be a national conversation about what we can do to protect people from this sort of thing happening again.
Well Iraq is in a sectarian civil war. There's little to be outraged about, only sadness.
But primarily Islamic terrorism is a problem with Islam. People in the West care less about it, because it is 'their problem'. We only get outraged when their problem becomes our problem. I'm sure most people in Arab countries didn't give a shit about The Troubles, or wouldn't about the Thirty Years War if it were happening now. The crusades however...
But primarily Islamic terrorism is a problem with Islam. People in the West care less about it, because it is 'their problem'. We only get outraged when their problem becomes our problem. I'm sure most people in Arab countries didn't give a shit about The Troubles, or wouldn't about the Thirty Years War if it were happening now. The crusades however...
I am so sorry for your loss.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
You would expect it first from other Arab countries.
People in the west identity with countries affected that we are familiar with first.
People in the west identity with countries affected that we are familiar with first.
That wasn't the case in Bangladesh.
Lol no
It's funny I usually always hear such absurd things from people who've never actually met or known a Muslim them self.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Nope. When Paris was attacked, everyone had a Paris profile pic on Facebook.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I find it fascinating that we don't care as much... And I'm interested in learning the psychology of it beyond just shouting about how racist we are.
Maybe it's that we view Islamic terrorism within the Islamic world as typical. It's when it impacts the non-Islamic world that we consider it an unjust error.
Maybe it's that we feel in-group empathy to those within our "world system" (that being The West). Maybe we'd similarly shrug our shoulders at atrocities in other systems such as North Korea or in the former Soviet Union. It's interesting that tribe dynamics could play out on such a massive scale.
Don't think this is about race, so much as class + cultural similarity.
Maybe it's that we view Islamic terrorism within the Islamic world as typical. It's when it impacts the non-Islamic world that we consider it an unjust error.
Maybe it's that we feel in-group empathy to those within our "world system" (that being The West). Maybe we'd similarly shrug our shoulders at atrocities in other systems such as North Korea or in the former Soviet Union. It's interesting that tribe dynamics could play out on such a massive scale.
Guarantee you if terrorism happened in Japan, Western people would care.
Don't think this is about race, so much as class + cultural similarity.
The western world has 247 propaganda that makes a grey line between Muslims and terrorirsts. In america the mere thought of Obama being Muslim is enough to want him out of office.
As a black person, this is how it is to live in this world. No one cares. We had dead babies washing up on shores, yet you'll see more out rage over a missing white girl in cancun. People don't view Muslims as people. Look at Palestine.
A dead lion had more outrage than any refugee / mass bombing story. Folks just think Muslims are violent and killing each other accordingly. You have 50 people die in a mass shooting, its tragic. You've got hundreds dying a week and there's no connection between those numbers, and human suffering.
People dont look at Muslim plight and think "man that could be me, or my family." just doesn't happen. But a pod of beached whales...
Niagara falls.
As a black person, this is how it is to live in this world. No one cares. We had dead babies washing up on shores, yet you'll see more out rage over a missing white girl in cancun. People don't view Muslims as people. Look at Palestine.
A dead lion had more outrage than any refugee / mass bombing story. Folks just think Muslims are violent and killing each other accordingly. You have 50 people die in a mass shooting, its tragic. You've got hundreds dying a week and there's no connection between those numbers, and human suffering.
People dont look at Muslim plight and think "man that could be me, or my family." just doesn't happen. But a pod of beached whales...
Niagara falls.
ultratruman
Banned
I'm sick of these cheap moral games. There's absolutely a massive difference between an attack on the streets on Paris and one in Iraq, where there have been 22 such attacks this year and is completely different in terms of historical, economic and security contexts. I'm sorry for all the chips on shoulders but it's just a fact: any reasonable person would expect more safety in Paris, Brussels and Orlando than Baghdad, Kabul or Dhaka.
The value of a human life is equal, the world is not. Whining changes nothing.
The value of a human life is equal, the world is not. Whining changes nothing.
No that doesn't cut it anymore after the outpouring response from Europe after 911 and our own response after Europe is attacked.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Come on now. Let's not try to generalize this much.
Freezie KO
Banned
When Muslims die in Orlando or Boston or San Bernardino, the West grieves. When they die in far away lands where this happens often, the West doesn't.
It's a stupid question to ask why Western media and people living in the West don't care as much when people die in a shithole theocracy or failed state far away from their everyday lives.
It's a stupid question to ask why Western media and people living in the West don't care as much when people die in a shithole theocracy or failed state far away from their everyday lives.
Sunster
Member
Just start caring. It's really not hard. You should care, dgaf what justification there is for not caring. just fucking care. Read and read and read all about it. Watch one of the news stations that do cover these stories. These are people, they deserve some time out of your fucking day to think and care about how they were wiped off the face of the earth.
I don't think it's geographical distance so much as socio-economic distance? We had 24 hour news cycles devoted to Fukushima and MH370 because they represent tragedy that happens in what the West considers "part of their world". Japan and Malaysia may be distant, but nuclear disaster and flight failure are real/relevant to us.
HighResTomato
Member
West doesn't care enough when they die, just whether they have "democracy" or not.
VenomousCoffee
Member
That's the opposite of what "innate" means.
What about Saudi? There aren't attacks there every week, let alone next to the holy mosque in Medina. And what about Turkey too? If it's truly a culture/similarity thing, Turkey is closer to the west in most regards when compared to the rest of the Muslim world. A double standard definitely exists, and it's definitely a problem. Like all things, it's not as simple as many are making it out to be (on both sides), but ignoring it won't help anyone.
Us v. them. The peer group v. the Other. It's not just race or religion (or physical distance), but the combination of factors that labels someone as being on our team (or another).
As another example, the US zeitgeist cares relatively little about what happens to our neighbors in Mexico or Central America, despite proximity and arguably shared religion (Catholicism isn't part of Christianity according to many USAins). Some of those neighbors are even kinda white.
As another example, the US zeitgeist cares relatively little about what happens to our neighbors in Mexico or Central America, despite proximity and arguably shared religion (Catholicism isn't part of Christianity according to many USAins). Some of those neighbors are even kinda white.
andythinkpad
Member
Same reason outsiders don't care about Hinduists and Muslim attacking each others's temples in India/Pakistan.
Okay no the issue isn't just your far removed and you can't relate so you don't care
The other issue is something happens in the West THE WHOLE WORLD is expected to care and does
That's the main underlying issue I have. It's a fucked up double standard that being brown makes you accountable to.
Edit: the baton rougue shooting thread is cracking only like 500 posts. A straight up fucking execution. Is that too far removed for everyone? And don't give me that desensitized bullshit, happening in our own fucking country.
White lives are valued more than others and that's just how it is.
The other issue is something happens in the West THE WHOLE WORLD is expected to care and does
That's the main underlying issue I have. It's a fucked up double standard that being brown makes you accountable to.
Edit: the baton rougue shooting thread is cracking only like 500 posts. A straight up fucking execution. Is that too far removed for everyone? And don't give me that desensitized bullshit, happening in our own fucking country.
White lives are valued more than others and that's just how it is.
Culture of gluttony, debauchery, etc. On this end I can relate ...
andythinkpad
Member
Turkey shouldn't be an example for this. It's Erdogan's country. That goes does his best to clean up every single trace of any attacks happened in Turkey. He makes sure people forget people died. He even makes people antagonize the victims. He bans media from reporting the tragic events, he insults those who do all over the world. He's that evil.
Yep, it's all about familiarity. Your average white American is more comfortable with Japanese people than with Turkish or Bengali Muslims, and this has really shitty implications.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
I would say it's a matter if it's a Western country and/or modern. Most of the Middle East is seen as 3rd world, whilst a place like Paris or Japan is 1st world. So when something happens in Istanbul or Bangladesh, people can't 'relate' to that because they live radically different lives. Something happens in Paris, everyone gets a little France icon on facebook because that's something that can relate and something can happen to them.
Sorry but there are more terrorist attacks in Iraq and Syria (middle-east) than in France.
IndoAssassin
Banned
Attacks in any country don't phase me as much as an attack in Canada.
Because I am from Canada. I am Indian, yet a terrorist attack in India feels the same as a terrorist attack in the Middle East, US, Europe, Australia, China and so on.
Because I don't live in those countries, it feels so far away. I have no relations with people there.
An attack in Canada is more shocking because it feels so close to home. I have relations with people here.
Because I am from Canada. I am Indian, yet a terrorist attack in India feels the same as a terrorist attack in the Middle East, US, Europe, Australia, China and so on.
Because I don't live in those countries, it feels so far away. I have no relations with people there.
An attack in Canada is more shocking because it feels so close to home. I have relations with people here.
It's got nothing to do with race but entirely on the country, Western tourists were targeted in Yemen, in Turkey and in Bangladesh..the news moved on rather quickly. A muslim police officer was gunned down during the Charlie Hebdo massacre in Paris and there was quite an outpour.
Blueingreen
Member
It's not my outlook, it's my clarification of reality, the reality is most people in the West don't give a damn about foreign affairs however negative they may be especially ones of a different culture ten's of thousands of miles away, and vice versa, that's just the way it is.
Check out the movie Nightcrawler, just throwing that out there
What happened in Japan recently ? 5 years ago the largest recorded earthquake in history wiped out 20'000 people in the space of 2 minutes, but I assume that's an annual event right ? Also Boeing 777 planes always vanish into thin air..without a trace, why was that reported ?
To be more accurate, an embarrassingly large amount of people think the majority of the Middle East is some third world hell hole like they see on Homeland.
I didn't say a single thing about Iraq or Syria though.
I also guarantee you people wouldn't care if it happened to a Christian African country.
It's about skin color, some people find it hard to sympothize with people that have a darker skin.
Abstrusity
Member
Realistically, the last time the Middle East as a whole was viewed as anything but was before we overthrew the democratically elected leader of Iran and everything started going to shit when Iran forced the Shah out in the late 70s.
We pretty much view, as individual cultures, anything different as 'lesser.' The result is that we end up with confirmation bias. Mexico is pretty damned modernized, so are the Northern African countries. Cuba isn't so modern, all told, but Jordan is. Iraq and even Afghanistan are somewhat modern, less so now, given their unfortunate on again, off again relationship with the US military, and the upheaval of governments over and over again. But what is modernization? TV? They have that. Power to homes? Yup. Roads? Uh-huh. Computers, even internet connections, even after so much destruction breaking up their infrastructure.
But you get pictures from Afghanistan and Iraq of mountain villages and roaming nomads, less of the cities and towns, and you apply that to "vaguely middle eastern country #6232" if you know nothing about it...
Or you'll see shanties because explosives have brought down what would otherwise be normal or mostly normal housing for the area, modernized and cheap, like our own homes are, with materials harder to come by as fighting intensifies and drifts away in waves.
This fighting has caused untold millions of dollars of damage, and nobody REALLY wants to take responsibility for it, but then, the US military as well as a huge contingent of contractors DO still make an attempt to rebuild what gets blown apart.
Knowing nothing, all told, isn't something to be proud about, nor is it something to be ashamed about. It's only in never making an attempt to learn that the shame shines through, I think. We just never make an attempt to learn.
All of this information at our fingertips, and people still don't care about it enough.
So it's not entirely surprising when people beat others in the street because they look different, or when people call the police or security when they hear a different language, or when they think that all of these people that look different or sound different are from lesser cultures, in lesser countries, that we couldn't point out on a map if they were labeled correctly.
The scariest thing isn't that these racists exist, or that culture to culture codependence, coexistence, is grinding to a halt out of fear...but that people don't even realize how wrong they are, and are unwilling, by fear or otherwise, to spend literally seconds looking it up. They just don't care.
BudokaiMR2
Member
I don't think the apathy is as racially motivated as some think, but it definitely plays a part.
As others have said, I think the biggest reason is that the region is unstable and the attacks are too common.
For example, even American soldiers dying to IEDs and stuff usually just warranted a small ticker mention on all the 24hr news channels for the most part. Or at least that is how I remember it. I have been far removed from the US news cycle for a while now.
I know that isn't exactly comparable as they are obviously combatants and not civilians, but you can't deny that would pull at the American populace heart strings if they decided to give it more air time.
As others have said, I think the biggest reason is that the region is unstable and the attacks are too common.
For example, even American soldiers dying to IEDs and stuff usually just warranted a small ticker mention on all the 24hr news channels for the most part. Or at least that is how I remember it. I have been far removed from the US news cycle for a while now.
I know that isn't exactly comparable as they are obviously combatants and not civilians, but you can't deny that would pull at the American populace heart strings if they decided to give it more air time.
Coriolanus
Banned
That isn't comparable because up to 2009 there was a legit photo ban on military coffins to hide the cost of war.
That's why soldiers dying were relegated to the small ticker mention.
BudokaiMR2
Member
Link doesn't work, but that does make a lot of sense.
I mean they could still do stories without photos, but yeah it wouldn't tug on the heart strings as much.
Was it only on coffin photos or more far-reaching?
FYI, Malaysia is a Muslim country.
It is not only distance but culture, religion, politics, ethnicity all play a factor. Western countries would show solidarity with one another than they would others. You can see a divide between even Western and Eastern Europe here. How many white Europeans get upset at Russian aggression in Ukraine as opposed to Russian aggression in Chechnya? Why. Japan is pretty much a democratic and Western country which is why they get more similarity and solidarity than say China or Myanmar get. Think about muslim solidarity. Why do the people of Pakistan get upset at Israeli aggression against Arab-Palestinians as opposed to India or Nepal. What is the uniting factor? It's pretty much the tribal nature of humans. Often times race plays a factor too. Incidents in Canada would affect Americans more than an incident in Mexico.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Where is the outpouring when black kids get shot in south side of chicago and black neighbordhoods all over the u.s? Unfortunately it has become the norm and same goes for terrorist attacks in arab countries. IIRC, some 35,000 people have died in Pakistan in terrorist attacks since 9/11 compared to around a 100 in the u.s. Some 150 school children were killed just last year. no one cared. people think its the norm in those countries and no one wants to deal with it.
Dr.Guru of Peru
played the long game
Some of these posts are sickening. Jesus.
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