Support NeoGAF

[Karma Kramer]

Because they hypocritical assholes, the only thing worse is the rationalization you guys do to justify being whores fr capitalism, but poor victims at the same time.

/10

 

[Funky Papa]

No, the Hans of fate.

Jesus. I think I shat myself for a minute.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

just because you are in American business doesn't mean you know what capitalism is. I suggest you read An Inquiry into the Wealth of Nations by this one guy, uh, John Paul Jones or something, and then say that the current economic conditions are in any way resembling anything but highly distorted, hijacked crony 'capitalism'.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

WAIT A MINUTE

Manos is Hans altnick?

No. Hans comes from my old keyboards D key not working well and I never noticed the missing D when registering. I just look at it as a combo of Manos the Hands of Fate and Hans Moleman, so I was never bother too much.

 

[Red Nightmare]

a) No one is saying corporations shouldn't try to make profit. What people are saying is that some corporations (Such as banks) are making profit in a way that negatively impacts society. This is a failed market, not a free market. OWS is an attempt to fix the market failure that is our current financial system and make it closer to legitimate free market principles.

Disagree. The financial institutions that got into trouble did so mostly by taking stupid greed-driven risks. They were just too free & careless with their loans, lending money to high-risk borrowers and then getting burned. It is harsh to say so, but those companies should have been allowed to perish. The industry would have corrected itself afterwards, driven by the incentive to survive and profit. When they know the government will bail them out if they lose, they are not incentivized to implement sound business practices.

b) As for Green/Sustainable energy. Often investing in new technology is unprofitable/less profitable then other means, despite its benefits to society. The point behind subsidies is to make it profitable for these businesses by removing the disincentive. This is another correction of the market to maximize net social benefit.

Supposedly. But what makes you think that the government bureaucrats that "remove disincentives" via regulation are making the right choices for the long run? Why such trust in government? The free market is better. Companies will be naturally incentivized to come up with innovative new products (including energy products) if they think they can profit from it. Government meddling is not needed.

As for the Solyndra case the far right keeps harping on about- that's a problem with corporate malfeasance/greed, not a problem with subsidizing alternative energies.

No, it was simply poor business. There was no market for their products at the prices they would have had to charge in order to be profitable. Their costs were just higher than their potential income. They gambled and lost. Or perhaps they counted on subsidies and bail-outs. Why? Let them thrive or die based on the products they offer.

Another thing about the free market, what we have now with the lack of regulation- it is causing that interference that free-market folks are trying to avoid. Banks have artificially restricted the loan market, which is causing problems in the housing market. Sometimes less is more, you're right there, but right now less is less, and there needs to be more, in order for the market to properly function.

Artificially restricted the loan market??? Is recent history so quickly forgotten? The financial crisis occurred because of (too) unrestricted lending. The market will find the proper level of lending without over-meddling by the government. That's what free markets do.

In fact, the bailouts of the financial institutions has created a massive moral hazard among those institutions- that motivates them to short term profit seeking. If they win they keep the profits, if they lose the government bails them out.

Agreed. So governments should not bail them out.

OWS, instead of being destroyers of the free market, are its saviors. (though there is an element in OWS that is about redistribution, they are a small minority of the mainstream OWS types) This is a reason you're seeing many of the original, true Tea Partiers, not the Koch-led bastardization which it became, in with the OWS types.

The OWS people mostly come across as childish individuals that want vague things like "social justice" and "tax the rich" and "forgiveness of all debt" and "guaranteed jobs". That's called communism, and it doesn't work.

Free market capitalism (with limited regulation & taxation) is not always fair or kind, but it's the best hope for society to develop and prosper. The OWSers want something for nothing, want to have someone (why do they trust unaccountable government bureaucrats so much?) always take care of them. That's not realistic; that's not real life.

 

[MikeTyson]

DUDES WE ARE ALL TYPING ON COMPUTERS, ANY CRITIQUE OF CAPITALISM IS THEREFORE VOID

SHUT DOWN THIS THREAD IMMEDIATELY

I'm on an Apple computer in my school classroom tho

apple the guood guys right

 

[Clevinger]

Because they hypocritical assholes, the only thing worse is the rationalization you guys do to justify being whores fr capitalism, but poor victims at the same time.

I don't get it. So, in order not to be hypocritical assholes while protesting for corporate accountability, getting lobbyists out of politics, etc., you can't buy anything? What? Why? And really, they're not protesting the corporations themselves (which purpose would be to, what, regulate themselves or something?), or capitalism itself, they're protesting the politicians to do something about the things that are fucking the poor and middle class in the ass.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

http://www.davidduke.com/images/Ann-Colter.jpg[/MG]/10[/QUTE]

You read David Dukes website?

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

The OWS people mostly come across as childish individuals that want vague things like "social justice" and "tax the rich" and "forgiveness of all debt" and "guaranteed jobs". That's called communism, and it doesn't work.

well ho-ly shit

 

[Karma Kramer]

http://www.davidduke.com/images/Ann-Colter.jpg[/MG]/10[/QUTE]

You read David Dukes website?[/QUOTE]

I found the image via google images...

edit: also 3/10 for your quoting abilities lol :P

 

[Red Nightmare]

Or it encourages you to buy out all your competition, place barriers to entry with exclusive agreements with suppliers, and then strangle your customer base for every penny. Even Adam Smith, the demigod of free market economics, didn't believe in unchecked laissez-faire economics.

Nobody except fringe Any Rand types or anarchists advocate "unchecked laissez-faire economics". That's not what the discussion is about.

 

[SmokyDave]

Oh, Come On. This bullshit is no better than the tripe Red Nightmare and Hans brings to the thread. Please explain why drinking coffe and owning a smartphone makes someone ineligible to join the OWS movement.

Bitching about the rich if you're one of the ones keeping them where they are is stupid. Buy a second hand cheap phone (but then I can't use BBM to co-ordinate my protesting!) and don't line the pockets of companies like Starbucks when there are far more ethical businesses available. Bring a thermos of free-trade coffee that you bartered from an independent trader.

Sorry if I don't instantly find myself convinced by the badly-daubed slogans of some unemployed pisssheads and some perpetual-student bandwagon-jumpers. Maybe the 'movement' became somewhat diluted by the time it reached the UK.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I found the image via google images...

Sure you did.....yeah right.

 

[XMonkey]

I don't get it. So, in order not to be hypocritical assholes while protesting for corporate accountability, getting lobbyists out of politics, etc., you can't buy anything? What? Why? And really, they're not protesting the corporations themselves (which purpose would be to, what, regulate themselves or something?), or capitalism itself, they're protesting the politicians to do something about the things that are fucking the poor and middle class in the ass.

Again, I wouldn't bother. We've gone round and round on this asinine point.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Bitching about the rich if you're one of the ones keeping them where they are is stupid. Buy a second hand cheap phone (but then I can't use BBM to co-ordinate my protesting!) and don't line the pockets of companies like Starbucks when there are far more ethical businesses available. Bring a thermos of free-trade coffee that you bartered from an independent trader.

Sorry if I don't instantly find myself convinced by the badly-daubed slogans of some unemployed pisssheads and some perpetual-student bandwagon-jumpers. Maybe the 'movement' became somewhat diluted by the time it reached the UK.

Maybe you should read this thread more instead of relying on "signs" to inform your demanding needs of concision.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

Bitching about the rich if you're one of the ones keeping them where they are is stupid. Buy a second hand cheap phone (but then I can't use BBM to co-ordinate my protesting!) and don't line the pockets of companies like Starbucks when there are far more ethical businesses available. Bring a thermos of free-trade coffee that you bartered from an independent trader.

Sorry if I don't instantly find myself convinced by the badly-daubed slogans of some unemployed pisssheads and some perpetual-student bandwagon-jumpers. Maybe the 'movement' became somewhat diluted by the time it reached the UK.

i understand your sentiments completely, i do do those things you say because your right, denouncing something as wrong and then supporting that very thing is the definition of hypocrisy.

but please don't let those goons delegitimate the movement in your eyes

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

Nobody except fringe Any Rand types or anarchists advocate "unchecked laissez-faire economics". That's not what the discussion is about.

that's what the movement is about, however, because that is the point it has reached.

 

[SmokyDave]

Maybe you should read this thread more instead of relying on "signs" to inform your demanding needs of concision.

Maybe you should take a walk through my local market square instead?

Presentation is key. You can't expect everyone that is greeted by these people to fire up GAF and read a huge thread.

i understand your sentiments completely, i do do those things you say because your right, denouncing something as wrong and then supporting that very thing is the definition of hypocrisy.

but please don't let those goons delegitimate the movement in your eyes

I just don't want them claiming to represent me & mine. I don't like the current system, I do think it's corrupt and rotten from the top down but this is not how I wish to register my displeasure.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

but it's ultimately like this, SmokyDave, they are out there, regardless. they may not smart, they may be hypocritical by drinking laughably unjust Starbucks, but they are out there voicing their discontent at the current system. Say whatever we want, but they aren't apathetic.

you are simply voicing your discontent at them, rather than the system. You're a smart guy, why not shape the movement how us 'smarties' think it should be? or is it always easier to say 'well...'

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Maybe you should read this thread more instead of relying on "signs" to inform your demanding needs of concision.

Maybe you should read urls and sources before posting them.

 

[Jenga]

manos what are you doing up in this hour arguing with euro gaf


wouldn't a warm comfy bed be nice right now?

 

[jorma]

Bitching about the rich if you're one of the ones keeping them where they are is stupid. Buy a second hand cheap phone (but then I can't use BBM to co-ordinate my protesting!) and don't line the pockets of companies like Starbucks when there are far more ethical businesses available. Bring a thermos of free-trade coffee that you bartered from an independent trader.

Dude, i'm not rich but i can afford my own smart phone no problem. Also, my job (i've been working for a credit rating company since 1997) provides me with another smartphone. I gots two! And a samsung galaxy tablet! (well that tablet was a birthday gift from my father, who is sort of wealthy)
I would prefer coffe from my own thermos i guess, but a coffeshop would suffice if nothing else was around, since i do need my coffee fix.

I still dont see how this makes me a hypocrite when i oppose the unchecked and unhinged wall street capitalism. Opposing corporatism does not mean you oppose corporations, it means that you oppose the power they wield in society.

 

[_Xenon_]

What Red nightmare said is right actually, if you look at it from a global invest bank point of view.

1. Business is solely profit driven.
True. Asia at the moment simply has better invest environment so why put money in the US when you can make big bucks in Asia? Oh and don't forget those mid-east oil / ore rich countries. They don't wanna stand in line? Slap them in line.

2. Good business is good for society
True. Asia has the biggest middle class, biggest car market, biggest smartphone market, etc, etc. People ain't buying shit if they have no money.

3. Less taxes and less regulation means good business
True. Less money in the US government pocket means more money these banks can spend ... outside the US.

However, when you look at it from a 99% point of view:

1. Business is solely profit driven.
The US banks are quite funny on this part: when it comes to profit, "private sector FTW" "capitalism fuck yeah", when it comes to 2008 crash, to 2011 euro crash, "federal reserve please back us up! we are American we are all on the same boat!". That's blank check right here.

2. Good business is good for society
All the money either goes into other countries or goes into mid-east military bases then what's left for joe average? Big banks are still making record revenues despite of high unemployment and low demand. Who's doing who good?

3. Less taxes and less regulation means good business
So these banks are benefiting from the free market, with their ass covered by the federal reserve, and they don't pay much tax because that will hurt their (global) business, and some people call them "big corporations are people"?

If in a perfect land (or simply 40 years ago) where the US has the best invest environment, the US has the best brain pool (regardless they are home born or foreigners), and every oil producing country listens to the US, what you said about "less regulation = good business = good society" is true. However the wind has changed, with current global competition the US just isn't that hot. Low level jobs go to Asia, middle level jobs go to Europe. People without job can't buy shit, demand goes down the toilet. Nobody buying shit means more people lose job, back to the "people can't buy shit" part. Meanwhile those banks, who don't even belong to the US but have their ass covered by the federal reserve, are behaving like a swarm of locusts, jump into one country, fuck it up, then next (first Japan, Korea, then most of the Europe and Greece being the first one to bust).

So yeah, I benefit from free trade I make bucks by doing super risky investment in other countries I have my ass covered by the US central bank and I don't pay much tax and I want even less tax, oh and OWS are just childish hippies. /sarcasm

 

[coldvein]

I don't get it because the signs are a fucking mess. Perhaps spelling out the message would help. Y'know, like pretty much every other protest. They couldn't occupy shit without our generous welfare system feeding and clothing them so forgive me if I don't take them seriously.

I'm sorry that you feel the need to block out opinions that you don't agree with. You'll stunt your personal development that way.

smokydave. a poster who i have always respected and taken (relatively) seriously. are you asking that every protest kid in every city in america hold the same sign up?

 

[SmokyDave]

but it's ultimately like this, SmokyDave, they are out there, regardless. they may not smart, they may be hypocritical by drinking laughably unjust Starbucks, but they are out there voicing their discontent at the current system. Say whatever we want, but they aren't apathetic.

you are simply voicing your discontent at them, rather than the system. You're a smart guy, why not shape the movement how us 'smarties' think it should be? or is it always easier to say 'well...'

They have nothing to lose. I have a job and a family that relies on me. I'm not apathetic because I refuse to live in a tent in the market square*.

I have absolutely no idea how you would fight the current system. Personally, I think the next large global conflict will sort it out long before any protest movement changes anything. If I had any decent ideas, I'd share them.

*As do they. Police choppers with IR showed that 80% of tents were unoccupied overnight. Seems fighting capitalism doesn't keep you warm.

smokydave. a poster who i have always respected and taken (relatively) seriously. are you asking that every protest kid in every city in america hold the same sign up?

1; Don't take anything you read on the net seriously.

2; I'm talking about the UK. If the US protests are similarly dire then I guess I'm talking about them too.

Dude, i'm not rich but i can afford my own smart phone no problem. Also, my job (i've been working for a credit rating company since 1997) provides me with another smartphone. I gots two! And a samsung galaxy tablet! (well that tablet was a birthday gift from my father, who is sort of wealthy)
I would prefer coffe from my own thermos i guess, but a coffeshop would suffice if nothing else was around, since i do need my coffee fix.

I still dont see how this makes me a hypocrite when i oppose the unchecked and unhinged wall street capitalism. Opposing corporatism does not mean you oppose corporations, it means that you oppose the power they wield in society.

Are you living in a tent in your local market square?

 

[jorma]

Are you living in a tent in your local market square?

No. Would my credibility only take a hit if i support the OWS movement from a tent instead of my couch?

 

[SmokyDave]

No. Would my credibility only take a hit if i support the OWS movement from a tent instead of my couch?

Yup. You're not bothering anyone else when you sit there silently fuming. Same for me. I agree with the cause, just not the execution of the protests.

You quit work and pitch up a tent in town, you're going to piss me off directly (when I walk past your squalid camp) and indirectly (my taxes now pay your benefits, clean up costs for your squat and policing).

If you're not 'occupying' somewhere, I personally don't count you as part of the 'movement'. Certainly not the part I'm complaining about, anyway.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Maybe you should read urls and sources before posting them.

lol what? the irony in accusing me of reading some blog by david duke (i seriously have no idea who this is) because I posted an image of ANN COULTER is too much.

Are your some kind of AI that randomizes the wording of talking points? If I posted a picture of Hitler and it was linked to a pro-Nazi website, would that outrage you? Do you use search engines? Assuming you indeed are some kind of AI this would actually be somewhat of a logical explanation.

C3PO, that's you.

 

[coldvein]

1; Don't take anything you read on the net seriously.

2; I'm talking about the UK. If the US protests are similarly dire then I guess I'm talking about them too.

a. i'm only fourteen, so i'm just learning about the internet.

b. so are you really talking about the discrepancies between signs held up?

 

[Red Nightmare]

If in a perfect land (or simply 40 years ago) where the US has the best invest environment, the US has the best brain pool (regardless they are home born or foreigners), and every oil producing country listens to the US, what you said about "less regulation = good business = good society" is true. However the wind has changed, with current global competition the US just isn't that hot. Low level jobs go to Asia, middle level jobs go to Europe. People without job can't buy shit, demand goes down the toilet. Nobody buying shit means more people lose job, back to the "people can't buy shit" part. Meanwhile those banks, who don't even belong to the US but have their ass covered by the federal reserve, are behaving like a swarm of locusts, jump into one country, fuck it up, then next (first Japan, Korea, then most of the Europe and Greece being the first one to bust).

So yeah, I benefit from free trade I make bucks by doing super risky investment in other countries I have my ass covered by the US central bank and I don't pay much tax and I want even less tax, oh and OWS are just childish hippies. /sarcasm

Uh-huh. So, the solution is - more "stimulus"? Tried that, didn't work. Ummm.... what then.... how about... uhhh... higher taxes? Nope, that won't help. Put all bankers in concentration camps? Abolish private banking and allow the government to take over all banking? Bad, bad, bad.

How about allowing US industries to become more globally competitive by reducing restrictions on them? Do you know that US government puts exporters at a huge disadvantage with all the restrictions we have to observe? (I am an exporter.) Meanwhile other countries subsidize exporters.

 

[SmokyDave]

a. i'm only fourteen, so i'm just learning about the internet.

b. so are you really talking about the discrepancies between signs held up?

A; Leave now whilst you still have some innocence left.

B; Kinda, yeah. It's the presentation of the protest itself.

 

[smurfx]

i can't protest corporations buying up our politicians if i like starbucks? wtf?

 

[SmokyDave]

i can't protest corporations buying up our politicians if i like starbucks? wtf?

I can't protest the working conditions in Nike factories if I'm wearing Air Jordans? WTF?


Where do you think they got the money to buy the politicians?

 

[Karma Kramer]

i can't protest corporations buying up our politicians if i like starbucks? wtf?

don't forget, its not the idea or action thats important, but style and presentation! How dare these people live on the streets and not even make pretty signs for me to look at while I go about my day.

 

[coldvein]

B; Kinda, yeah. It's the presentation of the protest itself.

that's the gripe that i'm not quite understanding. the protest isn't a "presentation", it's not an hour long college lecture, it's more than that. it's not focused like that. it might never be focused like that. if EVERY SINGLE SIGN in EVERY SINGLE PROTEST across the world said "raise taxes on the rich, and tax the middle class fairly" something would really happen. but you, wise man, know that that is completely impossible.

 

[smurfx]

I can't protest the working conditions in Nike factories if I'm wearing Air Jordans? WTF?


Where do you think they got the money to buy the politicians?

they have money because they are successful. them being able to buy favors from washington is the fault of the people. we let politicians be bought and we have to take back all the power we have given them.

 

[SmokyDave]

they have money because they are successful. them being able to buy favors from washington is the fault of the people. we let politicians be bought and we have to take back all the power we have given them.

Cut them off at the source then. Stop supplying the money that makes all this possible.

 

[Red Nightmare]

that's the gripe that i'm not quite understanding. the protest isn't a "presentation", it's not an hour long college lecture, it's more than that. it's not focused like that. it might never be focused like that. if EVERY SINGLE SIGN in EVERY SINGLE PROTEST across the world said "raise taxes on the rich, and tax the middle class fairly" something would really happen. but you, wise man, know that that is completely impossible.

If they're trying to convince people of the righteousness of their cause, then they better damn well present their complaints & demands in a coherent manner. Otherwise people will write them off as a joke. Frankly, most people do look at them as a joke or an annoyance, just hippie wannabes, slackers, and left-wing malcontents. Fair? Maybe, maybe not. But that's the reality.

 

[Karma Kramer]

After a little more than a month of explosive growth, there’s a growing sense that Occupy Wall Street is at a crossroads.

“The first phase of this movement has peaked. And now it gets interesting,” says Kalle Lasn, editor of Adbusters, the magazine that issued the original call for a Sept. 17 protest on Wall Street. “The original magic of some of those general assemblies is wearing a little thin in some — though not all — places. And winter is coming. People are wondering whether they want to hang around for three hours talking about protocol.”

With its decentralized structure, it’s impossible to predict where the Occupy movement might end up. But we can at least identify the questions that will determine its future.

Can the movement move from tactic to strategy?

Michael Kazin, a historian of left movements, argued in an interview with Salon this week that the occupation of public spaces to bring attention to economic injustice and corruption on Wall Street is at heart a tactic – one that has been remarkably successful. Can Occupy now shift to a broader strategy for effecting change?

The answer to that question depends on what sort of change Occupy wants to accomplish, which is itself not a settled issue. Adbusters’ Lasn predicts the movement will go in a variety of directions. “I believe the movement will break up into components and there will be myriad projects bubbling up from the grass roots,” he says. He imagines campaigns centering on a variety of legislative goals designed to address economic injustice — or even the creation of a third party in America.

Brian Kelly, a New Yorker who has been working on the facilitation committee at Zuccotti Park, argues that it’s important to stress what Occupy has already achieved.

“The first thing to say is, and it needs to be repeated and articulated well, is that something has already been accomplished that is very important. Three months ago these conversations were not happening,” Kelly says. “Suddenly our corporate world starts to look a little more vaporous than it did a few months ago.”

More: http://www.salon.com/topic/occupy_wall_street/

 

[SmokyDave]

don't forget, its not the idea or action thats important, but style and presentation! How dare these people live on the streets and not even make pretty signs for me to look at while I go about my day.

If you go to court, you wear a suit. You know why? So that the judge and jury have a better impression of you. Presentation matters. If you're going to set up an 'Us Vs. Them', you better make sure that 'Us' is an appealing prospect.

that's the gripe that i'm not quite understanding. the protest isn't a "presentation", it's not an hour long college lecture, it's more than that. it's not focused like that. it might never be focused like that. if EVERY SINGLE SIGN in EVERY SINGLE PROTEST across the world said "raise taxes on the rich, and tax the middle class fairly" something would really happen. but you, wise man, know that that is completely impossible.

I'm just asking for clarity and decent presentation of the gripes. A single sign that says "Be motivated, not manipulated" is about as useful as a picture of Bowser eating a pineapple.

If they're trying to convince people of the righteousness of their cause, then they better damn well present their complaints & demands in a coherent manner. Otherwise people will write them off as a joke. Frankly, most people do look at them as a joke or an annoyance, just hippie wannabes, slackers, and left-wing malcontents. Fair? Maybe, maybe not. But that's the reality.

Precisely. No, it's not fair. Neither is the world, even with capitalism and consumerism put aside.

 

[Karma Kramer]

If you go to court, you wear a suit. You know why? So that the judge and jury have a better impression of you. Presentation matters. If you're going to set up an 'Us Vs. Them', you better make sure that 'Us' is an appealing prospect.

Are you arguing they should look flashy with designer jeans or they should look like the homeless? Maybe all dress up like Gandhi for Halloween?

 

[teruterubozu]

Are you arguing they should look flashy with designer jeans or they should look like the homeless?

I think people see the Tea Party now as a well-organized entity, which doesn't say much for the occupation.

 

[SmokyDave]

Are you arguing they should look flashy with designer jeans or they should look like the homeless?

I'm arguing that they should present a united front with clear goals and a roadmap of how they propose to achieve them. I don't need them dressed in Armani but if you've got a bottle of white cider in one hand, a mongrel dog in the other and a facial tattoo, I ain't buying whatever it is you're selling.

 

[smurfx]

I think people see the Tea Party now as a well-organized entity, which doesn't say much for the occupation.

the tea party was always represented as a well organized entity by the media. the occupy wall street guys weren't really represented well from the start and that shit continues today. also tea party guys are well organized since they are run by a bunch of rich people. -_-

I'm arguing that they should present a united front with clear goals and a roadmap of how they propose to achieve them. I don't need them dressed in Armani but if you've got a bottle of white cider in one hand, a mongrel dog in the other and a facial tattoo, I ain't buying whatever it is you're selling.

meh sounds like you are looking for any excuse to not listen to what they have to say. what's the point in reaching out to you if you won't even listen?

 

[teruterubozu]

the tea party was always represented as a well organized entity by the media. the occupy wall street guys weren't really represented well from the start and that shit continues today. also tea party guys are well organized since they are run by a bunch of rich people. -_-

Well, perception is perception, no matter how you slice it. Something has to happen to the occupation in terms of messaging. The East Coast winter is going to be a true test for these guys.

meh sounds like you are looking for any excuse to not listen to what they have to say. what's the point in reaching out to you if you won't even listen?

It's not like what they're saying is terribly complex or esoteric.

 

[coldvein]

If they're trying to convince people of the righteousness of their cause, then they better damn well present their complaints & demands in a coherent manner. Otherwise people will write them off as a joke. Frankly, most people do look at them as a joke or an annoyance, just hippie wannabes, slackers, and left-wing malcontents. Fair? Maybe, maybe not. But that's the reality.

i disagree with your judgement of "reality".

i understand smokydave's issue.

to me, the "reality" is that there are thousands of people across the world who are upset with their place and how they've been treated. some of us want a public option for healthcare. some of us want campaign finance reform. some of us want people to stop wearing the furs of endangered animals. how can all of that come together into ONE THING to change policy in america? i have no idea. it probably wont. but the fact that so many people are out there speaks for itself.

 

[Karma Kramer]

I'm arguing that they should present a united front with clear goals and a roadmap of how they propose to achieve them. I don't need them dressed in Armani but if you've got a bottle of white cider in one hand, a mongrel dog in the other and a facial tattoo, I ain't buying whatever it is you're selling.

What if I told you everyone on GAF had facial tattoos? You don't see it, but we all have facial tattoos...

I get your point about a united front, but this is a month into the occupation. Radical reform with these levels of participation would take at least a year if not more. There needs to be leadership definitely, there needs to be organization and right now, in this time we have on this planet we can either investigate and discuss the substantial elements of financial reform etc or we can stay focused on the clothing, smell and appearance of the people who are actually doing something, right or wrong, they are standing up for what they believe in, and they have the right to do that in a democratic society.

 

[smurfx]

i do agree that many of the protesters need to get together and give a united message. news media loves their talking points.

 

[teruterubozu]

What if I told you everyone on GAF had facial tattoos? You don't see it, but we all have facial tattoos...

I get your point about a united front, but this is a month into the occupation. Radical reform with these levels of participation would take at least a year if not more. There needs to be leadership definitely, there needs to be organization and right now, in this time we have on this planet when can either investigate and discuss the substantial elements of financial reform etc or we can stay focused on the clothing, smell and appearance of the people who are actually doing something, right or wrong, they are standing up for what they believe in, and they have the right to do that in a democratic society.

That's well and good. But I think at this point, and I don't think anyone disagrees on this point, the occupation is clearly in the "what now?" phase.

 

[coldvein]

i do agree that many of the protesters need to get together and give a united message. news media loves their talking points.

no doubt. we need it, right!? a bill o'reilly talking points memo...