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[Dynasty8]

Just venting here... To put it simply: "Infantilization is the prolonged treatment of one who is not a child, as though they are a child."

This is mainly a gameplay problem, but there are parts that have bled into story/narrative, cosmetics and more. Let's look at some timestamped examples in recent memory:



GoW: Ragnarok treating players like they are toddlers:


Horizon... Aloy constantly reminding you of obvious things. Over and over and over again.


The infamous "Bharv" scene where it's designed to scold players like they're children and "teach them a lesson". It doesn't do the game's story any favors here, quite the opposite. There are dozens of other examples as well. Bioware traded a mature dark fantasy for adults in favor of PG13 Disney fantasy...the game also has dozens of other gameplay issues where it treats players like children.


Old Tomb Raider vs New Tomb Raider


Old Resident Evil vs New Resident Evil


FFXVI being overly forgiving, removing any depth and substance...


Call of Duty's cosmetics/monetization has also gone full infantilization, trading its' iconic military theme to desperately become Fortnite.



Just venting here. This goes beyond "accessibility" at this point. I really think it's caused a nosedive to the innovation, creativity and overall "game design".

Many Developers/Publishers are playing it so incredibly safe in fear of losing some players... Yet, I think it's having the opposite effect here. More complex games like Elden Ring, Sekiro and Baldur's Gate 3 continue breaking records and sweeping Game of the Year awards. We have Path of Exile 2 coming out tomorrow and Kingdom Come Deliverance: II in a couple months. Watch both of those games that have more depth and are more complex continue shattering records. The market for these type of games (that don't hold your hand and don't treat you like a child) is MUCH bigger than what some of these "Player Testing" and "consulting" groups have led big companies to believe. I think that's a big problem.

 

[Raven117]

Its kinda of in everything honestly. And its horrible.

 

[Crayon]

Games designed to sell 20 million are going to do that. Look elsewhere.

 

[Tiago Rodrigues]

This is the problem with making games that cost more than hollywood movies. You want people without an actual brain to reach the end and make sure they see the ending.
Problem is, specially the west, hasn't realized gamers actually like a challenge and videogames got mainstream like this because they actually felt like you needed a brain to play them.

That's why something like Elden Ring sold the way it did.

God of War was terrible. I feel like it was even worse than Forbidden West. I have no idea who told Sony studios to do that but thank god Spider-Man 2 wasn't like that.

 

[bender]

There is that GOW GDC Level Design talk where they use DSP of all people as an example of who they are catering to.



Look at the level design of Metroid Dread and how it funnels you and prevents backtracking and yet some people still got stuck in the beginning (speaking of God of War).

 

[Cornbread78]

Every game must be Souls like to be a real gamers game amirite?

 

[Sooner]

I didn't understand the OP. Could you do it again, but explain it like I'm a five year-old?

 

[TintoConCasera]

Agreed. Many AAA games seem to be designed for retards. Which sucks, because that takes away any sense of acomplishment when beating them.

But hey, I get it, those games need to sell a ton to be profitable, so they have to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

 

[Setsuna Mudou]

Perfectly reasonable take, this is what happens when an industry becomes so big that to sustain itself it needs to start appealing to the most vanilla mainstream audiences... I think what some people (sometimes) misattribute to being "woke" is no more than a byproduct of this casualization and attempt to please everyone. Ending up not pleasing anyone finally

 

[kikkis]

When you factor team play, loadouts and streaks of call o duty, i would argue it's more complex and deep than souls roll and strike.

 

[Setsuna Mudou]

Every game must be Souls like to be a real gamers game amirite?

doesn't have to... but wouldn't hurt though

 

[Snowdonhoffen]

I don't think Infantilization is the right term for some of the examples you gave.
Linear games, easier puzzles and a more forgiving combat are part of the "accessibility" thing a lot of developers are trying to follow nowadays. The more people can play, the more they sell. I kinda understand that part.
The skins, well, yeah, I'll give you that one.
And the Dragon Age scene, well, that one is just preaching.

 

[KimDongHwan]

There is that GOW GDC Level Design talk where they use DSP of all people as an example of who they are catering to.



Look at the level design of Metroid Dread and how it funnels you and prevents backtracking and yet some people still got stuck in the beginning (speaking of God of War).

What is DSP ?

 

[Loomy]

This goes beyond "accessibility" at this point. I really think it's caused a nosedive to the innovation, creativity and overall "game design".

It doesn't go beyond accessibility. It's the intention, and that's not a bad thing. The bad thing is that there's rarely an option to turn them off or scale the amount of hand holding the game does.

The reality is some people need more help with these things. Especially at the start of a game. There's no reason to completely exclude them. But they need to work on making these things optional. I just restarted UC4, for example, and that game gives you the option to turn hints off.

So yes, I agree with your premise that the hand holding is a bit much, but I disagree that it needs to disappear or that it's stifling creativity and innovation.

 

[ssringo]

You say "getting out of hand" but I've been irritated with baby tutorials since the N64. I read the instruction manual mother fucker, stop interrupting the game to tell me basic ass mechanics.

 

[bender]

What is DSP ?

A terrible Let's Player most notable for accidentally cranking one out on stream.

 

[Magic Carpet]

It's either give the games a baby makeover OR lose the gamers to Tic Toc.

 

[Gamer_By_Proxy]

I don’t get it. Explain it to me like I’m 5 years old.

 

[bad guy]

Just play other games then. There are so many.

 

[Kadve]

Think yathzee made a good point in regards to this when he talked about Forespoken.

When a game has a leveling system but you can still beat it while ignoring pretty much every random encounter. The game isn't respecting you or itself.

 

[Thief1987]

Every game must be Souls like to be a real gamers game amirite?

Ever heard about options? What's the point in making "puzzles" if you are going to tell solution 3 second later?

 

[peek]

Wait, leme get my binky before I read all that. The yellow paint should help guide me there.

 

[Aces High]

I agree 100% with OP.

My favorite games are those where you just press Start and then gameplay immediately starts and you're on your own until the credits roll. No handholding. No support wheels.

But that only works if the game is very well designed.

 

[Freeman76]

Yup, AAA is pretty much dead, they mostly go for the same target audience of Just Stop Oil cunts to avoid backlash. Don't even follow big games anymore, prefer my indies. You dont see any top surgery options in Factorio

 

[LordOfChaos]

There's a balance to be struck. I don't want to be treated like an idiot, but the most frustrating moments in gaming are also when things are just poorly signposted and it's just running around trying to achieve an unclear goal.

My favorite games are those where you just press Start and then gameplay immediately starts and you're on your own until the credits roll. No handholding. No support wheels.

But that only works if the game is very well designed.

Right, this. Bloodborne for example is a masterwork in not really telling you much but giving you enough to figure it out without any handholding or characters telling you what to do. But if a game is poorly signposted and tries the same thing it's awful.

 

[panda-zebra]

The ps5 has ample features to help out those who need accessibility options, Sony's games themselves are full of them and the ps5 UI is now laden with helpful guides and tips - that all adds up to plenty of ways to bypass the challenge any game might offer without having to ruin it for others. There's no good reason right now to be dumbing things down so hard and not allowing players to disable the in-game hand-holding - it should all be opt-in.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

For 2 years straight, people were scared to death of other people sneezing.

They deserve to be treated like ignorant children.

 

[TintoConCasera]

It doesn't go beyond accessibility. It's the intention, and that's not a bad thing. The bad thing is that there's rarely an option to turn them off or scale the amount of hand holding the game does.

The reality is some people need more help with these things. Especially at the start of a game. There's no reason to completely exclude them. But they need to work on making these things optional. I just restarted UC4, for example, and that game gives you the option to turn hints off.

So yes, I agree with your premise that the hand holding is a bit much, but I disagree that it needs to disappear or that it's stifling creativity and innovation.

I disagree.

Not everyone should be able to beat a videogame. If you are good, you beat it, if not, you don't. And there's nothing bad in not being able to beat the game, just keep trying and get better at it.

 

[The Cockatrice]

I agree. As I pointed out in another discussion its because kids these days, modern gamers are complete idiots who can't focus for more than one minute. It is what it is.

 

[Ozriel]

Beyond parody that grown men (and women) sit down and listen to monetized YouTubers tell them why they should be outraged.

I mean, you’ll find people that actually loved playing through the recent Resident Evil games (including the Remakes) and then sit down to hear someone tell them why they should feel upset that ‘modern Resident evil infantilizes you compared to the old games’.

Baffling

 

[Insanemaelstrom]

Funnily enough was going to make a similar thread myself. AAA devs need to stop thinking that most gamers are toddlers. Failing and getting better is part of life and actually enjoyable in games.

I enjoy gt7 far more than codemasters games because there is no magical rewind button( I know I can turn it off, but if it's there I am using it). Some of the most popular games in recent years didn't have accessibility and were honestly what most AAA devs consider hardcore for casual audience, yet sell far more than the so called accessible games. Elden ring, Helldivers 2, baldur's gate 3, etc are just few examples.

 

[Husky]

When I was a kid, a friend and I translated the braille in Pokémon FRLG without consulting the internet or any guides. It's a cryptic side puzzle that no one in-game helps you with, and it's fun for kids to solve. Newer Pokémon games don't have anything like that, they take you by the hand and never let go. God I hate Sun and Moon. Even games primarily aimed at kids don't need that kind of handholding. It seems like lots of these games are primarily aimed at game critics.

 

[Hrk69]

 

[Loomy]

I disagree.

Not everyone should be able to beat a videogame. If you are good, you beat it, if not, you don't. And there's nothing bad in not being able to beat the game, just keep trying and get better at it.

We found out recently that only about 10%-20% of people even finish games they start. So it's not about completion.

And it's not about "being good". Let's say you've been studying Norse mythology for years, and your nephew/niece tells you about this game that has their own take on Norse Mythology. You read up on it and think "interesting, let me take a look" You've never played a game before. Or at least a modern AAA game. You've never really showed interest in games. Should you not be guided through it if you need the help?

Now think of countless other situation where someone may not be exactly like you and need help staying on task and working through problems.

Like I said, I agree that it being the default that is on all the time is probably not the best idea. There should be an option to turn off or scale back the amount of hand holding the game does.

 

[Aces High]

I also consider an overuse of cutscenes a form of narrative handholding.

It feels like getting spoon-fed.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

is the IQ of modern audiences

 

[TintoConCasera]

We found out recently that only about 10%-20% of people even finish games they start. So it's not about completion.

And it's not about "being good". Let's say you've been studying Norse mythology for years, and your nephew/niece tells you about this game that has their own take on Norse Mythology. You read up on it and think "interesting, let me take a look" You've never played a game before. Or at least a modern AAA game. You've never really showed interest in games. Should you not be guided through it if you need the help?

That person could just check it out on YouTube, or ask his niece to play it for him or whatever.

If the argument is that games should cater to people that "never played a game before nor showed interest in games" then sorry, but I couldn't disagree more.

You could say "Tinto, if you don't like that handholding shit maybe devs could make it optional and turn it off". But the thing is, all this stuff takes dev time and resources, which I'd rather have dedicated to other stuff.

I dunno man, we have had decades of games not aimed at stupid people and we've been fine. I miss how games used to overall be more challenging. Even one of my favorite series, Shin Megami Tensei, it's starting to become way easier than it was with stuff like being able to teleport or save anywhere.

 

[Hypereides]

Have to agree. I get that they want games to be accessible and fully experienced by as many as possible, but there has to be a limit/balance. Some of the stuff that's happening now in AAA is down right condescending and patronizing. Its really off-putting when some AAA game robs me off the possibility to think through a puzzle. It breaks the immersion when some characters keeps yapping obvious hints through the 4th wall. Not to mention its unnatural.

I became aware not too long ago that Santa Monica used DarkSydePhil as a litmus test for proper player/gamer guidance. I was floored.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

I also consider an overuse of cutscenes a form of narrative handholding.

It feels like getting spoon-fed.

nah dawg

 

[Games of Today]

Games designed to sell 20 million are going to do that. Look elsewhere.

I don't believe this is a very good argument. Games have been trying to sell like this since their inception. And only after 2015 have we seen a REAL degradation of their theming.

 

[Crayon]

I don't believe this is a very good argument. Games have been trying to sell like this since their inception. And only after 2015 have we seen a REAL degradation of their theming.

Oh heck no. For most of gaming history, nobody thought of 10 million plus in their wildest dreams. And it's only more recently that numbers like that are an actual expectation, and not just somewhat possible.

The completely ubiquitous NES sold 60 million over an extended lifetime including rebranded variance over a exceptionally long lifespan. Game boys, about 120 million I think. Someone let me know if these numbers are wrong.

The market now is so much bigger, and primarily expanded with players that become more and more casual.

The good news is that there are more alternatives than ever geared towards those players that grew up with that 8 and 16 bit generation.

I admit I'm still not exactly presenting an airtight argument, though.

 

[Aces High]

nah dawg

It comes with nuance.

In my opinion there are good and bad cutscenes in video games.

The good ones feel 'relieving'.

Like when you're at the end of the game. Or you just made it through a super challenging level.

Naughty Dog are masters of these because they always use them at the end of their set pieces. It feels like a reward to watch it and it helps immensely with pacing since they can be connected with 'set-up' cutscenes for the next level.

Bad cutscenes are pretty much anything else. Just let me play.

 

[Loomy]

That person could just check it out on YouTube, or ask his niece to play it for him or whatever.

If the argument is that games should cater to people that "never played a game before nor showed interest in games" then sorry, but I couldn't disagree more.

You are depriving that person of the experience of playing a game. Games are meant to be played, regardless of how many hours people spend watching streams.

You could say "Tinto, if you don't like that handholding shit maybe devs could make it optional and turn it off". But the thing is, all this stuff takes dev time and resources, which I'd rather have dedicated to other stuff.

I would say "Tinto, not everyone is on your level, a lot of them would like to enjoy God of War, or The Last of Us, or FF16" and they should be able to do so. Also, devs do put effort into that stuff. FF16 for example, has a bunch of items you get at the start of the game that makes the combat a cakewalk if that's not something you're used to. But you can choose whether or not to equip them.

 

[ProtoByte]

God of War was terrible. I feel like it was even worse than Forbidden West. I have no idea who told Sony studios to do that but thank god Spider-Man 2 wasn't like that.

"Accessibility" grifters doing everything they can to convince the studio they are worth keeping on payroll. GOW 2018 wasn't as hand holdy, and sold over 20 million. It isn't the mass market aspect responsible for this degree of lowest common denominator bait, it's activists and people trying to justify their nonsensical jobs.

 

[TintoConCasera]

You are depriving that person of the experience of playing a game. Games are meant to be played, regardless of how many hours people spend watching streams.

Exactly! Imo games are meant to be played, not beaten. When I was a kid I didn't beat most of the games I played but that didn't bother me at all, I'd still have fun playing them and trying my best.

The nose mithology guy could check out GOW. Might be hard as balls at the start but with some practice I'm sure he would be able to beat it or, at least, make some progress.

I would say "Tinto, not everyone is on your level, a lot of them would like to enjoy God of War, or The Last of Us, or FF16" and they should be able to do so. Also, devs do put effort into that stuff. FF16 for example, has a bunch of items you get at the start of the game that makes the combat a cakewalk if that's not something you're used to. But you can choose whether or not to equip them.

Yeah I guess an option like that item on FF16 is enough, as long as the devs don't spend a lot of dev time balancing that easy mode.

 

[ReyBrujo]

Just play other games then. There are so many.

His favorite franchises are becoming woke and he doesn't like it, and it's hard to find new favorite franchises nowadays. In the end you kind of get used to some stuff, like when the Japanese add anime characters to Wizardry games. I mean, I don't need waifus to come with me when dungeon crawling but in the end you get used to that, them giving you opinions and tips and reminders just so that they appear more often on screen.

 

[Crayon]

We should be recommending aa stand-ins for op! Asking to step down to side scrollers and roguelikes is a big ask.

I submit returnal and armored core 6!

 

[HerjansEagleFeeder]

Its kinda of in everything honestly. And its horrible.

This. The easiest domain to notice this in is politics. Voters are spoken to like they're little children. The problem is, many people are stupid as if they were. So sad.

 

[Madserb2023]

Ragnarok destroyed me. I was told the solution before I even had a chance to look.

 

[xenosys]

Big AAA games are designed to appeal to the widest demographics possible, which includes children and stupid people, in order to give their game a chance of making their investment back.

Pains me to say it, but these companies would rather have a few people moan about puzzles being too easy or hand-holdy than have those demographics not buy their game at all because they're too hard.