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[imastalker co.]

It does when the change makes it where the only way you won't have a perfect drift is if you intentionally keep the car turned too long.

i don't understand how this makes the game less fun. on its own merits, the game amazing. if you don't like the game, that's fine, but get the fuck out of here with that whole "they made it easier, so it sucks" bullshit.

can someone change Phantomile's title to "Nintendo's company line here ->" already?

but, we're talking about a namco game here. not to mention, that namco apparently agrees with that logic if you look at the control layouts of their games.

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

I know we get hung up on games not on these kind of lists, but this is a really overall great list the more and more I look at it with the ones they did list.

Zone of the Enders 2!!! One of the most over looked games ever! Recognize bitches!!!

 

[Amir0x]

but, we're talking about a namco game here. not to mention, that namco apparently agrees with that logic if you look at the control layouts of their games.

durr, but you always approach games this way. "I must be in line with Nintendo's company line!"

No, Ridge Racer 4 was fine. But it wasn't the empitome of the series, because it was easier and less complex. Rage owns it. But I'm not a huge Ridge fan as it is, soooo!

Complexity often DOES equal more fun!

 

[jj984jj]

Wipeout
Super Puzzle Fighter II Turbo
Castlevania: Symphony of the Night
Final Fantasy VII
Parappa the Rapper
Resident Evil 2 (I have it on the N64 ^_^)
Crash Bandicoot 3: Warped
Final Fantasy Tactics
Gran Turismo
Hot Shots Golf
Klonoa: Door to Phantomile
Metal Gear Solid
Oddworld: Abe's Exodus
Spyro the Dragon
Suikoden II
Tenchu: Stealth Assassins
Tomb Raider II
Xenogears
Ape Escape
Silent Hill
Street Fighter Alpha 3
Chrono Cross
Persona 2: Eternal Punishment
Rayman 2: The Great Escape
Vagrant Story
Dance Dance Revolution
Devil May Cry
Final Fantasy X
GTA III
ICO
Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty
SSX Tricky (GCN)
Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3
Ace Combat 04: Shattered Skies
GTA: Vice City
Kingdom Hearts
Amplitude
Beyond Good and Evil (GCN)
Dark Cloud 2
Prince of Persia: Sands of Time (GCN)
Soul Calibur II (GCN)
Virtua Fighter 4: Evolution
World Soccer Winning Eleven 7
Zone of the Enders: The 2nd Runner
Burnout 3: Takedown
GTA: San Andreas
Katamari Damacy
Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater
Onimusha 3: Demon Siege
Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne
Dynasty Warriors 5
Devil May Cry 3: Dante's Awakening
God of War
Gran Turismo 4
Lego Star Wars (GCN)
Resident Evil 4 (GCN)
Shadow of the Colossus
Starwars: Battlefront II
Tekken 5
Time Splitters: Future Perfect
Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory

My Collection

 

[Suburban Cowboy]

Dynasty Warrior 5 is the definitive version!

 

[imastalker co.]

durr, but you always approach games this way. "I must be in line with Nintendo's company line!"

hey, i like namco just as much, if not more than Nintendo. all of namco's games have simple controls. what's wrong with me liking that?

But it wasn't the empitome of the series, because it was easier and less complex. Rage owns it.

i don't understand that logic. in that case, do you feel that VF4 isn't as good as 3, because they made it more simple?

Complexity often DOES equal more fun!

sorry, but fun is fun, regardless of how complex it is. i'll take Galaga over anything that came out in the last year. that game is far from complex.

 

[SolidSnakex]

i don't understand how this makes the game less fun. on its own merits, the game amazing. if you don't like the game, that's fine, but get the fuck out of here with that whole "they made it easier, so it sucks" bullshit.
.

It makes it less fun because its too easy. Easier would be ok, making it where there's next to no challenge is going too far. The game exceeds on its art and its music, but the gameplay is a big downgrade.

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

Had a great time with RR4, so fun is fun. Complex/simple it's all about the play mechanics around the overall package at time.

 

[Amir0x]

hey, i like namco just as much, if not more than Nintendo. all of namco's games have simple controls. what's wrong with me liking that?

I don't think all of Namco's games have simple controls.

i don't understand that logic. in that case, do you feel that VF4 isn't as good as 3, because they made it more simple?

I don't agree with the assertion that VF4:Evo is "more simple" than VF3, but that's a debate for another time. Yes, I want my fighting games as complex as it can fucking get. I want it to be so complex that "normal" people have trouble getting into it. And then I want to MASTER that complexity, and rip the shit out of people who suck.

sorry, but fun is fun, regardless of how complex it is. i'll take Galaga over anything that came out in the last year. that game is far from complex.

That's cool, but I'm not stuck in nostalgia-ages so simple games are nice, but only if they offer the depth of complex games. I don't want simple, shallow games. Complex games are awesome because they usually have many layers, and there's a barrier to mastering them. That's the best type of game, because it gives me VALUE.

 

[imastalker co.]

I don't think all of Namco's games have simple controls.

can we atleast agree that 90-95% of their games have simple pick up & play controls?

Yes, I want my fighting games as complex as it can fucking get.

i wasn't asking.

That's cool, but I'm not stuck in nostalgia-ages so simple games are nice, but only if they offer the depth of complex games.

fuck man, im sorry to hear that. there's a lot of amazing shit out there, that's far from complex that you're missing out on. plenty of depth to boot. but apparently you need both of them for the game to be good.

I don't want simple, shallow games.

once again, im sorry to hear that. different strokes.

Complex games are awesome because they usually have many layers, and there's a barrier to mastering them. That's the best type of game, because it gives me VALUE.

you know, im not sure what you've been playing these last few generations, but you do realize that "simple" games are completely capable of offering that same experience. in some cases, believe it or not, it can actually make the game better.

p.s. nostalgia has nothing to do with Galaga. that game can hold its own against anything out there today.

 

[Tarazet]

It makes it less fun because its too easy. Easier would be ok, making it where there's next to no challenge is going too far. The game exceeds on its art and its music, but the gameplay is a big downgrade.

I really disagree - the DRT races are a real bitch. Enjoyable, but definitely not easy. And the challenges to get special cars are just impossible with DRT cars...

 

[Amir0x]

fuck man, im sorry to hear that. there's a lot of amazing shit out there, that's far from complex that you're missing out on. plenty of depth to boot. but apparently you need both of them for the game to be good.

I said, I don't want simple and SHALLOW. unfortunately, most of what you consider simple (from reading your tastes) is painfully shallow. Nintendogs and Animal Crossing, for instance. Two of the worst games ever made. Damn simple, though.

you know, im not sure what you've been playing these last few generations, but you do realize that "simple" games are completely capable of offering that same experience. in some cases, believe it or not, it can actually make the game better.

It's a very rare case when simplicity makes a game better (ala Katamari Damacy, Super Monkey Ball). It's more often the case that complexity goes hand in hand with depth, and depth is what I want.

There's always exception - those two I mentioned, plus MANY puzzle games to name a few, but it's definitely not the rule. Which is why I often laugh at the "simplicity" philosophy.

 

[imastalker co.]

I said, I don't want simple and SHALLOW.

i must bring up Galaga, R4, and Mario Party while im at it. simple, shallow, and fuckin loads of fun.

It's a very rare case when simplicity makes a game better

you don't seriously believe that do you? i mean crap, the deepest fighting game (well, let's say 3D to not open up another can) only uses 3 buttons. pretty simple no? anyways, i can think of a few bajillion games, that have simple as fuck controls, and are as deep as anything out there.

take historys word for it, it's not a rare thing.

There's always exception - those two I mentioned, plus MANY puzzle games to name a few, but it's definitely not the rule. Which is why I often laugh at the "simplicity" philosophy.

laugh if you'd like, but you've yet to give me any reasons as to way simple games = not as good as complex games. you know, aside from your own taste.

oh by the way, go check out Advance Wars, it's really really deep, and the controls are super cinchy at the same time.

 

[AbeFroman]

Hm, wow, no Warhawk. That's true. A very painful omission that is.

That hurts me too. A true classic that will return.

 

[Amir0x]

i must bring up Galaga, R4, and Mario Party while im at it. simple, shallow, and fuckin loads of fun.

R4 < Rage. Mario Party fucking sucks. Gtfo.

you don't seriously believe that do you? i mean crap, the deepest fighting game (well, let's say 3D to not open up another can) only uses 3 buttons. pretty simple no? anyways, i can think of a few bajillion games, that have simple as fuck controls, and are as deep as anything out there.

Complexity isn't necessarily derived from control schemes, because then you add combinations, stances, etc... so the gameplay itself can be complex. This is the disconnect, what you're not understanding. So I can say there's definitely multiple types of complex games, some deriving from the amount of buttons used and others from the gameplay systems (such as Disgaea).

 

[imastalker co.]

Complexity isn't necessarily derived from control schemes, because then you add combinations, stances, etc... so the gameplay itself can be complex.

but it's still simple right?

so in conclusion, simple games can be the following 3 things. shallow, complex, but more importantly, fun.

the end.

 

[Amir0x]

but it's still simple right? [

so in conclusion, simple games can be the following 3 things. shallow, complex, but more importantly, fun.

No. A game with a very complex gameplay system is not 'simple', it's the exact opposite. It's how you implement it.

Anyway, to your specific point, if a game is shallow, it's no longer fun.

 

[imastalker co.]

No. A game with a very complex gameplay system is not 'simple', it's the exact opposite. It's how you implement it.

i see what you're saying here, and control layouts aside, wouldn't you say that there's a ton of games out there, that have really complex gameplay systems, that are still, very very simple as far as the interface goes? im not asking whether you like it or not, im asking, does it exist? do you even find it possible?

Anyway, to your specific point, if a game is shallow, it's no longer fun.

a life time supply of truly amazing classics, are knocking at your front door dude. i think Mario 3 is first in line dude.

anyways, cheers my good friend. for today, it seems like we're all king today.

 

[Amir0x]

i see what you're saying here, and control layouts aside, wouldn't you say that there's a ton of games out there, that have really complex gameplay systems, that are still, very very simple as far as the interface goes? im not asking whether you like it or not, im asking, does it exist? do you even find it possible?

Of course, but we're still talking about slightly different things. If it's a complex gameplay system, I still define the game as complex. However, my theory is that you can strip down the gameplay interface and eventually make it accessible to most, or you can add in the complexity and make it accesible to less. The most truly genius games do BOTH. It's very hard to strike a good balance. But I definitely do NOT think simplicity is the answer, or the key, to better games.

a life time supply of truly amazing classics, are knocking at your front door dude. i think Mario 3 is first in line dude.

anyways, cheers my good friend. for today, it seems like we're all king today.

It seems how we define 'shallow' is pretty different all things considered, but if you can enjoy that garbage that gets passed off as shallow 50 dollar entertainment be my guest.

I'll just demand a bit more.

 

[Mihail]

Mario 3 is shallow now?

Wtf are you guys yakking about? Just say what you want to say without twisting each others' words around in an effort to make yourself look smarter.

You're both mixing around two different scales:

1. Shallow to Deep
2. Simple to Complex

and even with all this mixing around I have yet to understand your points.

A simple game can be shallow... such as Katamari. You basically roll... and then you roll. Once you get the hang of that, there's not much to improve on.

A simple game can be deep. Mario 3 is an example of this, for each level can be played at largely varying skill levels, with different results. Soulcalibur is another example. There are no complex weak, strong, fierce, punch, etc. buttons. There are only attack TYPES: horizontal, vertical, kick -- very simple. But the depth that the combinations allow is tremendous.

A complex game can be shallow. Most FPSs are an example of this. They are very complicated to control, but the general case is that once you get good at aiming/strafing, you're good at the game. (Notice I said most.)

A complex game can be deep. I can't think of too many examples of this outside of some fighting games... maybe games like 2D Castlevanias.

You both seem to agree on this (not on the examples, but on the concepts) so stop your jibber-jabbering.

EDIT: I am sad Gitaroo-Man is not on the list, but I can't say I was hopeful.

 

[Soul4ger]

HEY YOU GUYS REMEMBER WHEN THIS THREAD WAS FUN?

 

[imastalker co.]

But I definitely do NOT think simplicity is the answer, or the key, to better games.

hey, don't go putting words in my mouth. i never said simple is the key, or that it makes it better. all i said is, simple, can be just as deep as anything out there. if a game requires a complex interface, so be it.

It seems how we define 'shallow' is pretty different all things considered, but if you can enjoy that garbage that gets passed off as shallow 50 dollar entertainment be my guest.

dude, you really need to watch what you say man. don't go saying shit you can't take back man. implying that mario 3 is garbage? that shit'll get you disowned by some dude.

anyways, apparently we do have a different idea of what shallow is.... which, i find strange.

let me shoot some at you, and you give me a "good shallow" or "bad shallow", and why, and then i think we'll be able to get the ball rolling on this one.

Rolling Thunder
Time Crisis
Virtua Tennis
Double Dragon
Mega Man
F-Zero

in any case, cheers again my friend.

 

[imastalker co.]

You're both mixing around two different scales:

1. Shallow to Deep
2. Simple to Complex

definitely the reason we're coming off as 2 drunk dudes trying to pillow fight.

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

Mario 3 is shallow now?

Wtf are you guys yakking about? Just say what you want to say without twisting each others' words around in an effort to make yourself look smarter.

You're both mixing around two different scales:

1. Shallow to Deep
2. Simple to Complex

and even with all this mixing around I have yet to understand your points.

A simple game can be shallow... such as Katamari. You basically roll... and then you roll. Once you get the hang of that, there's not much to improve on.

A simple game can be deep. Mario 3 is an example of this, for each level can be played at largely varying skill levels, with different results. Soulcalibur is another example. There are no complex weak, strong, fierce, punch, etc. buttons. There are only attack TYPES: horizontal, vertical, kick -- very simple. But the depth that the combinations allow is tremendous.

A complex game can be shallow. Most FPSs are an example of this. They are very complicated to control, but the general case is that once you get good at aiming/strafing, you're good at the game. (Notice I said most.)

A complex game can be deep. I can't think of too many examples of this outside of some fighting games... maybe games like 2D Castlevanias.

You both seem to agree on this (not on the examples, but on the concepts) so stop your jibber-jabbering.

EDIT: I am sad Gitaroo-Man is not on the list, but I can't say I was hopeful.

Bingo, everything is turning a bit too absolute in definitions.


Simple, shallow, deep, complex, the games you listed, it's all fun. It's implementation of the mechanics that's important, complex or simple is just the accessiblity of it all.

 

[M3wThr33]

I Own:

1995
Jumping Flash
1996
Super Puzzle Fighter II Turbo
1997
Resident Evil 2
1998
Crash Bandicoot 3: Warped
Metal Gear Solid
1999
Ape Escape
Crash Team Racing
Medal of Honor
2000
Spider-Man
Syphon Filter
2001
Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance
Dance Dance Revolution
Devil May Cry
GTA III
Jak and Daxter: The Precursor Legacy
SSX Tricky
Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3
2002
GTA: Vice City
Kingdom Hearts
2003
.Hack
Amplitude
Beyond Good and Evil
Madden NFL 2004
Prince of Persia: Sands of Time
Soul Calibur II
Virtua Fighter 4: Evolution
2004
Burnout 3: Takedown
Katamari Damacy
Onimusha 3: Demon Siege
Ratchet and Clank: Up Your Arsenal
2005
Resident Evil 4

Hrmm... I guess that's... something

 

[HomerSimpson-Man]

I must own like 20+ games on that list, and there are still some I need to pick still on that list.

 

[DaCocoBrova]

Tomb Raider II

And that's where I stopped.

 

[Apharmd Battler]

Is this list in the current issue?

 

[Zweisy1]

At least R-Type Delta is on the list.. probably the best PS1 game.

It's good to see that some of the FF games didnt make it too.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

I think that's a pretty decent list.

It seems to be more "what was cool at the time" and does seem to ding sequels that maybe didn't have as much impact as the original (Wipeout series, for instance). Still, doesn't explain Crash Bandicoot or Tomb Raider choices. I woudl have put up CB2 as the best of the series. 3 was good, but was more of the same, really.

And yeah, I enjoyed the heck out of all of them. They were skill-based platformers in an era where exploration was dominant, and I preferred them.

I was expecting them to leave off the Oddworld games, and glad they didn't. Abe's Oddesee was better, IMHO. Very fresh game at the time.

It also refects the lean years pretty well -- 99, 2000. Those were dire for gaming, in my view. The Dreamcast gets all sorts of nostalgic praise that I think it doesn't deserve, becuase it was released in a desert.

 

[Fallout-NL]

No Warhawk? Tomb Raider 2 but not the original? Bizarre.

Yeah I missed Warhawk as well, that game kicked ass.

 

[Wax Free Vanilla]

they forgot two,

tsc tsc, this magazine is garbage.

 

[stewy]

they forgot two,

tsc tsc, this magazine is garbage.

Psygnosis' F1 games were so incredible on the PS1. That was the series that actually convinced me to buy the system.

 

[BuddyC]

Where's Ghost in the Shell (PSX)? Or Zone of the Enders 2?

I'm sure there are other problems too (as they are always problems with these top 100 lists), but I'm afraid to look deeper. Just not worth the hassle, the complaining, and the part where none of that would really matter.

 

[Willy Wanka]

Needs more Colin McRae 2.0.

 

[Musashi Wins!]

needs some Guitar Hero.
and some Culdcept.

 

[teruterubozu]

I must be the only one who likes Parasite Eve. Plus no Tekken whatsoever, but a nod to Soul Blade? WTF?
This is a really bizarre list.

 

[Amir0x]

Where's Ghost in the Shell (PSX)? Or Zone of the Enders 2?

I'm sure there are other problems too (as they are always problems with these top 100 lists), but I'm afraid to look deeper. Just not worth the hassle, the complaining, and the part where none of that would really matter.

Zone of the Enders 2 is on the list.

Also, Ghost in the Shell (PSX) is the one where you can be the robot that walked upsidedown and on ceilings, right? I didn't very much like that game, but then again i have no connection to the anime.

 

[BuddyC]

Zone of the Enders 2 is on the list.

Haha, there it is. I skimmed over HomerSimpson-Man's comments regarding that and thought he was complaining it wasn't on the list. You'd think I'd have learned to not skim these threads by now.

Also, Ghost in the Shell (PSX) is the one where you can be the robot that walked upsidedown and on ceilings, right? I didn't very much like that game, but then again i have no connection to the anime.

Yea, that was it. I'm not a huge fan of the anime/manga myself either, but it's certainly the best GiTS game to date. It was the combination of frantic Panzer Dragoon action (complete with the "hold down the attack button to target everyone" lock-on system) with the free-roaming Spider-Man-esque wall crawling that made the game for me.

 

[Amir0x]

Yea, that was it. I'm not a huge fan of the anime/manga myself either, but it's certainly the best GiTS game to date. It was the combination of frantic Panzer Dragoon action (complete with the "hold down the attack button to target everyone" lock-on system) with the free-roaming Spider-Man-esque wall crawling that made the game for me.

I remember the spider-man esque walking felt really awkward at the time, which is part what turned me off. But it's been a long time, maybe if I can get passed the grainy anime footage and PSX-era visuals I'll try it if I find it again.

 

[BuddyC]

I remember the spider-man esque walking felt really awkward at the time, which is part what turned me off. But it's been a long time, maybe if I can get passed the grainy anime footage and PSX-era visuals I'll try it if I find it again.

Well, it's a bit dated now, invisible walls and all, but I think it's still rather enjoyable. The wall climbing took a bit of getting used to due to the slightly wonky camera, but back in those days, I had so much free time that I ended up getting the hang of it after a bit and replaying certain missions ad nauseum.

Be interesting to hear a more modern take on the matter, if you do happen to find it.

 

[Wax Free Vanilla]

Psygnosis' F1 games were so incredible on the PS1. That was the series that actually convinced me to buy the system.

same here. the first time i saw formula 1 running on playstation in my local game store was the day i became a playstation fan for life.

but then sega had to come along and poach bizarre creations to create msr for dreamcast, thus plunging the formula one franchise into a state mediocrity for many years, until it finally rose to the summit this year with the excellent formula one 05. i have high hopes for the ps3 version from what the developers have planned - cant wait.

 

[djtiesto]

I'd remove:
Bloom Omen: Legacy of Kain
Colony Wars (I've never heard of this game even )
Parappa the Rapper
Crash Bandicoot 3: Warped
Oddworld: Abe's Exodus
Spyro the Dragon
Tenchu: Stealth Assassins
Tomb Raider II
Crash Team Racing
Medal of Honor
Rayman 2: The Great Escape
Smuggler's Run
Spider-Man
Syphon Filter
ATV: Offroad Fury
Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance
Jak and Daxter: The Precursor Legacy
NBA Street
Red Faction
SSX Tricky
Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3
Fatal Frame
Kingdom Hearts
Mark of Kri, The (Never heard of this game either)
Medal of Honor: Frontline
Need for Speed: Hot Pursuit 2
.Hack
Freedom Fighters
High Heat Major League Baseball 2004
Madden NFL 2004
Burnout 3: Takedown
Final Fantasy XI
James Bond 007: Everything or Nothing
Tiger Woods PGA Tour 2005
Dynasty Warriors 5
Eyetoy: Kinetic
Lego Star Wars
Midnight Club 3: Dub Edition
SOCOM 3: U.S. Navy Seals
Starwars: Battlefront II
Time Splitters: Future Perfect
Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory

And I'd add:
Star Ocean 2
Valkyrie Profile
DQ8

 

[Error Macro]

What? No Destruction Derby 2 for 1996?!

The entire internet has been discredited.



[edit]

Also, 1995 is seriously lacking Doom. Not just the best port, but the best version of the game, by far.

 

[Amir0x]

Colony Wars (I've never heard of this game even )

Wow! You should really go look for it. It's not even the best Colony Wars game though imo, but they are all phenomenal. Some of the best truly forgotten gems of the PSX-era. Totally justified for being on the list.

Also, Crash Team Racing was like the only fantastic non-Nintendo kart racer ever.

 

[Snaku]

FFX makes the list, but not FFIX?! :lol

/insert FFX laughing scene

 

[Agent X]

Here's what I've got from that list.

1995

Wipeout

1996

(none)

1997

Castlevania: Symphony of the Night
Colony Wars

1998

Crash Bandicoot 3: Warped
Gran Turismo

1999

Crash Team Racing
Medal of Honor
R-Type Delta
Street Fighter Alpha 3

2000

(none)

2001

ICO
Jak and Daxter: The Precursor Legacy
Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3

2002

GTA: Vice City
Mark of Kri, The
Medal of Honor: Frontline
Rez

2003

Amplitude
Beyond Good and Evil
Virtua Fighter 4: Evolution

2004

Burnout 3: Takedown
GTA: San Andreas
Katamari Damacy
Ratchet and Clank: Up Your Arsenal

2005

Gran Turismo 4
Lumines
Shadow of the Colossus

 

[Jive Turkey]

This list is completely invalid for including a large number of shit titles and/or multiplatform games.

Not that multiplatform games are bad but in a top 100 PlayStation games list I would hope at least 90 of them would be exclusive.

 

[human5892]

I agree -- a list entitled "Playstation Essentials" should probably be limited to games you can only get on a Playstation.