Official *** CELL processor announements **** Thread

Phoenix said:
Has OpenGL ES actually been confirmed as being a part of the PS3 toolchain or are we still making assumptions about the toolchain?
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Has it been confirmed officially to be part of the not existent yet PlayStation 3 SDK ? No, but seeing senior Khronos member state how the Next Generation PlayStation will use OpenGL ES 2.0, a certain inside rumor concerning a bunch of western companies ;), and SCE joining the Khronos group the way they did... well, it is quite likely. It is probable also that it won't be the only way of programming PlayStation 3 and this should show as a difference between Eastern and Western development houses.
 
Duckhuntdog said:
So no one has traveled over to teamxbox for a reaction? GAF dissappoints.
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I had a peek, and the damage control seems to be this (and I'm not kidding): PS3's CPU will be too powerful. You basically won't need any more power than what'll be in Xbox2's CPU. Games aren't CPU limited. More realistic physics? Pah. Who needs that. It'll be teh expensive (both the chip itself, and for any developers who want to make full use of it). etc. etc.

It's just......scary :lol

edit - wow, so much to digest. I went to sleep last night before all these detailed reports hit the web. I'm really interested in more detail on the PPE. Why does it need VMX? Just "bonus" processing power? Also interested to see how similar the actual implementation is compared to the patents, on a lower level, since they seem to have hit their targets at a high level (performance etc.). I dunno, someone correct me if I'm on completely the wrong track there..
 
FriScho said:
the only question I have. Will the Xbox2 CPU have similar performance?
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The expected set-up has three cores (same cores more or less as the PU we see here with a bigger yet shared L2 cache) and three VMX units.

Clock-speed should be about 3.5 GHz or more.

One VMX unit has a peak of 8 FP ops/cycle.

This CELL chip has 9 cores: one is the PU (PowerPC based) and the other 8 are the SPU's/APU's.

The clock speed should be about 4 GHz or more.

The PU has split L1 caches of 32 KB each (the EE's RISC core has only 8 KB of Data Cache, 16 KB of Instruction Cache and 16 KB of SPRAM) and 512 KB of L2 Cache (unified Instruction+Data). The PU comes with a VMX unit. The PU cores used in Xenon/Xbox 2's CPU and in CELL seem to be from the same in-order, Multi-Threaded design.

Each SPU/APU has a peak of 8 FP ops/cycle.
 
wafer.JPG


Any ideas? I don't think it's the GPU, but what is it?

Fredi
 
McFly said:
wafer.JPG


Any ideas? I don't think it's the GPU, but what is it?

Fredi
Click to expand...

Is that a 2PE chip? Only guessing here - it doesn't look like you could seperate those PEs, they seem to come in pairs...(?)

I'm still thinking 1PE in PS3, but that's an interesting picture, for now at least..;)
 
gofreak said:
Is that a 2PE chip? Only guessing here
Click to expand...

I'm only guessing as well, but I really can't see what else it is than a 2PE(+something else) chip.

Fredi

Edit: It could be for chip testing.
 
Desty said:
Hmm... also I think they are making the compiler open source so that people can alter it to make it better. I am not sure if that is a good sign.

It sounds like they stripped alot of things out to make it fast but really dumped much of the complexity onto the OS/compiler people which will ultimately push it onto the console programmer.
Click to expand...

I think it's premature to reach conclusions about this yet. We don't know enough (or much at all) about the OS and compilers - they may soak up a large amount of this responsibility, though the programmer will be given control too. The question is where the divide in responsibility will be. But saying that these responsibilities being pushed onto OS/Compiler people doesn't necessarily mean it'll be passed onto developers.
 
Panajev2001a said:
The expected set-up has three cores (same cores more or less as the PU we see here with a bigger yet shared L2 cache) and three VMX units.

Clock-speed should be about 3.5 GHz or more.

One VMX unit has a peak of 8 FP ops/cycle.

This CELL chip has 9 cores: one is the PU (PowerPC based) and the other 8 are the SPU's/APU's.

The clock speed should be about 4 GHz or more.

The PU has split L1 caches of 32 KB each (the EE's RISC core has only 8 KB of Data Cache, 16 KB of Instruction Cache and 16 KB of SPRAM) and 512 KB of L2 Cache (unified Instruction+Data). The PU comes with a VMX unit. The PU cores used in Xenon/Xbox 2's CPU and in CELL seem to be from the same in-order, Multi-Threaded design.

Each SPU/APU has a peak of 8 FP ops/cycle.
Click to expand...

Damn you pana. Just reply with a simple "yes" or "no"! ;)
 
Doing the math, the "simple" on-paper answer is no, taking the triple core 3.5Ghz "leaked specs" as truth.
 
It's interesting that we know more about the CPU setup in the PS3 than we do the XB2. We have rumours of a 3 core chip, new rumours suggesting 2 cores. MS has done pretty well to keep it underwraps to be honest. I still say MS ace up its sleve is the ATI GPU which I think MS expects to be special.
 
given that the cell can search for other cells what is the possibility of 2 1 X 8 cells on different dies in the same machine?
 
seanoff said:
given that the cell can search for other cells what is the possibility of 2 1 X 8 cells on different dies in the same machine?
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The idea of cell is that X number of PEs could all work together. But 2 PEs in one consumer level videogames console in 2006 is unlikely ;)

But IBM will have workstations out in that timeframe with multiple PEs.

I'm not sure about being on different dies though..they need to be interconnected. Pana could elaborate, perhaps.
 
gofreak said:
The idea of cell is that X number of PEs could all work together. But 2 PEs in one consumer level videogames console in 2006 is unlikely ;)

But IBM will have workstations out in that timeframe with multiple PEs.

I'm not sure about being on different dies though..they need to be interconnected. Pana could elaborate, perhaps.
Click to expand...

I really don't think is unlikely knowing Kutaragi's ambitions with his PS3.
Many could be really surprised next month :D at last I hope :)
 
Good lord. Unless you want your IQ to drop fifty points or so in sympathy, don't take a look at the TXB reactions. <shudder> I think I'll stick with Beyond3D's analysis - that part of it that isn't made by Deadmeat, anyway.
 
Elios83 said:
I really don't think is unlikely knowing Kutaragi's ambitions with his PS3.
Many could be really surprised next month :D at last I hope :)
Click to expand...

I'm going to stick to "safety" and moderate my expectations..don't set yourself up for (potential) disappointment! :)
 
You just gotta love spong...

"A year behind schedule, can the PlayStation 3’s Cell shrug off vapourware claims?"

http://news.spong.com/x?art=8309

...
For an idiot’s guide to Cell expectations, see our article here.

So we are left with the question, now that the Cell is more than a vapourware dream (various dies were shown at the event as pictured) where does this leave the PlayStation 3 and its launch? SPOnG considers it unlikely that the East Fishkill will manufacture PlayStation 3 chips, with that being left to Sony’s Nagasaki facility. Production there, as outlined above, commences at an unspecificed point this year. So essentially, the PlayStation 3 could be on shelves within 2005 though of course, that’s wildly unlikely.

What is more likely is first-generation hardware dev kits shipping in time for Christmas, replacing the high-end PC with port guidelines adopted by studios across the world. SPOnG then estimates that Sony could realistically see a PlayStation 3 launch in time for Easter 2006. Although software would be very thin on the ground, SCEI has never seen this as an obstacle to launching a home machine. Option two would be to launch the PS3 late 2006 in time for the holiday period, though with Microsoft already racking up a year of Xbox 2 by then, timeframes may have to overpower a credible launch line-up.

And of course, Sony still has its Dreamcast-killing trick up its sleeve. The dark horse of ‘wait and see’ which worked with lethal efficiency at the dawn of the current generation of platforms.
Click to expand...
 
sonycowboy said:
You just gotta love spong...

"A year behind schedule, can the PlayStation 3’s Cell shrug off vapourware claims?"

http://news.spong.com/x?art=8309
Click to expand...


:lol :lol :lol :lol
Misinformation,the Cell prototype presented at the ISSCC is no way confirmed to be the PS3 CPU.
Also what year behind are they talking about?
Sony is following its internal schedule perfectly.
Dev kits will arrive in March as Kutaragi has said since the September 2004 Playstation meeting.There's really no need for their futile and false speculation on things already officially cleared.
 
iapetus said:
They're admitting that their guides are written by idiots? :|
Click to expand...

"For an idiot’s guide to Cell expectations"

By idiots to idiot readers? wth?

Well, at least they know their stuff :lol
 
http://gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=6700

Cell consortium reveals chip details, claim 4GHz + clock speeds

Rob Fahey 12:11 08/02/2005

Few surprises at unveiling, but eight-SPU design and high clock speeds are confirmed

Official details of the Cell microprocessor have been revealed by partners IBM, Sony and Toshiba, with the multi-core architecture set to be capable of processing ten threads on a single chip clocked at over 4Ghz.

The chip package will consist of a 64 bit Power processor - similar to the CPUs being used in the Xbox 2 and PowerMac G5 systems - which can process two threads simultaneously, along with eight "synergistic processing units".

These SPUs are the real horsepower behind the chip; each one has 256KB of its own memory and can handle computing tasks separately from the main processor, which will be responsible for dividing up tasks between the SPUs and running the operating system.

While clock speeds are an almost entirely meaningless measurement of processor performance, especially when comparing chips as radically different as Cell and the existing Intel / AMD families, much attention has been focused on the claim that the Cell could start out at speeds of over 4GHz.

Despite not being a clear indicator of actual performance, the speed is still a PR coup for IBM and its partners - since Intel's range of chips currently maxes out at 3.8GHz, while Cell may go as high as 4.6GHz in its early incarnations.

More useful as a performance measurement is the chip's rating in terms of calculations per second, or "gigaflops", with Cell rated at 256 gigaflops according to IBM - a fair bit short of an entry in the Top 500 Supercomputers list, which starts at 851 gigaflops, but still enormously powerful for a single chip, and of course the chips are designed to operate efficiently in clusters.

Indeed, it's widely expected that the PlayStation 3 could boast as many as four Cell chips, which would give a theoretical CPU performance of over 1000 gigaflops, or one teraflop - a very theoretical measure, admittedly, but still enough to earn the PS3 a place on the supercomputer list.

Another aspect of the performance which IBM has been quick to champion is the memory bandwidth available to the Cell, with the design utilising RAMBUS interface technology that delivers an unprecedented one hundred gigabytes per second of bandwidth to the chip, with separate interfaces for communicating with system memory and with other CPUs.

Despite Sony's claims, one thing we won't be seeing in the near future is Cell being used in portable devices such as mobile phones - according to an IBM spokesperson, the chip, which is initially being manufactured on a 90 nanometre process but will eventually move down to 65 nanometre, runs hot enough to require a cooling fan, like most desktop CPUs.

Spokespeople from the Cell consortium were quick to point out the flexibility of the system, saying that the multi-processor architecture could be used in a variety of different ways by game developers or other software creators.

However, game developers contacted by GamesIndustry.biz downplayed speculation that the PS3 would be incredibly difficult to program as a result of the new architecture, saying that the main difficulty would be the move to a multi-core system - a design shared by the Xbox 2 and almost certainly by the Nintendo Revolution.

The game development model which is used for PlayStation 2, where a few programmers work directly with the low level code to create libraries for specific functions and other developers simply use those libraries, masking the complexity of the underlying system, is likely to work just as well on PlayStation 3, while the prevalence of middleware such as Criterion's RenderWare or the Havok physics engine will also make the transition less painful.

Another factor fingered by developers is the fact that Sony's PlayStation Portable libraries and documentation have been widely praised by those working on the system, indicating that Sony has learned an important lesson from the PS2 launch - where much of the development difficulty lay not with the system itself, but with poorly translated (or un-translated) documentation and difficult to use libraries.

Along with the Cell processors, the PlayStation 3 is also set to use a graphics chipset from NVIDIA, which will be based on the company's next generation of GPU, following on from the hugely successful 6000 series of PC graphics cards.
Click to expand...
 
Indeed, it's widely expected that the PlayStation 3 could boast as many as four Cell chips, which would give a theoretical CPU performance of over 1000 gigaflops, or one teraflop - a very theoretical measure, admittedly, but still enough to earn the PS3 a place on the supercomputer list.
Click to expand...

what.
 
Indeed, it's widely expected that the PlayStation 3 could boast as many as four Cell chips, which would give a theoretical CPU performance of over 1000 gigaflops, or one teraflop - a very theoretical measure, admittedly, but still enough to earn the PS3 a place on the supercomputer list.
Click to expand...

No, no it's not.

Wreckless speculation makes baby jesus etc. etc.
 
sp0rsk said:
what.
Click to expand...

Confused reporting there, they are mangling the previous rumours of the PS3's 4*PE cell as "4 cell chips".

Given yesterdays reports I'd say a 1*PE cell is likely, a 2*PE cell is not impossible and a 4*PE cell is now highly unlikely.

Still, even the 1*PE or 2*PE configurations give a hell of a lot of processing power, especially as this doesn't even take the GPU into consideration.

I just hope that this power is more accessible to Sony / PS3 devs this generation.
 
thorns said:
Overall, I'm quite excited about Cell in how it relates to scientific computing, but it seems it will be a nightmare to write software for it due to the massive parallelism. As far as PS3 goes, how many GFLOPS it has won't matter either way, since we've been proven again and again that the average consumer doesn't give a shit about how impressive a game is technically. I do hope that the gap won't be as big as it was this gen, though.
Click to expand...
Thorns, you're quoting an article that's at least a year old now and was wildly speculative at the time. There aren't likely to be "dozens" of processors in the PS3 as Sweeney moans about and, in any case, it sounds as if parallelism is something he's going to have to deal with on next gen consoles whether he chooses Xbox2, PS3 or Revolution. If you're going to worry about the complexities of next gen game programming, its a general issue, more because of the ambition of the software than because of the design of the hardware.
 
Vortac said:
Open source tools...open source support

It's going to be a repeat of this gen in terms of Japanese developers being the only ones to actually take advantage of Sony's architectural preferences

The next generation will not be fought with hardware. Microsoft knows it's all about the games. Sony is at this point in danger of losing sight of that, as they are more of a hardware company than Microsoft you know, and have a very vested interest in seeing their entertainment business stay alive and kicking by continuing to make every living breathing Japanese person spend their nickels and dimes on anything with the word Sony on it.

CELL is a monster, but the *PS3* at this point is looking like it's going to be less feature rich than Xenon and only a *little* more powerful (and pretty much worthless to try to extract that power unless you're Square and especially because everything is going to be Xenon first and middleware'd to PS3). Microsoft has the bang for the buck equation to the T.
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Don't do drugs man...
 
Its gonna take a while to harness this beast to its full potential. I pet most of the PE units will be idle as programmers will prefer to avoid possible bugs , until someone comes along that isnt scared to go whole hog. It is the next step though so we better get used to it.
 
yeah I'll bet most early first generation PS3 games only make use of the PU aka PPE (the POWER cpu core) plus the nvidia GPU, avoiding to use the multiple APUs aka SPUs aka SPEs. using the SPUs to divide up processing tasks is going to be a bitch, no matter what STI says. even if they provide better documentation than Sony did during the early days of PS2.

take away the SPUs and you have, basicly an Xbox2 :lol


[/wild speculation]
 
Times Online Q & A:

Q&A: The superchip
Holden Frith answers some of the questions raised by the launch of the Chip

How soon will it be before I can buy a product that uses the Cell?

Its first scheduled appearance will be in the Sony PlayStation 3 games console, which should go on sale in early 2006. A prototype is expected to feature at the E3 computer fair in Los Angeles this May.

What difference will it make to the equipment?

The Cell chip is faster than existing microchips because it can work on several tasks at once. Computers with Cell chips can also share processing power so that if one computer is not working at full speed, another connected to it by a network or the internet can make use of its spare computing capacity.

What difference will Cell users notice?

In games consoles, faster microchips will allow game designers to employ higher quality sound and smoother, more realistic graphics. There is already suggestions that greater use of graphics from Hollywood movies may be possible.

In PCs, the main use will be multimedia applications as Cell chips will be better able to process the vast amount of information delivered by ever-faster broadband internet connections.

According to IBM, today's microchips were created with word processors and spreadsheets in mind and therefore struggle to cope with tasks such as downloading music and displaying video. The Cell chip has been designed to address this shortcoming.

And what difference might it make to the price of these goods?

It will make them more expensive, at least in the early stages of production. Financial analysts have suggested that the high cost of the PlayStation 3, which they predict will have to be priced at between $500 and $750 when it is launched in the United States, will deter potential buyers. As always with computers, though, the price is likely to fall quite rapidly with time.

What is meant by "clock speed" and "flash memory"?

The clock speed of a microchip is a measure of how quickly it can perform calculations and therefore how powerful it is. The 4 Gigahertz Cell chip will be able to perform four billion calculations per second.

Flash memory refers to the ability of a chip to store information so that it doesn't have to send it to another part of the computer for safe keeping. The more information it can store, the faster it will complete its work. Flash memory is familiar to many people who own digital cameras, which use Compact Flash cards to store photographs.

Will the Cell make my existing home PC or games console obsolete, or can I upgrade them?

The PlayStation 3 is likely to replace the PS2 just as that replaced the initial PlayStation in 2000, but there will probably be a crossover period when new game releases will continue for the older model.

Upgrading existing PCs is unlikely to be possible as the new processor requires completely different software. However, since many people do not push their PCs to the limits, the mass desertion of traditional microchips is unlikely in the immediate future.
Click to expand...

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,9075-1475581,00.html

Interesting. :)

Fredi
 
i dont think it will be the cell that costs that much , the volume for the chip should be massive, Sony, Toshiba, and IBM are all utilizing it, for servers, consoles , and other media devices it should be a rather cheap processor in that volume.
 
DonasaurusRex said:
i dont think it will be the cell that costs that much , the volume for the chip should be massive, Sony, Toshiba, and IBM are all utilizing it, for servers, consoles , and other media devices it should be a rather cheap processor in that volume.
Click to expand...

Not if they put 4 of them in there. ;-)

Fredi
 
Major components in PS3
--------------------------------
1) Cell Processor
2) GPU
3) Blu-Ray Drive
4) Rambus Memory
5) HDD (if included)
6) Networking(wireless, wired, whatever)
7) Motherboard
8) Single controller
9) I/O Processor (including audio / video / controller / networking io)

Major components in Xbox360
-----------------------------------
1) IBM 3-core PPC
2) ATI GPU
3) DVD Drive (or HD-DVD if included)
4) Memory
5) HDD (if included)
6) Networking (wireless, wired, whatever)
7) Motherboard
8) Single controller
9) I/O Processor (including audio / video / controller / networking io)
 
sonycowboy said:
Major components in PS3
--------------------------------
1) Cell Processor
2) GPU
3) Blu-Ray Drive
4) Rambus Memory
5) HDD (if included)
6) Networking(wireless, wired, whatever)
7) Motherboard
8) Single controller
9) I/O Processor (including audio / video / controller / networking io)

Major components in Xbox360
-----------------------------------
1) IBM 3-core PPC
2) ATI GPU
3) DVD Drive (or HD-DVD if included)
4) Memory
5) HDD (if included)
6) Networking (wireless, wired, whatever)
7) Motherboard
8) Single controller
9) I/O Processor (including audio / video / controller / networking io)
Click to expand...

sony should take out the blu ray Rom from PS3, those are expensive as hell and not worth it IMO.

They cost like $900 US!?!
 
Doom_Bringer said:
sony should take out the blu ray Rom from PS3, those are expensive as hell and not worth it IMO.

They cost like $900 US!?!
Click to expand...

What is sony's actual cost though?
And if they use the writeable version, then the need for a HDD goes bye bye
 
Suikoguy said:
What is sony's actual cost though?
And if they use the writeable version, then the need for a HDD goes bye bye
Click to expand...


Lets see, they probably spent a lot of money on R&D to cut the current costs and make them backward's compatible with Cd's and dvd's, not really worth it imo.

They should have gone with the cheaper DVD solution just like Microsoft because things like Cell and Nvidia GPU will cost a lot of money and make the system more expensive.
 
Doom_Bringer said:
Lets see, they probably spent a lot of money on R&D to cut the current costs and make them backward's compatible with Cd's and dvd's, not really worth it imo.

They should have gone with the cheaper DVD solution just like Microsoft because things like Cell and Nvidia GPU will cost a lot of money and make the system more expensive.
Click to expand...

Blu-Ray is already in. End of discussion.
 
gofreak said:
I had a peek, and the damage control seems to be this (and I'm not kidding): PS3's CPU will be too powerful. You basically won't need any more power than what'll be in Xbox2's CPU. Games aren't CPU limited.
Click to expand...


HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH


(oh man, that's some good shit...)
 
Doom_Bringer said:
Lets see, they probably spent a lot of money on R&D to cut the current costs and make them backward's compatible with Cd's and dvd's, not really worth it imo.

They should have gone with the cheaper DVD solution just like Microsoft because things like Cell and Nvidia GPU will cost a lot of money and make the system more expensive.
Click to expand...

Do you realize how much R&D money Sony as a whole has put into Blu-Ray ? Including a Blu-Ray ROM drive into PlayStation 3 would help Blu-Ray as a format, give more hype points to layStation 3 and reduce the cost of blu-laser solutions for Sony as it would increase a lot the manufacturing volume of said solutions.

They have already developed an optical pick-up system that combines CD/DVD/Blu-Ray reading capabilities into one single device, they know what they are doing.
 
The expected set-up has three cores (same cores more or less as the PU we see here with a bigger yet shared L2 cache) and three VMX units.
Click to expand...
Hasn't it been said that it has two cores, or is that article pure BS?

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/07/technology/07chip.html

In its next version of the Xbox, Microsoft plans to shift from using Pentium chips from Intel to a PowerPC microprocessor from I.B.M. The chip will have two PowerPC processor cores, but it will not be as radically new as the I.B.M. Cell design that Sony plans to use, said one executive who is familiar with the Microsoft project.
Click to expand...
 
doncale said:
yeah I'll bet most early first generation PS3 games only make use of the PU aka PPE (the POWER cpu core) plus the nvidia GPU, avoiding to use the multiple APUs aka SPUs aka SPEs. using the SPUs to divide up processing tasks is going to be a bitch, no matter what STI says. even if they provide better documentation than Sony did during the early days of PS2.

take away the SPUs and you have, basicly an Xbox2 :lol


[/wild speculation]
Click to expand...

Kinda like how the PS2 without vector units was only about as powerful as a Dreamcast...
 
BRD is in, and the PS3 will drive the economies of scale down for the drive components fast. HD-DVD could only dream of the kind of sales the PS3 is targeting. HD-DVD needs a vessel...fast. PEACE.
 
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