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[lopaz]

I could be wrong here about what Warrior300 is implying, but it's obvious that most women in the West don't dress like that. However, even in Arabic countries, you will find women that I feel are inappropriated dressed.

The issue isn't the number of women that do so, but it is societies' attitude towards those that do.

It is frowned upon over here and sometimes encouraged over there.

Sometimes these "freedoms" cause a great deal of sexual harassment. Staff are hired according to the amount of visible cleavage during interviews. Rape is a huge issue in the West, or that is at least what I hear.

I honestly don't know if I can blame Western women for dressing inappropriately since it is obvious that it is something that is glamorized by the media and encouraged by Western society, at least on GAF... *points at posts*

Stop RIGHT there. Did you know in Pakistan until recently, and possibly to this day, a woman needed several male witnesses to confirm any rape story? That's essentially legalised rape. And let's not talk of the Islamic militia in Sudan who commit mass rapes on the populace. Don't ever suggest Islam does not have a rape problem.

edit- also, remember that story recently about the woman in Saudi (I think) who was raped, and nearly got flogged for being out with another man whilst the men who did it got more lenient punishments?

 

[WickedAngel]

Stop RIGHT there. Did you know in Pakistan until recently, and possibly to this day, a woman needed several male witnesses to confirm any rape story? That's essentially legalised rape. And let's not talk of the Islamic militia in Sudan who commit mass rapes on the populace. Don't ever suggest Islam does not have a rape problem.

We don't have that problem here.

...:lol He was the first person who came to mind when I read that.

 

[AmMortal]

No I didn't. I asked you how "Western" women were "forced" either to dress skantily or become an anorexic.

Forced is when the Media ( magazines, movies etc.), portray females as an object that should be used for commercialization. A number of the western girls will and do follow this resulting that what were talking about just now.

"Sex sells"

Prove me wrong.

I'm tired now, see you tommorow.

 

[Artie]

hmm.. I made 4 pages of perfect sense and when I was asked to show what I see as degrading by request then its an abmomination.

!?3 good pages!? + !?1 bad page!? ≠ !?4 good pages!?

 

[SleazyC]

I honestly don't know if I can blame Western women for dressing inappropriately since it is obvious that it is something that is glamorized by the media and encouraged by Western society, at least on GAF... *points at posts*

To some extent the media is a bit over-sexed but in the West women have the freedom to dress as they please for the most part. I may be making a blanket statement, and Warrior300 has stated that women also have a choice in their dress in many Middle Eastern countries, but from what I gather women would be ostracized if they dressed the same as their counterparts in the west.

Of course this could be a cultural thing and could have nothing to do with what Islam accepts or doesn't but saying that the West forces women to dress "slutty" is naive and a bit insulting.

 

[Hadji]

Stop RIGHT there. Did you know in Pakistan until recently, and possibly to this day, a woman needed several male witnesses to confirm any rape story? That's essentially legalised rape. And let's not talk of the Islamic militia in Sudan who commit mass rapes on the populace. Don't ever suggest Islam does not have a rape problem.

edit- also, remember that story recently about the woman in Saudi (I think) who was raped, and nearly got flogged for being out with another man whilst the men who did it got more lenient punishments?

What does this have to do with inappropriate attire?

 

[lopaz]

To some extent the media is a bit over-sexed but in the West women have the freedom to dress as they please for the most part. I may be making a blanket statement, and Warrior300 has stated that women also have a choice in their dress in many Middle Eastern countries, but from what I gather women would be ostracized if they dressed the same as their counterparts in the west.

Of course this could be a cultural thing and could have nothing to do with what Islam accepts or doesn't but saying that the West forces women to dress "slutty" is naive and a bit insulting.

To be fair, forced is a flexible term. Women may face discrimination for dressing certain ways, which is in a way forcing them, because certain modes of dress carry negative consequences.

 

[Septy]

Forced is when the Media ( magazines, movies etc.), portray females as an object that should be used for commercialization. A number of the western girls will and do follow this resulting that what were talking about just now.

"Sex sells"

Prove me wrong.

I'm tired now, see you tommorow.

That isn't what forced means at all. A number of these girls will choose to follow such examples, of their own free will. You made a claim stating that all Western girls MUST do so to get noticied. I don't understand how many times that has to be pointed out to you, including by a mod.

I also agree that sex sells. As for proof, you are the one making the claim the burden of proof is on you. You're making bigoted and unprovable claims.

 

[lopaz]

What does this have to do with inappropriate attire?

YOU linked inappropriate attire with the West's 'rape issue'. I'm saying that rape is endemic in Islamic countries too, and possibly more so because of disgusting rape laws, so I'm saying it's not to do with attire.

 

[BocoDragon]

There is nothing religious about anti-sexuality, repressing sexuality, so called "modesty" or anything like that. Oh, it has been enshrined in religious codes, but it's quite clear why men and society in general are distressed by the sexuality of women.

We are equipped with emotions of strict concern over the sexual activities of women in order to control whom they have offspring with. Women are guaranteed to have their own children, men are not, so men love to control women's sexual habits. Social influence is their only method to ensure paternity.

So we put ideas in their head to control their sexuality (like promoting "modesty", which is a word for hiding or restraining sexuality, or getting angry when they go astray and call them such concepts as "slut"). These types of ideas can be promoted through the generations by people who don't even remember the original impedus ("tradition"), and be promoted by children and other women who don't even understand the logic of it. We might even literally cover women up. It's all just to control the paternity of offspring. To ensure that all women will stay faithful by keeping them socially programmed, limiting what they can do.

Most populist religions contain tenants which appeal to common male urges of sexual control. Even non-religious men feel the same emotional urges that once led to these ideas that were enshrined in religion..... (I certainly desire control over my sexual partner.... in our society we call it "faithfulness") but don't let that fool you into thinking that this is anything but biological control.

 

[Ace 8095]

Forced is when the Media ( magazines, movies etc.), portray females as an object that should be used for commercialization. A number of the western girls will and do follow this resulting that what were talking about just now.

"Sex sells"

Prove me wrong.

I'm tired now, see you tommorow.

Like most posts involving religion, this post is devoid of any logic or reason. Instead of Warrior trying to prove his point, he simply states his false beliefs and challenges you to "prove me wrong". This is similar to his view on life. Instead of living his life by reason, logic, and personal experiences, he chooses to blindly follow the beliefs he was born into. There is no reasoning with people like these. They are unable to admit that what they have been told all there life might be wrong and find strength in their stupidity.

 

[Hadji]

YOU linked inappropriate attire with the West's 'rape issue'. I'm saying that rape is endemic in Islamic countries too, and possibly more so because of disgusting rape laws, so I'm saying it's not to do with attire.

You use the term "Islamic countries" rather loosely. Last time I checked, Sudan and Pakistan don't rule using Islamic law.

So, what in your opinion is the cause of the high rape rate in the States? I think that being under dressed doesn't really help. Your thoughts?

 

[lopaz]

You use the term "Islamic countries" rather loosely. Last time I checked, Sudan and Pakistan don't rule using Islamic law.

So, what in your opinion is the cause of the high rape rate in the States? I think that being under dressed doesn't really help. Your thoughts?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6148590.stm

"Until now rape cases were dealt with in Sharia courts. Victims had to have four male witnesses to the crime - if not they faced prosecution for adultery."

I don't think dress codes have anything to do with it. In Islamic countries like Sudan, where most women are not scantily clad, rape is a big problem.

 

[Ace 8095]

You use the term "Islamic countries" rather loosely. Last time I checked, Sudan and Pakistan don't rule using Islamic law.

So, what in your opinion is the cause of the high rape rate in the States? I think that being under dressed doesn't really help. Your thoughts?

To say that giving women the freedom to wear what they want is the main cause of rape is idiotic and has no statistical or scientific backing.

 

[Futureman]

You use the term "Islamic countries" rather loosely. Last time I checked, Sudan and Pakistan don't rule using Islamic law.

So, what in your opinion is the cause of the high rape rate in the States? I think that being under dressed doesn't really help. Your thoughts?

Care to provide some numbers showing high rape in the US? I honestly would be interested in seeing a comparison between countries.

 

[effzee]

I'm agnostic and as such I don't harbor any real animosity towards any specific faith.

Having said that, the one thing about Islam and its followers that bothers me is the notion that Islam itself is beyond criticism and that depicting Mohamed in a negative light is an unforgivable act.

Quite frankly, if I want to say "Mohamed can go fuck himself" then there's no way anyone can stop me. Equally, I have the right to criticise any deity/faith as I see fit and as such you have the right to criticise me in any matter you feel.

I am Muslim and I agree with you.

I am tired of Muslims not caring about their own actions but raising hell over stupid stuff.

I will give a example: I was the president of the MSA at my university (MSA means Muslim Students Association btw).

Around the time of the Danish cartoons controversy I held a meeting with our general Muslim body to discuss some of the events going on around the world. I could not understand why in the world ppl were protesting, rioting, burning, and killing because of the cartoons...BUT...not a single protest/riot was held in similar fashion against the civil war in Iraq or sectarian violence in Pakistan.

Most of the students were dumbfounded as well. I know its a condition that applies to pretty much every group of ppl (religion or non) that when someone from outside of the group critisizes the group they get very defensive. But someone from within the grp criticizes their own its perfectly ok.

Case in point here on GAF would be how whats considered American culture is ridiculed left and right but when they see someone make a blanket statement about America or the West they become defensive. So it really irritates me when I see Muslims not even bat a eye when 100 ppl die in Iraq because of Sectarian violence but then are willing to kill those who mock the Prophet (pbuh) or the religion.

Who cares if they mock? Let them. How does that affect anything you do?

One famous story of the Prophet (pbuh) is that on his way home ever afternoon a non-Muslim lady used to throw garbage on him when he passed by her house. Then for about a week she stopped and the Prophet (pbuh) actually went to her house to inquire why she stopped. Turned out she was sick and bed ridden, but seeing that the Prophet (pbuh) was concerned about her led to her eventual conversion to Islam. Perfect example of how Muslims should react to ppl who try to bait them into controversy.

But of course "WE" do not respond like that at all. I remember in response to the cartoons, some idiot rioters in Pakistan burned down a KFC (mmm chicken) since its a western business but these morons never thought of the PAKISTAN FAMILY operation the store. I believe one person was stuck inside and burned to death. WHO WAS REALLY AFFECTED? What did it even have to do with the cartoon? FUCKING IDIOTS. I love my country, culture, and religion but I swear these uneducated barbarians make me wonder about humanity.

 

[lopaz]

Care to provide some numbers showing high rape in the US? I honestly would be interested in seeing a comparison between countries.

I believe that in proportion to the population, USA is quite high in those figures. But it doesn't take into account stuff like the barbaric sharia rape laws that would cause women to never report it. There are only figures for reported rapes.

 

[effzee]

Like most posts involving religion, this post is devoid of any logic or reason. Instead of Warrior trying to prove his point, he simply states his false beliefs and challenges you to "prove me wrong". This is similar to his view on life. Instead of living his life by reason, logic, and personal experiences, he chooses to blindly follow the beliefs he was born into. There is no reasoning with people like these. They are unable to admit that what they have been told all there life might be wrong and find strength in their stupidity.

Dude what the hell are you talking about? Of course he does not mean physically forced.

But as a society here in the United States there is a certain norm regarding clothing and it applies to both genders. To deny that showing skin, women expected to dress sexy compared to guys, or women being seen more as sexual objects would be false. Not saying every woman here is that way or that they agree with it but there is a norm, and to go against it is sometimes not met openly.

To say that women in the East see that as degrading is true. They see it as putting women lower than men, whereas they see their head covering as protection. I know you may not agree with that but thats the POV. Now are women in the middle east FORCED to wear the scarf? Of course they are. Should they be? No. What does the religion say? Religion leaves it up to the woman but that is not always the case. You will always hear of a family/husband who enforces it. THEY ARE ALWAYS IN THE WRONG. And again this may not be physical force but the norm to which women conform to.

 

[lopaz]

Dude what the hell are you talking about? Of course he does not mean physically forced.

But as a society here in the United States there is a certain norm regarding clothing and it applies to both genders. To deny that showing skin, women expected to dress sexy compared to guys, or women being seen more as sexual objects would be false. Not saying every woman here is that way or that they agree with it but there is a norm, and to go against it is sometimes not met openly.

To say that women in the East see that as degrading is true. They see it as putting women lower than men, whereas they see their head covering as protection. I know you may not agree with that but thats the POV. Now are women in the middle east FORCED to wear the scarf? Of course they are. Should they be? No. What does the religion say? Religion leaves it up to the woman but that is not always the case. You will always hear of a family/husband who enforces it. THEY ARE ALWAYS IN THE WRONG. And again this may not be physical force but the norm to which women conform to.

As with any religion, I imagine there are numerous conflicting views on whether "Islam" justifies forcing headscarves. It's kind of too broad a concept to say things like "Islam says X"

 

[Hadji]

Care to provide some numbers showing high rape in the US? I honestly would be interested in seeing a comparison between countries.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/violent_crime/forcible_rape.html

Unfortunately, I don't have stats of other countries at the moment, I'll try searching deeper though.

"Until now rape cases were dealt with in Sharia courts. Victims had to have four male witnesses to the crime - if not they faced prosecution for adultery."

I don't think dress codes have anything to do with it. In Islamic countries like Sudan, where most women are not scantily clad, rape is a big problem.

Four male witnesses isn't necessary to report a rape case. I honestly, don't know if this report is accurate, but something tells me that something fishy is going on in Pakistan.

Also, Darfur is in at a state of war. It is clear that the war is the cause of the high rape rates over there.

Here's an interesting article I found:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4453820.stm

 

[lopaz]

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/violent_crime/forcible_rape.html

Unfortunately, I don't have stats of other countries at the moment, I'll try searching deeper though.



Four male witnesses isn't necessary to report a rape case. I honestly, don't know if this report is accurate, but something tells me that something fishy is going on in Pakistan.

Also, Darfur is in at a state of war. It is clear that the war is the cause of the high rape rates over there.

Here's an interesting article I found:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4453820.stm

Yah that attitude is unfortunately somewhat prevalent in the UK. But again I don't think it's to do with clothing.

 

[Hadji]

Sorry for double-postage.

I found a list of rape rates:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita

 

[Baron Doggystyle von Woof]

Yah that attitude is unfortunately somewhat prevalent in the UK. But again I don't think it's to do with clothing.

Ofcource it is. If you would ever commit such a crime, (which i think you never will) Would you choose a woman with less clothes on visible roundings and visible skin, or a woman who is dressed without skin? (Face and possibly hair is visible)

 

[Guled]

Warrior300, please stop posting and making Muslims look bad

 

[lopaz]

Ofcource it is. If you would ever commit such a crime, (which i think you never will) Would you choose a woman with less clothes on visible roundings and visible skin, or a woman who is dressed without skin? (Face and possibly hair is visible)

As I said, rape still happens in countries with covered women. Men are going to want to fuck, and maybe a culture that oppresses sexuality is more likely to have them committing such acts.

 

[Baron Doggystyle von Woof]

As I said, rape still happens in countries with covered women. Men are going to want to fuck, and maybe a culture that oppresses sexuality is more likely to have them committing such acts.

It has nothing to do with opressing sexuality, alot of men in the west can't get woman because there not socially capable or just not good looking enough. I agree a guy who wants sex will do it also on a person without showing much skin, but still it happens less on someone with open clothes. A guy needs only a little trigger which arouses him.

 

[lopaz]

It has nothing to do with opressing sexuality, alot of men in the west can't get woman because there not socially capable or just not good looking enough. I agree a guy who wants sex will do it also on a person without showing much skin, but still it happens less on someone with open clothes. A guy needs only a little trigger which arouses him.

Well what I was saying is that countries where revealing clothing is forbidden aren't going to have less rapes because of it. Maybe a woman who does reveal more is more at risk in whatever country it is, but so what? Does that mean she shouldn't do it?

 

[Baron Doggystyle von Woof]

Well what I was saying is that countries where revealing clothing is forbidden aren't going to have more rapes because of it. Maybe a woman who does reveal more is more at risk in whatever country it is, but so what? Does that mean she shouldn't do it?

Everyone is free to wear whatever they want. But this discussion was about of it is more risky or not.

 

[lopaz]

Everyone is free to wear whatever they want. But this discussion was about of it is more risky or not.

Was it? I think it started when hadjji claimed the west had a rape issue because of their dress codes

 

[Hadji]

As I said, rape still happens in countries with covered women. Men are going to want to fuck, and maybe a culture that oppresses sexuality is more likely to have them committing such acts.

Stats disagree. *shrugs*

Was it? I think it started when hadjji claimed the west had a rape issue because of their dress codes

England agrees with me on this one, says BBC article. =p

 

[lopaz]

Stats disagree. *shrugs*

As I said, those are only reported rapes. In a country where you can be prosecuted for accusing a man of rape without several witnesses, why the fuck would you report it?

 

[lopaz]

Stats disagree. *shrugs*



England agrees with me on this one, says BBC article. =p

Wait, you AGREE with the viewpoints in that article? I thought you were using it as an example of disgusting logic. It's not a woman's fault if she gets raped! You make me sick

 

[effzee]

Under what conditions can daily prayer be skipped? Such as if you are in an airplane, driving, tending to an emergency, etc... If you skip a prayer do you need to make it up or anything. Also, does the Muslim requirement for alms giving apply only to fellow Muslims, or is aid given to infidels as well?

Some conditions do apply you to skip prayer. Such as if you are sick or when females are on their periods.

Yes if you skip prayer you do need to make it up. Usually with the next prayer you include the previous one. But remember prayer is mostly about intention. If you intent to pray you can pretty much pray while sitting or standing.

I'm gonna go ahead and open up a can-o-worms and ask about the differences between Sunni and Shia muslims. How did all that get started and why do they seem to hate each other so much today?

Sunni and Shia differences are at the same time vast and minuscule. I am Sunni so I can not open speak for the Shias but the major difference between the two is that the Shia believe that after the Prophet (pbuh) passed away, the leader of the Muslim community was rightfully from his family (basically his lineage). They believe his Son-in-Law Ali (ra) should have been/was the rightful leader. The Shia also believe that the main reason he was the rightful successor was because the Prophet's (pbuh) bloodline was pure so thus it should have been Ali (ra) and then his sons and so on.

The Sunni's believe in what actually happened in which one of the closest friends/companions of the Prophet (pbuh) became the next leader. Now Sunnis do not believe in the bloodline being pure or the rightful succession but similarly if Ali (ra) had become the successor it would not have affected the faith. Since the Shia believe Ali (ra) was pure because of the blood line they believe he was infalliable. The Sunni's do not believe in this concept of infallible blood line, they believe you are good on merits. So the historical/political difference is/was that the two split over succession of power. Furthermore the Shia's believe in infallibility of the blood line which introduces a differences in faith.

But asides from that the pillars are the same. Prayer, belief in one God and his Prophets, paying charity, pilgrimage to Mecca, and fasting in Ramadan. The other differences come from the Law, meaning things like what is the exact time for the afternoon prayers which is considered minor and open to interpretation.

I hope that was clear. I know its a lot and I am omitting some of the other detail but basically the Sunni and Shia fight now because the Shia believe Ali (ra) should have been the leader/was the rightfull divine leader after the Prophet (pbuh). The Shia believe since he was denied his right to the throne, there was a conspiracy against him and the household of the Prophet(pbuh) by the close friends of the Prophet (pbuh) who seized power.

The Sunnis find this extremely offensive, especially because the Shias believe the friends of the Prophet (pbuh) were evil men while the Sunnis consider them against the greatest of followers/Muslims. It has led to history of Shias calling the companions evil while the Sunnis reacting violently and declaring Shias to be heretics. The Shias have been largely oppressed because they are the minority group and because Sunnis believe that by believing in the infallibility of the bloodline the Shias have corrupted the message of worshiping God alone and not humans.

I hope none of that was offensive to any Shias here, because I am Sunni so I am speaking from a Sunni perspective on the conflict today. Me personally I do not understand the violence but centuries old divisions, violence, and oppression still leads to anger and hate today. As a Sunni I do not believe in the Shia version of history, but am totally against the Sunnis in their condemnation of the Shias and the violence against them.

BTW if anyone is wondering Shia is arabic for "PARTY" as in group of followers. The term Shia really means "Followers of Ali" as in those who supported him as the rightful successor. Sunni is derived from Sunnat which means "example" or the example of the Prophet (pbuh). Of course both parties claim to follow the Prophet (pbuh) and the followers of Ali (ra) as Ali (ra) is considered to be one of the greatest Muslims in both parties.

 

[Baron Doggystyle von Woof]

As I said, those are only reported rapes. In a country where you can be prosecuted for accusing a man of rape without several witnesses, why the fuck would you report it?

Turkey is a democratic country with a big muslim population. The stats say the same about that country as well. And Turkey doesn't have those stupid laws as you stated.

 

[pewye]

warrior300, you are doing a great job.

 

[lopaz]

Turkey is a democratic country with a big muslim population. The stats say the same about that country as well. And Turkey doesn't have those stupid laws as you stated.

Isn't Turkey quite secular? I remember being there once, plenty of women were dressed in a western style

 

[Baron Doggystyle von Woof]

Isn't Turkey quite secular? I remember being there once, plenty of women were dressed in a western style

That's true. But still, for a large muslim country it has a really low rape number. I think it has to do with the idea of sex as a whole.

 

[Chrono]

Sex sells.

... OK?

Why the fuck is that bad? Sex has been selling since people could fuck. New technologies only make it look it's new or something.

Humans love beauty. So what? The image in western media of a beautiful woman isn't too different than ancient poetry about beautiful women.

Women are beautiful. It's a fact. Any lust for it is only a biological function and pretending it doesn't exist is just pathetic. That lust also doesn't go one way - it's just that in men the image is focused more on their ability to provide. Oh god! I feel so objectified! Am I nothing but a work mule for my family! Do I have no feelings! Waaah. :lol

 

[Hadji]

As I said, those are only reported rapes. In a country where you can be prosecuted for accusing a man of rape without several witnesses, why the fuck would you report it?

You clearly don't understand Islamic law. =)

Q 24:6 -

"As for those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing) by Allah that he is of those who speak the truth;"

Oh and just to make sure that you don't get me wrong, the verse applies to both men and women.

So, no, you don't necessarily need several witnesses.

 

[Kabouter]

Isn't Turkey quite secular? I remember being there once, plenty of women were dressed in a western style

Very secular, very divided for that reason too.

 

[Fio]

In free, democratic and open minded countries the women still hesitate to report sexual abuse, just imagine how they feel in these "islamic countries".

 

[HawkHarrelson]

there are a lot of retards in this thread


edit: also why must there be so many rules and restrictions to living on planet earth? for the first 200,000 years of human existence, there were no rules or restrictions... but then within the past 10,000 there have been so many

 

[Baron Doggystyle von Woof]

Sex sells.

... OK?

Why the fuck is that bad? Sex has been selling since people could fuck. New technologies only make it look it's new or something.

Humans love beauty. So what? The image in western media of a beautiful woman isn't too different than ancient poetry about beautiful women.

Women are beautiful. It's a fact. Any lust for it is only a biological function and pretending it doesn't exist is just pathetic. That lust also doesn't go one way - it's just that in men the image is focused more on their ability to provide. Oh god! I feel so objectified! Am I nothing but a work mule for my family! Do I have no feelings! Waaah. :lol

We all know sex sells. But in modern times it's so fake. Probably the reason why you react like this is that you need sex so much.

 

[lopaz]

That's true. But still, for a large muslim country it has a really low rape number. I think it has to do with the idea of sex as a whole.

Mmm I agree. I only disagree that dress codes are a major factor

 

[Baron Doggystyle von Woof]

Very secular, very divided for that reason too.

No, not really divided. It;s more of an politcal issue.

 

[BocoDragon]

Some conditions do apply you to skip prayer. Such as if you are sick or when females are on their periods.

Yes if you skip prayer you do need to make it up. Usually with the next prayer you include the previous one. But remember prayer is mostly about intention. If you intent to pray you can pretty much pray while sitting or standing.



Sunni and Shia differences are at the same time vast and minuscule. I am Sunni so I can not open speak for the Shias but the major difference between the two is that the Shia believe that after the Prophet (pbuh) passed away, the leader of the Muslim community was rightfully from his family (basically his lineage). They believe his Son-in-Law Ali (ra) should have been/was the rightful leader. The Shia also believe that the main reason he was the rightful successor was because the Prophet's (pbuh) bloodline was pure so thus it should have been Ali (ra) and then his sons and so on.

The Sunni's believe in what actually happened in which one of the closest friends/companions of the Prophet (pbuh) became the next leader. Now Sunnis do not believe in the bloodline being pure or the rightful succession but similarly if Ali (ra) had become the successor it would not have affected the faith. Since the Shia believe Ali (ra) was pure because of the blood line they believe he was infalliable. The Sunni's do not believe in this concept of infallible blood line, they believe you are good on merits. So the historical/political difference is/was that the two split over succession of power. Furthermore the Shia's believe in infallibility of the blood line which introduces a differences in faith.

But asides from that the pillars are the same. Prayer, belief in one God and his Prophets, paying charity, pilgrimage to Mecca, and fasting in Ramadan. The other differences come from the Law, meaning things like what is the exact time for the afternoon prayers which is considered minor and open to interpretation.

I hope that was clear. I know its a lot and I am omitting some of the other detail but basically the Sunni and Shia fight now because the Shia believe Ali (ra) should have been the leader/was the rightfull divine leader after the Prophet (pbuh). The Shia believe since he was denied his right to the throne, there was a conspiracy against him and the household of the Prophet(pbuh) by the close friends of the Prophet (pbuh) who seized power.

The Sunnis find this extremely offensive, especially because the Shias believe the friends of the Prophet (pbuh) were evil men while the Sunnis consider them against the greatest of followers/Muslims. It has led to history of Shias calling the companions evil while the Sunnis reacting violently and declaring Shias to be heretics. The Shias have been largely oppressed because they are the minority group and because Sunnis believe that by believing in the infallibility of the bloodline the Shias have corrupted the message of worshiping God alone and not humans.

I hope none of that was offensive to any Shias here, because I am Sunni so I am speaking from a Sunni perspective on the conflict today. Me personally I do not understand the violence but centuries old divisions, violence, and oppression still leads to anger and hate today. As a Sunni I do not believe in the Shia version of history, but am totally against the Sunnis in their condemnation of the Shias and the violence against them.

BTW if anyone is wondering Shia is arabic for "PARTY" as in group of followers. The term Shia really means "Followers of Ali" as in those who supported him as the rightful successor. Sunni is derived from Sunnat which means "example" or the example of the Prophet (pbuh). Of course both parties claim to follow the Prophet (pbuh) and the followers of Ali (ra) as Ali (ra) is considered to be one of the greatest Muslims in both parties.

Whoa.. thank you for your Sunni perspective. I have heard the differences from a Shia and naturally, I had a different impression of some events. (Rashomon style)

 

[Chrono]

Oh and Warrior300, if you're so against non-covered women why the fuck did you have pictures of models in your avatar before?

 

[Hadji]

Wait, you AGREE with the viewpoints in that article? I thought you were using it as an example of disgusting logic. It's not a woman's fault if she gets raped! You make me sick

Gah. You know what I mean. <__<

It's the rapists fault first and foremost.

 

[John Bombo]

The problem in many Muslim countries is that none of them truly follow Islam teaching.

Islam is all about mercy and modesty. But look at the leaders in these countries! They live in luxurious palace and some are among the world richest guys in the world. How did they earn all this money? And at the same time, their people live in total misery. They enforce strict laws, depriving most men and women of their rights.

And how do they achieve such an amazing things? They say it's god laws.

Last time I checked(in the Qur'an), i didn't read women weren't allowed to ride a bicycle, drive a car, have a job. It didn't say that a woman can't choose her husband. It do not say that a woman has to be more covered than Dark Vador. They are no such things as honor killings, female circumcision (hopefully it isn't done in most countries).

And the most incredible achievement is how they can shut up political opponents, journalists or anyone who thinks a little differently. Some are thrown in jails. Others disappear or are killed. Hey, they don't even try to make their fake elections (if there are elections) look real.

So don't be shocked if people in terrible situations take the extremists way. They don't have any other choice. The guys who fought for freedom and democracy are either in jails or killed.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

Turkey is a democratic country with a big muslim population. The stats say the same about that country as well. And Turkey doesn't have those stupid laws as you stated.

Oh Democracy, when will you have a definitive....definition...