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OG Xbox Appreciation and Lack of Emulation Thread of the big black box of doom

R

RaikuHebi

Banned
I'm surprised at the lack of emulation. Shouldn't it have been theoretically easier to emulate than PS2?

Is it a matter of the larger PS2 market meaning that got more focus?
 
S

Salvor.Hardin

Banned
I know I'm alone on this but I really enjoyed Brute Force. It was a fine game.

Jade Empire was fucking great as well.

Goddamn I forgot just how good the Xbox exclusive lineup was.

bishopcruz said:
I was thinking that earlier today. It really was the end of the Sega line in many ways. Sega had great games on the thing, they just sold like absolute shit. They were creative as hell.
Click to expand...

Not only did it carry the flag for the Sega games, the Duke was also the spritual successor of the Dreamcast controller and Live pushed Sega's vision of online gaming as far as possible that gen.
 
B

bishopcruz

Member
Baron_Calamity said:
360 compatibility kinda sucked in quality and selection. While i know it wasn't possible due to licensing issues, I wish they didn't do a half as backwards compatibility and released a smaller redesigned OG Xbox.
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That was never going to happen. The Nvidia deal pretty much killed any chance they had at keeping the system on the market longer than they did. That and the design of the thing in general. The xbox was MADE to lose money. MS owned none of the designs for the chips, and the hard drive itself was a huge additional cost at the time. There was a reason that the 360 made it optional, they wanted the ability in their successor to eventually get it down to $99 without hemorrhaging money. I have no idea how much the Xbox lost per unit sold, but it had to have been a LOT, especially with the constant price cuts that gen.

People can argue you could get more for your money with a PC these days than say an X1 or a PS4, and there is an argument to be made, back then PCs were still a hell of a lot more expensive, and the Xbox really did give you access to a bunch of PC games for a lot less money.
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
^yes, please play Shenmue II with subs if you can, dub if not

good OP, cool to see Orta, JSRF and ones i missed like Gun Valkyrie, i still want to play that one, and ToeJam & Earl III one day so bad. i too passed on the xbox - took it for a halo-box, and this one weird friend of mine was all about it but mostly pushed WRPGs which i thought looked boring back then, haha. i went back years ago to play through the better bioware stuff - KOTOR 1 & 2, Jade Empire etc, definitely some gems there but it's a bummer that both MS let the BC scene die out & the emulation one never filled the gap, at least last i checked.

Salvor.Hardin said:
I'm baffled whenever people ask for a second Dreamcast. That's exactly what the Xbox was - Dreamcast 2.
Click to expand...

no, let's not do this - building your network on the bones of Seganet & getting one (excellent) section of their 3rd party lineup alone do not a DC make. i don't mean to knock the OG xbox's library in its own thread, because it's admittedly far better than i gave it credit for during its life cycle, but i still await a lineup like the DC got in its short life. the messiah has not yet returned

bkfount said:
Halo got ported to PC. Many big titles did get BC support on the 360, even though it's pretty awful.
Click to expand...

yeah, KOTOR was laggy and i quit on JSRF for the graphic glitches (title deserves a proper play i figure), thankfully Orta plays smooth as butter as far as i'm seeing
 
Fox Mulder

Fox Mulder

Member
RaikuHebi said:
I'm surprised at the lack of emulation. Shouldn't it have been theoretically easier to emulate than PS2?

Is it a matter of the larger PS2 market meaning that got more focus?
Click to expand...

Halo got ported to PC. Many big titles did get BC support on the 360, even though it's pretty awful.
 
BrokenSymmetry

BrokenSymmetry

Member
This thread makes me sad... From 2001 through 2007 Xbox was a brand to love, with amazing games. That great period ended with the release of Halo3 and PGR4. After that, Mattrick became the Xbox boss, and the magic was lost.
 
S

SonyToo!™

Member
IrishNinja said:
yeah, KOTOR was laggy and i quit on JSRF for the graphic glitches (title deserves a proper play i figure), thankfully Orta plays smooth as butter as far as i'm seeing
Click to expand...

Yeah even the PAL version of Orta ran really well too, the problem is that there is a bug that causes a crash while the end of Stage 3 cutscene is playing.

Shame a SEGA employee or a Durante figure doesn't fix that as it seems like such a trifle thing.

Ninja Gaiden Black is another smooth as hell game, probably plays better than even OG Xbox.

EDIT there is supposed to be a level select cheat that opens up after 15 hours of play of Orta, would be nice if someone could upload a save with that unlocked.
 
B

bishopcruz

Member
IrishNinja said:
^yes, please play Shenmue II with subs if you can, dub if not

good OP, cool to see Orta, JSRF and ones i missed like Gun Valkyrie, i still want to play that one, and ToeJam & Earl III one day so bad. i too passed on the xbox - took it for a halo-box, and this one weird friend of mine was all about it but mostly pushed WRPGs which i thought looked boring back then, haha. i went back years ago to play through the better bioware stuff - KOTOR 1 & 2, Jade Empire etc, definitely some gems there but it's a bummer that both MS let the BC scene die out & the emulation one never filled the gap, at least last i checked.
Click to expand...

Well for a lot of people let's be honest it WAS a Halo box, but it was a Halo box with some absolutely amazing games. That and it tended to have the best multiplats by far. I saw the PS2 versions of Max Payne 1 and 2 once, it was not pleasant. Then again, the PS2 MGS2 was a bit better IIRC, it had less slowdown.



no, let's not do this - building your network on the bones of Seganet & getting one (excellent) section of their 3rd party lineup alone do not a DC make. i don't mean to knock the OG xbox's library in its own thread, because it's admittedly far better than i gave it credit for during its life cycle, but i still await a lineup like the DC got in its short life. the messiah has not yet returned
Click to expand...

No, but the Xbox was kinda like Paul the Apostle, it kept spreading the good word of quirky Sega, until it was executed for its beliefs. It even had a few SHMUPs, though not nearly as many as it's little brother would get.



yeah, KOTOR was laggy and i quit on JSRF for the graphic glitches (title deserves a proper play i figure), thankfully Orta plays smooth as butter as far as i'm seeing
Click to expand...

The best thing about playing Orta on an Xbox is that you can actually play a port of Panzer Dragoon that unlocks as you play through the original. I don't believe that the BC version had it. Playing PD with an actual high frame rate was glorious.

BrokenSymmetry said:
This thread makes me sad... From 2001 through 2007 Xbox was a brand to love, with amazing games. That great period ended with the release of Halo3 and PGR4. After that, Mattrick became the Xbox boss, and the magic was lost.
Click to expand...

Honestly everything was OK until around 2009, with Alan Wake's release specifically signaling the end of the old school era. It was all downhill from there.

TrevHead said:
Yeah even the PAL version of Orta ran really well, the problem is that there is a bug that causes a crash while the end of Stage 3 cutscene is playing.

Shame a SEGA employee or a Durante figure doesn't fix that as it seems like such a trifle thing.

Ninja Gaiden Black is another smooth as hell game, probably plays better than even OG Xbox.
Click to expand...

It plays perfectly on 360, probably the game with the least number of glitches in BC.
 
A

astonish

Member
Such a great system. I sold mine at the start of this gen and ended up buying my original console back from the guy I sold it to, with most of my games still in tack (sadly Ninja Gaiden seems to have been lost in the shuffle). I remember so many great games and the first proper online console experience. I sunk some real deep time in this system.

  • Rallisport 2 - One of my most played games ever. I put so many hours online in this and even met some long term gaming friends via this game. I had my OG xbox moded to do media features and when I accidentally got myself banned within 30 minutes I was driving to the store and bought a second virgin xbox just to XBL this game
  • Ninja Gaiden - One of the few "hard" games I've ever invested the training into beating. Getting through this on the hardest difficulty was a badge of honor for me. (Huge shoutouts to shinobier for his walk-through videos! As awesome to watch as they were to learn from, I still have a backup copy of them on my HD)
  • PGR/PGR2 - Such great racing games, building on the great stuff in MGR and paving the way for PGR3/4 where they perfected it.

Hours and hours disappeared into other games like KOTOR, Tony Hawk 3/4 and JSRF.

Some other not so mentioned games:

Prince of Persia: Sands of Time
UYytusc.jpg

A cross platform release, but the atmosphere in this game blew me away. I really felt as though I was slowly climbing a tower into the clouds. Really nice ending too. Best in series IMO.

Splinter Cell: Choas Theory
7dvSDJr.jpg

It happened a lot 360/PS3 gen, but this game was one of the first "WTF how did they make this machine do this!?" I'm a programmer and casually follow the technology of games. Being a PC gamer as well this late card title really pushed the machine to its limits in a way that I couldn't believe they made such amazing water and lighting on what was essentially a really crappy PC spec by the time the system was about to be retired. Also one of the few stealth games I really deeply liked.

Outlaw Golf
TxzCN9A.jpg

Yet another cross platformer and this ones goofy, but I sure had a lot of fun playing this with friends.

We actually pulled out an OG Xbox and did a bunch of multiplayer Fusion Frenzy during this years work christmas party and really had a great time (if only repeating "FUSION FRENZY" at the top of our lungs). Really makes me want to visit this system more in 2014.
 
T

thundr51

Member
My son plays Phantom dust and loves it. Hope to see this again on the xbone. I saw somebody mention Gun Valkyrie, will someone PLEASE tell me how to play this game? I got it because I was a big fan of smilebit's games and no matter what couldn't figure out how to play it. I really wish somebody would load this up on twitch...
 
H

Host Samurai

Member
I got 2 modded OG Xboxes hooked up. Full rom lists on every emulator you can get even Sega CD, Turbo CD, N64, GBA, SNES, Gen, Mame, NeoGeo, CPS1-3, Amiga etc plus some homebrew like Mugen, Beats of Rage, Streets of Rage Remake etc

On top of that I have a huge list XB games loaded on there. Even the niche games like Metal Wolf Chaos
 
B

bishopcruz

Member
Found my old Xbox with the dead HD, how hard is it to mod it? Thinking it would be cool to see how the homebrew scene was, and play Metal Wolf Chaos
 
B

bishopcruz

Member
MrGreencastle said:
Let us not forget the amazingness that was Halo 2.



SO good. I miss the OG Xbox days. Hard to believe Halo 2 will be 10 years old next year.
Click to expand...

Halo 2 was great. I think it might have been my first midnight game launch. It's crazy how much of an event that was when the Xbox was a relatively small platform compared to the PS2. Gotta give MS credit for making it an event.

As I was looking around for my old Xbox controllers I found a buddy's old modded xbox he gave me. The hard drive seems to be borked, how hard is it to replace it? I figure it would be different than the unmodded dead one I had.
 
D

Dreams-Visions

Member
Mech Assault
Crimson Skies
Halo 2

Probably my most-played MP console games of all time. I could play those games all day, every day and they never got old. To some degree I did just that. And since LIVE was new, everyone was actually...

...gasp...

...having FUN talking with strangers. No parties, few assholes. Just comedy and happiness. Meeting and befriending new people.

That's back when LIVE felt like being at a mid 90s arcade on a Saturday afternoon. Makes me sad.
 
T

Tain

Member
RaikuHebi said:
I'm surprised at the lack of emulation. Shouldn't it have been theoretically easier to emulate than PS2?

Is it a matter of the larger PS2 market meaning that got more focus?
Click to expand...

From Blueshogun, dude writing an emulator:

"Xbox is just like a PC, it's easy to emulate!"

Yes, we've all heard this silly and pointless argument a million times and it usually ends in the same, and rather ignorant conclusion (or should I say assumption) that just because the Xbox is PC similar, it's hardware should be relatively easy to emulate. That's a very wrong frame of mind. How hard can it be? Very. Xbox's hardware is very complex and still poorly documented to this day. This requires some explanation.

1. Is a PC easy to emulate? Well, I wouldn't say so myself. Take a look at the source code from bochs. A lot of source code/work isn't it?

2. Emulating an x86 CPU is a lot harder than it sounds. I don't know where this mindless assumption comes from. Yes, there's loads of documentation on how the x86 processor works, but that doesn't exactly make it easy. First of all, the x86 instruction set is M-A-S-S-I-V-E! There can be at least 20 different versions of one instruction (i.e. There are many different versions of the MOV instruction, as well as INC, DEC, ADD, SUB, SHR, SHL, AND, OR, XOR etc.) and it takes time to implement them all. Of course, that's not exactly difficult. The real problem is that any modern x86 processor including the Pentium III can execute multiple instructions at once. So it's not like emulating a Z80 doing one instruction at a time. The actual algorithm and how x86 does this is undocumented and still unknown. In short, the Xbox's CPU can be emulated, but not accurately.

3. Emulating any hardware by NVIDIA is not a walk in the park! The Xbox's GPU, the NV2A is often assumed just a GeForce 3. It's not! It's similar but not identical. It has some GeForce 4 capabilities too, so it's more of a cross between an NV20 and NV25. This is by no means easy to emulate either. NVIDIA's GPUs have very large register sets and afaik not even half of them have been discovered, and a large portion of known registers have unknown purposes. There is little to no documentation on how NVIDIA GPUs work. The best thing to do is to look at similar GPUs such as RIVA, TNT, and older GeForce cards. Some registers are similar, but not identical. The best place to look for information is in open source drivers available on the net. Adding to the dificulty is that no one has ever discovered how pixel shaders work on NV2x cards, vertex shaders yes though. The Xbox GPU also has exclusive registers that are not found in other GeForce cards. Information on the NV2A's GPU registers are just now beginning to be discovered a few months ago. And yet, there's still a long way to go. The GeForce 3 series is the most mysterious of all NVIDIA GPUs (G7x and G8x aside) and the NV2A is alot worse. "But can't you just directly execute the NV2A instructions on another NVIDIA card?". No, I get alot of questions concerning this, and it is impossible. It's MMIO addresses are different and the exclusive registers must be emulated. Plus, in windows, we don't have ring 0 access anyway, so you all can scratch that idea now. Then comes the NForce 2 chipset. This is where it get easier. The NVIDIA MCPX is the control center for things such as audio, USB for input, Network adapters, PCI, AGP, etc. These things are not really that difficult to emulate IMO except for the audio.

4. The Audio system is rather complex. Xbox's audio consists of at least 4 DSPs, and audio codec (AC '97) and an NVIDIA SoundStorm APU. The DSPs shouldn't be a problem (just figuring out what they all are is) nor should the AC '97 but the NVIDIA SoundStorm APU is the really difficult part. So far I haven't found any information on this thing, but right now, it's relevance is low.

5. The Xbox BIOS isn't fully understood. The basic execution process of the BIOS is understood, but details on the process are at a loss. What we do know gives us hints, but before the BIOS can be emulated, we'll need a better understanding of the Xbox hardware layout because the BIOS does some unknown hardware initialization at boot time and writes to the hardware directly without using any XDK stuff. It will take some time, and effort, but I'll eventually get it working.

6. Video Encoder "Hell". Instead of using a RAMDAC for video output, the Xbox uses a Video Encoder. What makes this suck a pain? Microsoft sought the need to change the video encoder every other Xbox version (there are seven in all, 1.0 - 1.6). Why, I dunno, it's a Microsoft thing, they always tend to try to "fix" things that aren't broken >.> AFAIK, there are at least 3 different Video Encoders used: Conexant CX25871, Focus FS454, and Xcalibur. For more information in Xbox video encoders, click here. Emulating all three video encoders is only less than half the battle, the real problem is that BIOSes can be specifically tied to a specific encoder depending on it's version (don't quote me on this though). Like PS2, every Xbox model revision has a updated BIOS and has different expectations. This is a potential problem, but not exactly major.

Basically, I'm trying to get this "Xbox should be easy to emulate because it's just like a PC" crap out of your heads. I'm sure that most of you will disagree with me on this, but for these reasons and more, on a low level, Xbox is harder to emulate than PS2.

^ The exception to that above is that the NV2A is much better documented now, but not fully. There's an open source library for the OpenXDK called pbKit. It interfaces directly with the hardware to fully expose it's potential. This is what Microsoft should have done all along (or at least wrote a low-level OpenGL implementation).
Click to expand...
 
S

Salvor.Hardin

Banned
Does anyone remember this awesome game?

Armed_and_Dangerous_box_cover.png


I laughed my ass of while playjnv it. The humour was great. Haven't seen it mentioned much on this board.
 
C

Captain N

Junior Member
Even though I probably sunk hundreds of hours into Halo 2 I don't think I played any game as much as I did NHL Rivals.
 
S

SeventhSon

Member
I missed out on the golden age of OG Xbox Live multiplayer, but I did play quite a bit of Star Wars Battlefront on 360 right up until MS shut off Live for the OG games.
 
B

bishopcruz

Member
radjago said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Xbox_games_with_HD_support

HDTVarcade.com used to have a good list, but it seems like their site has taken another direction. Here's the site from archive.org

https://web.archive.org/web/2006112...hdtvforum/index.php?autocom=custom&page=xboxa
Click to expand...

Awesome, Xmen Legends games in 720p? ALways wanted to play them. On my list now. Still the number of games that had 720p support is pretty insane for a console of that era. Hell the PS2 doing 480p was a special case, and from that list 2 games total didn't support it on the Xbox.

Makes me wonder if the Wii was powerful enough to do some games in 720p, but Nintendo couldn't be arsed to actually allow it.

Tain said:
From Blueshogun, dude writing an emulator:
Click to expand...

I never would have thought it was easy, but I do think a lot of the lack of a good Xbox emulator also has to do with the fact that not only is it complex, but the interest isn't there in the emu community. Gamecube, people care because of it being Nintendo, PS2 people care because it's PS2, Xbox gets a lot less love. See it IS a Sega system after all.

Salvor.Hardin said:
Does anyone remember this awesome game?

Armed_and_Dangerous_box_cover.png


I laughed my ass of while playjnv it. The humour was great. Haven't seen it mentioned much on this board.
Click to expand...

Heard a lot of good things about it. What was it like?
 
T

TAJ

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
astonish said:
Outlaw Golf
TxzCN9A.jpg

Yet another cross platformer and this ones goofy, but I sure had a lot of fun playing this with friends.

We actually pulled out an OG Xbox and did a bunch of multiplayer Fusion Frenzy during this years work christmas party and really had a great time (if only repeating "FUSION FRENZY" at the top of our lungs). Really makes me want to visit this system more in 2014.
Click to expand...

There was a standalone Christmas expansion called 9 Holes of Christmas. Blockbuster exclusive. $5, and came with B1G1 rental coupon. Still have that one.
 
Fox Mulder

Fox Mulder

Member
Dreams-Visions said:
Mech Assault
Crimson Skies
Halo 2

Probably my most-played MP console games of all time. I could play those games all day, every day and they never got old. To some degree I did just that. And since LIVE was new, everyone was actually...

...gasp...

...having FUN talking with strangers. No parties, few assholes. Just comedy and happiness. Meeting and befriending new people.

That's back when LIVE felt like being at a mid 90s arcade on a Saturday afternoon. Makes me sad.
Click to expand...

Live got awful pretty quick though. Now it's awful in a different way as people are either in parties or have their stupid Kinect mics on the whole time.
 
Sub_Level

Sub_Level

wants to fuck an Asian grill.
This game is the closest that consoles have come to the likes of Deus Ex, Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines, and System Shock 2. And at the time it was console-exclusive on the OGBOX.

-1538329375.jpg


This part of the game in particular was amazing.
 
B

bishopcruz

Member
Sub_Level said:
This game is the closest that consoles have come to the likes of Deus Ex, Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines, and System Shock 2. And at the time it was console-exclusive on the OGBOX.

-1538329375.jpg


This part of the game in particular was amazing.
Click to expand...

Riddick was a great game. Blew my mind when I first played it. Looked amazing, and played even better. And like Kotor it was better than the movie it was tied in to.
 
eso76

eso76

Member
Yep.

pgr
rallisport
conker remake
riddick
splinter cell
tons more

I remember ppl saying that, being basically a PC, the system would be perfectly emulated in a matter of days...
 
A

antiquegamer

Member
OP, you got me dusting off our Xbox and hook her up for one last time. Pretty strange to have it next to the Xbox One.
SoYYTXgl.jpg


My son and I put in so many hours playing Dynasty Warriors and Lords of the Rings. We also play tons of Godzilla and Kung Fu Chaos (this was our favorite party game). She is getting long in the tooth, the drive drawer constantly get stuck and only one of the four controllers is still functioning but she will be fondly remembered.
 
Sub_Level

Sub_Level

wants to fuck an Asian grill.
ebullientprism said:
I would love a working emulator just to play the good version of SC DA. :(
Click to expand...

It wasn't that good. I dunno if you played it, but there were three generic headquarters type levels that were fairly annoying, and the choice system seemed extremely shoehorned in. I never played the 360 version though so maybe it was the same for that as well.

The level design was nowhere near as tight as Chaos Theory. That being said, there was an ice level that was absolutely fantastic and oozed with atmosphere and tension.
 
The Spoony Hou

The Spoony Hou

Member
Hey guys, can someone point me a good source of info on how to hack the OG XBOX? I'd LOVE to be able to play JP games and install my games on the HDD. I've tried to gather info but it seems kinda complicated...
 
B

bishopcruz

Member
The Spoony Hou said:
Hey guys, can someone point me a good source of info on how to hack the OG XBOX? I'd LOVE to be able to play JP games and install my games on the HDD. I've tried to gather info but it seems kinda complicated...
Click to expand...

Trying to find the best places for this myself. Especially as I have one that is already modded, but has a dead HD, and one that is in good shape, but unmodded. Well, and another dead one that is missing. But in either case...

On another note, just ordered Xmen Destiny 1 and 2 off ebay for pretty cheap, 720p ftw.
 
G

G0523

Member
Salvor.Hardin said:
Does anyone remember this awesome game?

Armed_and_Dangerous_box_cover.png


I laughed my ass of while playjnv it. The humour was great. Haven't seen it mentioned much on this board.
Click to expand...

Yass! Dat British humor! And some Lucasarts jokes snuck in there as well. Gameplay was good if a bit floaty. I kinda wish there was co-op for it though. I'm still so glad I can play this on my 360.
 
A

astonish

Member
TAJ said:
There was a standalone Christmas expansion called 9 Holes of Christmas. Blockbuster exclusive. $5, and came with B1G1 rental coupon. Still have that one.
Click to expand...

No kidding. Thanks for the tip, I'll have to try and hunt that down for next year's party
 
E

Elija2

Member
I loved my Xbox. Not only did it usually have the best version of multiplatform titles, but it also had a bunch of great exclusives. Unfortunately mine stopped reading discs (which was apparently a common problem for near-launch units). One of these days I want to buy one again since we likely won't be seeing emulation any time soon.
 
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