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[dripdripsplash]

Utter bollocks. You should have closed your tab as soon as you read the first answer. Definetly an anti-Islam website too. Ayaan Ali citations and all, they got the whole package.

It is an Islamist supremacist organization, which has the ultimate vision of achieving a worldwide Islamic State which recognizes no territorial boundaries, is ruled by a Caliph, and governs by Sharia law.

Haha the OIC ?! They can't agree on nothing, imagine them agreeing to give up on their riches and power as leaders for an Islamic Nation, a utopia I say. In other words, bollocks.

 

[Tizoc]

Woaaaaah!
Imsak over here is at 4 AM, which is folowed shortly by Morning prayer.
Futoor is at 7 PM, Evening prayer is at 8:30 PM meaning we finish by 9:30 PM.
All in all that's just under 10 hours for any chance at eating anything haha.

Spoiler

the average joe over here would prob. stay up all night til morning prayer then sleep all morning @_@

 

[crazy monkey]

Woaaaaah!
Imsak over here is at 4 AM, which is folowed shortly by Morning prayer.
Futoor is at 7 PM, Evening prayer is at 8:30 PM meaning we finish by 9:30 PM.
All in all that's just under 10 hours for any chance at eating anything haha.

Spoiler

the average joe over here would prob. stay up all night til morning prayer then sleep all morning @_@

3.30(4) TO 9.45 FOR US. 11PM IS ISHA.

 

[Ashes]

Anyone here mark shab-e-barat?

 

[crazy monkey]

Anyone here mark shab-e-barat?

tonight.yes.

 

[FullMetalx117]

Just read sura yaseen with my family 3 times. Feel pretty embarrassed that my younger sister was actually better than me at reading the quran. But I'm also kind of proud.

 

[CrazyDude]

A curious question came into my head, what direction would a muslim pray if they went to live on Mars?

 

[archnemesis]

Towards planet earth?

 

[Ashes]

Towards planet earth?

Considering that the direction of Earth from Mars isn't at the same place all the time, it'd be difficult. But I'd agree with you.

Luckily, best guesses are OK, when one has exhausted reason and knowledge.

 

[archnemesis]

By the time we reach Mars there will be an app for that.

 

[F#A#Oo]

Some recommendation please brothers and sisters if you've been Umrah and Hajj. What footwear would you recommend and is permissible?

I didn't even know that one needed permissible footwear.

 

[Instigator]

Is "humor" originally an Arabic word?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBPQI424ltM
































I guess not.

 

[dripdripsplash]

Is "humor" originally an Arabic word?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBPQI424ltM

I guess not.

Well articulated and well thought out post that surely will be the starting point of an informative and good debate!

Thanks for posting!

EDIT: And to actually adress your post. No it is absolutely not an laughing matter to mock your sisters and brothers. Even "for fun". What's fun for you and your friends could very well be a heartbreaking thing for the person joked about.

 

[Instigator]

Well articulated and well thought out post that surely will be the starting point of an informative and good debate!

Thanks for posting!

EDIT: And to actually adress your post. No it is absolutely not an laughing matter to mock your sisters and brothers. Even "for fun". What's fun for you and your friends could very well be a heartbreaking thing for the person joked about.

Except that's not what he is saying.

He's saying not just concepts are off limits, but inanimate objects are too. Well, certain objects anyway.

You can make fun of ties and cars, he doesn't care. But heaven forbid you made a joke, no matter how benign, about a certain piece of garment Islam holds dear, someone, somewhere might be offended. Worse, it might damage the cause of Islam because you are aiding the kafirs.

It's lunacy. It's not aiding Islam. And I'd argue it could lead to violence if the full meaning of those statements are followed to their logical conclusion, a far worse consequence than someone getting upset.

 

[dripdripsplash]

Except that's not what he is saying.

He's saying not just concepts are off limits, but inanimate objects are too. Well, certain objects anyway.

You can make fun of ties and cars, he doesn't care. But heaven forbid you made a joke, no matter how benign, about a certain piece of garment Islam holds dear, someone, somewhere might be offended. Worse, it might damage the cause of Islam because you are aiding the kafirs.

It's lunacy. And it's not aiding Islam.

I must admit I did not watch the full 30 minute video. Also I would like you to know that there are hundreds and thousands of clerics and sheikhs that speak about these matters in their own different way.

What I'm trying to say is that this dude probably doesn't have the influence on Muslims in general as you maybe think he has and therefore want's to discuss. I've just heard about him now. Albeit that he does has his share of followers. (Guessing based on the views off the video.)

What you think of it not aiding Islam, well that is your opinion. I think that the mocking off a sisters hijab or a brothers beard, or heck mocking of any man or women is a heartless thing too do and therefore I agree with him on these points.


EDIT:

You can make fun of ties and cars, he doesn't care. But heaven forbid you made a joke...

I don't know why but this made me giggle.

 

[Instigator]

To put it into perspective, there's a local TV show with Muslim girl comedians where they make fun of the natives but also of people within their own community. It can be funny sometimes, but it got me wondering if the laughter was universally shared.

To no great surprise, it isn't, but it isn't just "those girls aren't funny", but more "these girls ought not to make fun of anything Islam" and other virulent reactions of the type. That's how I found the video posted earlier.

For the record, it's not like I'd expect Saudi Arabia or Sudan to be cool with (that kind of) comedy, but it irks me the wrong way when immigrants complain their liberal country of adoption is... liberal. What are you doing here anyway?

I think it's still possible for a pious, conservative, Muslim person to live in a liberal country. If that person feels they are things that are sacred, he/she lives by her way. But there has to be a recognition than not everybody feels that way, including fellow Muslims, and there are not legislation/sanctions to force others to conform to a more conservative Muslim POV.

So yeah, another Muslim made fun of the hijab. Deal with it. It won't trigger another Siege of Bagdad by the Mongols.

 

[dripdripsplash]

To put it into perspective, there's a local TV show with Muslim girl comedians where they make fun of the natives but also of people within their own community. It can be funny sometimes, but it got me wondering if the laughter was universally shared.

To no great surprise, it isn't, but it isn't just "those girls aren't funny", but more "these girls ought not to make fun of anything Islam" and other virulent reactions of the type. That's how I found the video.

For the record, it's not like I'd expect Saudi Arabia or Sudan to be cool with (that kind of) comedy, but it irks me the wrong way when immigrants complain their liberal country of adoption is... liberal. What are you doing here anyway?

I think it's still possible for a pious, conservative, Muslim person to live in a liberal country. If that person feels they are things that are sacred, he/she lives by her way. But there has to be a recognition than not everybody feels that way, including fellow Muslims, and there are not legislation/sanctions to force others to conform to a more conservative Muslim POV.

So yeah, another Muslim made fun of the hijab. Deal with it.

I know what you're getting at. I think your Danish aren't you ?

It's that sketch comedy show right ?

To be complete honest with you I watched some of it, most of it was kind off cringeworthy and the show quickly lost all attention after a couple of weeks had passed since it got aired.

Personally I think the whole debate is a personal headache of mine. This idea that all things should be mocked does not sit well in Muslim communities. If that hasn't already been very clear.

I think it's funny though, since there is a lot of mainstream Arab comedy about different things in our own culture and religion. I'm talking about stuff that get's shared on social media and stuff and also a lot of Arab comedy shows. I think it's when it reaches a public showing in western countries that some people may misunderstand it as mocking instead of just pure fun. As it is getting showed to everyone, including Danes, it may give the impression to some that this is a show for Danes to in turn laugh AT us, and not WITH the show or something.

It's more accepted to make a joke about your own ethnicity/religion/culture in an inside group of people that pertains to the same ethnicity/religion/culture than to people outside of this group. When it is shown outside of the group it may be seen as a mocking of these things instead of a simple joke. If you get what I mean ?

Sorry if this whole post is incoherent as I've haven't had a lot of sleep today.

EDIT: And of course it was a group of some few, but very vocal people, that hated the show, but gave it all the attention that I'm sure it wouldn't have had otherwise.

 

[Instigator]

I was concerned I would have to post a clip, since the very few English clips are not very "controversial". It's good I don't have to.

I can understand a minority might feel uneasy about being exposed to outsiders, but the show to me is more like an equal opportunity hitter.

For example, there's a setup where a virgin Muslim girl (pretending, of course) asks for sex advice to random strangers. Some may see it as demeaning to a girl, but the payoff is really the awful advice she receives from the natives.

Personally, I see it as a sign of integration, both ways, that a show like this is on the air. Both communities are not quite apart anymore, they meet, laugh and learn to understand each other through comedy. Foreign becomes normal.

 

[dripdripsplash]

I was concerned I would have to post a clip, since the very few English clips are not very "controversial". It's good I don't have to.

I can understand a minority might feel uneasy about being exposed to outsiders, but the show to me is more like an equal opportunity hitter.

For example, there's a setup where a virgin Muslim girl (pretending, of course) asks for sex advice to random strangers. Some may see it as demeaning to a girl, but the payoff is really the awful advice she receives from the natives.

Personally, I see it as a sign of integration, both ways, that a show like this is on the air. Both communities are not quite apart anymore, they meet, laugh and learn to understand each other through comedy. Foreign becomes normal.

And exactly this is a thing that is foreign to many people. Integration through jokes/mocking of things pertaining to our culture, is a complete foreign and outright strange idea to many people!

Try to wrap your mind around this.

Spoiler

(Sorry if this line sounds condescending, not my intention.)

It may be seen as normal in Danish culture to laugh at things to make the stigma and taboo surrounding it go away, but that's not how all cultures deal with it, and that's why some people were so riled up! Why do we have to follow YOUR rules to how WE should integrate!

I'm all for integration, and I'm sure that there is a lot of people there are! To take the best of the Danish culture and the best of the persons own culture and mix it all together to get the best of both worlds. What could be better.

But why not let the people themselves chose how they want to integrate themselves. Maybe they do not wish to put themselves /their culture/their religion "out there" in that fashion.

Maybe they hold this dear to a point that they simply can't handle such things but still want to be a part of the Danish society. That is what is splitting folks up. It is making them chose between their own identity or outright assimilation

Spoiler

(hmmm... det er da ikke det samme på engelsk vel ?) EDIT: Det er det!

. And that is what is wrong.

 

[Instigator]

But it's not so foreign because fellow Muslims are already doing it. They dealt with it. And now they're sharing it through comedy.

Sure, not everyone is as easy-going and I'm not asking them to make fun of everything to prove they finally belong. But they're here, it's time to cope with the reality around you. It might be shocking initially, but you should adapt. If you can't, maybe you should consider leaving?

And like many immigrants, they can continue living parallel lives. They understand the rules and customs, know to send their kids to school, how to get a job, hold it and speak in the language of their host country. And then they go back to their apartment/houses, speak Arabic/Urdu/Pashtun, listen to nothing but satellite TV from their home country, attend evening prayer.

Integration doesn't mean assimilation. It's just an adaptation process to function in society at large rather than being stuck in a ghetto, unemployed. frustrated.

Besides, the show is not an integration tool, it's just a satirical TV program (made by integrated immigrants).

 

[dripdripsplash]

But it's not so foreign because fellow Muslims are already doing it. They dealt with it. And now they're sharing it through comedy.

Sure, not everyone is as easy-going and I'm not asking them to make fun of everything to prove they finally belong. But they're here, it's time to cope with the reality around you. It might be shocking initially, but you should adapt. If you can't, maybe you should consider leaving?

And like many immigrants, they can continue living parallel lives. They understand the rules and customs, know to send their kids to school, how to get a job, hold it and speak in the language of their host country. And then they go back to their apartment/houses, speak Arabic/Urdu/Pashtun, listen to nothing but satellite TV from their home country, attend evening prayer.

Integration doesn't mean assimilation. It's just an adaptation process to function in society at large rather than being stuck in a ghetto, unemployed. frustrated.

Besides, the show is not an integration tool, it's just a satirical TV program (made by integrated immigrants).

If your talking about simply abiding the law, speaking the language, getting a job and working. Then I absolutely agree with you. Why shouldn't any person do this ?

I have a hard time thinking of people who refuse to do these things, can you come with an example ?

 

[Instigator]

If your talking about simply abiding the law, speaking the language, getting a job and working. Then I absolutely agree with you. Why shouldn't any person do this ?

I have a hard time thinking of people who refuse to do these things, can you come with an example ?

Yeah, but holding a job is more than just showing up and doing the work. You have to be able to interact with coworkers so something trivial like a female boss, gay couple, drinking beer or eating pork doesn't become a source of discord and conflict because you can't handle it.

The language thing is a bit of a picky issue. Many foreigners do not bother to learn it, especially those there in the more short-term. Third-worlders and native English speakers are most guilty of that. It is true that you can get by with English only, most people speak it and some jobs do only require English. But long-term, English-only is a seriously limiting factor for employment, understanding how things work and I believe more generally, it shows a lack of effort and courtesy on the part of the foreigner to his host country.

 

[dripdripsplash]

Yeah, but holding a job is more than just showing up and doing the work. You have to be able to interact with coworkers so something trivial like a female boss, gay couple, drinking beer or eating pork doesn't become a source of discord and conflict because you can't handle it.

The language thing is a bit of a picky issue. Many foreigners do not bother to learn it, especially those there in the more short-term. Third-worlders and native English speakers are most guilty of that. It is true that you can get by with English only, most people speak it and some jobs do only require English. But long-term, English-only is a seriously limiting factor for employment, understanding how things work and I believe more generally, it shows a lack of effort and courtesy on the part of the foreigner to his host country.

Who says you have to interact with your coworkers. That's your own decision. You can't force anyone to interact with people they do not wish to interact with. And I'm not sure what you're saying here at the bolded part. Can you be more precise about this ?

And to the language thing, as you've said long-term it can be a problem, and then I agree with you. If you're here permamently it will greatly help you by learning the language and you should.

Though I do not see the necessity in having a short-term temporary working immigrant having learn the whole language if he does not have time nor will to do so.

EDIT: I re-read your post and I think I misunderstood the interaction thing. I thought you were talking about socially, in the workers free time for example. Well sure the worker has to be able to interact with his boss even if she is female, if he does not wish so he can find another job of course. I don't get the gay couples mention though. Where do they fit in the picture ?

 

[Instigator]

The gay couple fits in the picture because this is not a taboo subject here. So someone might be openly gay (maybe two, at the same place, a couple), something not usually seen in more repressive, conservative countries. You just have to be ready for it. I don't think finding another job is dealing with the issue, it's avoiding it. No one is asking you to abandon Islam and just condone the "deviance" through a signed document and a public pledge, but you have to at least tolerate it. Otherwise, how can you work in the service industry? How can you work with any people around, period?

But if the roles are reversed, it is still true. If by some bad luck, I was stationed in Riyad, I know there would be some... adjustments to make. Despite the intense heat, resist the urge to go out in a speedo drinking a cold (smuggled) beer. Avoid talking about Jesus or anything that could be construed as proselytizing. Pay attention to road signs so you don't end up deep inside Mecca by mistake. Need something at the store? Don't give the wife the car keys, drive yourself there. Yeah, it might be all silly, offensive, backwards to you, but when in Rome, do as the Romans.

 

[OttomanScribe]

The function of comedy is to put sugar on unpalatable truths... if a show isn't doing that, or is presenting a truth that is false, then that is an issue. It is also about the intent of comedy. The show I am currently working on (a panel show, by Muslims for Muslims) I would never pitch to the wider audience because the line between presenting truths to Muslims and presenting the Muslim community as a subject of ridicule would then be crossed.

As to integration. That is a waste of time. We either get respect as a distinct community, or we don't. Attempting to 'assimilate' never works, no matter how much one tries, it will never be good enough.

 

[Instigator]

The function of comedy is to put sugar on unpalatable truths... if a show isn't doing that, or is presenting a truth that is false, then that is an issue. It is also about the intent of comedy. The show I am currently working on (a panel show, by Muslims for Muslims) I would never pitch to the wider audience because the line between presenting truths to Muslims and presenting the Muslim community as a subject of ridicule would then be crossed.

As to integration. That is a waste of time. We either get respect as a distinct community, or we don't. Attempting to 'assimilate' never works, no matter how much one tries, it will never be good enough.

Ottomanscribe wrong again.

Most of the Celts in continental Europe became Christian, Latin speakers during Roman times. Assimilation worked.

The previously Christian and Zoroastrian populations of North Africa, the Middle East and Persia gradually assimilated to the Muslim new order in the Middle Ages. Another success story.

The Germans, Irish, Italians and most of the Europeans that immigrated to the US became the white, English-speaking (slim) majority we know today.

And that's just assimilation, not necessarily simple integration which is different and much milder.

Some ethnic and religious minorities fare much better than others in the very same society. Is there something outside that prevents some groups to integrate as well as the others or is it something within some of those minorities that sabotages their very own integration? As far as many Muslims are concerned, I'd say it's more the latter.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Is "humor" originally an Arabic word?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBPQI424ltM

Sigh, I can't stand stuffy old muslims.
Talking about kafirs, traitors, honour, and all sorts of nonsense.

I much prefer the muslims that are about as moderate as most christians are in the west.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Ottomanscribe wrong again.

Glad to hear it.

Most of the Celts in continental Europe became Christian, Latin speakers during Roman times. Assimilation worked.

Anachronism.

The previously Christian and Zoroastrian populations of North Africa, the Middle East and Persia gradually assimilated to the Muslim new order in the Middle Ages. Another success story.

Anachronism.

The Germans, Irish, Italians and most of the Europeans that immigrated to the US became the white, English-speaking (slim) majority we know today.

Okay. Not sure of relevance?

And that's just assimilation, not necessarily simple integration which is different and much milder.

Not sure how any of these are a counter to my point.

Some ethnic and religious minorities fare much better than others in the very same society. Is there something outside that prevents some groups to integrate as well as the others or is it something within some of those minorities that sabotages their very own integration? As far as many Muslims are concerned, I'd say it's more the latter.

The desire to maintain a distinct cultural or ethnic identity within a nation-state is no longer a viable proposition. Do I want to live in a ghetto because I have some irredentist desire by virtue of being an anti-assimilationist fifth column? Or is the nationalist project inherently antipathetic to diversity.

The latter seems to be pretty obviously the case. The former is a project of blaming immigrants for the formation of minority communities, which social geography show us are created and maintained through white flight, discrimination and socio-economic imperatives.

 

[Instigator]

Anachronism.

If it never works then an anachronism shouldn't matter, should it?

Or is the nationalist project inherently antipathetic to diversity.

Diversity of what?

There are certain common values to make a society work. You get a basic education (instead of just making kids work the fields), enough to get a job, pay taxes and try not to get in trouble with the law. You've done your part, you can do nearly anything you want now.

Diversity in the private sphere is not an issue. And as a citizen, you can vote, organize, push almost any agenda. So most people don't warm up to your archaic ideas/values? So what? You just have a minority opinion. Deal with it.

The latter seems to be pretty obviously the case. The former is a project of blaming immigrants for the formation of minority communities, which social geography show us are created and maintained through white flight, discrimination and socio-economic imperatives.

Ah so just shift the blame.

So yeah, there's no issue of people coming in, especially Muslims, and refusing to integrate. They all gladly learn the local language, move away from their own people, try to blend in. If somehow you see a group of people sticking out in traditional clothing in what looks like a ghetto, it's just white flight, job discrimination and other trouble that kept them from moving on. They just had to keep their old clothes they immigrated with, they couldn't get anything else. Come on, it shouldn't matter. Look past appearances and give these people a break. Use an interpreter to learn their story.

Any report of attitude problems and demanding special treatments, it's just hogwash. The Dhimmi are treated like royalty back in home country so they just mistakenly expect the same courtesy in their new country. And of course, the level of freedom and opportunities back home is just unparalleled, these people often get disappointed with how little they can actually say and do once they get stuck in the West. They're not quite prepared for it.

If only you could move to Saudi Arabia or Pakistan and live the dream of a foreign Muslim in a Muslim land. Yet most do not make the move or even try. I wonder why.

What is the old saying again?

It seems that sometimes a Muslim can be defined as:
a person who left a country he did not like,
to go to a country he does not like,
to turn it into a country he will not like.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Some recommendation please brothers and sisters if you've been Umrah and Hajj. What footwear would you recommend and is permissible?

I didn't even know that one needed permissible footwear.

I wasn't made aware that I need "permissible" footwear during my Umrah to Mecca and Medina.

Well, it has been a very long while since I went there though, maybe things have changed. Wear something light is my recommendation.

 

[OttomanScribe]

If it never works then an anachronism shouldn't matter, should it?

What I am describing, and what you are describing, is different. This different is the anachronistic application of ideas not present at the time. E.g. 'Celts'.

Diversity of what?

Diversity of identities, be they religious, racial, ethnic, ideological etc. nationalism is an inherently homogenising ideal.

There are certain common values to make a society work. You get a basic education (instead of just making kids work the fields), enough to get a job, pay taxes and try not to get in trouble with the law. You've done your part, you can do nearly anything you want now.

Those aren't values.

Also this contradicts what you are arguing for.

Diversity in the private sphere is not an issue. And as a citizen, you can vote, organize, push almost any agenda. So most people don't warm up to your archaic ideas/values? So what? You just have a minority opinion. Deal with it.

The public sphere is corrosive to minorities. All those things you describe are inherently stacked against the subaltern. I have a problem with that, you, by the sounds of it, do not.

Ah so just shift the blame.

This isn't so much about blame as it is about accurate descriptions of reality.

So yeah, there's no issue of people coming in, especially Muslims, and refusing to integrate. They all gladly learn the local language, move away from their own people, try to blend in. If somehow you see a group of people sticking out in traditional clothing in what looks like a ghetto, it's just white flight, job discrimination and other trouble that kept them from moving on. They just had to keep their old clothes they immigrated with, they couldn't get anything else. Come on, it shouldn't matter. Look past appearances and give these people a break. Use an interpreter to learn their story.

You have internalised a narrative which makes expressions of diversity, be they linguistic, clothing, whatever, as a threat to the state, to intercommunality. That is a product of the ideology of nationalism, and is not some ever present historical reality. I don't view people vainly attempting to mimic the 'national' identity pushed upon them as some positive move.

If only you could move to Saudi Arabia or Pakistan and live the dream of a foreign Muslim in a Muslim land. Yet most do not make the move or even try. I wonder why.

What is the old saying again?

Because I wouldn't be escaping hegemonic systems of power by the act of doing so. The journey to imperial foci is a product of wealth redistribution that favours the centres of Empire.

It seems that sometimes a Muslim can be defined as:
a person who left a country he did not like,
to go to a country he does not like,
to turn it into a country he will not like.

That doesn't remotely describe me. And where did you get that dumb saying?

 

[Instigator]

What I am describing, and what you are describing, is different. This different is the anachronistic application of ideas not present at the time. E.g. 'Celts'.

You even complained about the American example but it's barely a century removed. Assimilation takes time. Difficult to claim success in a process that is ongoing elsewhere.

Assimilation works. It has worked as long as there has been different human cultures.

Diversity of identities, be they religious, racial, ethnic, ideological etc. nationalism is an inherently homogenising ideal.

An abstract ideal perhaps, but then you have a state in practice. In most Western countries, it's built around a division of powers and guarantees certain rights for all. There's no prohibition to be Muslim. No penalty for converting to Islam. No jizya (tax) just for being Muslim. They have no obligation to reveal their religious affiliation. If they feel wronged, they can contest it legally.

Where is this invisible force that keeps Muslims from being Muslims?

The public sphere is corrosive to minorities. All those things you describe are inherently stacked against the subaltern. I have a problem with that, you, by the sounds of it, do not.

The public sphere is also an opportunity.

But who risks nothing has nothing. Keep a low profile, shut your mouth and wallow in self-pity.

This isn't so much about blame as it is about accurate descriptions of reality.

Nah, one-sided interpretation at best.

You have internalised a narrative which makes expressions of diversity, be they linguistic, clothing, whatever, as a threat to the state, to intercommunality. That is a product of the ideology of nationalism, and is not some ever present historical reality. I don't view people vainly attempting to mimic the 'national' identity pushed upon them as some positive move.

Natives don't usually like wearing suit and ties either yet they do it in some circumstances.

You view it as oppression of minorities, I view it as general accepted conventions within a culture to convey qualities about yourself. Traditional clothing is not a threat, neither is holed jeans and screen-printed t-shirts, but it's not in your best interest to wear those everywhere all the time.

But go ahead, make your stand, you'll likely misunderstand why your potential next employer didn't call you back.

That doesn't remotely describe me. And where did you get that dumb saying?

Why does it have to be about you when we have been talking about Muslim diasporas all along?

 

[OttomanScribe]

You even complained about the American example but it's barely a century removed. Assimilation takes time. Difficult to claim success in a process that is ongoing elsewhere.

I questioned its relevancy to the argument, considering that the example does not correlate with what we are discussing.

Assimilation works. It has worked as long as there has been different human cultures.

Assimilation in what sense, the word has been used so many times in different contexts that it is relatively meaningless without a further explanation of exactly what you mean by it.

An abstract ideal perhaps, but then you have a state in practice. In most Western countries, it's built around a division of powers and guarantees certain rights for all. There's no prohibition to be Muslim. No penalty for converting to Islam. No jizya (tax) just for being Muslim. They have no obligation to reveal their religious affiliation. If they feel wronged, they can contest it legally.

Where is this invisible force that keeps Muslims from being Muslims?

You are arguing that they shouldn't, that even the wearing of different clothes or speaking of different languages can be taken as a threat to intercommunal relations and therefore should be abandoned.

What you are talking about is definitions of citizenship, which have no place in a conversation about 'assimilation'.

The public sphere is also an opportunity.

But who risks nothing has nothing. Keep a low profile, shut your mouth and wallow in self-pity.

Like I said, the public sphere is corrosive. The idea that the subaltern can speak, unhindered in a place of hegemonic power is a fantasy.

Nah, one-sided interpretation at best.

It is either about blame or it is isn't. It isn't.

Natives don't usually like wearing suit and ties either yet they do it in some circumstances.

What?

You view it as oppression of minorities, I view it as general accepted conventions within a culture to convey qualities about yourself. Traditional clothing is not a threat, neither is holed jeans and screen-printed t-shirts, but it's not in your best interest to wear those everywhere all the time.

But go ahead, make your stand, you'll likely misunderstand why your potential next employer didn't call you back.

What you are describing is precisely what I am talking about, the corrosive power of the public sphere. Where non-adherence to majority norms carries a real social cost. Where the individual is presented with either staying within their own community, or abandoning anything that is not the dominant norm.

Why does it have to be about you when we have been talking about Muslim diasporas all along?

Because you use ridiculous quotes that don't describe the vast majority of Muslims living in the West? Most of whom live there because they were born their or were compelled through social economic factors to live there.

 

[dripdripsplash]

Do you see halal meat as a threat to the Danish culture, Instigator ?

 

[Instigator]

Assimilation in what sense, the word has been used so many times in different contexts that it is relatively meaningless without a further explanation of exactly what you mean by it.

Religious and linguistic for Celts.

Religious and partially linguistic for Muslim converts.

Linguistic for the white Americans

I don't know why you have to make things complicated.

You are arguing that they shouldn't, that even the wearing of different clothes or speaking of different languages can be taken as a threat to intercommunal relations and therefore should be abandoned.

No, I'm talking about failing to even know the local language, knowing clothing norms and just living in a bubble, that is dumb. If you just happen to know other languages or like to dress up on medieval weekends, that's none of my concern. My criticism is the failure to adapt to make you a productive member of society.

If you have refugee status, you might get a free pass. But if you are someone who just wanted to change countries or you are an economic migrant, that'a unacceptable.

What you are talking about is definitions of citizenship, which have no place in a conversation about 'assimilation'.

Assimilation is just a side discussion.

Integration is enough for immigrants as far as I'm concerned..

Like I said, the public sphere is corrosive. The idea that the subaltern can speak, unhindered in a place of hegemonic power is a fantasy.

Anyone can have an opinion, it doesn't necessarily mean it's worth a damn and should be shouted at every outlet. When I was talking about the controversial tv show earlier, voices were raised by the "subalterns", it became part of the public debate. If the same people then want to warn people about the downsides of eating pork then quite obviously, they're going to be ignored and quite rightfully so.

What you are describing is precisely what I am talking about, the corrosive power of the public sphere. Where non-adherence to majority norms carries a real social cost. Where the individual is presented with either staying within their own community, or abandoning anything that is not the dominant norm.

But getting a degree is a majority norm. Getting work experience is a majority norm. Speaking a language the rest of the people who live around you is a majority norm. You have a real distorted view of what is to be an individual/minority and how making an effort to reach the rest of people half way is somehow wrong.

Yes, you are a real dumbass if you fail to understand those norms and fail to make the effort. You deserve to be a social outcast. Unfortunately, it's also likely to make you a leech for public assistance which I think is the far greater offense.

 

[Instigator]

Do you see halal meat as a threat to the Danish culture, Instigator ?

Depends. The issue is complex.

I am not against halal meat being produced and sold in the country.

I am also a big supporter of proper labelling so halal meat should be labelled as such.

As for daycare, I favor the compromise reached in other Western countries. Don't change the entire menu just for the sake of a few kids. But like kids with allergies, alternative menus can be offered to Muslim parents who demand it for their kids. Pork is relatively cheap in DK (compared to beef) and a mainstay of Danish culture so it's silly to remove it completely.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Religious and linguistic for Celts.

Religious and partially linguistic for Muslim converts.

Linguistic for the white Americans

I don't know why you have to make things complicated.

I asked for a definition of 'assimilation'.

No, I'm talking about failing to even know the local language, knowing clothing norms and just living in a bubble, that is dumb. If you just happen to know other languages or like to dress up on medieval weekends, that's none of my concern. My criticism is the failure to adapt to make you a productive member of society.

What does wearing different clothes have to do with productivity?

If you have refugee status, you might get a free pass. But if you are someone who just wanted to change countries or you are an economic migrant, that'a unacceptable.

Why?

Assimilation is just a side discussion.

Integration is enough for immigrants as far as I'm concerned..

What does 'integration' mean?

Anyone can have an opinion, it doesn't necessarily mean it's worth a damn and should be shouted at every outlet. When I was talking about the controversial tv show earlier, voices were raised by the "subalterns", it became part of the public debate. If the same people then want to warn people about the downsides of eating pork then quite obviously, they're going to be ignored and quite rightfully so.

You clearly don't understand what I am saying here.

But getting a degree is a majority norm. Getting work experience is a majority norm. Speaking a language the rest of the people who live around you is a majority norm

Are you saying that migrants don't get degrees or work?

You have a real distorted view of what is to be an individual/minority and how making an effort to reach the rest of people half way is somehow wrong.

I don't see how my opinions are distorted.

Yes, you are a real dumbass if you fail to understand those norms and fail to make the effort. You deserve to be a social outcast. Unfortunately, it's also likely to make you a leech for public assistance which I think is the far greater offense.

You are here agreeing with me, that there is a massive social cost to not conforming to an unattainable majority norm, culturally, religiously and linguistically. What do you mean a 'leech for public assistance'?

I view the former issue as a problem, and the reason that the public sphere is corrosive to minority groups, and therefore why they seek refuge from it. You don't see it as a problem, which is fine, but it really shows how hollow the rhetoric of democratic involvement and social coherency is in modern nation states.

 

[F#A#Oo]

Integration is over rated.

When people talk about integration here in the UK, deep down what it means is; getting Muslims down the pub, go clubbing and for the sisters it means dating and casual sex with hopes of marriage.

Marrying into the same culture and religion is brought up as a problem. I've seen a guy saying he fancied a Muslim girl but because she turned him down he blames "Islam" and her "Paki culture" for him not being able to have a relationship with her...what does he do? Join up with the EDL.

Integration has turned into another way of saying we want to exploit and use you for our ends.

You even said it yourself instigator; you want people to mingle at work and have relations at and outside work.

 

[F#A#Oo]

I wasn't made aware that I need "permissible" footwear during my Umrah to Mecca and Medina.

Well, it has been a very long while since I went there though, maybe things have changed. Wear something light is my recommendation.

Yeah you cannot cover the ankle bone and the top of the foot bone.

 

[Instigator]

Integration is over rated.

When people talk about integration here in the UK, deep down what it means is; getting Muslims down the pub, go clubbing and for the sisters it means dating and casual sex with hopes of marriage.

Marrying into the same culture and religion is brought up as a problem. I've seen a guy saying he fancied a Muslim girl but because she turned him down he blames "Islam" and her "Paki culture" for him not being able to have a relationship with her...what does he do? Join up with the EDL.

Integration has turned into another way of saying we want to exploit and use you for our ends.

You even said it yourself instigator; you want people to mingle at work and have relations at and outside work.

Yes, my evil plan is to get human beings, who are social animals, to talk and interact with one another. I'm really a genocidal monster to even dare suggest such a thing.

See, if you have a broken country, with different ethnic groups at odds with each other for centuries. That's hard to fix. But if you have a country that already works and new people want to come in, it's easier to keep that working

 

[Instigator]

I asked for a definition of 'assimilation'.

Assimilation is really when you have two different groups at one point and after a period of time, the two groups have become indistinguishable. This can be a natural process or it can be engineered.

The difference with integration is the two groups have not merged, but they are still functional, cooperating and contributing together to the welfare of the greater state. Obviously, with a country with immigration, the natives can dictate beforehand how the newcomers will be integrated. It doesn't always work exactly according to plan, but it can work. Some immigrant groups adapt easier than other groups.

What does wearing different clothes have to do with productivity?

Well it depends.

If you insist on showing up with traditional clothing at job interviews, you may very well be shooting yourself in the foot by sending the wrong message. It's not the attire that is wrong in itself, but it wasn't suited for the situation. No job, no productivity.

Obviously, some jobs require you to wear specific clothes so even if you got the job, refusing to switch clothes when the job requires it will get you fired.

Some jobs are more subtle, they don't have a very specific dress code, but they might not want you to stick out of the crowd too much. So traditional clothing can be the same as showing up with blue hair.

If you understand "majority norms", all of this shouldn't be an issue.

Why?

Well, refugees are let in primarily on humanitarian grounds, regardless of skills and future prospects. I can totally imagine someone who just barely escaped his country, not having really thought through where and how he was going to make it.

The other class is different. These people immigrated voluntarily, as part of a lifeplan and more likely, their case has to be processed by a bureaucracy. Immigration countries can pick and choose who they want and who might have the best chances. There are many loopholes, but if you can get in, there is an implicit understanding you will be a law-abiding, productive member of society. So obviously, if you failed to go to language class or have been unwilling to do some (type of) work, then obviously, you have not fulfilled your end of the bargain.

You clearly don't understand what I am saying here.

No I do. We just disagree on whether they have a voice or not.

Are you saying that migrants don't get degrees or work?

Ha ha, now you're being cute.

It all comes back to the same fucking point. You spend a lot of time discussing the details of proper clothing, but yes, it's a degree of conformity. Not all the time, not everywhere but doing what is needed to get a job, possibly a career, and be a productive member of society. Of course, anyone can get a degree, but that doesn't mean everyone does or even tries.

When you go to language school, you are conforming. When you get a degree, you are confirming. You are sacrificing time and a bit of your (minority) individuality talking and working with other people, doing what society expects of you. But you are also acquiring valuable skills, skills that can be used in the market place locally and possibly abroad, skills that will earn you money to support your family.

You are here agreeing with me, that there is a massive social cost to not conforming to an unattainable majority norm, culturally, religiously and linguistically.

No actually, we're only agreeing on the failure to adapt, I don't see costs the same way you do. There's no sacrifice to the Roman emperor, you can still be Muslim. Nothing forbids you from using your first language. People can disagree with you, but no one is forcing you to change your mind on (more cultural) issues. Obviously, contact with other people might influence you and people can change their mind but avoiding contact with the rest of the population for fear of contamination is silly and quite frankly, a bit insulting. And it still begs the question; why move there in the first place?

What do you mean a 'leech for public assistance'?

Well, the West is not Yemen. If one fails to support himself, the only option is not just moving back to your parents' place or beg in the street. There's a social safety net that helps out people with monetary benefits. Like with any group, this can create a dependency problem in the long-term.

 

[F#A#Oo]

Yes, my evil plan is to get human beings, who are social animals, to talk and interact with one another. I'm really a genocidal monster to even dare suggest such a thing.

See, if you have a broken country, with different ethnic groups at odds with each other for centuries. That's hard to fix. But if you have a country that already works and new people want to come in, it's easier to keep that working

So which country "works" then?

 

[Instigator]

So which country "works" then?

North America and Australia work better with immigrants than most of Europe. But even with Europe, I'd argue the problem is limited to specific immigrants.

But please, tell us more about the bad intentions of local boys. So non-Muslims only want to sleep with and marry Muslim girls? What do Muslim boys want? Please, try to make it convincing.

 

[Ashes]

North America and Australia work better with immigrants than most of Europe. But even Europe, I'd argue the problem is limited to specific immigrants.

But please, tell us more about the bad intentions of local boys. So non-Muslims only want to sleep with and marry Muslim girls? What do Muslim boys want? Please, try to make it convincing.

Free roaming in EU>North America+ Australia.

 

[F#A#Oo]

North America and Australia work better with immigrants than most of Europe. But even with Europe, I'd argue the problem is limited to specific immigrants.

North America? Well America is out of the question...they are still struggling with immigration and they invented the ghetto model that we now see in Europe...

Australia? Have you read the news lately? lol

But please, tell us more about the bad intentions of local boys. So non-Muslims only want to sleep with and marry Muslim girls? What do Muslim boys want? Please, try to make it convincing.

I wasn't the one who feels that immigrants need to mingle and mix in communities...I'm firmly in the "I don't care" "no interest" side.

 

[Instigator]

North America? Well America is out of the question...they are still struggling with immigration and they invented the ghetto model that we now see in Europe.

Australia? Have you read the news lately? lol

Who said it was perfection? Do their countries profit and prosper from all those immigrants rather than dragged down by it? It is obviously the former and thus it "works"

I wasn't the one who feels that immigrants need to mingle and mix in communities...I'm firmly in the "I don't care" "no interest" side.

But you made specific accusations about the moral character of your fellow countrymen. At least back those up. And while you're at it, say why you are still there.

 

[F#A#Oo]

Who said it was perfection? Do their countries profit and prosper from all those immigrants rather than dragged down by it? It is obviously the former and thus it "works"

You just moved the goal posts though on the discussion...you went from assimilation and integration and named North America and Australia as the countries of standard. Now it's about profit and prosperity? There isn't a country on earth that hasn't gained from immigration other than maybe Cuba or North Korea...

But you made specific accusations about the moral character of your fellow countrymen. At least back those up. And while you're at it, say why you are still there.

I was telling what I consider an amusing anecdote on how lust/love can drive a man to do crazy things.

I'm here because I have a business and family...

 

[Instigator]

You just moved the goal posts though on the discussion...you went from assimilation and integration and named North America and Australia as the countries of standard. Now it's about profit and prosperity? There isn't a country on earth that hasn't gained from immigration other than maybe Cuba or North Korea...

Wrong.

It was always about integration. It is the people I am arguing with who are afraid of assimilation and keep mentionning it. Pay closer attention.

For the record, only America has an assimilation model. The other immigration countries do not.

There isn't a country that hasn't gained from immigration?

Go to Jordan. Millions of Palestinians, millions of Iraqis and soon millions of Syrians. Small, poor country with far too many people flocking to its borders. They will probably pull through, but hundreds of thousands of people languishing in refugee camps is not much of an asset in the present.

How about Serbia? Millions of Albanians settle there during Ottoman times, relations are always tense with Serbs. Fast forward to 1999 and Kosovars (Albanians) declare themselves independent, taking away the traditional craddle of the Serb nation. Net loss for Serbia.

And how about Palestine? All those rich, Jewish immigrants sure paid off, heh?

 

[Terra Firma]

Al-Azhar declares the Muslim Brotherhood as "apostates" outside the fold of Islamic monotheism.
http://arabic.cnn.com/2013/middle_east/8/16/azhar.ikhwanIslam/index.html

They also say that their properties are forfeit - in fact, not just forfeit, but it is WAJIB for the state to their wealth!
http://tahrirnews.com/news/view.aspx?cdate=16082013&id=16a61013-5c39-478c-afc1-37251f2368c0

The reason? Because apparently the MB was violent against other Muslims...they even have the gall to cite sully a hadeeth by using that as some sort of misguided evidence.

Funny how it was the protesters who instigated violence against Morsi's government backed by the army and now the majority of dead are also the Ikhwan.

 

[dripdripsplash]

I've heard rumour that they are going for an outright ban on the Ikhwan. Wasn't that the same thing that happened in the 90's Algeria ?