Official Xbox Live Arcade Thread
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Segata Sanshiro
Member
arne said:
Maybe OnkelC can take me on as an apprentice?
Son of Godzilla
Banned
What bet is this?
arne said:
I gotta say this is similar to the attitude that MS took with Xbox. The attitude of hey we got better stuff, we're better, rah rah rah, etc..and the PS2 handed your ass to you. BTW I don't own a PS2 and own an Xbox.
Consumers don't sit around and say yeah XBLA is awesome cause I can compare high scores with my buddies. Consumers see the following...over the last three weeks I can download Rally X and Ms Pacman from XBLA and over the last three weeks I can download a bunch VC games. They see that in a month and a half the Wii has almost as many games to download as XBLA over the last year.
No doubt XBLA's orginal content and online capabilities blow the VC out of the water. In terms of volume, selection, and choice the VC looks to be running away with it (36 titles for Q1 alone). How many will XBLA release...10 maybe? General consumers don't care that they are ROMS and that the content is "original" heck many of the games on VC will either be games a lot of people have never played before so it's new to them.
I've got 3200 live points that I want to spend but at the rate things are going Xbox720 will be out before I spend the points. I want XBLA to be great I want spend money on XBLA. MS is dropping the ball on this one.
Segata Sanshiro
Member
arne said:
/runs arne's post through the NeoGAF translator
ARNE! How could you say that about my mother? SHE'S A SAINT!
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
maynerd said:
I do, and I'm a consumer. Face facts, maynerd. Not everyone is like you. What XBLA offers, and the fact that it has certain things required across the board, appeals to some segment of the 360's user base. Sure, when I get a Wii I'll be downloading a ton of VC games, but in my mind they're just as gimped as any other non-Live title. And that's fine. I don't expect every other console to offer the same experience as another's. That's the reason different consoles exist.
The problem is that, on fundamental level, XBLA games are probably the hardest games to certify on the planet. They have to be prepared for WORLDWIDE GLOBAL RELEASE from Day One. That means like eighteen billion languages, all kinds of other compatibility issues, and then, of course, all the other bug testing. It doesn't surprise me that bugs still make it through on Marble Blast because it probably took at least a full work day to localize the game into Croatian.
So, in closing, obviously MS has GOTTEN THE MESSAGE. But they've also decided to make XBLA a WORLDWIDE DISTRIBUTION CENTER. One of them is at cross purposes with the other. But one of them also has a much greater opportunity for profit. Will consumers leave XBLA in droves? Unlikely. If there's no good games, no one will buy them, but no one in their right mind is going to skip out on Alien Hominid HD just because they're dissatisfied with XBLA's approach. Who knows how much Namco's classic titles sell worldwide? They probably do pretty well, all things told. Probably turn a decent profit.
But look at the games that take the longest to get certified. How long would it take Pac Man to get localized in a dozen languages? A few days? How long would it take to localize a game like Robo Blitz in just one?
I could be way off here and find out that they don't do any localization for any Arcade title. In which case you can just ignore all this.
Son of Godzilla
Banned
I think MS is too dedicated to making XBLA a true arcade. They are even replicating the crappy nickel machines that collect dust in the corner and are only played once people run out of quarters.
BenjaminBirdie said:
I know not everyone is like me. Actually I'm probably more like you. I appreciate the high scores, the online capabilities, original titles, basically everything that XBLA offers. My comments were from the viewpoint of general consumers.
The problem is the release schedule. 1 game a week is really slow considering the content and the quality level of game. The Xbox 360 on average releases more than 1 game a week for FULLY realized games not just 50MB arcade games. How on earth is this even possible?
Unless they just don't have that many people on board or that want to make XBLA games, the programming is too difficult (seems strange since MS is touting that XBLA is easy to program for), or the certification process is too time consuming.
I don't know if the games are available worldwide on day one or not or if all of the same games are even available in every country but X360 is available in 37 countries and I would imagine many of those speak english. Sure there is localization required, I get that.
Maybe my expectations are just too high for XBLA. I should just chalk it up as another over promise under deliver item from MS.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
maynerd said:
A) Smaller Teams.
B) Regional, Not Multiregional, Releases.
arne said:
I doubt chess and checkers were in development for over a year. However as a competing casual games portal that MS touted as something that will broaden the Xbox's appeal beyond it's core base of users the fact that it's taken over a year to get such casual friendly games up on Live and that they expect consumers to pay for them is just laughable.
What's so hard to understand, the only difference between dumping a Pac-Man or any other fundamentally single player game and the respective version on XBLA is HD, Leaderboards, and Achievements. Extraneous features that don't really put a whole lot of polish on those old dinosaurs. The only difference is unlike Nintendo who can actually just dump a ROM, on XBLA devs are forced to add these MS mandated features and jump through other hoops that cause such waits for titles like Pac Man.
I don't know if Ben Birdie actually knows what the hell he's talking about but assuming titles do need to be prepped for worldwide simultaneous release. Doubt that's true with Yie Air Kung Fu being a Japanese exclusive, regardless the worldwide distribution center is not an advantage or an excuse, it's a setback. Assuming that's true we have butt**** countries with hardly any broadband penetration much less a substantially 360 installed base holding back releases for the US and other major territories? That's stupid when the majority of XBLA's sales are in the States.
Regardless the position has weakened so quickly cause of what Sony and Nintendo have accomplished with VC and PSN in such a short time. A steady stream of retro titles on Wii along with Sony making deals with publishers so they can make in house online remakes of their classics. More than anything competition weakens MS position simply cause XBLA hasn't been that impressive and while there's always good stuff in the pipe users have to wait through weeks of mediocre at best releases before they actually see those titles.
Uno Ill Nino
Banned
Son of Godzilla said:
No, cuz if they were, we'd have some more arcade games that people WANT to play. Street Fighter 3, Daytona USA, The Grid, etc. Not these moldy-ass nickel games that have been put on 10 different compilation discs already.
Uno Ill Nino
Banned
D3VI0US said:
Well, good thing I bought that hard-drive then, huh? I mean I'd hate to fill it up with games I want to play. Its much better left empty. Gotta make sure I have room for more gamerpics and themes, right? *rolleyes*
D3VI0US said:
maybe we're spending too much time listening to the message boards then, because nobody on here is exactly making waves for chess or checkers...
and I think that might be precisely the point. I think the team is listening to what people want, and right now, given the install base, that might not be a priority.
or who knows. but I can tell you this much, if chess comes out right now, even as a second release as anything else, I'll be laughed all the way to OA.
D3VI0US said:
so even though it's "jumping through hoops" it sounds like you agree that whether it's "polish" or not, it's still apples and oranges or, to put it specifically, it's dumping a ROM vs. additional functionality (regardless of your opinion on whether it's worth it).
D3VI0US said:
a) Ben took a guess. not a bad piece of conjecture and may ultimately be true.
b) Regardless of how you personally value markets outside of the US, it would be ignorant for a platform holder with a "worldwide" install base to see it as otherwise.
D3VI0US said:
Tell me, what about PSN is so impressive that it currently competes with XBLA on the level you claim it does? I don't see it personally.
goldenpp72
Member
The big problem arne, is that microsoft seems to think they can only release one game a week, otherwise the sales will die, but thats not true, people will eventually buy a game that interest them.
I expected 30-40 more games last year then I got, I seem to recall microsoft listing tons and tons of 2006 content that has not happened and doesnt even have a date, the fact microsoft MISSES a week or makes a cloning clyde picture pack, a kameo uno deck, a patch for texas holdem, etc, an acceptable release for XBLA wednesday is insanely stupid.
If ms pac man and worms both released this week, id buy both, I honestly think microsoft needs to divide releases in markets, a retro release, a casual (checkers/etc) and an original title (worms hd/ alien hominid, etc) all in a week IF the games are ready.
I Just get the feeling microsoft has many titles done and waiting, but for some stupid reason, we have to wait for them. It wouldnt be so bad if something awesome released every week, but when stupid games like rally X or even worse, a damn uno deck are all that gets released for a week, it really shows how horrible microsoft has taken this service so far.
Im sure its hard, but microsoft promised more games last year then one game a week would have been able to accomplish, the fact they missed some weeks is just outright insulting.
I expected 30-40 more games last year then I got, I seem to recall microsoft listing tons and tons of 2006 content that has not happened and doesnt even have a date, the fact microsoft MISSES a week or makes a cloning clyde picture pack, a kameo uno deck, a patch for texas holdem, etc, an acceptable release for XBLA wednesday is insanely stupid.
If ms pac man and worms both released this week, id buy both, I honestly think microsoft needs to divide releases in markets, a retro release, a casual (checkers/etc) and an original title (worms hd/ alien hominid, etc) all in a week IF the games are ready.
I Just get the feeling microsoft has many titles done and waiting, but for some stupid reason, we have to wait for them. It wouldnt be so bad if something awesome released every week, but when stupid games like rally X or even worse, a damn uno deck are all that gets released for a week, it really shows how horrible microsoft has taken this service so far.
Im sure its hard, but microsoft promised more games last year then one game a week would have been able to accomplish, the fact they missed some weeks is just outright insulting.
PSN isn't limited by this ridiculous 50mb cap. Something that should have been thrown to the wayside mere months into the XBLA's lifespan. Also there appears to be a lot more activity over PSN announcements right now, as well as the pretty big publicity stunt that is Jaffe's name plastered over an upcoming project.
It just seems like XBLA is treated as more of an 'icing on the top' deal rather than a fully fledged focussed feature. I guess one thing to blame is that MS has installed this 'weekly' illusion in Live users that expect something on the dot every 7 days, and then there being only 1 thing a week, making the 'update' weeks seem even more infuriating because they seem to be in place of actual games. Combine this with the almost psychotic secrecy that seems to surround a specific weeks release, and you get a bundle of frustration.
I can certainly see a good future with the XNA initiative, but in the short term and I'd wager this year at least, it will just seem like XBLA is sorely lagging in comparison to PSN right out of the gate and even to those misguided enough to think plonking roms up on a server every monday is an incredible feat. It's still content though to be fair.
But really, I want to see a journalist sit down with whoever it is that has full executive control over the XBLA program, and hard press the 50mb issue and the utterly stupid secrecy. Because to onlookers it seems like nothing is giving at all.
It just seems like XBLA is treated as more of an 'icing on the top' deal rather than a fully fledged focussed feature. I guess one thing to blame is that MS has installed this 'weekly' illusion in Live users that expect something on the dot every 7 days, and then there being only 1 thing a week, making the 'update' weeks seem even more infuriating because they seem to be in place of actual games. Combine this with the almost psychotic secrecy that seems to surround a specific weeks release, and you get a bundle of frustration.
I can certainly see a good future with the XNA initiative, but in the short term and I'd wager this year at least, it will just seem like XBLA is sorely lagging in comparison to PSN right out of the gate and even to those misguided enough to think plonking roms up on a server every monday is an incredible feat. It's still content though to be fair.
But really, I want to see a journalist sit down with whoever it is that has full executive control over the XBLA program, and hard press the 50mb issue and the utterly stupid secrecy. Because to onlookers it seems like nothing is giving at all.
goldenpp72
Member
The 50 meg limit needs to be there until microsoft can make a bigger harddrive I think, because if there is no limit, then devs will probably be less inclined to compress and preserve.
Maybe a structure of reason, say a 400 meg limit for dreamcast style titles or something, but for games like frogger keep the 50 meg cap.
But really.. id much rather microsoft just let devs release games when they want to, and do what they want, only being forced to adhere to the standards of achievements, leaderboards, and that sort of thing.. microsoft needs to not be the controlling daddy.
Maybe a structure of reason, say a 400 meg limit for dreamcast style titles or something, but for games like frogger keep the 50 meg cap.
But really.. id much rather microsoft just let devs release games when they want to, and do what they want, only being forced to adhere to the standards of achievements, leaderboards, and that sort of thing.. microsoft needs to not be the controlling daddy.
goldenpp72 said:
this is patently wrong.
goldenpp72 said:
somewhere in this thread I mentioned some things that are being worked on, consistency being one of them. taking that into account, I think you'll come to realize that MS understands an "acceptable release" is a game title.
goldenpp72 said:
bolded line #1 is completely wrong. you'll just have to trust me on that, but MS is not sitting on any titles.
bolded line #2, I'm sorry you feel things that are out of developers, publishers and MS's hands is insulting. are you insulted every time any given game shifts it's timeline? (other than Duke Nukem 3D). disappointed, I can understand.
goldenpp72
Member
So those qoutes with microsoft (I think at least) saying they have insert amount of games in the pipeline and can release them when needed werent true? Are you telling me ms. pacman JUST finished last week and is finally done and ready?
I mean.. wasnt ms pacman a free game included in the original xboxes XBLA service?
I mean.. wasnt ms pacman a free game included in the original xboxes XBLA service?
Hey arne, I know you're just doing your job as an official rep here trying to clear up misunderstandings and inaccurate information, and I think most of us here respect that. But honestly I think certain things have reached a point where the more you reply, the worse it gets. Most of us understand that it's not a MS conspiricy to hold anything back and if anything it's just a bunch of ****ups that are making things unpleasent for everyone.
The more you feed the flames, the harder it is to read the XBLA thread these days though. Guys, can't we just move the discussion on to more productive stuff instead of "hey let's bait the MS rep and since he's responding let's use him as an avenue to run down MS some more!" please? When MS screws up, pitchforks and all are welcome but I'm failing to see how dragging this current discussion on is going to change anything or make this thread more informative...
The more you feed the flames, the harder it is to read the XBLA thread these days though. Guys, can't we just move the discussion on to more productive stuff instead of "hey let's bait the MS rep and since he's responding let's use him as an avenue to run down MS some more!" please? When MS screws up, pitchforks and all are welcome but I'm failing to see how dragging this current discussion on is going to change anything or make this thread more informative...
goldenpp72
Member
Im not trying to be an ass, its just that right now I see all these good things happening for the vc/psn services, yet xbla has been around for years, it just seems like by not the xbla service should be like the ps2 of these services, but it looks to be more like a gamecube in terms of how many releases are happening.
Maybe the vc/psn will dwindle over time, but I see those services growing pretty fast and microsoft letting their large lead slip almost instantly.
Maybe the vc/psn will dwindle over time, but I see those services growing pretty fast and microsoft letting their large lead slip almost instantly.
Son of Godzilla
Banned
arne said:
Honestly if there was consistency with the quality level of releases people should be willing to take anything as an acceptable release. The reason people get upset over stuff like Uno decks and terribly old arcade games isn't because they aren't the hyped up IPs that everyone knows will eventually sometime make it out, it's because they just don't want them.
The entire "XBLA Wednesday" concept caters to the hardcore, or at least those moderately in the know. To make this sort of advertising that caters to them and then go and release stuff they don't really care about is insulting. I'm not saying this stuff doesn't have an audience, I'm sure it does, I just really doubt it's the kind of person who would be looking forward to seeing what the Wednesday release is.
Beer Monkey
Member
arne said:next time I'll just jump in and tell goldenpp72 to shut his cakehole!
said with respect mr. jaffe, I swear
:lol :lol :lol
goldenpp72
Member
Exactly, I imagine someone who finds out about ms pacman probably finds out later, the people waiting until the late hours of tuesday (aka early wednesday) are not the ones generally waiting for rally X with baited breath.
Now I plan to buy ms pacman if this is a good version, I adored that game, but its just been a release of crap lately so I was hoping something im dying for, like one of the promised 2006 titles, would release.
Honestly I still think microsoft should make a calender in the dashboard with ESTIMATE dates, and a little disclaimer saying these dates are not final, just so we can know where microsofts heart and desires are.
If I saw worms was planned to release in 2 weeks, even if it didnt make it, id not even be annoyed because at least it wouldnt be in limbo, the most frustrating thing about xbla is that we dont even have a gauge of when games SHOULD be out, they just suddenly pop out in a release note 2 days before the game hits.
Now I plan to buy ms pacman if this is a good version, I adored that game, but its just been a release of crap lately so I was hoping something im dying for, like one of the promised 2006 titles, would release.
Honestly I still think microsoft should make a calender in the dashboard with ESTIMATE dates, and a little disclaimer saying these dates are not final, just so we can know where microsofts heart and desires are.
If I saw worms was planned to release in 2 weeks, even if it didnt make it, id not even be annoyed because at least it wouldnt be in limbo, the most frustrating thing about xbla is that we dont even have a gauge of when games SHOULD be out, they just suddenly pop out in a release note 2 days before the game hits.
joaomgcd said:It isn't? I just thought that, since Major Nelson already put it up on his blog and all, it was already out. I don't have my 360 right now (it's beeing replaced again), so I have no way to check, sorry about the confusion.
The Major simply got confused and posted the update a day early. He threw up an edit after a little, but not before I made a frantic dash to the Xbox Live Marketplace and came away disappointed.
goldenpp72 said:
that "calendar" existed for a short while. and boy do you guys have a short memory on the stink and ridicule that was raised when something didn't make a date. rock and a hard place.
but i've said it before and I'll say it again, this is one thing we're trying to figure out how to best present and keep everybody (you, developers, publishers, XBLA team) happy.
(referring to the suggestion that releasing more than 1 game a week would not hurt sales).arne said:
Do you have some evidence to back up this statement? Such as sales figures for games released simultaneously being dramatically lower than figures for games released on their own.
If I recall, the 2 highest selling games on live arcade, Marble Blast and Geometry Wars were simultaneous launch releases, which suggests that your statement might be patently wrong.
goldenpp72
Member
I was only annoyed once arne.. when street fighter 2 had a half year delay, otherwise little delays dont bother me as long as I know a general idea of what is being attempted.
It would also calm my consipiracy theory that microsoft holds games off to only release one per week on wednesday and thats it..
It would also calm my consipiracy theory that microsoft holds games off to only release one per week on wednesday and thats it..
soul creator
Member
monoRAIL said:
I thought he was saying that it's patently wrong that MS thinks that. or something.
arne said:
Damn right you are if you're letting idiots like us determine you strategy but that's not true cause you guys aren't really listening to us either. The consumer that wants chess or checkers doesn't prowl the boards, a game like that is a gateway entry for them to the 360. Still you can't expect people to pay for a game they can play for free elsewhere either but I'm sure whoever makes it will turn a profit.
Yeah it is added functionality, regardless of how insignificant, I'll give you that. Have fun adding that functionality while other console's libraries expand and blow past your offerings.
MS doesn't seem to have any problems prioritizing the rollout of the Live service itself to countries by some kind of "value" metric whatever it may be. So why not do the same with digital games, I mean it's the case with regular game releases anyways so regardless of the "worldwide" install base it's certainly not equal even with other downloads on Live marketplace itself such as movies and demos so I don't see why this wouldn't be the case with Arcade titles.
PSN seems to have a more open pricing structure, Lemmings for $3 is a lot more attractive that Lemmings for $5, 40% more in fact. Not all games are created equal, it's also an issue with VC as well. Geometry Wars is a great buy for $5, Asteroids not so much.
PSN has potential for bigger better downloads. Tekken 5 DR isn't possible on XBLA in it's current form cause it's 500ish MB. Think about all the great games this limit is depriving users of, this won't be the case with PSN. The Gripshift devs were trying to get it on XBLA, it's now on PSN and not XBLA, I'm inclined to believe it's more a case of MS imposed limitations than a preference of PSN over XBLA. If Tekken and GTHD weren't enough we're going to see SOE remaking 6 Midway titles for PSN all with online play. So they'll be feature rich apples to apples comparisons for those titles. Also the SF2 remake for PSN in the EGM rumors is exciting.
Sony is actively seeking out and actively developing content for PSN. As I said SOE is handling the Midway games, they have multiple game deals in the work for the fl0W guys, there's Calling All Cars. Not to say MS isn't but it's gonna take more than Hold'em and Uno to convince me MS is serious about making content for their own Arcade initiative.
Sony has a backlog that they can dump. While I agree with you about the apples to oranges comparison it's not that simple cause all XBLA has is oranges. PSN will have apples and oranges due to huge PS1 and PS2 backlogs that are sure to get nostalgic chumps to buy in. In fact they've started doing so already, it's just the games aren't working on the PS3 yet, only PSP. That's going to change in the future, don't know when, but Sony certainly has let us know it's coming soon. When I'm starving and your out of oranges I'd take an apple but you don't carry apples so I don't eat and get cranky.
Open Source
Banned
How about this:
- MS doesn't promise new content every Wednesday, because that is out of their control
- Publishers don't promise specific release dates for their content until that content is approved, because that is out of their control until then
- Neo-GAFers don't whine about either of the above
- MS funds the rest of my XBLA game, so that we can all spend our time playing it instead of conducting these dreary debates
- MS doesn't promise new content every Wednesday, because that is out of their control
- Publishers don't promise specific release dates for their content until that content is approved, because that is out of their control until then
- Neo-GAFers don't whine about either of the above
- MS funds the rest of my XBLA game, so that we can all spend our time playing it instead of conducting these dreary debates
D3VI0US said:
gripshift, last I heard was the diplomatic "we're exploring other digital download areas." no specifics. still.
there's lots of unannounced stuff too you know about stuff from MS or stuff that MS has pursued. remember one of the top selling games comes from Bizarre Creations, so it's not just Uno and whatever. you just make it sound like MS is sitting on their butts while Sony is looking for content. MS is looking for content, Sony just needs to make a lot of noise right now and they're being heard -- yet, they're still somewhat experiencing the same things XBLA is... delays, "sparse" releases, etc. right now.
you can't bring in the GTHD demo into the discussion imho. That's still a demo of what might have been a full game and possibly is part one. Then well have to compare that to the list of demos available on XBLM (GTHD vs. Lost Planet E3), but this is an Arcade discussion.
at the bottom of it all. I know what you're saying though, it's a fact not lost on the team.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
D3VI0US said:
O, would that MS had developers doing the same!
They're beyond any doubt doing the same thing in just as many interesting ways. The cap isn't standing in their way of bringing esoteric board games with a rabid fan base to XBLA. There's games like Mutant Storm Empire and Castle Crashers that are just as compelling as fl0w and CAC.
You keep talking as if Sony is the only one actively persuing development opportunities for PSN and neglecting to remember that MS has been doing the same thing for the past year and beyond. Mutant Storm Empire has been in development since the first one dropped on Launch Day. I don't think Sony has any significant leg up over MS at all in terms of persuing development.
I have another important suggestion! Please obey:
Don't release things like card packs or patches on XBLA Wednesday unless there's a game to go with it. I'm not saying don't release those things, but rather just release them on a day that hasn't been PR'd by MS as "XBLA release" day. I doubt there'd have been half as much whining if the Hold'Em patch came out on a friday, and XBLA simply had "no game this week".
Also, and this isn't Arcade specific although maybe it is and I know people have bitched about this in the past, but downloading a demo for an XBLA game shouldn't put that game (and unachieved gamerpoints) in my Games list. Especially with the automatic downloads turned on.
Don't release things like card packs or patches on XBLA Wednesday unless there's a game to go with it. I'm not saying don't release those things, but rather just release them on a day that hasn't been PR'd by MS as "XBLA release" day. I doubt there'd have been half as much whining if the Hold'Em patch came out on a friday, and XBLA simply had "no game this week".
Also, and this isn't Arcade specific although maybe it is and I know people have bitched about this in the past, but downloading a demo for an XBLA game shouldn't put that game (and unachieved gamerpoints) in my Games list. Especially with the automatic downloads turned on.
meltpotato
Member
rs7k said:
i'll also buy pretty much anything Treasure puts on XBLM
arne said:
I know there's plenty of good stuff in the pipe, the grass is always greener. MS doesn't own Bizzare Creations, they're publishing a next gen game with Sega that is multiplatform if I'm not mistaken. However may they do own the Geometry Wars IP in which case that would make another great XBLA game for MS. However I can cut Sony some slack cause they're just ramping up the service. Live is one of MS' strengths and something they've been working on for years, for PSN to just come out of the gate and be comprable to XBLA is MS' advantage eroding not a failure on Sony's part to deliver. I know you know, I know it's not lost, I know some things are out of your hands, but to me it just seems like MS isn't always as nimble as they need to be and the competition has exceeded my low expectations.
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