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[OttomanScribe]

Assimilation is really when you have two different groups at one point and after a period of time, the two groups have become indistinguishable. This can be a natural process or it can be engineered.

The difference with integration is the two groups have not merged, but they are still functional, cooperating and contributing together to the welfare of the greater state. Obviously, with a country with immigration, the natives can dictate beforehand how the newcomers will be integrated. It doesn't always work exactly according to plan, but it can work. Some immigrant groups adapt easier than other groups.

Yeah.. see that is why your examples stand out as utterly ridiculous. That isn't how it works, and cultural interchange (which is really what we are talking about) isn't something that can be engineered. Cultural interchange is different to 'assimilation' because what people usually actually mean when they talk about assimilation is the removal of the cultural identity of a particular minority in favour of that of the majority, with a few things (favourable dishes, quaint social artefacts, maybe some art) remaining.

Well it depends.

If you insist on showing up with traditional clothing at job interviews, you may very well be shooting yourself in the foot by sending the wrong message. It's not the attire that is wrong in itself, but it wasn't suited for the situation. No job, no productivity.

Again, an example of the minority as corroded through the necessity of abandoning cultural norms for no practical reason.

Obviously, some jobs require you to wear specific clothes so even if you got the job, refusing to switch clothes when the job requires it will get you fired.

Yet that isn't why people get fired for wearing traditional clothes, this isn't generally about people refusing to wear a hard hat.

If you understand "majority norms", all of this shouldn't be an issue.

Well yes, it remains an issue.

Well, refugees are let in primarily on humanitarian grounds, regardless of skills and future prospects. I can totally imagine someone who just barely escaped his country, not having really thought through where and how he was going to make it.

The other class is different. These people immigrated voluntarily, as part of a lifeplan and more likely, their case has to be processed by a bureaucracy. Immigration countries can pick and choose who they want and who might have the best chances. There are many loopholes, but if you can get in, there is an implicit understanding you will be a law-abiding, productive member of society. So obviously, if you failed to go to language class or have been unwilling to do some (type of) work, then obviously, you have not fulfilled your end of the bargain.

You aren't talking about law or production. At all.

No I do. We just disagree on whether they have a voice or not.

Nope, you really don't.

Ha ha, now you're being cute.

It all comes back to the same fucking point. You spend a lot of time discussing the details of proper clothing, but yes, it's a degree of conformity. Not all the time, not everywhere but doing what is needed to get a job, possibly a career, and be a productive member of society. Of course, anyone can get a degree, but that doesn't mean everyone does or even tries.

When you go to language school, you are conforming. When you get a degree, you are confirming. You are sacrificing time and a bit of your (minority) individuality talking and working with other people, doing what society expects of you. But you are also acquiring valuable skills, skills that can be used in the market place locally and possibly abroad, skills that will earn you money to support your family.

Again, we are talking about different things here. You are using the language of the market to hide what appears to be cultural chauvinism. 'Assimilation' has little to do with productivity or skills or degrees.

No actually, we're only agreeing on the failure to adapt, I don't see costs the same way you do. There's no sacrifice to the Roman emperor, you can still be Muslim. Nothing forbids you from using your first language. People can disagree with you, but no one is forcing you to change your mind on (more cultural) issues. Obviously, contact with other people might influence you and people can change their mind but avoiding contact with the rest of the population for fear of contamination is silly and quite frankly, a bit insulting. And it still begs the question; why move there in the first place?

You talk a lot about the market and productivity but you seem not to accept the fact that the movement of people is as inevitable as the movement of wealth. If wealth moves across borders then so should people. Your problem is that you want both, you want trade and productivity and wealth, but you hold on to ridiculous ideas of 'national values' and the coherency of the nation state and assimilation.

People aren't avoiding the rest of the population for fear of contamination, Muslims don't have some weird agoraphobia, if we are ever insular it is because there are incentives to keep to ourselves. We don't have to sacrifice to Caesar, but we have to endorse ridiculous nationalisms.

Well, the West is not Yemen. If one fails to support himself, the only option is not just moving back to your parents' place or beg in the street. There's a social safety net that helps out people with monetary benefits. Like with any group, this can create a dependency problem in the long-term.

Do you have any persuasive proof that this is the case on any wild scale and it is being driven specifically by a failure on the part of minorities to 'assimilate'? The reason I say this is a waste of time is because in Australia, Muslim minorities are generally over educated and over qualified, but underemployed, if you keep anything of your cultural identity, be it name, outward displays of religion.... skin colour, then you are inherently at a disadvantage.

The issue with you is that you view this disadvantage as not only acceptable, but you then blame the disadvantage on the minorities failure to adapt. This isn't just ridiculous, it fails to understand that ghettoisation IS adaptation!

People stick to their own neighbourhoods because of that discrimination, because learning the language won't stop it, because anything short of skin bleaching won't stop it, so people adapt by staying in places where that isn't an issue, by dealing with people who won't discriminate and trying to avoid that kind of structural discrimination.

 

[dripdripsplash]

Just to get your point Instigator.

"Work and abide the law and I won't give a damn to what else you do." Right ?

But also: "Abandon some of your culture (clothing, tradition etc) so you have a better chance of getting a job." Right?

 

[F#A#Oo]

Has anyone in here or does anyone know anyone that has studied at Dar al-Mustafa in Tarim Yemen?

I was thinking of stepping up my studies...seems like a very interesting place where one can dedicate their time good and proper.

 

[Jeels]

Hey Muslim GAF,

So question about whether something actually has foundation in islam or not. My mom has gotten very obsessed with "prayed on water" lately. Essentially, she says a dua and then blows on water. Then she makes all of us drink the water.

But now it's gotten more expanded, she's handing me water and telling me that after I clean my room to sort of throw/spray this water around my room's walls.

So my question is, does this have any basis in Islam? I've never heard of this at masjid and some quick internet searches doesn't show any relevant results. Thanks!

 

[Ashes]

Depends. If she's blessing it like one would from a remnant of the prophet, it is effectively haram and similar to the act of a charlatan. This is because I doubt any of the prophet's relics still survive today.

If she's blessing it as if she has some power, it's probably worse and closer to shirk.

If it is ruqyah, then I guess that's OK.* People do it with zam zam water.

To me it's just water. Rely on it as a last resort, what harm is there? But for anything remotely health wise, seek medical advice, first and foremost.

* this is probably what is happening here.

 

[Jeels]

Depends. If she's blessing it like one would from a remnant of the prophet, it is effectively haram and similar to the act of a charlatan. This is because I doubt any of the prophet's relics still survive today.

If she's blessing it as if she has some power, it's probably worse and closer to shirk.

If it is ruqyah, then I guess that's OK.* People do it with zam zam water.

To me it's just water. Rely on it as a last resort, what harm is there? But for anything remotely health wise, seek medical advice, first and foremost.

* this is probably what is happening here.

Nobody is sick in our household, but I looked it up and it does look like a form of Ruqyah.

 

[F#A#Oo]

Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh muslim GAF!

Just come back from Hajj a few days ago...

What an amazing few weeks I spent...I pray that any of you who haven't made the journey shall insha'Allah be able to make the journey one day.

I got some major blues now being back home...pretty rough transition back to normality...

I'm glad I did Hajj before Umrah...I can now truly appreciate Umrah now when ever I decide to go back and use it as a reminder...and Hajj is now firmly that once in a life time experience...

I'm also glad that I didn't rely too much on books and lectures from various sources to inform myself about Hajj...some of the Hajj book guides are over the top and really make Hajj a daunting experience...with their remember and recite 100 million dua's now or you're not doing it right!

The best material for Hajj was given to me by the kingdom...it explains how to perform Umrah and Hajj in a very simple way with none of the over the top waffle.

Small rant;

My Indian and Bengali brothers and sisters...were by faaaar the worst Hajji's and Hajja's I came into contact with subhana'Allah...sorry but I won't go into specifics but there is a clear lack of knowledge on the part of these 2 nations muslims. I don't know how or why but there is something deeply wrong with these 2 peoples and the way they have been told to behave and perform Hajj/Umrah and visit and enjoy Saudi...

My Bengali friends say they get mistreated in Saudi...I'm not surprised after seeing what I saw...

My only other gripe is Indonesians and their 100 strong groups/trains in tawaaf and their insistence on group recitation of supplications, dhikr or Qur'an...when I'm trying to concentrate on my own ibaadah... :/

 

[crazy monkey]

Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh muslim GAF!

Just come back from Hajj a few days ago...

What an amazing few weeks I spent...I pray that any of you who haven't made the journey shall insha'Allah be able to make the journey one day.

I got some major blues now being back home...pretty rough transition back to normality...

I'm glad I did Hajj before Umrah...I can now truly appreciate Umrah now when ever I decide to go back and use it as a reminder...and Hajj is now firmly that once in a life time experience...

I'm also glad that I didn't rely too much on books and lectures from various sources to inform myself about Hajj...some of the Hajj book guides are over the top and really make Hajj a daunting experience...with their remember and recite 100 million dua's now or you're not doing it right!

The best material for Hajj was given to me by the kingdom...it explains how to perform Umrah and Hajj in a very simple way with none of the over the top waffle.

Small rant;

My Indian and Bengali brothers and sisters...were by faaaar the worst Hajji's and Hajja's I came into contact with subhana'Allah...sorry but I won't go into specifics but there is a clear lack of knowledge on the part of these 2 nations muslims. I don't know how or why but there is something deeply wrong with these 2 peoples and the way they have been told to behave and perform Hajj/Umrah and visit and enjoy Saudi...

My Bengali friends say they get mistreated in Saudi...I'm not surprised after seeing what I saw...

My only other gripe is Indonesians and their 100 strong groups/trains in tawaaf and their insistence on group recitation of supplications, dhikr or Qur'an...when I'm trying to concentrate on my own ibaadah... :/

that is given usually.

 

[noobie]

Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh muslim GAF!

Just come back from Hajj a few days ago...

What an amazing few weeks I spent...I pray that any of you who haven't made the journey shall insha'Allah be able to make the journey one day.

I got some major blues now being back home...pretty rough transition back to normality...

I'm glad I did Hajj before Umrah...I can now truly appreciate Umrah now when ever I decide to go back and use it as a reminder...and Hajj is now firmly that once in a life time experience...

I'm also glad that I didn't rely too much on books and lectures from various sources to inform myself about Hajj...some of the Hajj book guides are over the top and really make Hajj a daunting experience...with their remember and recite 100 million dua's now or you're not doing it right!

The best material for Hajj was given to me by the kingdom...it explains how to perform Umrah and Hajj in a very simple way with none of the over the top waffle.

Small rant;

My Indian and Bengali brothers and sisters...were by faaaar the worst Hajji's and Hajja's I came into contact with subhana'Allah...sorry but I won't go into specifics but there is a clear lack of knowledge on the part of these 2 nations muslims. I don't know how or why but there is something deeply wrong with these 2 peoples and the way they have been told to behave and perform Hajj/Umrah and visit and enjoy Saudi...

My Bengali friends say they get mistreated in Saudi...I'm not surprised after seeing what I saw...

My only other gripe is Indonesians and their 100 strong groups/trains in tawaaf and their insistence on group recitation of supplications, dhikr or Qur'an...when I'm trying to concentrate on my own ibaadah... :/

Congratulations and i agree with you.. But i believe that we also need to tell others who go in future on Hajj on the most important aspect of Hajj of

• how to deal with other fellow Muslims on this sacred trip.
• How to make sure of cleaniness on this once in a life time trip
• how to give preference to others over yourself.
• and how to undermine your own ego and Me-ness

 

[noobie]

Hey Muslim GAF,

So question about whether something actually has foundation in islam or not. My mom has gotten very obsessed with "prayed on water" lately. Essentially, she says a dua and then blows on water. Then she makes all of us drink the water.

But now it's gotten more expanded, she's handing me water and telling me that after I clean my room to sort of throw/spray this water around my room's walls.

So my question is, does this have any basis in Islam? I've never heard of this at masjid and some quick internet searches doesn't show any relevant results. Thanks!

Islam has once very simple rule which explains everything which is taking the middle road. excess of anything even prayer and fasting is not advised in islam.

 

[Tizoc]

My older brother will be returning from Oumra, is there a duaa to congratulate them on completing it or the like?

 

[thequickandthedead]

My older brother will be returning from Oumra, is there a duaa to congratulate them on completing it or the like?

As far as I know, there isn't. I'm not entirely sure though.

 

[Go319]

edit.

 

[archnemesis]

I'm not religious, but I would advice you to just let him be. You can continue to work together without agreeing on spiritual matters. Religion should be a personal matter and unless you're working in a Muslim-dominated area it won't be the last time he encounters people with other beliefs.

 

[Ashes]

Seems like he made a social faux pax. On the other hand, I fail to understand why he would presume you were Muslim.

You could try to have a clear the air talk. Something like: Are we okay?
That sort of thing. But given time, it may repair it self too.

 

[crazy monkey]

So i've come across a problem at work.

A co-worker of mine is a very proud muslim, and associates almost exclusively with the other muslim workers, we chat briefly in passing every so often but no real deep conversations.

Anyway, one afternoon I decided to have my break in a meeting room where several staff were working and socialising, this man happened to be in the room as well.

As he works three jobs, somebody asked him what his end goal was, as in what are you saving for etc., out of nowhere he says something along the lines of "i am here to win the war against satan! This is my life's mission!"

The room went into an uneasy "wtf" moment, as it would in a workplace...he then turns and looks directly at me and says "this is your mission in life too, isn't it?"

We have never really discussed religion before, and i certainly have never at work, so he is taking a stab in the dark and assuming i will agree with him.

I say "i dont want to answer that", he asks three more times, asking me if "i am a warrior of god" etc.,

The room was very tense and could not have been more awkward, at which point i got fed up and said "i am not in a battle with satan because i dont believe he exists"

As it left my mouth i knew I should have just left the room and not answered...so he looks at me like i am a piece of gum under his shoe, turns his chair around so his back is to me and just sits there like that.

A few work colleagues gave me the look of "wtf is his problem" at me when he did that, and I got up and left the room...

Ever since then he has been frosty towards me and not even saying hello anymore...

do i leave it or confront him?

Advice please....

THE GUY IS CRAZY.

 

[Go319]

thanks for the advice...i've been trying with obvious good-mornings etc., the ice may be defrosting..

still very strange.

yeah he is one of only two muslims (that i know of) on my floor so why he cornered me i cannot understand...

 

[crazy monkey]

thanks for the advice...i've been trying with obvious good-mornings etc., the ice may be defrosting..

still very strange.

yeah he is one of only two muslims (that i know of) on my floor so why he cornered me i cannot understand...

just ignore him. 3 jobs take their toll.

 

[F#A#Oo]

I'm not religious, but I would advice you to just let him be. You can continue to work together without agreeing on spiritual matters. Religion should be a personal matter and unless you're working in a Muslim-dominated area it won't be the last time he encounters people with other beliefs.

Religion can be personal but it's also not personal at all. Today people like to say religion is a personal matter "It's in our constitution" "We have freedom of religion, just like freedom of speech and the freedom of choice". These things have only cropped up in order to safeguard peoples ability to practice their religion on a personal level...it doesn't mean that religion is a personal matter.

Islam is certainly not interested in "yourself". If you are a Muslim, Islam is not just your personal business. Islam by definition needs to be shared. Islam by definition seeks to help others too. It seeks to...and if I'm a believer then I cannot say my Islam is limited to myself. It doesn't affect anyone else. I don't have to do anything else other than worry about myself. So long as I'm praying, so long as I do Hajj, so long as I give charity/zakat; I am set! I don't have to worry about anybody else.

That is not something that Islam lets us do by definition. It is at the core of it concerned with others. One of the most fundamental surah's of the Qur'an; suratul Asr says.

1.By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
2.Verily Man is in loss,
3.Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.

If Islam is just just about yourself it would tell us to keep to ourselves and to keep Islam a private matter.

 

[OttomanScribe]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8GK6XWkbzs&feature=youtu.be


hahaha... this is Malek Fahd school. This dude is so freaked out by it.

 

[OttomanScribe]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=105852008&postcount=243

That is not science, it's philosophy and thus there are many people who are equally correct in saying Foucault is full of shit. Not that this matters for our conversation, Quran doesn't specifically discriminate against gays, but against people who practice sodomy. Which is also a major intrusion into personal freedoms and civil liberties and why it should be prevented from becoming law at all costs.

Well its more 'social theory' than anything. I'm glad you've stepped back from your position that 'Islam discriminates against gays [sic]'.

No thanks, I will never post in that thread.

I've posted you here.

And of course your interpretation is the correct one, right? Quran is a pretty violent book that most modern Muslims ignore or rationalize through creative interpretation, in order to be compatible with basic human rights.

I'd say it is the main one, with the 'right one' also being my position. However what matters for you is the former point. If we aren't discussing the main position, then what is the point?

Muslim rule is shit, and that's only possible in countries with majority Muslim populations.

And your point decays further and further into just swearing and making vague claims.

Most Greeks were deported, not killed, and such a thing after the war is a whole lot better than what the Islamists would have done, which would be to behead all of them.

Well the term 'Islamist' doesn't really make sense here... but regardless, you know that they lived under Ottoman rule for several hundred years, like many other minorities... without all of them being beheaded... so I'm not sure how this argument flies.

Ah so 'most' were not killed. Well that's something then. *drips with sarcasm*

Order came from the Ottoman Ruler, it's not just a name change for the country.

Not really, there wasn't a single order but a variety of policies, all overseen by the aforementioned Committee. Interesting how your idea of accountability rises and falls with your ideological affiliation.

However, I feel like the quoted is something of a smokescreen. I don't want to offend any homosexuals by way of simplification or use of a loaded word but I feel it's important to ask to cut through the vagueries of this post: what does the Quaran/Sha'riah law say about the treatment of sodomites?

The Qur'an does not discuss directly the act of sodomy (by which I think you mean anal penetration rather than the broader sense with which it was previously understood) is that it is prohibited regardless of who takes part. If it occurs outside of marriage, there are a variety of opinions as to whether same sex relations are to be distinguished from other forms of adultery or fornication.

In practice, as the requirement for a conviction is that it be performed in public with four reliable witnesses, it has historically been related to the punishment for sexual assault. Even countries not ruling according to the traditional Sha'riah (Iran for example) usually carry out the death penalty on male rapists.

 

[noobie]

Although i usually dont try to post in religious thread.. But this man has given an excellent speech on Prophet Moses (AS) or Hazrat Mosa (AS)

Story of Prophet Moses (Mosa) in Quran

and if you want to understand the Quran without any bias then you need to listen to it.
The Quran

 

[Ashes]

Well, that escalated quickly.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Did an interview on 'Islam and Reason' on Radio National (the state funded news radio station) today.

Think it went well alhamduliLlah.. if I like it I'll link it here once it is edited.

 

[F#A#Oo]

One of the Signs of the last hour Prophet Mohammad (Peace be upon him) said that there will come a day when the Arabian peninsula will return to be green with vegetation and rivers as it once was.

Tusk clue to Saudi desert's green past

 

[Joel Was Right]

.

 

[Instigator]

I for one am relieved a muslim country finally has the guts to stop non-Muslims from doing what they've been doing for centuries.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-27970565

Malaysia Allah dispute: Top court rejects challenge
Malaysia's highest court has rejected a challenge to the ban on Christians using the word "Allah" to refer to God, in a highly divisive legal case in the Muslim-majority nation.

The case was brought by the Catholic Church, which sought to overturn a ban first put in place in 2007.

But the Federal Court said an earlier ruling backing the ban was correct.

The case began over the use of "Allah" to refer to the Christian God in the Catholic Church's Malay-language paper.

People of all faiths use the word Allah in Malay to refer to their deities.

Christians argue they have used the word, which entered Malay from Arabic, to refer to their God for centuries and that the ruling violates their rights.

Malaysian authorities say its use by Christians could confuse Muslims and lead some to convert to Christianity.

Malay Muslims make up almost two-thirds of the country's population, but there are large Hindu and Christian communities.

The long-running case has proved very controversial, sparking impassioned debate and leading to occasional attacks on mosques and churches.

The Catholic Church's newspaper, The Herald, appealed against the initial ban and in 2009 a court ruled in its favour, but that judgement that was later overturned by the Court of Appeal.

This ruling was handed down by a seven-member panel, which voted by 4-3 to dismiss the challenge.

Herald editor Father Lawrence Andrew said he was "greatly disappointed" by the judgement which "didn't touch on the fundamental rights of minorities".

Muslim activists outside the court welcomed the decision, however.
S Selvarajah, one of the lawyers for the Church, said the ruling marked the end of legal proceedings. "It's a blanket ban. Non-Muslims cannot use the word," he told AFP news agency.

But reports in Malaysian newspapers suggested the Church could call for a review of the decision.

 

[Zapages]

A friend of mine posted this…

Its an 1803 Map of the USA by the Ottomans.

 

[Ashes]

British Muslim leaders have called for the immediate release of Alan Henning, the UK hostage threatened with death by Islamic State (IS) extremists in Syria.

In a letter in the Independent, they described IS as un-Islamic fanatics and urged them to show mercy on Mr Henning.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-call-on-isis-to-release-hostage-9739047.html

Letter by British Imams and Muslim Leaders appealing for release of Alan Henning

We, the undersigned British Muslim Imams, organisations and individuals, wish to express our horror and revulsion at the senseless murder of David Haines and the threat to the life of our fellow British citizen, Alan Henning.

Mr Henning was a volunteer who travelled to Syria to help innocent civilians.

Acts of humanitarianism are an essential element of religious practice for all Muslims, and of course they are just as significant to other people too. Islamic teachings call for charity and selflessness. Most importantly, acts of beneficence do not, and cannot, exclude non-Muslims.

In Islam, concern for fellow humans and the duty to help everyone is a religious obligation. Anyone undertaking a humanitarian act is paving his or her way to receive help from heaven, should be commended and held in the highest esteem.

In contrast, the senseless kidnapping, murder and now the despicable threats to Mr Henning at the hands of so-called ‘Muslims’ cannot be justified anywhere in the Quran and the Sunnah (Prophetic traditions).

The un-Islamic fanatics are not acting as Muslims, but as the Prime Minister has said, they are acting as monsters. They are perpetrating the worst crimes against humanity. This is not Jihad - it is a war against all humanity.

The Holy Quran says that:

"Whosoever kills a human being... it is as if killing the entire human race; and whosoever saves a life, saves the entire human race."

We plead with those holding Alan Henning to see the errors of their ways. To embrace the word of the Quran and accept that what they are now doing constitutes the worst condemnable sin.

We appeal to them to release Mr Henning immediately. The Quran states that “repentance is not accepted from those who continue to do evil deeds”.

In the name of the Almighty All Merciful God, we beseech Mr Henning's kidnappers with the words of our Prophet Muhammad - "Show mercy to those on earth, the One in the Heavens will have mercy on you.

British Muslim communities have done a great deal to speak out over the evils of terrorism over many years. We will continue to do everything within our power to prevent any other young man or woman getting caught up in this poisonous ideology.

List of signatories:

Sheikh Arif Abdulhussain, Director, Al-Mahdi Institute, Birmingham, @AMIOutreach

Imam Khalid Hussain Abdullah, Lecturer and Imam, KQZ Institute & Masjid Tajdar Madina, Nottingham & Leicester;

Mohammed Afzal, Councillor, Birmingham

Mufti Fazal Ahmad, Chief imam, Central Mosque, Derby

Dr Husna Ahmad OBE, CEO, Global One, London

Akeela Ahmed, London

Sughra Ahmed, President, Islamic Society of Britain

Usma Ahmed, Councillor, Birmingham

Muddassar Ahmed, Patron, Faiths Forum for London

Shakil Ahmed, Principal, Ayesha Community School, London, @_ACE_School

Dr Khurshid Ahmed CBE, CEO, Bahu Trust, Birmingham

Maqsood Ahmed OBE, Director of Community Welfare& Development, Muslim Hands, @maqsoodajmedobe

Rushanara Ali, MP for Tower Hamlets

Hafiz Javed Akhtar, Imam, Central Mosque, Manchester

Salah Yusuf Al-Ansari, Imam, Palmers Green Mosque, London

Sheikh Mohammed Al-Hilli, Imam, Noor Trust, London

Abubakar Ali, Chairman, Somali Bravanese Welfare Association, London

Asif Ali, Imam / Head Teacher, Karimia Institute, Nottingham

Azhar Ali, County Councillor and Cabinet Member for Health & Wellbeing, Lancashire County Council, @azhar4pendle

Nawaz Ali, Councillor, Birmingham

Mahmoud Ali, General Secretary, Hosseinieh Foundation, Bristol, @HosseiniehSahibzada

Mufti Akhtar Ali, Chief Imam, Sheffield

Haider Alkhateeb, Manager, Centre for Islamic Shia Studies (CISS), London, @halkhateeb25

Kerrar Al-Khayat, Trustee and Vice Chairman, My Voice Project, London, @Kerrar_

Sayed Yousif Al-Khoei, Director, Public Affairs, Al-Khoei Foundation, London

Haytham Ali Alsahlani, Imam, London

Abu Sayeed Ameer, Dawatul Islam uk & Eire, Dawatul Islam uk & Eire London

Mohammed Ali Amla, Vice Chair of Preston Faith Forum, Founder of Global Village, Founder of Christian Muslim Encounters, @mohammedaliamla

Anjum Anwar MBE, Dialogue Development Officer, Blackburn Cathedral, @AuntyG

Dr Qari Muhammad Asim, Senior Imam, Makkah Mosque, Leeds, @QariAsim

Maulana Dr Ather HussainAzhari, Imam, Birmingham

Mufti Mohammad Yousuf Azhari, Imam, Leicestershire

Mohammed Azim, Councillor, Birmingham

Maulana QamaruzzamanAzmi, Secretary General, World Islamic Mission, Manchester

Kalsoom Bashir, Co-Director, Inspire

Yahya Birt, Executive Committee, Public Policy and Community Debate, City Circle, London, @ybirt

Dr Mamadou Bocoum, Director, Interfaith Through The Arts (ITTA), London

Maulana Syed Fida Bokhari, Imam, Manchester

Imam Tayeb Mustapha Cham, Chairman, Tayba Foundation

Makhdoom Ahmad Chishti, Chairperson, Social Unity Foundation of Innovation Trust, Birmingham

Maulana Hafeezurrahman Chishti, Imam, Leicester

Irfan Chishti MBE, Imam, Light of Islam Academy, Rochdale @ichishtiM

Aslam Choudry, Elected Councillor for Dudden Hill Ward, Brent Council, London

Gulamraza Datoo, Vice President, KSIMC of Birmingham, Birmingham

Sheikh Fazle Abbas Datoo, Imam /Resident Alim, Wessex Shia Ithna Asheri Jamaat, Portsmouth

Shaykh Muhammad Amin Evans, Imam

Mustafa Field, Director, Faiths Forum for London, @mustafafield

Rabiha Hannan, New Horizons in British Islam

Hifsa Haroon-Iqbal MBE DL, Chair, Chase Against Crimes of Hate, Stafford, @hhi1

Dr Mohamed Adam Hassan, Chairman, Somali Youth Forum, London, @Hafiz

Moulana Shamsul Hoque, Chairman, Council of Mosques - Tower Hamlets, London

Mahmood Hussain, Councillor and Former Lord Mayor of Birmingham

Dilwar Hussain, New Horizons in British Islam, @DilwarH

Rizwan Hussain, Chief Executive, Jawaab, London, @JawaabUK

AKIpaye, Director, Dairatul-Amni, London

Zafar Iqbal, Councillor, Birmingham

Mohammed Iqbal, Councillor, Leader of the Labour Group, Pendle Borough Council, Lancashire

Ali Jaffri, Trustee, Idara-e-Jaaferiya, Mosque and Community Centre, London, @mralijaffri

‎Dr Husein Jiwa, President, The Council of European Jamaats, London, @CoEJ

Belgacem Kahlalech, Director, WAMY UK, London

Mohammedraza Kanji, Secretary, Wessex Jamaaat, Al Mahdi Centre, Fareham

Dr Majid Katme, Ex-President, Islamic Medical Association/UK, London

Nagina Kauser, Councillor, Birmingham

Zahra Kazmi, Co-Founder, Save Muslim Heritage, High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire

Changese Khan, Councillor, London

Mariam Khan, Councillor, Birmingham

Hamzah Khan, Manager, Al-Mustafa Trust, Bradford, @almustafacentre

Mohammed Khan, Chair, Council of Bristol Mosque, Bristol

Sara Khan, Co-Director, Inspire

Sadiq Khan, Shadow Justice Sectretary

M Afzal Khan CBE, MEP, Manchester, @akhanmep

Imam Tahir Mahmood Kiani, Lecturer, Birmingham, @tmkiani

Farzana Kosar, General Secretary, Centre for Spirituality & Cultural Advancement, Feltham, @csca_uk

Riyaz Laher, Chair, FMO Leicestershire, Leicester, @FMO_Leics

Maualana Safraz Madni, Imam and Chairman, Mosques & Imams National Advisory Board, Birmingham

Majid Mahmood, Councillor, Birmingham

Khalid Mahmood

Shabana Mahmood, MP, Birmingham

Mufti Helal Mahmood, Coordinator, Oldham Mosques Council, Oldham

Imran Malik, General Secretary, Blackheath Jamia Mosque Trust, Blackheath

Shaz Manir, CEO, Amirah foundation, Birmingham, @directoramirah

Salim Mbaruk, Chair, Bilal Education, London

Dr Asghar Moledina, President, The World Federation of KSIMC, London, @wfksimc

Ghulam Moyhuddin, Head Imam, Ashton Central Mosque, Ashton

Fiyaz Mughal, Director, Faith Matters and the TELL MAMA anti-Muslim Monitoring Project, London

Zubaiar Muhammadi, Afghan Isamic Culture Centre

Gul Muhammed, Imam and Senior lecturer, Jamia al Karam, Retford

Maulana Farooq Mulla, Imam, Leicester

Aamer Naeem, Editor in Chief, British Muslim TV, Yorkshire

Suleman Nagdi MBE, Public Relations Officer, Federation of Muslim Organisations, @fmo_leics

Maulana Syed AbbasNaqvi, Imam

Maulana Syed Najm ul HasanNaqvi, Imam, Manchester

Ifath Nawaz, FFL Council Member, Faiths Forum for London

Maulana Farogul Qaadri, Imam, Glasgow

Maulana Farogh Ahmed Qadri, Imam, Glasgow

Qazi Abdul Latif Qadri, Chief Imam, Central Aylesbuy, Aylesbury

Ali Qureshi, Secretary General, Union of Muslim Organisations UK&EIRE

Murad Qureshi, London Assembly Member

Yasmin Qureshi, MP for Bolton South East

Fazal Rahim, Coordinator, Oldham Interfaith Forum, Oldham

Ayub Rashid, Imam and Chaplain, Muslim Community of Essex

Syed Ali Abbas Razawi, Imam and International Speaker, Majlis Ulema-e-Shia, London

Maulana Shahid Raza, founder trustee of the British Muslim Forum, and Senior Imam, Leicester Central Mosque, Leicester

Maha Rida, Social Affairs officer, Al-Kawther, Al-Kawther, London

Ali Raza Rizvi, President, Majlis Ulama-e-Shia, London

Allama Pir Syed Zahid Hussain Shah Rizvi, Jamia Mosque, Birmingham

Maulana Syed Hassan Abbas Rizvi, Imam & Finance Officer, Majlis Ulema-e-Shia, London

Asif Sadiq, President, National Association of Muslim Police, @asifsadiq

Raheed Salam, All Faiths and None, London, @raheedsalam

Mufti Ghulam Sarwar, Senior Imam, Hanfia Mosque and Educational Institute, Huddersfield

Mufti Imran Sarwar, Secretary, Kirklees Imams & Mosques Advisory Board (KIMAB), Kirklees

Dr. Shuja Shafi, Secretary General, Muslim Council of Britain

Mohammed Shafiq, Chief executive, Ramadhan Foundation, @mshafiquk

Cllr Chauhdry Shafique MBE, Chairman, Council for Christian Muslim Relations, High Wycombe, Bucks

Amjad Shah, General Secretary, Idaara Maarif-e-Islam, Birmingham

Shafique Shah, Lord Mayor of Birmingham, Birmingham

Maulana Syed Sultan Shah, Imam, Leicester

Ismael Lea South, Director, The Salam Project, London & Manchester, @thesalamproject

Amir Taki, Director & Executive Producer, Ahlulbayt TV, London, @AmirTaki

Sh Talat, Board of trustee, MCEC, London

Imam Ghulam Rasool Tipton, Principal, Hazrat Sultan Bahu Trust Sandwell & executive member of MINAB, Sandwell, @grashgr

Waseem Zaffar, Councillor, Birmingham

Allama Hafiz Muhammad Sadiq Zia, Jamaia Masjid, Birmingham

Maulana Dr Mohammad Rashid Zia, Imam, London

Maulana Azmat Abbas Zohairi, Imam, Majlis Ulema-e-Shia, Burnley

 

[Chaplain]

So apparently the primary text that is being circulated among ISIS members is something called "The Management of Savagery: The Most Critical Stage Through Which the Umma Will Pass" by Abu Bakr Naji. Here is the text online (PDF) translated into English.

PDF Link

 

[strobogo]

I've been reading various books and articles on Islam lately (although since a lot of them were about OBL/Al Qaeda/War on Terror, the hasn't been much of a positive spin on it) trying to be a little more knowledgeable of the faith and its people. The current book I'm reading is from an Egyptian ex-pat who was raised in the faith for 30 years. Her depiction of the faith from inception to today is NOT at all flattering, to say the least. It seems a bit sensational at times, even to someone not well versed on the topic.


However, she brings up some interesting points I'd like to know more about.


Does Islam have an issue with introspection of the faith and tenants, to the point where the faith is unable to evolve with the times?

Is there an undercurrent of shame and guilt within Muslim communities, used as a way to keep members of the faith in line while projecting internal issues on to other groups (Jews, The West)?

Was Mohammad's history of grief, loss, and rejection (by family, loved ones, his own tribe, and the Jews) really never given much consideration as to why there has been so much anger and violence towards "others"?

 

[Ashes]

I've been reading various books and articles on Islam lately (although since a lot of them were about OBL/Al Qaeda/War on Terror, the hasn't been much of a positive spin on it) trying to be a little more knowledgeable of the faith and its people. The current book I'm reading is from an Egyptian ex-pat who was raised in the faith for 30 years. Her depiction of the faith from inception to today is NOT at all flattering, to say the least. It seems a bit sensational at times, even to someone not well versed on the topic.


However, she brings up some interesting points I'd like to know more about.


Does Islam have an issue with introspection of the faith and tenants, to the point where the faith is unable to evolve with the times?

You don't list the book in question, but regardless, I'll try to think up how best to answer questions raised by this book later today.
I would at present like to point out that Islam isn't a monolithic faith and it hasn't stood still. The dogma is built on the idea of people differing in opinion and interpretation. The various founding schools of the faith emerged as a result of trying to figure what God wants of his people. Of course, these were 1, men 2, interested fundamentally in rule of law and 3, based somewhat on Arab culture/commerce of a very specific period and often time during war and/or empire expansion.
Reformation of any ideology be it dogma or philosophical school of thought needs scholars to lead the way. And there are such scholars in the Islamic world. And unlike other faiths that have 'evolved', on that scholarly level, introspection of the faith and its tenents, is actively encouraged by the text if only to be oppressed by political organisations.
Leila Ahmed's translation of the Quran for example is the first translation by a woman. She argues against the patriarchal version. That's a schism right there. There is no official version of Islam. You can rebuild an entire school of thought, from the bottom up today. The only really important thing is authenticity.

 

[strobogo]

You don't list the book in question, but regardless, I'll try to think up how best to answer questions raised by this book later today.
I would at present like to point out that Islam isn't a monolithic faith and it hasn't stood still. The dogma is built on the idea of people differing in opinion and interpretation. The various founding schools of the faith emerged as a result of trying to figure what God wants of his people. Of course, these were 1, men 2, interested fundamentally in rule of law and 3, based somewhat on Arab culture/commerce of a very specific period and often time during war and/or empire expansion.
Reformation of any ideology be it dogma or philosophical school of thought needs scholars to lead the way. And there are such scholars in the Islamic world. And unlike other faiths that have 'evolved', on that scholarly level, introspection of the faith and its tenents, is actively encouraged by the text if only to be oppressed by political organisations.
Leila Ahmed's translation of the Quran for example is the first translation by a woman. She argues against the patriarchal version. That's a schism right there. There is no official version of Islam. You can rebuild an entire school of thought, from the bottom up today. The only really important thing is authenticity.

Oh sorry. The Devil We Don't Know: The Dark Side of Revolutions in the Middle East by Nonie Darwish.


Now, even to the untrained eye it seems a little sensationalist and alarmist and I think she's mostly talking about extreme forms of the faith, but her depictions paint it as an inherently victimized and violent faith that uses guilt and shame built into it to keep its followers in line. She also spoke of Muslims being allowed to lie as long as it protects the faith, especially with non-Muslims. And other multiple opposing views on the same subject at the same time kind of issues. Some kind of dubious stories/psychoanalyzing of Mohammed as well.


The main thrust of the book is that the Arab Spring won't work just like all the other revolutions in the Middle East, because sharia law is incompatible with the democracy and freedom the revolutions always want. And because of how the faith is set up and taught, no one tries to change that over fear.

One of her main comparisons (that was just an aside, really) was that in the Christian faith, Jesus died for human sins, to save humanity. In Islam, followers die for the glory of Allah. And since it was really a modern spin/update/continuation on the Torah/Bible, God being a huge dick head shouldn't be too big of a surprise. Since God is pretty much the biggest shitheel of the Old Testament.

 

[Ashes]

No wonder you buy into her theories.

#

Anyways, @the rest of the thread:

I saw 3:139 written somewhere today:

'Do not lose
heart,
nor fall into
despair, for you
shall triumph
if you have
faith'

Anyone know whose translation this is?

 

[strobogo]

No wonder you buy into her theories.

#

Anyways, @the rest of the thread:

I saw 3:139 written somewhere today:

'Do not lose
heart,
nor fall into
despair, for you
shall triumph
if you have
faith'

Anyone know whose translation this is?

I'm not sure what that means. The first part, not the verse. What's the implication?

 

[Ashes]

I'm not sure what that means. The first part, not the verse. What's the implication?

Coming into the Islam thread & calling the god in question a shitheel & a shit head is the worst kind of attitude to have if you want a discussion.

See how many people reply to you. You're not the first troll. And you definitely won't be the last.

 

[strobogo]

Coming into the Islam thread & calling the god in question a shitheel & a shit head is the worst kind of attitude to have if you want a discussion.

See how many people reply to you. You're not the first troll. And you definitely won't be the last.

I wasn't trolling. I was calling the god of the Old Testament a shit heel, because he was and most people acknowledge that version of god was angry and vengeful, even Jews and Christians. In fact, I thought her book was so sensational that it lead me to read the Koran/Quran myself because I thought she had to be exaggerating for book sales. I didn't believe what she was saying. That's why I was asking questions.

Most people would agree Old Testament God was not a nice fellow. When a book says that Islam has a lot of fear based stuff, I said it would make sense to me, since Islam is a continuation/fulfillment of Judaism, in which the depiction of God is not pleasant or loving. That's not trolling. I asked those questions with honesty, having little knowledge of Islam outside of a decade of cable news and "It's not much different from Christianity/Judaism". Since I didn't get any answers I just went ahead and read the source material for myself.

 

[Ashes]

How is this flying over your head? Anyways, I was done two posts ago. Continue with your pejoratives in every thread you want to 'honestly' discuss a subject on and see how long you last on Gaf.

 

[strobogo]

Okay. The questions I asked were before I read the Koran/Qur'an for myself. I don't see how saying the god of the Old Testament being an angry and vengeful god, and all around shitheel is a pejorative towards Islam, but whatever.


My actual thoughts on the Qur'an I put in a non-religious thread under spoilers so as to not deeply offend Muslims on the board. Not coming in here and posting them trying to stir shit up, like you seem to think I was doing because I called the god of one of the particular books of the Abrahamic faiths (one that isn't the book of Islam at that) a shit head.

 

[Ashes]

I haven't read that book, but I do know about Darwish. She runs with pretty much the same spiel a lot of these anti-islamic commentators run with.

It's shallow criticism. Typically read off Wahhabi sponsored English translations of the Quran- a politically motivated translation, who want to take Islam back to the 7th century. Look up why this translation is problematic.

The biggest thing that gets me is this idea that Islamic law is somehow immutable.

Second biggest, and most frustrating, thing is how many people don't read past anti-Islamic websites. It seems to be more about arming themselves for debate rather than scholarly inquisition. The same basic fundamentally flawed arguments made over and over again.

Third biggest, is the monolithic way these commentators talk about Islam. Just reading a little bit into Islam, tells you about the sectarian differences, let alone the various schools of thought, let alone the individual imams interpretations, let alone specific fatwas... etc etc etc. And that's just me talking about attitude to laws. There is no one OFFICIAL Islam.

If you're going to read up the material it self, you should know that the Quran's translation in English is not an wholly adequate replacement for the Quran in ARABIC. Anybody who says differently is just wrong. So Translations are known as just that: translations.

Arthur Arberry's The Koran Interpreted is probably the one most half decent western scholars go to. It's not the most popular translation in the Muslim world - at a guess, that honour probably goes to a Saudi updated version of Ali maybe, or the Muhsin Khan one - that would be the free ones distributed by Saudi money. This is also the one that goes back to Tabari and other medievalist (literally of that era) commentaries.

So in a fit of irony, the most problematic execution of the faith, the most regressive, is the one propped up to some degree by the western economy.*

Edit:* I exaggerate for effect. This isn't obviously wholly true.

 

[strobogo]

I haven't read that book, but I do know about Darwish. She runs with pretty much the same spiel a lot of these anti-islamic commentators run with.

It's shallow criticism. Typically read off Wahhabi sponsored English translations of the Quran- a politically motivated translation, who want to take Islam back to the 7th century. Look up why this translation is problematic.

The biggest thing that gets me is this idea that Islamic law is somehow immutable.

Second biggest, and most frustrating, thing is how many people don't read past anti-Islamic websites. It seems to be more about arming themselves for debate rather than scholarly inquisition. The same basic fundamentally flawed arguments made over and over again.

Third biggest, is the monolithic way these commentators talk about Islam. Just reading a little bit into Islam, tells you about the sectarian differences, let alone the various schools of thought, let alone the individual imams interpretations, let alone specific fatwas... etc etc etc. And that's just me talking about attitude to laws. There is no one OFFICIAL Islam.

If you're going to read up the material it self, you should know that the Quran's translation in English is not an wholly adequate replacement for the Quran in ARABIC. Anybody who says differently is just wrong. So Translations are known as just that: translations.

Arthur Arberry's The Koran Interpreted is probably the one most half decent western scholars go to. It's not the most popular translation in the Muslim world - at a guess, that honour probably goes to a Saudi updated version of Ali maybe, or the Muhsin Khan one - that would be the free ones distributed by Saudi money. This is also the one that goes back to Tabari and other medievalist (literally of that era) commentaries.

So in a fit of irony, the most problematic execution of the faith, the most regressive, is the one propped up to some degree by the western economy.*

Edit:* I exaggerate for effect. This isn't obviously wholly true.

Thank you for giving me a legitimate answer without attacking me and telling me I'm wrong and have an agenda like...another poster in another thread. As I said, I read the Koran in response to the claims in the previous book I read. After reading it, I could see where a lot of her claims were coming from. I could also see where the extremist groups like ISIS and Al Qaeda were coming from. I was told the translation was just bad and the book "didn't exist". What I read were some serious core issues, if you were to follow the book word for word. My assumption was that most Muslims, like most Jews and Christians, don't follow the book word for word when it relates to things that are no longer relevant in the modern world. I came away with a significantly more negative view of the religion as a whole than I ever had before. Before, I was pretty ambivalent. Now, I think it is really easy to take the book to an extreme and it is easy to see how governments use the religion to control their nations and keep people poor and uneducated.

I think it would be great if normal, average, moderate Muslims had more of a voice in the Western world to assuage the fears of people whose knowledge of Islam is strictly from cable news. At the same time, I think it is also unfortunate that seemingly every discussion between Muslims and non-Muslims turns into a "that didn't happen/you read it wrong/you read a bad translation/you don't know" kind of conversation without acknowledgement that indeed, there are some very questionable things in the Koran, just as there are in the Bible and Talmud. Considering they are all based around many of the same stories, from a time wildly different to the modern world, it makes sense some parts of all the books don't hold up today.

I kind of feel like Muslims have been conditioned to take every questioning of their faith as an insult or attack. I don't think that's fair to Muslims or the people questioning. Now, sometimes it is most definitely a full attack. Not at all doubting that. But a lot of times, as seen in various threads on on GAF, people who are unknowledgeable ask questions and are talked down to, called trolls, or ignored. I think part of that comes from Judaism and Christianity being constantly scrutinized or made fun of for many decades in the West as a normal and acceptable thing, while that has yet to really apply to Islam. It's a tricky situation all around. I read the Koran and had a pretty negative view of it towards just about everything besides the stressing of charity and the treatment of women which, by modern standards is still arcane, but somehow significantly more progressive than most Islamic countries today and of the time. I'm part Jewish and have a pretty negative view on most Jewish traditions. I went to a Christian school and have a lot of issues with a lot of Christian values and traditions as well. I also recently read the Bhagavad Gita and some of the main books on Taoism and had issues. So my perspective on religion as a whole isn't very positive, but I assure you I did not come into this thread to troll or anger people. I came to the thread originally to be more knowledgeable. I read the entire Koran cover to cover with about 150 pages of notes to be more knowledgeable.

 

[Ashes]

Ha ha ha ha.
Like I said, you are not the first troll, and you won't be the last.

 

[strobogo]

If that's trolling to you then I guess there is no point for me to be in this thread.

 

[Ashes]

If that's trolling to you then I guess there is no point for me to be in this thread.

Make sure to take your soap box with you.

You are either poor at comprehension or just plain didn't read my post. Just read the long post you replied to. Then read your post.
Read the Koran from cover to cover. Lol. Everybody is an expert.

Go to any mosque and tell them their god is based on an asshole. Or a shithead or whatever word you prefer. Then tell them you've read the Koran from cover to cover. Etc.. Etc.. And that you honestly seek dialogue and discussion. Ha ha ha.

 

[Darackutny]

*revives dead thread*

Fun stuff about Abu Huraira the narrator.

 

[Chaplain]

I thought many in this thread would be interested in tonight's live debate that will be streamed over the internet. It starts at 6pm EST. Here are the details.

What is God Really Like: Tawhid or Trinity?

Imam Dr. Shabir Ally and Christian Dr. Nabeel Qureshi (a former Muslim) will debate the question, “What Is God Really Like: Tawhid or Trinity?” April 8, 2015 at Wayne State University in Detroit, Michigan, from 6:00 p.m. – 9:00 p.m. (EDT).

Qureshi is a former Muslim who converted to Christianity through historical reasoning and a spiritual search for God. He and Ally will debate on whether Christianity is correct in its revelation of the Trinity, the triune nature of God, or if Islam is correct in the Tawhid’s proclamation of the oneness of God. There will also be a 30-45 minute Q&A session following the debate.

“I’m honored to debate Dr. Shabir Ally,” Qureshi says. “The last time I saw him was in 2004 when I was still a Muslim. I was watching him debate and was hoping he’d win.”

Stream link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWpqqqZn7Kg

 

[OttomanScribe]

Here is as good a place as any I guess.

I have to disagree on secular liberalism being tied to colonial past ergo secular liberalism is flawed. That is similar to saying Islam is flawed because it was tied to qutbism.

I'm not sure I understand the comparison. Qutb was writing after the coming of Islam, liberalism and the enlightenment more generally was a product of colonialism.

I am sure we can separate these facts. Secular liberalism is only so much of a threat if it forces Islam to change from outside. I see in secular socities that this is not the case. You can be a salafist or a Sufi in such society and Islam is not threatened at all. So my point being, Islam is not under threat. Muslims are free to follow whatever flavor they please. If some are following a "deviant" flavor, Islam is not being rewritten.

Liberalism is fundamentally an 'external' force...and one with force of arms behind it. The individual circumstances of those lucky enough to sit beneath the upper table of Empire matter little in my mind.

An ever changing empire. No? Not a static dead body that you can poke a stick at.

Cards on the table. I live in London. Which is awesome. And amongst the best cities in the world in some ways.

You lucked out. Scored a life in a city built upon colonial wealth as did I.

But, on point, I think secular liberalism along with democracy is the best current idea going.

Secular liberalism and democracy are fundamentally contradictory concepts.




As to the discussion about IS and liberalism, I think they are modernist, if not liberal. I think that their rhetoric owes a lot more to Mao and Marx than it does to Hume and Mills, though the former cannot be free of the latter.

 

[Ashes]

Aye colonial wealth (that came out of nowhere!). You may as well take shots at my faith too if it pleases you. A faith that is tied to slavery for a millenia: tolerated it, moderated it.

But to get back on point, in what ways is secular liberialism is fundamentally contradictory to democracy when it appears to work well enough. Sort of.

 

[OttomanScribe]

But to get back on point, in what ways is secular liberalism is fundamentally contradictory to democracy when it appears to work well enough. Sort of.

The foundational idea of liberalism is really the rights of the individual (and there is a whole bunch of stuff we could talk about about the creation of the liberal individual) while democracy is, at its core, about the rights of the majority upon the individual. Using the term 'rights' loosely here.

So there is a fundamental contradiction at the heart of any liberal democracy, a clash between a person imagined as separate from society, and a person who is part of and owes everything to, society.

Part of the issue is a disconnect between the theoretical foundations of liberalism and its form as a political movement. You find that people often will discuss 'rights' in a vacuum, as though there is no philosophical foundation to the idea. Indeed the fact that 'rights' have a particular intellectual origin, and justification seems lost on many. The concept of rights stems from justification of their utility, and beyond 'natural law' arguments (essentially the idea that 'rights' are apparent in creation and therefore a sign of natural law, and therefore an extension of God's will/law) aren't really stand alone things.

You could argue that conservatism can provide a foundation for the validity of 'rights' as a concept but really we start moving away from liberalism when we do so.

 

[Ashes]

The foundational idea of liberalism is really the rights of the individual (and there is a whole bunch of stuff we could talk about about the creation of the liberal individual) while democracy is, at its core, about the rights of the majority upon the individual. Using the term 'rights' loosely here.

So there is a fundamental contradiction at the heart of any liberal democracy, a clash between a person imagined as separate from society, and a person who is part of and owes everything to, society.

Is this your own supposition?

I have never heard of a liberal who renounces one completely for the other, so the art has always been in the balance.

The many can vote for the liberty of the individual. & how do you get equality in your definition of liberalism if not accounting for the many?