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[Dartastic]

No, it isn't. Equality is, liberation is not.

lib·er·ate/ˈlibəˌrāt/
Verb:
Set (someone) free.
Free (a country, city, or people) from enemy occupation.

Women at one time were essentially shackled to being the stereotypical mother, forced to cook, clean, and otherwise be less than equal to men. They were in essence, not "free" to lead the same types of lives men were. They wanted to be set free from the conformist housewife belief. They wanted the same opportunities men had. Equality and liberation are both words that can be used in this context. It's just that the word "liberation" seems more revolutionary, which obviously scares you when it's on our home soil.

He's not talking about that Ann Colter pic is he?

He is.

 

[FlyinJ]

It's just that "liberation" seems more revolutionary, which obviously scares you when it's on our home soil.

And when it has to do with women, apparently.

Liberation of corporations from taxation and regulation, now that's a liberation!

 

[Fusebox]

He is.

What a mental case.

As if Ann Colter deserves anything other than a hate-fuck.

 

[akira28]

OWS does need to move on to something more than occupation. If they're waiting for more people to show up, it's going to be a slow grind until things get worse. And I think the law and enforcement will provoke things to try to burn them out before that happens. Wall Street will wait them out, the cities will tighten their grip.

Too many people who should support them are getting caught up on the imagery. We're all trained to focus on how things look. A friend of mine who mainly gets his news from CNN and other tv outlets, he sees the protesters as "trust fund kids who don't have to be at work, probably playing hookey from school so they can feel like they're 'fighting the power'", and while he supports the overall points of the movement, he feels like he can't relate to the people out there. He's at work, looking at the news reports, and all he can think is "damn kids". That is an image problem that exists, and has to be dealt with.

I don't agree with the superficial demands of people who say that the signage and demonstration props all have to be uniform or look 'professional'. But there is a divide that needs to be bridged. I think a focus on the volunteer activism, the homespun nature of the movement could become a positive if shown in the right light. And I do think they need to get together and discuss their image issues. They point is to reach people, and obstacles have been erected. This is Wall Street's money they're fucking with.

I think they could get away from the irony and the meme play. It's nice when we think we're being cute, but it's only so many "i can haz economic reform" kitty signs we can take. You're being ironic. We know. It hasn't helped us score in years either. Try actual wit.

I think some amateur style family videos of people getting motivated, making their signs, getting politically active, showing unity, would go a long way. I have some Grateful Dead mp3s that could provide the backdrop.

 

[alstein]

There is an attempt to do an official Declaration of grievances in the works.

http://the99delegation.forumotion.com/

Seriously, these guys could use help, especially if you're good at policy wonk stuff- this stuff is above my intellectual paygrade some.

http://iamlaurenleonardi.wordpress....e-occupy-movement-without-sleeping-in-a-park/

Also this can help.

 

[Dash27]

Worth watching the whole thing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGL-Ex1CD1c

 

[akira28]

links

Ah, I'll have to check these out. I also need to check out the OT more often. I usually have the habit of checking the last page and backtracking to see what I've missed, but Magicstop has done a good job putting that together.

If what's on these sites is any indication, there's really a flurry of behind the scenes activity. Doesn't look like this thing is stopping any time soon.

A little worried about mission creep, but the declaration group is trying to get reps from every state and they will be polling soon, so soon there will be an idea of who stands for what.

Reason Media video:
capitalist 1%r offers mea culpas, says blame the regulation system not the rule breakers. Claims the problem is that government is so easily bribed?

edit: had no idea that MTV VJ "Kennedy" was a self described "Conservative"? Now had her Libertarian awakening...

 

[MC Safety]

What a mental case.

As if Ann Colter deserves anything other than a hate-fuck.

Try for a touch more tolerance for people you don't agree with.

 

[rohlfinator]

Worth watching the whole thing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGL-Ex1CD1c

So he argues that wages were higher in the 50's due to less regulations and lower taxes (???), but also that companies like Apple are moving their manufacturing overseas because the government is keeping them from paying a competitive wage. So I guess the government is guilty of forcing wages to be both too high and too low. Brilliant.

I also liked the part where he was about to say "government created slavery" but they edited that bit out.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Dude its a bloody image used to make a joke... what the hell are you talking about

You need to learn to look before you use a source.

What a mental case.

As if Ann Colter deserves anything other than a hate-fuck.

Making excuses for Karma's excuses. Responsibility for everyone but yourself.

Where did I say a gave a shit about Ann Coulter.

 

[Captain Sparrow]

http://www.theatlantic.com/business...-arent-occupy-wall-streets-99-percent/246196/

We are the 99 percent. We are getting kicked out of our homes. We are forced to choose between groceries and rent. We are denied quality medical care. We are suffering from environmental pollution. We are working long hours for little pay and no rights, if we're working at all. We are getting nothing while the other 1 percent is getting everything. We are the 99 percent.

Does this really describe 99% of Americans?

Let's look at some of these claims:

* Foreclosure activity may affect somewhere in the ballpark of 10% of U.S. households. That's a tragically high percentage, to be sure. But it's no where near 99%.
* 15% of Americans live below the poverty line. That's clearly far too high a percentage, but again, it's a small minority.
* Before last year's Affordable Care Act, about 30 million Americans were uninsured, which is roughly 10% of the population. Of course, with the new law in place that number should approach zero.
* I have no idea how to quantify how many people are suffering from environmental pollution, but I strongly suspect if you got 100 people in a room and asked them, 99 would not say pollution is a huge problem in their lives.
* Wage growth certainly has been weaker than would be ideal, but 87.5% of Americans are satisfied with their jobs, according to Gallup. The underemployment rate is 16.2%.

This is the kind of reason why any good ideas behind this movement won't go anywhere. Couldn't we have just went for a few good regulations instead of stating 99% of society is being wronged?

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

lib·er·ate/ˈlibəˌrāt/
Verb:
Set (someone) free.
Free (a country, city, or people) from enemy occupation.

Women at one time were essentially shackled to being the stereotypical mother, forced to cook, clean, and otherwise be less than equal to men. They were in essence, not "free" to lead the same types of lives men were. They wanted to be set free from the conformist housewife belief. They wanted the same opportunities men had. Equality and liberation are both words that can be used in this context. It's just that the word "liberation" seems more revolutionary, which obviously scares you when it's on our home soil.

He is.

No, it's because it is hilariously overblown and of dramatic. It sounds more like some Shinng Path off shoot, than equality.

 

[Diatribe1974]

I'm watching more and more of the videos from these "99%" people and I'm seeing sooooooooooooo many uninformed people on who they need to really learn what's what & refocus their attention where it needs to be at.

 

[Chichikov]

http://www.theatlantic.com/business...-arent-occupy-wall-streets-99-percent/246196/

This is the kind of reason why this movement is bullshit. Couldn't we have just went for a few good regulations instead of stating 99% of society is being wronged?

I don't think anyone claimed that 99% are getting foreclosed or don't have healthcare.
That's some crazy ass straw-man the writer got there.

What the 99% means is that the government is working to the benefit of the ultra rich and big corporations at the expense of everyone else (but you know, it's easier to write 99% on a sign).
That is all.
It's fine to disagree with that message, but you shouldn't misrepresent it.

And for what it's worth, I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of people there will be more than happy with a few good rules and regulations.
I know I would.
Get me Glass–Steagall, public campaign finance and some tweaks to our tax code and I'm going home, happy.

p.s.
And don't get me started on the fact that he suggests that people want to some sort of Bolshevist system where a bus driver and a CEO get paid the same.
Who the fuck argues for that?
Like those are our two options, have the current rigged system or it's fucking communism.
And that's the biggest lie corny capitalists and free market fetishists ever told - that this is the only flavor of capitalism, and any and every deviation from it is Stalin.

 

[SouthernDragon]

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/...ercent/246196/
This is the kind of reason why any good ideas behind this movement won't go anywhere. Couldn't we have just went for a few good regulations instead of stating 99% of society is being wronged?

The other stuff has already been addressed, but I'd like to point out that that small % has a ripple effect on everyone else. The house next to me has been empty for 4-5 years, that's certainly affected property values and safety in my neighborhood.

 

[Chichikov]

The other stuff has already been addressed, but I'd like to point out that that small % has a ripple effect on everyone else. The house next to me has been empty for 4-5 years, that's certainly affected property values and safety in my neighborhood.

Not to mention solidarity.
I get it that some people only care about themselves and their immediate economic interests, but this is -

1. not the way everyone operates
2. not something to be proud of
3. not a reason to attack those who don't think like that

 

[rohlfinator]

I watched the rest of that Peter Schiff video... some more of his insights:
-The whole, if you make the highest tax bracket 75%, I'll just stop working to avoid paying higher taxes argument.
-To the self-identified 1%-er woman: "If you want to pay higher taxes, why don't you just send the government a bigger check?" lolz
-Europeans are not paying their stated marginal tax rates.

Also I'd like to know how the hell he is paying 50% of his income to the government. Unless he is counting state and local taxes in there too.

The guy makes a few good points, but a lot of his arguments are childish or just plain wrong.

Making excuses for Karma's excuses. Responsibility for everyone but yourself.

Where did I say a gave a shit about Ann Coulter.

Geez dude, why are you still going on about this? I used to think some people here gave you too much crap, but this argument is ridiculous.

 

[Myansie]

The other stuff has already been addressed, but I'd like to point out that that small % has a ripple effect on everyone else. The house next to me has been empty for 4-5 years, that's certainly affected property values and safety in my neighborhood.

The trickle up effect. Equality is important.

 

[sangreal]

Whats hypocritical about using products while protesting fraud by companies?

Last I checked, no one is protesting to ban business.

Im typing from a Dell computer.

My business with dell was as follows:

I give them money, they give me a quality computer. I gain the tools I need, they make a sale and a bit of profit.

Everyone is happy. I have no problem with them making money by selling me something I want. If another company better offered what I wanted, I would go to them.

Yay free market!

So why the protest?

If Dell takes said profit, and begins to lobby, we have a problem. I was buying a computer, not campaign ads for a person I don't support. If said lobbying results in laws that help dell, but hurt their competition, then we really have a problem. If said lobbying results in weakening of environmental rules, and the shifting of the tax burden from them to other, then we have a very serious problem.

I was buying a PC, not the beginning of anti-consumer imperialist intentions.

Thats the problem.

It's certainly your fault for not considering Dell's political activities as part of your transaction. You are funding them, so to protest them in the scenario you laid out is absolutely hypocritical. That is why we have boycotts and the saying "vote with your wallet." People making uninformed decisions both at the register and the polls is a large part of the problem.

 

[maharg]

It's certainly your fault for not considering Dell's political activities as part of your transaction. You are funding them, so to protest them in the scenario you laid out is absolutely hypocritical. That is why we have boycotts and the saying "vote with your wallet." People making uninformed decisions both at the register and the polls is a large part of the problem.

So who should he buy a computer from in order to buy from a more ethical company? Is such a thing even possible?

When it's virtually impossible to make informed and ethical consumer choices (as it is in the case of computers, cell phones, etc), it's not hypocritical to take part in society and also attempt to change it. Unless you think a viable protest is to just go live in the wilderness where no one even knows you exist.

 

[Milabrega]

Relevant Colbert coverage of the current thread discussion. 3:30 minutes in is the part i'm referencing.

 

[sangreal]

So who should he buy a computer from in order to buy from a more ethical company? Is such a thing even possible?

Of course it is. We're talking a direct contribution to the alleged problem, not some component supplier 3 sub-contractors deep that doesn't spend your money on American politics regardless.

(Even ignoring the fact that personal computers, smart phones, etc. are luxury items. Certainly Air Jordans.)

When it's virtually impossible to make informed and ethical consumer choices (as it is in the case of computers, cell phones, etc), it's not hypocritical to take part in society and also attempt to change it. Unless you think a viable protest is to just go live in the wilderness where no one even knows you exist.

It's absolutely hypocritical to protest something you are contributing to. That doesn't mean you can't, or shouldn't. It's entirely possible for a hypocrite to benefit society.

I guess our disagreement lies in the fact that I don't believe it is impossible to make informed and ethical consumer choices. At least as it relates to corporate influence in American politics. Therefore, I see the choice as explicit support for the corporate actions.

 

[Fusebox]

Try for a touch more tolerance for people you don't agree with.

We're talking about Ann Coulter.

You know, Ann Coulter...

Tolerance is earned.

 

[maharg]

I don't really think computers are a luxury item at this point. Certainly not if you're trying to make a difference in the world.

Still, though. Who's the ethical computer company to buy from? I'm genuinely curious. And as for the idea that non-American companies don't contribute to corporate lobbying in the US in some way, that strikes me as pretty laughable. Most computer parts are manufactured by huge corporations that almost certainly have their money in american politics.

 

[empty vessel]

Of course it is. We're talking a direct contribution to the alleged problem, not some component supplier 3 sub-contractors deep that doesn't spend your money on American politics regardless.

It's not possible to spend money on goods that corporations will not use to advance the political interests of their executives at our expense. More importantly, I shouldn't have to. Luckily, there's this thing called government that in a democracy we can get to do our bidding.

(Even ignoring the fact that personal computers, smart phones, etc. are luxury items. Certainly Air Jordans.)

Who cares? People who own luxury items cannot be dissatisfied with the status quo? What is this nonsense?

It's absolutely hypocritical to protest something you are contributing to. That doesn't mean you can't, or shouldn't. It's entirely possible for a hypocrite to benefit society.

Complete nonsense. The system offers no real alternatives, and martyrdom has never been a principle of mine. The problem is systemic, which is why political solutions are sought. I don't believe it is possible to change anything by changing my lifestyle or dropping out of the system. That being the case, why should I do it? Dropping out just makes me absent, which doesn't advance the goal of changing how things operate one iota.

I guess our disagreement lies in the fact that I don't believe it is impossible to make informed and ethical consumer choices. At least as it relates to corporate influence in American politics. Therefore, I see the choice as explicit support for the corporate actions.

Then you've never given it more than a second's thought. Do you realize how much time it would take to do this--there isn't enough time in the world. And then once its done how few options for living would exist? We are not opposed to laptops, and ipods, and ipads, and technology. We are opposed to the system--the rigged means by which those things are produced and distributed and who disproportionately benefits from it all because of the economic influence they hold over our democratic institutions.

 

[FlyinJ]

I don't really think computers are a luxury item at this point. Certainly not if you're trying to make a difference in the world.

Computers and cel phones/smart phones are integrated entirely into civilization at this point. You can't get a decent job without one or both, and it's also very hard to avoid using them in your every day life. There are also no alternative computer manufacturers who do not exploit their workforces. Again, this is WHY people are protesting.

It's absolutely ridiculous to mock the protesters for having computers then in the same breath yell "get a job!".

 

[Dude Abides]

Anyone who opposes ag subsidies is a hypocrite for eating.

Also, "women's liberation" aka "women's lib" is a term dating back to the 60s/70s. it's just a convention that some people still use. what a silly quibble.

 

[AstroLad]

Then you've never given it more than a second's thought. Do you realize how much time it would take to do this--there isn't enough time in the world. And then once its done how few options for living would exist? We are not opposed to laptops, and ipods, and ipads, and technology. We are opposed to the system--the rigged means by which those things are produced and distributed and who disproportionately benefits from it all.

let me guess you're also against "abuse of police power" but don't go around kicking cops in the nuts. hypocrite alert much?

 

[teh_pwn]

Worth watching the whole thing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGL-Ex1CD1c

He's right about some things, but I stopped watching when he said that taxes were lower in the 1950s. They were much, much higher. It's how we built the Eisenhower interstate system and funded the space program while simultaneously paying off the WW2 debt.

Here's the reason why stuff was cheap to make in the 1950s America:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tokyo_1945-3-10-1.jpg

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

We're talking about Ann Coulter.

http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/covers_450/978007353450.jpg[/ig]

You know, Ann Coulter...

[img]http://farm1.static.flickr.com/44/185005410_ad4aeb7eb9.jpg[/mg]

Tolerance is earned.[/QUOTE]I was talking about the source of his image. Ann Coulter herself is an ignorant asshole. Is anyone disagreeing on that point?

 

[Chichikov]

Here's the reason why stuff was cheap to make in the 1950s America:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tokyo_1945-3-10-1.jpg

Both Germany and Japan hit their pre-war production levels by the early-mid 50s.
Not to mention that the US was investing huge sums of money in both of these economies, plus they had the huge economic advantage of not being allowed to have a military force (therefor they couldn't divert resources into it).

I heard the argument that the US economic golden age was all due to the destruction of the axes' economy, but I have never seen it backed up with hard data (I'm not saying that such case cannot be made, I'm just saying that I have not seen it).

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

Who the hell defends Ann Coulter?

I don't think that deriding women's rights is "lol"worthy.

Manos is quite possibly the shittiest troll on this board.


He's actually surpassed "Kano On The Phone".

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Who the hell defends Ann Coulter?

No one was.

Manos is quite possibly the shittiest troll on this board..

Look I'm sorry I couldn't be on your podcast again, you need to come to terms with and move on.

 

[empty vessel]

Here's the reason why stuff was cheap to make in the 1950s America:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tokyo_1945-3-10-1.jpg

I haven't watched that Libertarian video, so I don't know if you are responding to something in that in particular, but I don't think anybody is complaining about how expensive stuff is to make today. The economic complaints are directed to how gains in the economy--whatever they are--get distributed amongst us all. The political complaints are directed towards the co-option of our democracy by corporate interests, financial or otherwise.

 

[kame-sennin]

Sorry if already posted:

http://swampland.time.com/2011/10/27/violence-gone-viral-and-the-lessons-of-occupy-oakland/

Nearly a day after the event, Quan, who has gone through several police chiefs in recent months, issued a statement of near complete contrition. “We have decided to have a minimal police presence at the plaza for the short term and build a community effort to improve communications and dialogue with the demonstrators,” she wrote. “I want to express our deepest concern for all of those who were injured last night, and we are committed to ensuring this does not happen again. Investigations of certain incidents are underway and I will personally monitor them. We understand and recognize the impact this event has had on the community and acknowledge what has happened. We cannot change the past, but we are committed to doing better. Most of us are part of the 99%, and understand the spirit of the Occupy Wall Street Movement. We are committed to honoring their free speech right.”

About Oakland mayor Jean Quan.

Wow, what a complete turnaround. It's amazing what this movement has already accomplished.

 

[RedAssedApe]

I saw this arrangement of pumpkins outside someone's house the other day. They had a sign up saying they were occupying the lawn. It was really lame. haha

 

[Wazzim]

We're talking about Ann Coulter.

You know, Ann Coulter...

Tolerance is earned.

Is that real? It can't be real.

 

[Alpha-Bromega]

i pretend she doesn't exist

 

[Particle Physicist]

What is this Ann coulter image you guys are speaking of?

 

[SouthernDragon]

Ideally, she'd be some be some ignorant waitress out in the backwoods.

But instead she's a nationally recognized pundit.

 

[Dunk#7]

Does this movement have a focus yet?


It still just seems like a bunch of people angry about random things in their lives.

This movement will go nowhere until they set a primary focus and goal.

 

[dave is ok]

CONGRATULATIONS TO MANOS!!!!

Most posts in yet another Occupy Wall Street thread! He didn't post for the first five pages or so to make sure he gave everyone else a head start, but once he got going he really put his all into it and came out on top.

 

[Dude Abides]

What is this Ann coulter image you guys are speaking of?

Karma Kramer pulled one from google that apparently originated at David Duke's website. Apparently this makes him a Klansman or something.

Does this movement have a focus yet?


It still just seems like a bunch of people angry about random things in their lives.

This movement will go nowhere until they set a primary focus and goal.

Hey guys, it's a penetrating insight that nobody's yet discussed in this thread!

 

[MC Safety]

We're talking about Ann Coulter.

Tolerance is earned.

Good for you for stopping an inch short of calling for her rape because you disagree with her politics. That is what you wanted to do, right?

 

[Marleyman]

Pretty cool; Military vets protecting Occupy Phoenix with AR-15's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BeH1nTqy14&feature=player_embedded

 

[Marleyman]

Marine reacts to fellow Marine being in a coma due to Oakland PD.

http://www.reddit.com/r/occupywalls..._i_feel_as_a_united_states_marine_about_what/

As a fellow (Active Duty) vet as well, though never a Marine. I can't stand this hypocritical stance that the elected officials are taking this horrible event. Though I was never a Marine, he is a brother in arms. As a family, we must stand together. I do recall that when I took my oath of enlistment that no where did it say that I will protect corporate greed. I know for one, if shit gets out of hand, I stand with the people and not the corporate lackeys.

 

[Mortrialus]

Pretty cool; Military vets protecting Occupy Phoenix with AR-15's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BeH1nTqy14&feature=player_embedded

A private, right wing militia actually doing something cool? That's different.

 

[Dunk#7]

Hey guys, it's a penetrating insight that nobody's yet discussed in this thread!

Does that make it any less relevant?

This country is so full of people just wanting a handout it makes me sick. Everybody in today's society feels they are entitled to everything.

Camping out in front of various buildings is not going to create more jobs.

Getting rid of labor unions that push wages higher than what the labor is worth would do a much better job of getting people back to work. Labor unions cause businesses to have less jobs available due to the fact that they are paying their current employees inflated wages. It also causes jobs to go oversees because it costs much more to produce the product here due to the wages of each person touching the product.

Labor unions were good for their intended purpose when they were started, but now there are laws on the books that protect workers and anything else should be covered by our legal system.

 

[Zabka]

Labor unions were good for their intended purpose when they were started, but now there are laws on the books that protect workers and anything else should be covered by our legal system.

And what happens to those laws without labor unions to protect them?

 

[badcrumble]

Does that make it any less relevant?

This country is so full of people just wanting a handout it makes me sick. Everybody in today's society feels they are entitled to everything.

Camping out in front of various buildings is not going to create more jobs.

Getting rid of labor unions that push wages higher than what the labor is worth would do a much better job of getting people back to work. Labor unions cause businesses to have less jobs available due to the fact that they are paying their current employees inflated wages. It also causes jobs to go oversees because it costs much more to produce the product here due to the wages of each person touching the product.

Labor unions were good for their intended purpose when they were started, but now there are laws on the books that protect workers and anything else should be covered by our legal system.

Lack of adequate protectionism causes jobs to go overseas. The only way for US workers to compete with impoverished third-world workers is for the US to acquire a third-world standard of living, which you're apparently fine with.