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[itsnervedamage]

I did plenty of jumping in PvE as well, but with hip fire accuracy being less than ADS, I couldn't double jump around a room picking off enemies easily while in the air. I feel like the movement in Destiny facilitates fast and creative contact scenarios and increasing hip fire accuracy makes that less likely because why even bother if you can jump and headshot from 25 feet away?

Well, I don't think my snap aim is good enough to dominate from the sky like that with the movement from jumping and landing. There's already an added layer of difficulty and disorientation from all that movement, tracking moving targets isn't that easy.

I'm of the opinion the PvP should be built to be interesting first, the PvE is already skewed by loot and you could tweak the AI variables to discourage jumping. Make the AI do the dodging more when you jump etc. The elite captains did a pretty good job running under me and shooting me full blast as I landed in Legendary, and those snipers were pretty good at tracking. I think they can force methodical gameplay in the PvE encounters pretty easily.

 

[Brohan]

How does that particular suggestion not satisfy both groups?

Because it would render ADS virtually useless, it would leave those who like to use it in a disadvantage because ADS would be nothing more than an extra button press.

 

[Overdoziz]

I don't think there should be the removal of ADS at all. It will belittle the point to having different types of scopes and customizing your weapon.

Inversely, I don't have a problem with them upping the accuracy slightly' of hip fire while jumping.

A Halo type of zoom in instead of ADS could still make use of different scopes no problem. You can also still do stuff like changing the reticle size and shape while aiming from the hip. I don't think it would be that much of an issue.

 

[The Librarian]

If you say so but to me it doesn't really seem like you are giving counter arguments the attention they deserve.

Such as?

 

[Tobor]

See, this doesn't make any sense to me. The earliest FPS, as far as I'm aware, didn't have ADS. They were fun, accessible, and it didn't really matter what people expectations of a gun were. What's changed?

*Shrugs* It satisfies both groups.

This is a strange argument, Dax. A fuck ton has changed since the earliest FPS. There are plenty of features seen as standard now that didn't exist back then.

 

[Flo_Evans]

See, this doesn't make any sense to me. The earliest FPS, as far as I'm aware, didn't have ADS. They were fun, accessible, and it didn't really matter what people expectations of a gun were. What's changed?

*Shrugs* It satisfies both groups.

The earliest FPS games didn't have a lot of things. Should we go back to health pack backtracking because that was the original gameplay design of first person shooters?

 

[OverHeat]

I have watch dogs And wolfenstein to finish and all I think of playing is destiny...

 

[The Librarian]

This is a strange argument, Dax. A fuck ton has changed since the earliest FPS. There are plenty of features seen as standard now that didn't exist back then.

My main point with that was just because something is standard doesn't mean it's necessarily good.

The earliest FPS games didn't have a lot of things. Should we go back to health pack backtracking because that was the original gameplay design of first person shooters?

If that suits the particular type of gameplay the developer is going for, sure, why not?

 

[Vire]

A Halo type of zoom in instead of ADS could still make use of different scopes no problem. You can also still do stuff like changing the reticle size and shape while aiming from the hip. I don't think it would be that much of an issue.

This game isn't Halo, deal with it.

 

[alatif113]

I think you're being unfair here. By that definition sure, my recommendation is selfish. But going by this logic, any sort of game recommendation is selfish, and you're saying I'm being selfish...why?

You're asking me to explain why a recommendation to suit your definition of fun is selfish?

How does that particular suggestion not satisfy both groups?

Because you take a major speed and peripheral vision penalty when ADS? Hence why it is balanced.

Now I feel like I'm being trolled if I have to answer simple questions such as these.

My main point with that was just because something is standard doesn't mean it's necessarily good.

Once again, your definition of good.

 

[Brohan]

Such as?

Not sure if serious? How about the argument that it brings more layers to the gameplay which results in a more strategic approach with more deliberate actions? Having to think twice about what's best for the current situation you are in?

 

[Nokagi]

I miss taking pictures of the sky. The photographer class was really fun.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Exactly. Destiny would be a more interesting game if they removed the accuracy penalties tied with ADS and character movement. It would definetly open up the gameplay, that's for sure.

IMO, only Counter-Strike implements them well (accuracy penalties) and, funnily enough, it does so without ADS. Heh.

I don't see how removing ADS and making hip fire more accurate leads to more interesing gameplay. It results in less options and specifically facilitates the Halo playstyle. Now, enjoying the Halo playstyle is fine, but this game is not Halo so complaints about the gun game being different than Halo seem short sighted.

Destiny's gun play isn't Halo, it isn't CS, and it isn't CoD. It's different. Which means that it will develop it's own "meta" so-to-speak and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

 

[The Librarian]

You're asking me to explain why a recommendation to suit your definition of fun is selfish?

You're arguing semantics now I feel. You're essentially saying any recommendation at all I can think of to make is selfish and thus invalidates it.

 

[Gherid__lacksGPS]

That would be badass. I can live with not letting us fly them, but this would give an awesome incentive to upgrade your ship. Also, I really hope they end up doing the thing where when you enter an area, you jump down from your ship. That was awesome.

Seriously, there has to be something more to them other than aesthetic and "personality", since they seem to have such a presence. It's amazing how little we know about the game, lol. I have a feeling there's going to be A LOT of holy shit moments and first time grins. Can't wait.

 

[The_Reckoning]

I miss taking pictures of the sky. The photographer class was really fun.

If only it didn't rely so much on ADL.

Seriously though, there needs to be HUD options, just for photos. Too many pretty things to see.

 

[itsnervedamage]

My main point with that was just because something is standard doesn't mean it's necessarily good.

I don't know if there is much to argue around once you've boiled it down to this point. People who like ADS like the extra layer of decision making it adds, those who don't think it's complexity that doesn't add to the fun.

The devs made their bet on what people will like more.

I'm wondering how many people who really dug the alpha have played MMOs previously? This may come off as a negative post and I apologize for that but there were some things that just rubbed me a bit wrong.

I found the random quests from the beacons to be of the more boring variety of filler quests put in to MMOs (fetch this, go look at this, kill enemies that drop x, etc.) and I quickly grew bored of them. I'm hoping there are more dynamic quests in the beta/final game like you happen upon some NPCs being attacked by Hive or whatever and you help them out or you pick up a distress call from an outpost and head over there to help them during an attack or something.

Also, the Sepiks Prime fight wasn't really exciting. It was a big sphere (with a weak spot to attack for massive damage!) that teleported around and shot lasers at you while adds spawned around you. Again, I'm hoping that there are more dynamic fights in future Strikes (perhaps breaking up the fire team in different areas, multi-stage bosses, environment interaction, etc.)

The alpha was fun and polished no doubt but maybe I'm just jaded to what MMOs have offered in the past and I'm expecting Bungie to surpass what I have seen before.

Yeah, the world side quests were pretty bare. I quite liked the strike though, I thought it was pretty reminiscent of old school FPS boss battles. Eyeball was as interesting as you wanted it to be, you could be pretty aggressive about it and it took maybe 6 min to take down on Brave. Get out there and dodge those cannon shots!

Not an MMO guy myself, but I like boss runs for some reason - Monster Hunter, Soul Sacrifice, or stuff like Warframe.

 

[Jackbooted]

I'm wondering how many people who really dug the alpha have played MMOs previously? This may come off as a negative post and I apologize for that but there were some things that just rubbed me a bit wrong.

I found the random quests from the beacons to be of the more boring variety of filler quests put in to MMOs (fetch this, go look at this, kill enemies that drop x, etc.) and I quickly grew bored of them. I'm hoping there are more dynamic quests in the beta/final game like you happen upon some NPCs being attacked by Hive or whatever and you help them out or you pick up a distress call from an outpost and head over there to help them during an attack or something.

Also, the Sepiks Prime fight wasn't really exciting. It was a big sphere (with a weak spot to attack for massive damage!) that teleported around and shot lasers at you while adds spawned around you. Again, I'm hoping that there are more dynamic fights in future Strikes (perhaps breaking up the fire team in different areas, multi-stage bosses, environment interaction, etc.)

The alpha was fun and polished no doubt but maybe I'm just jaded to what MMOs have offered in the past and I'm expecting Bungie to surpass what I have seen before.

 

[alatif113]

You're arguing semantics now I feel. You're essentially saying any recommendation at all I can think of to make is selfish and thus invalidates it.

No. You're current recommendation is selfish. Don't act like you gave out 5 or 6. You gave ONE to fit your needs. More specifically, you want to remove something others might enjoy just because you do not enjoy it.

Hmm lets think of a good recommendation. Maybe take the best of both worlds and give each option a set of pros and cons? Oh wait...the devs are already implementing that.

 

[The Librarian]

I don't know if there is much to argue around once you've boiled it down to this point. People who like ADS like the extra layer of decision making it adds, those who don't think it's complexity that doesn't add to the fun.

The devs made their bet on what people will like more.

First part of your post I agree with and think that sums up the dilemma nicely.

Second part is a bit iffy. Bungie has always said their philosophy is to make games they find fun. So maybe they find ADS in this way fun.

No. You're current recommendation is selfish. Don't act like you gave out 5 or 6. You gave ONE to fit your needs. More specifically, you want to remove something others might enjoy just because you do not enjoy it.

Um...http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=117052577&postcount=907

 

[alatif113]

First part of your post I agree with and think that sums up the dilemma nicely.

Second part is a bit iffy. Bungie has always said their philosophy is to make games they find fun. So maybe they find ADS in this way fun.

Um...http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=117052577&postcount=907

We're talking about ADS, are we not?

 

[Twilight Gap]

I'm wondering how many people who really dug the alpha have played MMOs previously? This may come off as a negative post and I apologize for that but there were some things that just rubbed me a bit wrong.

I found the random quests from the beacons to be of the more boring variety of filler quests put in to MMOs (fetch this, go look at this, kill enemies that drop x, etc.) and I quickly grew bored of them. I'm hoping there are more dynamic quests in the beta/final game like you happen upon some NPCs being attacked by Hive or whatever and you help them out or you pick up a distress call from an outpost and head over there to help them during an attack or something.

Also, the Sepiks Prime fight wasn't really exciting. It was a big sphere (with a weak spot to attack for massive damage!) that teleported around and shot lasers at you while adds spawned around you. Again, I'm hoping that there are more dynamic fights in future Strikes (perhaps breaking up the fire team in different areas, multi-stage bosses, environment interaction, etc.)

The alpha was fun and polished no doubt but maybe I'm just jaded to what MMOs have offered in the past and I'm expecting Bungie to surpass what I have seen before.

I'd agree with you. For your first point, it doesn't seem like they plan to put combat NPCs in the game since they're going to use the "seamless matchmaking" to pair players up with other players. This would be fine if it ends up working the way they want, but even seeing NPCs out in the world in addition to this will go a long way to putting life in the game and improving the missions like you said.

As for strikes, it would be interesting if there were areas that required two or three players to stand simultaneously for, say 60 seconds, to deactivate a gate. This could make those encounters a bit more diverse as opposed to standing on a balcony sniping everything that pools together in the center of the room.

 

[Vire]

I'm wondering how many people who really dug the alpha have played MMOs previously? This may come off as a negative post and I apologize for that but there were some things that just rubbed me a bit wrong.

I found the random quests from the beacons to be of the more boring variety of filler quests put in to MMOs (fetch this, go look at this, kill enemies that drop x, etc.) and I quickly grew bored of them. I'm hoping there are more dynamic quests in the beta/final game like you happen upon some NPCs being attacked by Hive or whatever and you help them out or you pick up a distress call from an outpost and head over there to help them during an attack or something.

The alpha was fun and polished no doubt but maybe I'm just jaded to what MMOs have offered in the past and I'm expecting Bungie to surpass what I have seen before.

I actually liked those random filler quests because it felt different than something like World of Warcraft - it was a first person shooter and I enjoyed the combat enough where just fighting the AI was a reward unto itself.

Typically in other MMO's the combat is dull and that's why those tasks feel like such a laborious chore. It was like playing Firefight in Halo, but getting rewarded with experience and money that can help improve my character.

That was enough for me.

 

[Ascenion]

No, I didn't write that incorrectly. I don't want ADS because I think it works mechanically better with Destiny's combat, not because I want Halo. And it works because Destiny is, mechanically, already very similar to Halo.

I see. Okay I understand more where you're coming from. I think alpha is too early to tell but based on where it seems they are going I agree with you somewhat. Combat felt like they were between CoD and Halo mechanically leaning more towards Halo because its what they know. At this point I'd say double down on ADS which means reticle bloom and a tad more recoil or go with your opinion tighten up recoil a bit and put ADS back on R3. Just a little push further in either direction.

Regardless of whether that poster wants halo or not. That is completely irrelevant. The discussion is about the gameplay mechanics of Destiny. It is not about how these games are similar. We are specifically talking about how things work in Destiny and how they could be changed. Whether or not they will be changed is up to Bungie, but the fact that another poster may or may not want this to be halo means nothing in accordance to the point of the discussion.

Understood.

I'm not going to say that Halo is the pinnacle of FPS gunplay, but it does hip fire in mid range well firstly because the player's field of view isn't obstructed with ADS, and secondly because they have to move to dodge bullets. ADS in Destiny is well designed and still emphasizes movement, so I'd disagree about removing it from the game (and if we want to talk about being realistic, this wouldn't happen anyway).

It's really just the hip fire that could use some work. If they're closer to the inner ring of the radar, players should feel like they have the capacity to hip fire and succeed in an encounter. Destiny's kill times aren't as quick as other shooters like CoD, so when you ADS on one player and another player comes up on your right, most of the time you aren't going to be able to kill them both if you slow yourself down with ADS. Accurate hip fire would make that option more viable because you're able to dodge their bullets at full speed and hit them accurately, which in turns makes encounters more skill-dependent and less based on whoever sees the other person first.

Accurate hip fire isn't going to overshadow ADS. You still need sights and scopes outside of that inner ring. It just opens up more options to the player so Destiny doesn't become yet another ADS-for-every-kill shooter.

I see your point. The issue I have is that it's mechanically between CoD and Halo and it stands out due to recoil and ADS at default on a trigger, but at the same time no reticle bloom and pretty darn accurate hip fire.

 

[itsnervedamage]

Second part is a bit iffy. Bungie has always said their philosophy is to make games they find fun. So maybe they find ADS in this way fun.

Fair! It's probably nice to get a chance to just try new things after working on one franchise for so long, with all the associated expectations.

 

[Sorral]

So much arguing over ADS and much less fun stuff to read in the last few pages. Oh well.

It is too late for all of that anyway since we are past the Alpha release and the Beta is coming in under a month along with how a lot of stuff in the game are designed around it.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Well, I don't think my snap aim is good enough to dominate from the sky like that with the movement from jumping and landing. There's already an added layer of difficulty and disorientation from all that movement, tracking moving targets isn't that easy.

I'm of the opinion the PvP should be built to be interesting first, the PvE is already skewed by loot and you could tweak the AI variables to discourage jumping. Make the AI do the dodging more when you jump etc. The elite captains did a pretty good job running under me and shooting me full blast as I landed in Legendary, and those snipers were pretty good at tracking. I think they can force methodical gameplay in the PvE encounters pretty easily.

The nature of the PvE mobs entrances in most exchanges puts them at a far enough distance that, when they path towards you, you can easily jump and pot shot them with a fair amount of ease if hip fire were very accurate. Short of giving those mobs the ability to do the same to you, it's a big advantage to the player who already has the advantage of being able to read the spawn points and pathing of enemies.

If this were a normal FPS, I'd agree that PvP should be paramount in terms of developing interesting gun game. However, the MMO elements in Destiny require that PvE should be paramount as it's not a situation where the player is wading through waves of set pieces but instead getting entire encounters, complete with phases and positioning. The very idea behind the game is one that focuses on Co-op PvE encounters. With that as a goal, PvP must be secondary or else the bulk of the game would be terrible and likely fail.

I'm wondering how many people who really dug the alpha have played MMOs previously? This may come off as a negative post and I apologize for that but there were some things that just rubbed me a bit wrong.

I found the random quests from the beacons to be of the more boring variety of filler quests put in to MMOs (fetch this, go look at this, kill enemies that drop x, etc.) and I quickly grew bored of them. I'm hoping there are more dynamic quests in the beta/final game like you happen upon some NPCs being attacked by Hive or whatever and you help them out or you pick up a distress call from an outpost and head over there to help them during an attack or something.

There's nothing wrong with finding those quests generic or unengaging. They're really just there so that the player can have minor goals that encourage leveling outside of Story/Strike/Raid. I'd equate them to Elder Scrolls/Fallout random NPC quests. Just something that you have an option to do that makes you travel the map a bit and have a small purpose.

Also, the Sepiks Prime fight wasn't really exciting. It was a big sphere (with a weak spot to attack for massive damage!) that teleported around and shot lasers at you while adds spawned around you. Again, I'm hoping that there are more dynamic fights in future Strikes (perhaps breaking up the fire team in different areas, multi-stage bosses, environment interaction, etc.)

The alpha was fun and polished no doubt but maybe I'm just jaded to what MMOs have offered in the past and I'm expecting Bungie to surpass what I have seen before.

Sepiks Prime appears to actually have phases. In Brave mode, the waves seem to come at damage thresholds. In Legend, after a certain point, they're timed release regardless of damage thresholds, giving a constant pressure to the Fireteam. Considering it's a low level strike, it's not bad. My guess is later Strikes and Raids will incorporate more of what you're looking for. I'd hope at least, otherwise they'll all feel too similar.

 

[RSB]

Because it would render ADS virtually useless, it would leave those who like to use it in a disadvantage because ADS would be nothing more than an extra button press.

Look at Bioshock, or Wolfenstein, they implement ADS shooting without gimping non-ADS shooting. Why is that bad? ADS still gives you a little bit more zoom (for wepons without scope) and increases your accuracy by reducing the sensitivity. Seems useful to me, and it doesn't gimp the other shooting method. Win-win.

I don't see how removing ADS and making hip fire more accurate leads to more interesing gameplay. It results in less options and specifically facilitates the Halo playstyle. Now, enjoying the Halo playstyle is fine, but this game is not Halo so complaints about the gun game being different than Halo seem short sighted.

I don't want them to remove ADS, I just want them to remove the accuracy penalties tied with not using ADS and moving. That approach would give you more options at any given time, and that opens up the gameplay, making it more interesting.

And I know Destiny isn't Halo, but I think removing the accuracy penalties (again, I don't want them to remove ADS) would fit the game better than the awful random vector approach they are using now, and it would greatly benefit the gameplay, especially given how many movement options you have, and the verticality of the maps.

 

[Flo_Evans]

My main point with that was just because something is standard doesn't mean it's necessarily good.

If that suits the particular type of gameplay the developer is going for, sure, why not?

Well we are getting really circular here. Again from a short alpha how are you able to tell what kind of gameplay bungie is going for and that the removal of movement accuracy penalties would improve thier goals?

I played it as much as possible and hit the cap on all 3 classes and I felt I was just starting to get a feel for the movement and gun mechanics.

 

[Twilight Gap]

Look at Bioshock, or Wolfenstein, they implement ADS shooting without gimping non-ADS shooting. Why is that bad? ADS still gives you a little bit more zoom (for wepons without scope) and increases your accuracy by reducing the sensitivity. Seems useful to me, and it doesn't gimp the other shooting method. Win-win.

I don't want them to remove ADS, I just want them to remove the accuracy penalties tied with not using ADS and moving. That approach would give you more options at any given time, and that opens up the gameplay, making it more interesting.

And I know Destiny isn't Halo, but I think removing the accuracy penalties (again, I don't want them to remove ADS) would fit the game better than the awful random vector approach they are using now, and it would greatly benefit the gameplay, especially given how many movement options you have, and the verticality of the maps.

Agree with this post. Not necessary remove accuracy penalties completely, but tone them down. Range should be the biggest factor. There's really no reason to ADS on an enemy in the inner ring of the radar unless you need to cleanly aim for a headshot. At such a close distance, slowing your movement down is unwise.

 

[The Librarian]

Well we are getting really circular here. Again from a short alpha how are you able to tell what kind of gameplay bungie is going for and that the removal of movement accuracy penalties would improve thier goals?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=117066827&postcount=1015

I played it as much as possible and hit the cap on all 3 classes and I felt I was just starting to get a feel for the movement and gun mechanics.

Well, take into account I've been playing the game longer because Bungie has been very generous to me. It's part of the reason why I love them so much.

 

[Overdoziz]

This game isn't Halo, deal with it.

So many aspects of this game scream Halo. Especially the enemy design and movement capabilities of your character are basically begging you to play this game like Halo. You are even more agile than you are in Halo and yet the game punishes you for utilizing this. I get the entire slow/accurate vs fast/inaccurate thing, but I feel like this game doesn't need that at all. It would be so much more interesting to play if you could be both fast and accurate in my opinion.

 

[Brohan]

Look at Bioshock, or Wolfenstein, they implement ADS shooting without gimping non-ADS shooting. Why is that bad? ADS still gives you a little bit more zoom (for wepons without scope) and increases your accuracy by reducing the sensitivity. Seems useful to me, and it doesn't gimp the other shooting method. Win-win.

Nice try but both of those are single player shooters. It wouldn't work in competetive multiplayer shooters, anyone serious about the pvp would be forced to get used to hipfire and hipfire only because ADS would be of too little use to warrant the extra button press when a split second can be the difference between life and death.

So not a win-win situation at all. The pros of ADS must be more significant and apparent to be useful in a competetive environment.

 

[ReadingRambo]

So much arguing over ADS and much less fun stuff to read in the last few pages. Oh well.

It is too late for all of that anyway since we are past the Alpha release and the Beta is coming in under a month along with how a lot of stuff in the game are designed around it.

Yep thread turned into a real downer. was hoping it would last til beta.

 

[itsnervedamage]

The nature of the PvE mobs entrances in most exchanges puts them at a far enough distance that, when they path towards you, you can easily jump and pot shot them with a fair amount of ease if hip fire were very accurate. Short of giving those mobs the ability to do the same to you, it's a big advantage to the player who already has the advantage of being able to read the spawn points and pathing of enemies.

Why does it matter at a far distance? How is jump shotting more of a problem at distance vs. peeking from behind cover pot shots? Aside from the fact that I can ADS in the air anyway, and did if I had a pretty clear shot.

I would be more concerned that in close encounters high maneuverability with very good aim gives too much of an advantage, like against the cloaking melee guys. Except in close range my strategy with those guys was jumping and shotty or fusion rifle, since those guns didn't have bloom.

I don't see how PvE is broken by weapons with bloom having less bloom from the hip or from the air. I see clearly that hip fire was pretty ineffective in PvP though.

Discussing the merits of certain mechanics is a real downer?

Broken home, why is everyone arguing!?!

 

[The Librarian]

Yep thread turned into a real downer. was hoping it would last til beta.

Discussing the merits of certain mechanics is a real downer?

 

[Jest Chillin]

I don't want them to remove ADS, I just want them to remove the accuracy penalties tied with not using ADS and moving. That approach would give you more options at any given time, and that opens up the gameplay, making it more interesting.

And I know Destiny isn't Halo, but I think removing the accuracy penalties (again, I don't want them to remove ADS) would fit the game better than the awful random vector approach they are using now, and it would greatly benefit the gameplay, especially given how many movement options you have, and the verticality of the maps.

I don't think it opens up the gameplay so much as just changes it from a design that focuses on positioning to one that focuses on movement. The increased (when compared to Halo) movement of Destiny as it is now lends itself to quick and dynamic positioning changes (the verticality also lends to this). Increasing hip fire accuracy with the improved movement would make positioning less important and less tactical. Instead of using movement to get to an advantageous position, the movement itself is advantageous. It makes the game (in a really loose example) more old school Quake and less CS, if you get what I mean.

That's not necessarily bad, particularly in PvP but in PvE it seems like it would trivialize the encounters, especially given Fireteams.

 

[ReadingRambo]

Discussing the merits of certain mechanics is a real downer?

For pages and pages and multiple threads. ADS isn't going anywhere. Some people like it, some don't, but they aren't taking it out. Start a thread about that mechanic if it bugs you so much.

 

[Gaz_RB]

Discussing the merits of certain mechanics is a real downer?

Yeah let's go back to posting pretty pictures and crying about how much we miss the alpha actually

For pages and pages and multiple threads. ADS isn't going anywhere. Some people like it, some don't, but they aren't taking it out. Start a thread about that mechanic if it bugs you so much.

Unfortunately we don't have too much else to talk about I appreciate the more in-depth discussion, as long as it stays civil.

 

[Vire]

Discussing the merits of certain mechanics is a real downer?

Yeah, complaining about ADS is kind of a downer.

It's about the hundredth time I've seen whining about the issue. Go play Halo if you want that, it's not the same game, don't expect it to be.

 

[The Librarian]

For pages and pages and multiple threads. ADS isn't going anywhere. Some people like it, some don't, but they aren't taking it out. Start a thread about that mechanic if it bugs you so much.

Yeah, complaining about ADS is kind of a downer.

It's about the hundredth time I've seen whining about the issue. Go play Halo if you want that, it's not the same game, don't expect it to be.

You guys do realize that I listed "remove ADS" as one of several points of potential improvements and the discussion spiraled out from there? It's not like I, out of nowhere, said "ADS needs to be removed."

 

[MADGAME]

Well I'll put my .02 in about ADS. I'm glad they removed some accuracy hip-firing because it would be otherwise competitively unfair in MP, would it not? If accuracy is even between ADS and hip-firing and two players see each other on the map within a certain distance, the non-ADS user will be able to get off several shots before the the ADS user's sights are up. This would nullify the usefulness of ADS, and would force other players to not use it to be competitive.

Trading accuracy for time seems fair if balanced correctly.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Why does it matter at a far distance? How is jump shotting more of a problem at distance vs. peeking from behind cover pot shots? Aside from the fact that I can ADS in the air anyway, and did if I had a pretty clear shot.

Level design. The ability of the player to gain a non-static vertical advantage over AI that isn't designed to fire at target at that distance yet makes the exchange imbalanced. Peeking from cover, due to level design, would mean the player either has to be more exposed by being closer to the enemy spawn and more likely to be flanked by another spawn location or having to wait until the enemy reaches it's scripted aggression point. And Jump + ADS doesn't offer nearly the same offensive output as Jump + Accurate Hip Fire. The nature of ADS means you have a lowered ability to hit multiple targets during that time than you would with Hip Fire.

I would be more concerned that in close encounters high maneuverability with very good aim gives too much of an advantage, like against the cloaking melee guys. Except in close range my strategy with those guys was jumping and shotty or fusion rifle, since those guns didn't have bloom.

I don't see how PvE is broken by weapons with bloom having less bloom from the hip or from the air. I see clearly that hip fire was pretty ineffective in PvP though.

Close encounters can use hip fire effectively as is due to the nature of the bullet spread. The closer the target, the less room for the bullets to spread. In those cases, your movement serves almost purely as damage avoidance as it's harder to track a close moving target while you're moving in two directions (vertically and horizontally) than it is to track a far moving target. You may find success jumping and shooting at close range but it takes more effort or a weapon designed for Close Quarters to have great success at it.

 

[Twilight Gap]

The ADS discussion is a healthy and necessary discussion. The problem is that everybody is on a different page and we're going in circles here.

The posters who referenced Halo like Dax and Overdoziz mention that improving accuracy from the hip would compliment the movement options we have. Unless I'm misunderstanding them, neither of them, nor anybody else, is saying that Destiny should be exactly like Halo. In Destiny, the mobility we're afforded is nullified by the fact that we can't hit shit until we use ADS. Using ADS in the air is still using ADS. The hip fire is better than most shooters, but it's still not accurate enough when moving. We can argue the difference between toning down the innacuracy or removing it entirely, but the whole argument is primarily directed towards the hip fire and mobility.

Again, there's nothing wrong with suggesting this improvement among the many others that were posted in the past pages, but when we start to muddy intentions and clash fanbases the thread is going to turn bitter really fast.

 

[krioto]

damn - I was going to skip the beta, but I'm having withdrawals and just pre-ordered for the code.

 

[RealityPales]

Peter Dinklage is atrocious as Ghost.

 

[The Librarian]

The ADS discussion is a healthy and necessary discussion. The problem is that everybody is on a different page and we're going in circles here.

The posters who referenced Halo like Dax and Overdoziz mention that improving accuracy from the hip would compliment the movement options we have. Unless I'm misunderstanding them, neither of them, nor anybody else, is saying that Destiny should be exactly like Halo. In Destiny, the mobility we're afforded is nullified by the fact that we can't hit shit until we use ADS. Using ADS in the air is still using ADS. The hip fire is better than most shooters, but it's still not accurate enough when moving. We can argue the difference between toning down the innacuracy or removing it entirely, but the whole argument is primarily directed towards the hip fire and mobility.

Again, there's nothing wrong with suggesting this improvement among the many others that were posted in the past pages, but when we start to muddy intentions and clash fanbases the thread is going to turn bitter really fast.

Even though I advocate removing ADS, part of me wants it to stay in because I don't want Destiny to be too similar to Halo...but at the same time I think I'll enjoy accurate hip-fire more.

 

[ElRenoRaven]

damn - I was going to skip the beta, but I'm having withdrawals and just pre-ordered for the code.

That withdraw sucks don't it? The only thing helping me through it right now is that I picked up a Vita and some games in the PSN sale today.

 

[Vire]

Peter Dinklage is atrocious as Ghost.

Polygon seems to agree with you.

 

[Jackbooted]

Discussing the merits of ADS vs. non-ADS is a valid topic as it has significant implications as to how the game plays. Saying it's a "downer" to talk about is trying to limit the conversation just because it isn't all rainbows and unicorns about the Destiny alpha. I've enjoyed reading the various points of view and arguments to support them. Personally, I can live with either system but the influence of Halo on this game really lends itself to having accurate fire without the need to ADS.