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[Fersis]

Pretty sure Jeff has said they will not introduce multiple heroes at once. That would be a balancing control nightmare. You never introduce two new variables into a system at once.

Jeff also said everyone was playing Symmetra wrong.

Bring on multiple new characters! I want the chaos of the Beta days again.

Also the community complained when during the beta Blizzy-B would release several characters at a time.

 

[Red Arremer]

Pretty sure Jeff has said they will not introduce multiple heroes at once. That would be a balancing control nightmare. You never introduce two new variables into a system at once.

That doesn't mean they can't reveal 2 heroes at once.

 

[JeremyEtcetera]

So, according to those who are against multiple hero releases, how long does it take to determine if a new hero is broken or not? A couple weeks? A month? 3 months? 6?

 

[Karsticles]

The game isn't remotely balanced right now, so I don't see the problem with jacking it up further.

 

[finalflame]

That doesn't mean they can't reveal 2 heroes at once.

Reveal in an animated short? Sure. Release to PTR/detail the heroes abilities and role? No.

The game isn't remotely balanced right now, so I don't see the problem with jacking it up further.

Please expand.

 

[Data West]

you know, hanzo and widow dont have to be in every qp match

 

[Garrett Hawke]

you know, hanzo and widow dont have to be in every qp match

sounds fake

 

[finalflame]

you know, hanzo and widow dont have to be in every qp match

 

[Red Arremer]

Reveal in an animated short? Sure. Release to PTR/detail the heroes abilities and role? No.

I don't see how they couldn't detail the hero role either. Like, I get if the character's still in the stage where they're not 100% on the skills yet to not reveal those, but the role certainly is determined long before that.

Reminder that Jeff Kaplan said that they're working on multiple heroes, as well.

 

[JeremyEtcetera]

Please expand.

I'm going to guess that Karsticles is thinking of Ana. I almost thought about bringing her up myself but I refrained.

 

[The Artful Dodger]

you know, hanzo and widow dont have to be in every qp match

What's weirder is when the team stalls a bit taking a point or pushing a cart so the healer (or tank) switches to a widow or hanzo...

 

[Karsticles]

Reveal in an animated short? Sure. Release to PTR/detail the heroes abilities and role? No.



Please expand.

A balanced game would see all heroes being used at a similar rate in competitive play. Not this kind of massive curve:

https://www.overbuff.com/blog/2017-02-22-overwatch-hero-tier-list-and-meta-report-season-3-review

In particular, Ana, Reinhardt, and Soldier are way too strong in this game at all levels of play. Lucio and Zarya mostly shine at the higher levels.

Meanwhile, a huge portion of the cast (mostly defense heroes) are borderline unusable in high level play. You can look at a lot of the characters and say "Why?", and there isn't a clear answer right now. Only a few characters have defining traits that make a team say "We need this!", while the rest are mishmashes of DPS and minor utility.

What's the worst that throwing 2 new heroes in could do to the game?

I'm going to guess that Karsticles is thinking of Ana. I almost thought about bringing her up myself but I refrained.

Ana is to healers as Reinhardt is to tanks - she makes you wonder why Blizzard even bothered to create other options (RIP D.va).

 

[RecRoulette]

Also the community complained when during the beta Blizzy-B would release several characters at a time.

Yeah, the community also complained about a decent competitive mode so now we have the clusterfuck known as the current competitive mode.

 

[Karsticles]

Yeah, the community also complained about a decent competitive mode so now we have the clusterfuck known as the current competitive mode.

What changed in this regard?

 

[Joshmyersbv]

A balanced game would see all heroes being used at a similar rate in competitive play. Not this kind of massive curve:

https://www.overbuff.com/blog/2017-02-22-overwatch-hero-tier-list-and-meta-report-season-3-review

I'm absolutely shocked none of the pros pick Junkrat.

 

[RecRoulette]

What changed in this regard?

It was basically Hearthstone's ranked mode. Here are the details.

I sort of understand why people didn't like it, it's completely focused on wins and losses, with no way to factor in individual performance. But I feel like the current competitive mode doesn't really do that well either. It's a lot of complicated guesswork that still heavily relies on wins and losses.

 

[Data West]

I'm absolutely shocked none of the pros pick Junkrat.

I have to imagine if anyone else gets a second ult it'll be Junkrat.

With all the Pharah buffs there's just very little reason to play him. And the Bastion buff will make him exceed Junkrat quicker in busting barriers with better survivability

 

[Antiwhippy]

I'm absolutely shocked none of the pros pick Junkrat.

Are you?

Also a game where everyone is picked equally is damn near impossible. We're actually in a pretty good state currently.

 

[KanameYuuki]

I wonder how bad new bastion is going to be on ps4, he is already a handful, was he too easy to kill on pc? that passive sounds unnecessary for console.

QP harder than usual now that's off season and tons of players with golden weapons.

 

[Anne]

When you look at Overwatch practically it's actually pretty balanced atm. Yeah, there are high and low usage rates, but you can't really expect everybody to be that high of pickrate. There's a lot of strat diversity right now, an the lesser picked heroes do come out sometimes and are used in interesting ways.

Reminder that good balance doesn't actually mean everybody is picked more or less equally.

 

[Maximo]

A balanced game would see all heroes being used at a similar rate in competitive play. Not this kind of massive curve:

I can't think of a single game with this many *Classes/Hero's* that has every single one of them be playable at high level play,

 

[Joshmyersbv]

I have to imagine if anyone else gets a second ult it'll be Junkrat.

With all the Pharah buffs there's just very little reason to play him. And the Bastion buff will make him exceed Junkrat quicker in busting barriers with better survivability

Yeah I hear a lot of people wanting a Winston buff or a McCree buff (mostly console players) but Junkrat should be a priority. Most of the games I see him in he gets used to bust Reins shield at a choke or on high ground shooting randomly down at people. I think its going to take more than just a new ult to make him more viable. Unless it benefits the whole team in some way.

 

[Red Arremer]

A balanced game would see all heroes being used at a similar rate in competitive play. Not this kind of massive curve:

In all fairness, this is an extremely difficult feat to acquire, especially given that different modes and maps will require different skillsets.
There's maps on which, say, Widowmaker is a lot better than she is on others.

Obviously there's characters with skillsets that are universally good because of some fundamental mechanic (Rein, Ana, Lucio, and it usually flipflops between 76 and McCree for the main DPS).

The way this game is mechanically set up also will never have all heroes being used at a similar rate ever, since some heroes are clearly more built to be used on defense (e.g. the turret characters), while other characters excel at one particular mode. For instance Tracer is very good at point capture maps, while she is not as useful on payloads or hybrids once the point is capped.

Niche characters should be allowed to exist.

 

[Joshmyersbv]

Are you?

Also a game where everyone is picked equally is damn near impossible. We're actually in a pretty good state currently.

Oh I was just joking and I don't doubt the current meta being good in any way. After the three tank meta I'll take anything lol.

 

[Nimby]

I think it's fair to say that the highs are too high, and the lows are too low. But right now, everyone is pretty viable. Ana is probably too strong still, at least compared to Mercy and Zen, heroes like Junkrat, Torb, and Symmetra are still super niche (and Bastion if his buffs don't help him out).

 

[Red Arremer]

Also, looking at that usage chart, the only characters that weren't picked are the ones with unreliable damage (Junkrat and Hanzo), while everybody else was picked.
Even Torbjörn. Even pre-buff Bastion was picked once.

I think that's pretty solid.

 

[Veelk]

While true pick equality is a pipe dream, I think it's not good that someone like Soldier is picked on literally every map. I mean, we complain about Reinhardt's necessity, but there is never a game where Soldier isn't one of the primary DPS dealers. I want him knocked the fuck down.

 

[Data West]

Yeah I hear a lot of people wanting a Winston buff or a McCree buff (mostly console players) but Junkrat should be a priority. Most of the games I see him in he gets used to bust Reins shield at a choke or on high ground shooting randomly down at people. I think its going to take more than just a new ult to make him more viable. Unless it benefits the whole team in some way.

you still saw him a lot more than bastion for a long time in GM games so i dont think he's that bad but he has the worst ult in the game(there are insane people that think widows is bad) and feeds ana heals too easily

if they ever changed him i think it would just be a new ult or something.

 

[Antiwhippy]

I feel like I see torbjorn picked but I barely see him work.

Like once in every 20 matches maybe. Pro games anyway.

 

[hypernima]

Playing in a Masters MMR made the game so much fun earlier. Goals to aim for S4 I guess.

 

[Antiwhippy]

Also apparently the carbon entertainment thing is starting soon?

https://www.twitch.tv/carbonentertainment

 

[Anne]

While true pick equality is a pipe dream, I think it's not good that someone like Soldier is picked on literally every map. I mean, we complain about Reinhardt's necessity, but there is never a game where Soldier isn't one of the primary DPS dealers. I want him knocked the fuck down.

"Soldier's in every single game"

Has a 43% pick rate, and the stats point to him being more a of a defense specialist. Yeah yeah, I know I know, console. Just pointing out where he's at elsewhere.

 

[Veelk]

"Soldier's in every single game"

Has a 43% pick rate, and the stats point to him being more a of a defense specialist. Yeah yeah, I know I know, console. Just pointing out where he's at elsewhere.

It feels unfair that I have to post a "on console" disclaimer for literally every post I make about balance, lest it be lost that I am talking about the stats for him everywhere.

Still, I'll probably be bitching about Soldier even when I do migrate to PC. He could have a 10% pickrate and I'd still be annoyed with him. He just doesn't add that much to the game in terms of fun for me.

 

[Antiwhippy]

Thing is blizzard don't balance for console. At all.

 

[Veelk]

Thing is blizzard don't balance for console. At all.

Which is frustrating, because 1. they said they would and 2. it feels like it should be easy to do so. 95% of the balance of PC is transferable. They really only have to account for slightly lesser aiming capability, and that's only especially relevant to a few characters.

Edit: Wow, Hammer's lost but that was a hell of a last ditch effort

 

[cyborg009]

Hammers so clutch at the end.

 

[JeremyEtcetera]

Thing is blizzard don't balance for console. At all.

Wait what? They did. Torb and Symmetra turrets are still nerfed on console. Also the movement speed of certain faster characters are slower on console than pc(so console players can actually hit them).

They only make big changes like this to console Overwatch if there is something that is causing a huge problem for the community. Turrets were a problem so they were nerfed back then. Right now, the only thing console Overwatch community is pissed about is the fact that high diamond to grandmaster ranks have quite a few players using mouse and keyboard/Xim4, which pretty much once every 2-3 games you'll find one McCree, Soldier, or Hanzo player using this enhanced way to aim wrecking an entire enemy team and it makes it incredibly difficult to climb that ladder if you're stuck with a controller.

 

[antitrop]

Ayyy, I hit top 2000 Mercy in QP

 

[Blu(e)]

Mercy in QP

Bless your heart.

 

[Antiwhippy]

I see people instalock mercy in QP often enough that it disturbs me.

 

[Skii]

Ayyy, I hit top 2000 Mercy in QP

Man that win to loss ratio is really good for a hero that has very little mechanical control over a game. Surprised you haven't cracked master tbh. Then again, trying to crack master with Mercy lul.

 

[antitrop]

I see people instalock mercy in QP often enough that it disturbs me.

Ana Nerf Waiting Room

 

[Antiwhippy]

Ana Nerf Waiting Room

Nah, it's more like I see these mercies running around dying constantly due to the unco-ordinated nature of QP and go "are you guys like masochists or something?"

 

[Gorillaz]

Ayyy, I hit top 2000 Mercy in QP

I feel like it's almost impossible for me to just hit 2000 for any character

 

[antitrop]

Surprised you haven't cracked master tbh. Then again, trying to crack master with Mercy lul.

I played Ana/Lucio in S3. I'm gonna break out Zen again for S4 and make a serious push for Master.

 

[Karsticles]

I'm absolutely shocked none of the pros pick Junkrat.

A pro Genji encourages everyone to pub him, but why doesn't this have a correlative effect as well?

It was basically Hearthstone's ranked mode. Here are the details.

I sort of understand why people didn't like it, it's completely focused on wins and losses, with no way to factor in individual performance. But I feel like the current competitive mode doesn't really do that well either. It's a lot of complicated guesswork that still heavily relies on wins and losses.

Thank you for sharing that.

I have to imagine if anyone else gets a second ult it'll be Junkrat.

With all the Pharah buffs there's just very little reason to play him. And the Bastion buff will make him exceed Junkrat quicker in busting barriers with better survivability

Is Junkrat's ult really considered that bad?

When you look at Overwatch practically it's actually pretty balanced atm. Yeah, there are high and low usage rates, but you can't really expect everybody to be that high of pickrate. There's a lot of strat diversity right now, an the lesser picked heroes do come out sometimes and are used in interesting ways.

Reminder that good balance doesn't actually mean everybody is picked more or less equally.

I agree with you that balance =/= pick rate, but I think some heroes stand out to an offensive degree right now. Ana and Reinhardt are probably #1 and #2 for me.

It's not so much that some of the pickrates are low (which is problematic), but that some are extremely high.

That said, my point wasn't that the game is poorly balanced, but rather that there's nothing to lose in the game's current state of balance by releasing two heroes at once - this game is not a fine dish at the moment when it comes to balance.

I can't think of a single game with this many *Classes/Hero's* that has every single one of them be playable at high level play,

I wasn't arguing this, though.

In all fairness, this is an extremely difficult feat to acquire, especially given that different modes and maps will require different skillsets.
There's maps on which, say, Widowmaker is a lot better than she is on others.

Obviously there's characters with skillsets that are universally good because of some fundamental mechanic (Rein, Ana, Lucio, and it usually flipflops between 76 and McCree for the main DPS).

The way this game is mechanically set up also will never have all heroes being used at a similar rate ever, since some heroes are clearly more built to be used on defense (e.g. the turret characters), while other characters excel at one particular mode. For instance Tracer is very good at point capture maps, while she is not as useful on payloads or hybrids once the point is capped.

Niche characters should be allowed to exist.

I don't disagree with any of this.

While true pick equality is a pipe dream, I think it's not good that someone like Soldier is picked on literally every map. I mean, we complain about Reinhardt's necessity, but there is never a game where Soldier isn't one of the primary DPS dealers. I want him knocked the fuck down.

I also agree with your general sentiment.

 

[Data West]

lass is breaking over huge donations right now

 

[Anne]

I've been top 1k on Overbuff QP stats for basically all the mainline DPS at some point or another orz

My QP days are basically done now though. Only going to play it for groups with lower level friends.

 

[Ghost is Bad]

time to feed my ass off tomorrow

 

[exYle]

Wait what? They did. Torb and Symmetra turrets are still nerfed on console. Also the movement speed of certain faster characters are slower on console than pc(so console players can actually hit them).

They only make big changes like this to console Overwatch if there is something that is causing a huge problem for the community. Turrets were a problem so they were nerfed back then. Right now, the only thing console Overwatch community is pissed about is the fact that high diamond to grandmaster ranks have quite a few players using mouse and keyboard/Xim4, which pretty much once every 2-3 games you'll find one McCree, Soldier, or Hanzo player using this enhanced way to aim wrecking an entire enemy team and it makes it incredibly difficult to climb that ladder if you're stuck with a controller.

Well that was back last summer, and it was a problem only because of hero stacking. Moreover, nobody considered Symmetra's turrets to need a nerf. So they're only getting rebalanced now, long after they were a real problem

Additionally, there are heroes who are problematic to fight against on console, such as Pharah, Tracer, and arguably the new Symmetra, but those have never been looked at.

And honestly the K&M problem is a bit of a boogeyman - there may be some players who do play like that but I feel it is nowhere near as widespread as people think.