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One Piece Manga |OT2| Four Emperors, One King, All Blue

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B

Blackleg-sanji1

Banned
R

Ray Down

Banned
Blackleg-sanji1 said:
"I'm doing my best to make sure to draw sanji in character as much as possible both in his best and husband worst"

O this gon be good

Yoshiike"my favorite is carrot"

You a real one

Koyama "my fav is sanji"
This interview just gets better and better
Click to expand...

The higher-ups behind the animated series are certainly special and unique people.
 
T

TheGreatDirector

Banned
Veelk said:
So, Feminist Frequency posted a new video on the Lady Sidekick over on the gaming side.

I'll keep it short because I know people don't want this topic to take over the thread yet again, but I bring it up because it helps support an argument on it that I made a while ago, and perhaps didn't word well enough to convince some of it. I promise to keep it short though. Well, you know, short for me.

I often complain about female characters in OP not getting fights, or if they do, it's either minimalized or put offscreen. But typically, they stay out of them, one way or another, either because they play support, or they lose and have to tap out to give the fight to a male character, or something. But they never out and out fight and the problem of this is that it conveys that, in a story where fighting is the primary method of enacting change, not doing so is a mark of having less agency. And often a counter-argument I've heard is that they play a role as support and that's just as good. It's not. The most recent example of this, and this is a fight people praised for how Nami was involved, was the Cracker fight, where Nami's agency was validated by the fact that Nami was involved to the extent that she was the reason that Luffy was able to win.

And if it was just Nami, I might agree, except the context of OP is that women never take control of a fight the way male characters do. And the video talks about what bad stereotypes are reinforced when supporting characters aren't given an equal footing to stand on with the protagonist characters. So when I talk about why it sucks that female characters don't get fights, it is for these reasons why, and why I don't view Nami throwing water on Cracker while Luffy does the real work to be a valid counterargument for her having fighting agency, because her ability is entirely dependent on the male characters doing the actual work.

And the other thing I want to point out most is that Anita doesn't just argue that this is bad just because of how this would perpetuates negative stereotypes in real life, but it is a failure to write characters as authentic, believable human beings. That it's bad writing. Which I agree it is. It's part of what makes OP's work generally unsatisfying for me, like I've talked about many times before.

Which is why I still feel some excitement for Big Mom. At the very least, she has definitively demonstrated that she is someone who doesn't rely on others to support her (Well...I mean, she relies on her homies, but they are also her own soul, so she's technically relying on her own....fuck, you know what I mean). When she finds Brook having snuck in her home to steal her things, she calls up sunfire and cloudthunder to break him down, relying on her own power to get what she wants. In the last chapter, I liked that she seemed genuinely offended at the idea that Katakuri was trying to protect her, as if she couldn't do it herself, and he had to explain that it was actually about protecting that picture. Granted, to be entirely fair, we still never actually got to see her fight, just one snapshot when Big Mom and Brook talked to each other rather than fought, so lets not count our chickens before they hatch, but nevertheless, it seems that Big Mom SHOULD get a fight this arc, presumably against Luffy. Because she just doesn't seem like the type of person who wouldn't tear out the asshole of anyone who ruined her beloved daughters wedding day.

And I hope she does, because if that happens, OP will have, just this once, stepped out the cage it set for itself in how it's written female characters, and I'd genuinely be pleased to see that.
Especially since Pudding's clearly a bust.
Click to expand...

Big Mom is a very important antagonist for me for this very reason. Like you've said, One Piece rarely has its woman characters take charge or command of a fight. Support is what they're relegated to. We see this extensively in Dressrosa, with Violet, Rebecca, and sadly Robin all assisting in fights but never actually driving them directly.

With Big Mom, we finally get a chance a female character finally being a dominant force by herself. It's one reason I like how pissed she gets at her family assisting her in a fight or confrontation. She actively wants to be bring the fight to the opponents on her own being the powerhouse she is. It's one reason that I really don't want to see her go down this arc, especially from the poison, because it ultimately undermine what Oda had potentially built up as an antagonist on a whole other stage from those the Strawhats have faced before.
 
SolVanderlyn

SolVanderlyn

Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
Bazooka?
 
SolVanderlyn

SolVanderlyn

Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
Blackleg-sanji1 said:
The one with the poison
Click to expand...
I'm drawing a total blank on this probably-very-important thing. Time to reread the chapter...

Also, I posted this before, but not in collage form

YMN7fhQ.png
 
SolVanderlyn

SolVanderlyn

Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
Ray Down said:
God I really don't see the love for the Vinsmokes.

There popularity is about as earned and shallow as Boba Fett.
Click to expand...
This is like saying this before the movie is even over. We haven't seen what they can do yet.

Also, I think I'm the only one in here who loves them.
 
L

LotusHD

Banned
If I don't focus on their shitty personalities (Outside of Reiju who is bae
ju
), I like their designs and how they got the whole Power Ranger aesthetics going on. Also I'm dying to know what exactly each of their powers are, if any of them have DFs, etc. I don't give a fuck if they get redemption or not, just interested in seeing what they'll do next.
 
SolVanderlyn

SolVanderlyn

Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
LotusHD said:
If I don't focus on their shitty personalities (Outside of Reiju who is bae
ju
), I like their designs and how they got the whole Power Ranger aesthetics going on. Also I'm dying to know what exactly each of their powers are, if any of them have DFs, etc. I don't give a fuck if they get redemption or not, just interested in seeing what they'll do next.
Click to expand...
Basically this for me too.

I also like how Sanji, already my favorite Straw Hat, has a "cooler older brother" (with the color of red!) in the vein of Racer X from Speed Racer, Proto Man/Blues from Mega Man, or Zero (brother figure if not literal brother) from Mega Man X. All of my favorite characters from my youth, re-represented in a fresh new way in a series I currently love with a relation to a character I also love. I don't like any of the Vinsmoke bros as people, but they are extremely fascinating characters to me on many other levels.
 
T

turmoil

Banned
Their designs are badass and I am eager to see them in action. 1, 2 and 4ji personalities are too similar to my tastes tho.

And Reiju is just your typical damsel in distress.
 
R

Ray Down

Banned
SolVanderlyn said:
This is like saying this before the movie is even over. We haven't seen what they can do yet.

Also, I think I'm the only one in here who loves them.
Click to expand...

They shown nothing but be irredeemable unfunny dickheads with no hope of being interesting.

Doesn't help that all of the Vinsokes come across the same aside from really Reiju, a bit from Yonji since he's the goober.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
I'm not a fan of any of the Vinsmokes, Reiju included.

Ichiji, Niji, and Yonji are basically the same exact character, except a few shades different. Ichiji is more stoic, Niji is more of more emotional, and Yonji is more stupid. Judge is more like Ichiji too, a stoic but he's the leader and has a different design. But they basically just come down to being stupid dicks. I've gone over how I think Big Mom should have cut the bullshit and just murdered them outright.

Reiju is not a dick, but fuck, she's boring. She apparently just wants to go and die because she's a Vinsmoke and is in this as a suicide mission. Fuck, if she hated being a vinsmoke that much, why didn't she leave or atleast fight back in some way. But then that would get in the way of the Strawhats not having a damsel to save.

The Vinsmokes suck so hard that I can fully believe that they're Sanji's family.
 
C

caliph95

Member
Veelk said:
I'm not a fan of any of the Vinsmokes, Reiju included.

Ichiji, Niji, and Yonji are basically the same exact character, except a few shades different. Ichiji is more stoic, Niji is more of more emotional, and Yonji is more stupid. Judge is more like Ichiji too, a stoic but he's the leader and has a different design. But they basically just come down to being stupid dicks. I've gone over how I think Big Mom should have cut the bullshit and just murdered them outright.

Reiju is not a dick, but fuck, she's boring. She apparently just wants to go and die because she's a Vinsmoke and is in this as a suicide mission. Fuck, if she hated being a vinsmoke that much, why didn't she leave or atleast fight back in some way. But then that would get in the way of the Strawhats not having a damsel to save.

The Vinsmokes suck so hard that I can fully believe that they're Sanji's family.
Click to expand...
While i'm not a fan of them besides the design to be fair for Reiju she stated because of the experiments she is programmed like the her brother to follow their father's orders. Only difference is she still has empathy and i think human emotions which was removed from her brothers by the dad.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
caliph95 said:
While i'm not a fan of them besides the design to be fair for Reiju she stated because of the experiments she is programmed like the her brother to follow their father's orders. Only difference is she still has empathy and i think human emotions which was removed from her brothers by the dad.
Click to expand...
She clearly has ways of disobeying him though. Otherwise, she wouldn't have been able to free Sanji from his cage as a kid or put non-explosive handcuffs on him. So she's willing to disobey him so that Sanji can go out and do things, but won't take any steps to actually do shit herself.

She's a lame ass.
 
C

caliph95

Member
Veelk said:
She clearly has ways of disobeying him though. Otherwise, she wouldn't have been able to free Sanji from his cage as a kid or put non-explosive handcuffs on him. So she's willing to disobey him so that Sanji can go out and do things, but won't take any steps to actually do shit herself.

She's a lame ass.
Click to expand...
I think those were her exploiting loopholes a bigger fan can probably clarify
 
V

Veelk

Banned
caliph95 said:
I think those were her exploiting loopholes a bigger fan can probably clarify
Click to expand...

My point is that she isn't active in pursuit of her goals. There are plenty of loopholes she could have found to get what she wanted.

Just as an example, imagine if it was a plot-twist that it was actually her that actually helped orchestrate the Vinsmoke Assassination Plan with Big Mom. Like, she actually is the one that leaked info to her that the vinsmokes had a clone army to get BM's attention and the deal wouldn't have happened unless Reiju convinced Judge that allying with Big Mom was worth it. In exchange for the set up, Reiju would be the only remaining heir to the Germa 66 Kingdom.

It's not perfect because Reiju would need to find some kind of assurance that BM wouldn't just off her with the rest of her family, but I'd atleast respect that when she decided that the Germa 66 kingdom was evil, she took active measures to accomplish her goals instead of "Oh, we're gonna be assassinated? That's cool, I guess."
 
D

dabig2

Member
Veelk said:
So, Feminist Frequency posted a new video on the Lady Sidekick over on the gaming side.

I'll keep it short because I know people don't want this topic to take over the thread yet again, but I bring it up because it helps support an argument on it that I made a while ago, and perhaps didn't word well enough to convince some of it. I promise to keep it short though. Well, you know, short for me.

I often complain about female characters in OP not getting fights, or if they do, it's either minimalized or put offscreen. But typically, they stay out of them, one way or another, either because they play support, or they lose and have to tap out to give the fight to a male character, or something. But they never out and out fight and the problem of this is that it conveys that, in a story where fighting is the primary method of enacting change, not doing so is a mark of having less agency. And often a counter-argument I've heard is that they play a role as support and that's just as good. It's not. The most recent example of this, and this is a fight people praised for how Nami was involved, was the Cracker fight, where Nami's agency was validated by the fact that Nami was involved to the extent that she was the reason that Luffy was able to win.

And if it was just Nami, I might agree, except the context of OP is that women never take control of a fight the way male characters do. And the video talks about what bad stereotypes are reinforced when supporting characters aren't given an equal footing to stand on with the protagonist characters. So when I talk about why it sucks that female characters don't get fights, it is for these reasons why, and why I don't view Nami throwing water on Cracker while Luffy does the real work to be a valid counterargument for her having fighting agency, because her ability is entirely dependent on the male characters doing the actual work.

And the other thing I want to point out most is that Anita doesn't just argue that this is bad just because of how this would perpetuates negative stereotypes in real life, but it is a failure to write characters as authentic, believable human beings. That it's bad writing. Which I agree it is. It's part of what makes OP's work generally unsatisfying for me, like I've talked about many times before.

Which is why I still feel some excitement for Big Mom. At the very least, she has definitively demonstrated that she is someone who doesn't rely on others to support her (Well...I mean, she relies on her homies, but they are also her own soul, so she's technically relying on her own....fuck, you know what I mean). When she finds Brook having snuck in her home to steal her things, she calls up sunfire and cloudthunder to break him down, relying on her own power to get what she wants. In the last chapter, I liked that she seemed genuinely offended at the idea that Katakuri was trying to protect her, as if she couldn't do it herself, and he had to explain that it was actually about protecting that picture. Granted, to be entirely fair, we still never actually got to see her fight, just one snapshot when Big Mom and Brook talked to each other rather than fought, so lets not count our chickens before they hatch, but nevertheless, it seems that Big Mom SHOULD get a fight this arc, presumably against Luffy. Because she just doesn't seem like the type of person who wouldn't tear out the asshole of anyone who ruined her beloved daughters wedding day.

And I hope she does, because if that happens, OP will have, just this once, stepped out the cage it set for itself in how it's written female characters, and I'd genuinely be pleased to see that.
Especially since Pudding's clearly a bust.
Click to expand...

I'm as hell aand I know this is an old record, but all i just want to say is this is why I hope carrot joins the crew. has nothing to do with waifu shit. She's simply the female strawhat hammer we need and deserve. Even in this arc, choppah was the brains, and she was the muscle. It's impossible for oda IMPOSSIBLE to paint her otherwise, because her entire character is just a bouncy cute machine of hard boiled close quarter action who is absent minded as hell like luffy and the other guys. She's not a magical eye candy support like nami and robin. Not even Oda couldn't possibly fuck this up if he lets Carrot sail with the main crew and get into hijinks that requires throwing down hands, feet, tails, whiskers, and fur.
 
C

caliph95

Member
Veelk said:
My point is that she isn't active in pursuit of her goals. There are plenty of loopholes she could have found to get what she wanted.

Just as an example, imagine if it was a plot-twist that it was actually her that actually helped orchestrate the Vinsmoke Assassination Plan with Big Mom. Like, she actually is the one that leaked info to her that the vinsmokes had a clone army to get BM's attention and the deal wouldn't have happened unless Reiju convinced Judge that allying with Big Mom was worth it. In exchange for the set up, Reiju would be the only remaining heir to the Germa 66 Kingdom.

It's not perfect because Reiju would need to find some kind of assurance that BM wouldn't just off her with the rest of her family, but I'd atleast respect that when she decided that the Germa 66 kingdom was evil, she took active measures to accomplish her goals instead of "Oh, we're gonna be assassinated? That's cool, I guess."
Click to expand...
Good point the Vinsmokes are honestly the least interesting part, agree with you about Reiju being boring and doing nothing, she at least have more going for her than her brothers. Not much though
 
B

Blackleg-sanji1

Banned
LotusHD said:
If I don't focus on their shitty personalities (Outside of Reiju who is bae
ju
), I like their designs and how they got the whole Power Ranger aesthetics going on. Also I'm dying to know what exactly each of their powers are, if any of them have DFs, etc. I don't give a fuck if they get redemption or not, just interested in seeing what they'll do next.
Click to expand...
.
 
A

ArgyleReptile

Banned
Honestly, I think the 3 Vinsmoke brothers could have been fused into one and nothing would have been lost. Sanji would just have one brother who bullied him and a sister. If you wanted more bullies, Judge could have made it a point to order his soldiers to beat up Sanji to toughen him up. Everything still would've played out the same, in my opinion. The super sentai motif would work still if Judge was included in it.
 
SaniOYOYOY

SaniOYOYOY

Member
dabig2 said:
I'm as hell aand I know this is an old record, but all i just want to say is this is why I hope carrot joins the crew. has nothing to do with waifu shit. She's simply the female strawhat hammer we need and deserve. Even in this arc, choppah was the brains, and she was the muscle. It's impossible for oda IMPOSSIBLE to paint her otherwise, because her entire character is just a bouncy cute machine of hard boiled close quarter action who is absent minded as hell like luffy and the other guys. She's not a magical eye candy support like nami and robin. Not even Oda couldn't possibly fuck this up if he lets Carrot sail with the main crew and get into hijinks that requires throwing down hands, feet, tails, whiskers, and fur.
Click to expand...

I support this. Carrot interaction with luffy is unlike anyone else in the crew (both are adventure loving, have high energy and high curiosity) and she is the only one finding luffy's crazy antics funny. Im not afraid of her being repeat chopper because of that

and top 3 : luffy zoro franky
 
B

Blackleg-sanji1

Banned
SaniOYOYOY said:
I support this. Carrot interaction with luffy is unlike anyone else in the crew (both are adventure loving, have high energy and high curiosity) and she is the only one finding luffy's crazy antics funny. Im not afraid of her being repeat chopper because of that

and top 3 : luffy zoro franky
Click to expand...
Chopper runs. They had to force Carrot to run
 
O

Ogodei

Member
turmoil said:
Oda should design every character as male and then gender swap the females.
Click to expand...

Huh, you're right.

Interestingly the gender-swapped women have a definite beeline to male characters (Bonny-bro looks like Paulie, and Boa-bro looks like Shanks), while the swapped-men still look pretty distinct as women.

Just design everything as men and then change the face in post :p

Edit: Carrot could get sidelined if she signs up, but only in the way that Chopper, Franky, and Brook, the non-support non-monster-trio, often get relegated to lesser roles.
 
R

Ray Down

Banned
dabig2 said:
I'm as hell aand I know this is an old record, but all i just want to say is this is why I hope carrot joins the crew. has nothing to do with waifu shit. She's simply the female strawhat hammer we need and deserve. Even in this arc, choppah was the brains, and she was the muscle. It's impossible for oda IMPOSSIBLE to paint her otherwise, because her entire character is just a bouncy cute machine of hard boiled close quarter action who is absent minded as hell like luffy and the other guys. She's not a magical eye candy support like nami and robin. Not even Oda couldn't possibly fuck this up if he lets Carrot sail with the main crew and get into hijinks that requires throwing down hands, feet, tails, whiskers, and fur.
Click to expand...

To bad she isn't, sad days,sad days, sad days!
 
T

turmoil

Banned
Ogodei said:
Huh, you're right.

Interestingly the gender-swapped women have a definite beeline to male characters (Bonny-bro looks like Paulie, and Boa-bro looks like Shanks), while the swapped-men still look pretty distinct as women.

Just design everything as men and then change the face in post :p

Edit: Carrot could get sidelined if she signs up, but only in the way that Chopper, Franky, and Brook, the non-support non-monster-trio, often get relegated to lesser roles.
Click to expand...

I think that the Luffy-bodytype is the male counterpart of the Nami-bodytype, just that is not so repetitive thanks to all the variations Oda uses with males.

But why is Kuma-chan smiling instead of having a no-fucks-given face?
 
SolVanderlyn

SolVanderlyn

Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
I still think it's really unfair to judge people we've seen so little of. We basically know who they are and their past and that's about it. Reiju keeps being mentioned as the exclusion and (surprise) we've seen her have more screen time. Imagine finding a character with more scenes and exposition more interesting than characters who have had little quips here and there.

Re: Carrot joining: I've joked about it being a bad idea in the past but a lightning fisted Rabbit is actually a really cool addition to the cast. I don't think it'll happen though.
 
R

Ray Down

Banned
SolVanderlyn said:
I still think it's really unfair to judge people we've seen so little of. We basically know who they are and their past and that's about it. Reiju keeps being mentioned as the exclusion and (surprise) we've seen her have more screen time. Imagine finding a character with more scenes and exposition more interesting than characters who have had little quips here and there.

Re: Carrot joining: I've joked about it being a bad idea in the past but a lightning fisted Rabbit is actually a really cool addition to the cast. I don't think it'll happen though.
Click to expand...
The small glimpse we have seen and what Reiju has said show they are nothing but emotionless monsters. How much character can they have where their sister doesn't even want to save them.
 
M

Man God

Non-Canon Member
Law was a shit kid too and he got better. Maybe the rest are secretly jealous of Sanji being good. I trust Oda completely to make it interesting at least.
 
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