If I were to pick my internal Nintendo team to work on a new Metroid it would be lead by Hiroyuki Kimura, Takahiro Harada, Tomoyoshi Yamana and Takehiko Hosokawa
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Past and Future: Yoshio Sakamoto / Team Sakamoto
- Thread starter Shikamaru Ninja
- Start date
Just adding one more interesting japanese interview of this crazy guy, translated by GliiterBerri : http://www.glitterberri.com/developer-interviews/yoshio-sakamoto-talks-metroid/
Alex_Mexico
Member
The fact that they got the Prime Trilogy on the WiiU eShop and not Other M gives me high hopes that Nintendo knows where they clearly stumbled and that they're not thinking "the game was great, they just didn't get it!".
Also it makes me wonder if they're threading ground to announced new 3D Metroid from Retro. A new original sub series, though. I'm confident they're done with Prime.
people are being too harsh on him.
nintendo tried to be different with other m. and it was. this game isnt a mainline game, so where is the point of bashing the game. i know plenty of people who enjoyed this game, while all i do read on the internet is, that the game sucked.
sad to read such stuff.
nintendo tried to be different with other m. and it was. this game isnt a mainline game, so where is the point of bashing the game. i know plenty of people who enjoyed this game, while all i do read on the internet is, that the game sucked.
sad to read such stuff.
Alex_Mexico
Member
What? Sakamoto actually made everything in his power to make Other M as canon as possible. Meanwhile he also wrote out of this canon the three most critically acclaimed Metroids of the last 15 years (and the only ones he wasn't directly involved with); the Prime Trilogy.
It hurts to say it but it is with great pain that I tell you: until Nintendo writes Other M out of canon, reboots the franchise or just ignores it then M:OM is very much a mainline game. More so than the sublime Metroid Prime.
Urgh. This opinion is awful and I'm tired of seeing it. Sakamoto is responsible for more than Other M, the OP even took the time to list out the games he's worked on so you can't even play the ignorance card here.
Other M is just one game. Boo hoo hoo you didn't like it, we get it. Do you honestly have to keep going on about it? It's coming up to five years now so just play another game, replay the Prime triology if you must, just move on!
And guess what? Other people like his other recent games like Wario Ware, Rhythm Tengoku and Tamadochi Life so they don't see him as a "horrible monster of a person". They are also more than one game.
The day before Metroid: Other M released in Japan Sakamoto said this:
Past, Present and Future of Metroid - Revogamers - Sept 1, 2010
http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/translation/23982/yoshio-sakamoto-interview
When Metroid Prime was released in Japan Sakamoto said this in 2003:
Metroid Prime and Metroid Fusion Staff Interview - NOM 2003
http://www.metroid-database.com/features/nomsakamoto.php
The Metroid Prime Trilogy collection from 2009 came with an art book that presents the Prime Trilogy as a self-contained story set after the events of Metroid 1.
http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Metroid_Prime_Trilogy_art_booklet
"Mission Complete. Samus’s ship flies off into the depths of space, thus closing the curtain on the story of Phazon."
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
Alex_Mexico
Member
I don't think that was the case. The game was a few weeks old only. It takes longer for things to settle in and form a general opinion.
I also loathe his remark about "yeah Prime is canon and shit but my doormat Samus with daddy issues is the real one. Any previous Samus from the west that might've shown a little more independence is the wrong Samus."
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
He said it was the real one to him, and he's entitled to that opinion. That doesn't mean he intends to force it down fans' throats now that he knows what they think of it.
And I didn't mean to say he was aware of the criticism at the time of the interview. I meant that since he was aware there was a potential issue, I think it makes more sense to assume he's been listening to the criticism over the following years than to assume he hasn't.
Neff
Member
I've never seen a collective so upset by a game, so unwilling to look at its good points, so dedicated to dragging it through the mud as Other M's detractors. It's cast a spell of vitriol unlike anything I've ever seen in gaming.
It's like, directing several highly-acclaimed Metroid titles suddenly means nothing, and that Sakamoto must forever be kept as far away from the series as possible in the eyes of some.
Like I said, George Lucas syndrome at play. Nerds never forgive.
Would you like some cheese with that whine?
Its giving Brawl a run for its money.
I do no longer engage because the arguments are all starting to go in circles. It's insane how people can accuse the man for being a "creep" because he refers to the character he created and shaped his career and life as his "daughter", yet people can't let go of a commercial product released half a decade ago.
Uh-huh. So you haven't accused all nay-sayers of collectively aiming to absolutely bad-mouth the game in order to detract? Right.
Neff
Member
I've made an observation that the hyperbole and excessive criticism from a large number of message board posters isn't remotely reflective of the game's minor shortcomings, or its largely favourable critical reception. The game touched a nerve in ways few have, for seemingly rather superficial reasons.
The story isn't minor if it gets pushed in your face. The deconstruction of the protagonist is a valid reason for fans to be upset about. Get off your high horse.
Neff
Member
No, I'll stay on it, I think. Using story as a critical barometer, or being invested in a character (which never had much of a personality up until Other M anyway) to the point where an unwanted 'deviation' of it is able to ruin one's experience, are terrible reasons to dismiss an otherwise fine game, imo.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
But the shortcomings are not minor nor superficial, and the criticisms are not hyperbolic. The game pretty much has no redeeming values whatsoever, it's really that bad.
But Samus does flips while jumping, that clearly means it's a loyal continuation of traditional 2D Metroid gameplay.
Yeah, most of the interviews were around launch so there's been more time for feedback but even during his European tour around the time of the Japanese release Sakamoto reiterated in several interviews about taking feedback from fans.
Metroid: Other M Yoshio Sakamoto interview - GameSpot Sept 20, 2010 (posted)
https://youtu.be/up8GLJ0aVVo
Yoshio Sakamoto discusses Metroid 64, Metroid Dread and the 3DS - gamesTM Sept 3, 2010
http://www.gamestm.co.uk/features/y...e-unwritten-future-of-the-warioware-series/2/
He also mentioned reading internet comments from fans when the game was in development.
Reinventing Metroid - Eurogamer June 2010
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/reinventing-metroid-interview?page=2
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
No, he, did, not, godfucking dammit stop spreading that lie, he never said the prime games weren't canon, he only reiterated that they were spinoffs, which THEY WERE
Neff
Member
Most of Other M's criticism appears to come down to the bloated, loquacious narrative and a portrayal of Samus which jars with expectations of players who've filled in the blanks for themselves over the years. And that's fair enough, they aren't really important components of the game. But I've never heard solid, damning criticism of the game's controls, mechanics, design, pacing or structure, all of which hold up very well, even now. They just seem to get the blame too, and the game becomes uniformly awful across the board because people really are that upset about the lame portrayal of a fictional space lady.
Okay.
tlyom. They were important enough for the developer to add loads of unskippable cutscenes that you can even watch on their own.
And now you're just making stuff up. No, there is criticism of the gameplay, yes, it's not THAT grave, no, people don't suddenly, unduly shit on the gameplay. You can ride that "story isn't important/only gameplay matters" narrative to death, the story in this game is a hard to ignore, central part of the experience.
Even if you take the "story" out of the equation, you're still stuck with d-pad controls in a 3D environment, pixel hunting games, really visually boring environments (the only other perpetrator of this was Prime 2), the game essentially being a lesser HD remake of Fusion, pretty stark linearity, those sections where they make you walk very slowly for SOME reason, and the music is whack, there's hardly any music. And can you really discard story in a game that's so proud of it it has a movie mode?
The game game components of Other M are not as damning as its story maybe, but they're all very subpar. The game's just not very interesting.
If you've never heard criticism of the D-pad controls, the Wii-remote aiming, the hyper-linear level design, the cheap dodge maneuver, the pixel hunts, etc then you must have been living under the rock.
Other M is not a terrible game, generally it feels smooth to play and the action is satisfying enough. But it has many, many flaws before we even get to the story (which is a standard Alien ripoff with added misogyny). The basic gameplay is OK but the game designed around it is very crude. Most of the game is spent moving in a straight line to the next corridor.
Neff
Member
You can skip the cutscenes after your first playthrough. If you wanted to skip them during your first playthrough, then surely story isn't that important.
And I've heard lots of criticism, but none of it convincing or based upon anything tangible. It's usually along the lines of "I can't aim right", or "these controls should be analog" despite the huge majority of the game's environment utilising 45° and 90° angles, or "I don't like the scanning sections" in a game which has like 4 scenes in total compared to games like Metroid Prime where you're scanning every few minutes.
If the kind of criticism Other M usually receives regarding gameplay had any basis in reality, it'd have to be broken beyond redemption, rather than the slightly unorthodox detour in formula that it is. Franchise 'betrayal' or not, it's still a solid title with adequate design and impressive production values.
But no, Sakamoto is the devil and must be forbidden from ever allowing his foul presence near Metroid ever again.
I could describe any Metroid game like this if I wanted to.
No you couldn't. They have environmental puzzles, you have to think about your route through the level, they require some complex platforming. You have to search the environment for clues.
Other M is stripped down to an extreme degree, Prime and Super are on a completely different level in terms of complexity. I genuinely don't remember a room in Other M that had more than 2 doors. One you go in, one you go out. Going from Prime's incredible 3D map to the FFXIII-esque flatness of Other M is depressing.
Neff
Member
The difference really is that some Metroids are heavy on backtracking, while Other M is not. And some Metroids are non-linear, and some, like Metroid II, Fusion, and Other M, are not.
Structure aside, Other M has more than its share of environment puzzles, platforming, wall-hopping, Morph Ball-ing through tunnels, hidden powerups, shortcuts and so forth. It all depends on how selective your memory is.
Structure aside, Other M has more than its share of environment puzzles, platforming, wall-hopping, Morph Ball-ing through tunnels, hidden powerups, shortcuts and so forth. It all depends on how selective your memory is.
Wtf is this logic?
Since the cut-scenes are unkippable it means the developers considered them important.
People posted plenty of reasonable criticism towards the game and you're dismissing them like they don't have any value and you're the only one right.
Neff
Member
I'm saying that the story shouldn't be important to players, not the developers, at least not at the expense of gameplay.
And you're putting words in my mouth here. I'm not interested in who's 'right' or 'wrong'. All criticism and praise is equally valid. What I'm interested in is the phenomenon of Other M's harsher critics -still full of opportunistic bile 5 years on- to consistently fail to come up with concrete flaws at a gameplay level to justify words like 'abomination' or the besmirching of Sakamoto's name over a single title which was actually well received by the more rational and distanced of critics.
And I think that comes down to the story, and also perhaps rather zealous fandom surrounding an ideal of Samus that never officially existed in the first place.
D.Lo
Member
I recently played through the Japanese Other M, with Japanese voices and English subs. Easily the best way to play it. It keeps it feeling kind of like an anime, so the melodramatic nonsense seems more normal and palatable.
Basically it's a lot more like Fusion. It makes you see that Fusion has basically the exact same problems (and exact same setting and plot pretty much...), but was more accepted due to 'old school Japanese 2D game' format.
It's still not great mind you, it just makes it more palatable.
I don't want the amazing Zero Mission, 3, 4 and Prime 1-3 thrown away.
Basically it's a lot more like Fusion. It makes you see that Fusion has basically the exact same problems (and exact same setting and plot pretty much...), but was more accepted due to 'old school Japanese 2D game' format.
It's still not great mind you, it just makes it more palatable.
I was about to say the same thing.
I don't want the amazing Zero Mission, 3, 4 and Prime 1-3 thrown away.
That would be a fantastic way to handle it.
No he didn't, it is not called Metroid 5. Main line entries get numbers.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
George Lucas also kept making shit even after he was done with the prequels right up until he quit films altogether and sold out to Disney while also actively preventing people from viewing the original versions of his earlier work.If you're defending Sakamoto here, I have no clue why you're trying to draw parallels to the backlash towards Lucas of all people. Saying this as someone who agrees Other M making his earlier and later work void is dumb since it was a one-off turd in an otherwise very solid portfolio.
D.Lo
Member
Ha, yep.
If he'd re-released Super Metroid with constant voiceover and a bunch of CGI scenes added after bosses, and that was the version available on Virtual Console, and released two equally bad Other M sequels, there might be a case for the comparison.
Was she really deconstrcted? What exactly was there to begin with?
Admittedly I haven't played every game in the series through so if she was heavily built up as a character in the Prime sub series or such, please correct me. I don't recall her expressing or demonstrating any sort of personality whatsoever with the exception of her sparing the last Metroid at the end of the second game. Again if I missed something please let me know.
Neff
Member
I've always respected the fact that Star Wars belongs (or belonged) to Lucas, and it was his to do with as he pleased, even if I didn't always agree with his decisions (I actually really like the prequel trilogy, despite its shortcomings, although I do have problems with some of his changes to the original trilogy). I could say the same for Sakamoto, although he's never really set a foot wrong with Metroid as far as I'm concerned. I could enjoy Other M's story for what it is- glossy, campy, unwisely self-indulgent shit, but the good more than outweighs the bad imo, and I'd even consider it one of the better games in the franchise.
I think it's important to respect the creator and their sense of creativity, and for them to follow new directions which interest them, even if they aren't necessarily in our best interests. When we start beating our chests and demanding that escapism adhere to a set of rules we've invented and creators fearfully follow suit, that's when art loses its vigor and culture stalls.
SpacePirate Ridley
Member
And he "screws" once and some people want him fired. I really feel for the guy. Hope (im sure) he can continue doing more great games, including metroids. The man is a legend.
To be fair Sakamoto wasn't exactly the creator of Metroid. He's been with the series since the start and worked on all the titles with the exception of the ones they outsourced to a western development studio though so he's kind of taken the role as the head of the series.
Because of this I don't think he should get quite as much "ownership" for lack of a better word, but more than anyone else it's his series.
I still think people are going massively overboard over one game and I suspect it's the result primarily of his vision of Samus conflicting with what the fans made up in thier heads prior.
Unfortunately hell never come close to understanding other m's flaws with all the hyperbole, exaggeration, and halo effects surrounding the title.
And honestly, Im not sure he has ever, or needs to ever, understand exactly what made metroid metroid, because it was never all him, he was always just a part of it, never the whole thing like with other m.
Metroid always struck as a game that was at its best when it was blazing new territory, exploring and discovering what can be done, and at its worst when its... derivitive. SUper was the best 2d metroid, the more comfortable the team got, the worse the classic series got for core metroid gameplay (And the better it got in slick presentation) going down to fusion, where you dont really star playing a metroid game until everything goes to hell and you have to actually find things on your own, to zero mission, which never actually let you explore until after you kill MB and then decide to not go to the game ending(The designed sequences like shine spark runs were fun thing to do, but not a viable replacement for actual exploration gameplay) to the bottom of the barrel of other M, which doesnt come close to being a metroid game on the exploration design until after you beat the game and come back, and then its so short its a horrible tease.
Same with prime, the first one was fantastic and ground breaking. It had its flaws, samus was slow and clunky compared to her normal mobility, but as experience has shown, nailing the 2d games movement mechanics is nowhere near as important as nailing that metroid feeling of exploration and discovery. Echoes wasnt as good the first in this regaurd (Though it had some bomb bosses) And corruption couldnt even be considered a metroidvania game at all.
Im not so sure Sakamoto needs to change, as I dont think hes any different than he was before, but he needs those counter weights like he used to have.
I feel the series needs an equal mix of fresh blood, to offset the experienced team members, because it seems once people get too experienced with making metroid, they start to get too comfortable, and things begin to get streamlined.
D.Lo
Member
It was largely conveyed through body language and actions in previous games. As well as the fact that saying nothing is actually saying something.
Super Metroid had a non-nonsense narrated intro, and even Fusion shows a 'get the job done' attitude in most of the script. The Primes in particular however used actions and body language to convey confidence. Samus was NEVER openly afraid.
Other M had Samus paralysed with fear about fighting an enemy she'd defeated multiple times before without hesitation. It wasn't just an inner monologue as she went about her usual business of wiping the floor with every enemy in her path, she ceased to act, which is directly outside of all the previous games experience.
Neff
Member
Yeah, creator is a loose term on my part. He directed all of the Japanese Metroid titles with the exception of Metroid, which he co-directed with Satoru Okada, and Metroid II which was directed by Hiroji Kiyotake. It's probably fair to say that Sakamoto is Mr. Metroid as far as Nintendo is concerned.
Other M showed her ptsd from the space pirate attack on her colony being triggered....
As Sakamoto and deer force wrote for the Metroid Comic book/origin story that was released as a promo to fusion (Some of the unlockable art work from fusion is from this)
That all of like.... 12 people know about, because like you said, no game ever actually dived into it until other m.
Those 12 people (Sup) have been waiting for the inevitable catastrophic moment when it was finally put in a game, and the reactions it would cause ever since the early 00's.
To be fair, its a pretty accurate depiction of a ptsd attack, aside from Samus actually being able to stop it before the replaying events concluded, and are nowhere near as.... demeaning as the events of the comic book, which were (And when reading this, remember how over the top you felt this scene was in other m) super over dramatized.
You actually are paralyzed as the process triggers something similar to an REM state, where the memories of the incident replay, and as people may not actually know, you are paralyzed during rem sleep, as you are during a ptsd attack (After words is a different story, and the person can be incredibly dangerous if they dont realize its over upon gaining functions again).
To be reasonable, who the hell would have been able to get what was going on from what was provided in game? You would have either had to have been one of the 12 people who read the comic, or be like, a nuerologist or something.
Magnet_Man
Member
The hypocrisy is tangible.
Who are these fabled 71 critics whose opinions are more important than all others? Are they some sort of holy order?
The gameplay is uninspired tripe with no depth or compelling aspects to it whatsoever. A D-pad for use in a 3D environment was considered unfeasible in the 90s with the introduction to analog controls. Team Ninja told Sakamoto "Use the analog stick" to which Sakamoto said "Naw, d-pad FTW"
The combat is embarrassingly shallow with only dodge and shoot, both of which are almost completely automated by the game, requiring no skill from the player. Sense Move requires nothing more than mashing the D-Pad in one direction (it could even be in the direction of the attack or enemy for god's sake) and the absurd amount of invincibility will protect you from what has to be 98% of all attacks in the game. Not only that, dodging will immediately give you a full charge shot to attack with. Attacking is also uninteresting and bland because there is only shooting the one beam you get. It auto-aims, has excessive range, and the charge shot (made even easier to get via Sense Move) has an area of effect that envelope 1/4 of the zone around Samus to kill multiple enemies which eliminates the need to worry about managing multiple targets.
Wouldn't you know it? BOTH of these things were Sakamoto's ideas that he wouldn't budge on despite Team Ninja saying they were bad ideas. While I'm at it, here's a second link, this time Iwata Asks. Sakamoto acknowledges there's not enough buttons on the Wiimote to have more natural controls, so despite adding the nunchuk like the entirety of Team Ninja was telling him to, Sakamoto stuck to his guns and decided the solution was "automation", which gave us Other M's woefully boring, shallow, and unengaging combat.
Exploration, one of the biggest draws of Metroid was also scaled back. Why? Sakamoto of course!
"Metroid games have always been created so that players can sense where they should go next but thats a skill of the veteran players and must be hard for newcomers
...
Giving clear cut directions in terms of where they should go next, through dialogue and drama scenes, is something that we thought would help with that."
The combat was boring, exploration was completely taken away from the player, and cutscenes were crammed down our throat instead. All of which was Sakamoto's doing. Every single fault and complaint that people level at Other M, storywise or gameplay-wise, all are because of Sakamoto. Yes, I am going to "besmirch" the hell out of Sakamoto for his outrageous stupidity and stubbornness that ruined this game before it even began and left a taint on one of the most compelling and creative franchises in Nintendo's library.
It's easier to lose trust than to gain it, and Sakamoto OBLITERATED the trust people had in him through his constant ignorance about 3D game design, ignorance HE HIMSELF ADMITTED TO HAVING.
WHOOPS!! MY BAD!! YA CAUGHT ME! All those links, quotes and explanations were bullshit! Turns out I don't like Other M or Sakamoto because Sakamoto hurt my Ice Queen Samus Waifu! And she didn't have a personality at all before.
Nope.
No
personality
here.
We
clearly
made
it
up.
(And only two of those are from the Primes.)
These points against Other M and Sakamoto come up in every topic about it. If you were ever going to give them credence beyond "you're just butthurt", you would have by now.
My bad, she went from a mostly blank slate to terrible character.