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Patriot Act to be Expanded
- Thread starter goodcow
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ToyMachine228
Member
Phoenix said:
As it stands, if the government intercepts anything like this using their abilities through Patriot Act, they cannot act on it. The same goes for stuff like underaged drinking, drug abuse, and stuff like that. IF, this begins to happen, this is when the government would need to be stopped. But as it is now, it doesn't happen.
Phoenix
Member
ToyMachine228 said:
FALSE I can't make a FALSE big enough for that one. NO WHERE in the Patriot Act does it say that the jurisdiction is specifically to "protect us from attack" and that it it "limited to terrorist activities". I think perhaps you should actually read it for your self so you'll know exactly what you're giving up (and not by your own choice). A HUGE part of the new revision of the patriot act is so they don't have to have oversight or a judge's approval before wiretapping.
And since we're on the topic of things that are 'too small', you do realize that there are law enforcement officials whose job it is to enforce these 'too small' issues and they will have the authority to perform these taps under the law.... without seeking permission from a judge. Anyone who doesn't draw the line there is just screwed in the head and really needs to be sent through a remedial civics, social studies, and history class.
ToyMachine228
Member
I have read the Patriot Act. I did a research paper on it for english class, and my economics class had a two day long debate as a big project. I know more than MOST people on this board know about it. Not everyone I'm sure.
And just for the record, I'm not arguing to be a dick or anything. It's just my opinion.
And just for the record, I'm not arguing to be a dick or anything. It's just my opinion.
ToyMachine228
Member
It's not in the Patriot Act in print. It's inferred. And when the government starts doing small stuff like this, as you speak of, through the Patriot Act, then I agree, it would have to be removed.
Phoenix
Member
ToyMachine228 said:
As a law student let me tell you this, the law is what it is in print. Language is EVERYTHING. You cannot infer anything from a law that it doesn't already state. The only person who can do that is a judge who is hearing your case. In order for a judge to be hearing your case, you have to be arrested, and probably jailed while you sit around waiting for your court date. Hell even for traffic tickets you're going to wait a few weeks, and for cases like this actually innocent people... Americans will have to sit in jail (or at best under house arrest or similar restriction) so that they can defend themselves. That's wrong - totally wrong.
Section 215 of the Patriot Act is probably the largest and most obvious offender. With this the FBI (or now any homeland security branch) can request records about your health, finances, travel, email, web browsing, phone, church, video rental, library book checkouts - hell even your XBox Live account without warrant. This is STRICTLY forbidden by the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. Fourth Amendment Title III says that if 'the state' wants to search you, it needs probable cause to do this. Section 215 violates this and removes the need for probable cause. In fact it even states that they don't even need to tell you you're being investigated! So wrong is this provision that is states that a judge MUST give any law office seeking permission to search you - permission to search you. It is a rubber stamp allowing for the monitoring, search, and possibly even arrest/detaining of Americans without even showing any evidence that you've committed a crime!
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
ToyMachine228 said:
:lol Man, I'd like to sell you some stuff on Ebay. That way, when you order an item that states "In Perfect Working Order" and receive a trashed piece of shit, that lo and behold, does technically "work", we can both share a laugh if you tried to take me to court. Besides, why the fuck would they need to infer anything? To save space?
ToyMachine228 said:
Your point is bullshit, because 'suspected' people are held, detained, and thrown in prison for no valid reasons other than theyre suspected. This is a fact. The checks and balances that are supposed to prevent this from happening, and that urge you to provide 'evidence' are systematically being destroyed. Not everyone is as naive as you about the infallibility of these people who determine who is dangerous, and based on what grounds.
Why do all of you hate freedom so much?
It's through the greatness of the PATRIOT ACT that we get to help bering freedom to the world, by equipping us to fight the war on terror.
All people want freedom, deep down in their hearts. I know it. Except for terrorists who oppose the PATRIOT ACT, of course.
It's through the greatness of the PATRIOT ACT that we get to help bering freedom to the world, by equipping us to fight the war on terror.
All people want freedom, deep down in their hearts. I know it. Except for terrorists who oppose the PATRIOT ACT, of course.
La Li Lu Le Lo
La Li Lu Le Lo
La Li Lu Le Lo
I'm happy that I live in Canada at times like this. I'm glad there's so many people opposed to the government's selfish desires and blatant disregard for human freedoms, but at the same time, I think some of you need to do more than just talk. Even if it's something as small as a written letter, do something! I know it sounds corny, but your future, the future of North America, the future of the world has always been and always will be in your hands. People need to rise to the occassion....
La Li Lu Le Lo
La Li Lu Le Lo
I'm happy that I live in Canada at times like this. I'm glad there's so many people opposed to the government's selfish desires and blatant disregard for human freedoms, but at the same time, I think some of you need to do more than just talk. Even if it's something as small as a written letter, do something! I know it sounds corny, but your future, the future of North America, the future of the world has always been and always will be in your hands. People need to rise to the occassion....
Fresh Prince
Banned
China for #1 Superpower 2020!
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Keep in mind the problem with counterintelligence back around 9/11 wasn't a lack of information, but letting it languish unexamined once they had it. Remember the whistleblower up in Minnesota? Yup. It does no good to yank info from Comcast on Billy Watson's fetish for catgirl hentai and pot site surfing if reports like that smothers information exchange about potential sleeper cells under survelliance by one agent it's assigned to when he goes to submit it.
With this, they can keep the incompetent brass that blew it then yet still "look" tough on terrorism.
With this, they can keep the incompetent brass that blew it then yet still "look" tough on terrorism.
ToyMachine228
Member
Before the Patriot Act, do you think that the government never listened in on a conversation? Never monitored anything? If the government sees the need to do it, they are going to do it, regardless if it's constitutional or not. Whether anyone likes it or not.
And think of it this way...Don't take this too seriously. Say your family has a family reunion. And you can't make it. In the city the reunion is held, a bomb goes off. Then later, the government sees all sorts of evidence of it coming, but they couldn't pursue it before hand, because it violated the constitution. Would you not be pissed? I know I would. And if the government could have listened in on a few phone calls, and changed the outcome of this, saving my family, I'd give that right up any day.
Now that's just a terrible scenario, and wouldn't likely happen, but I'm just using it to try to make a point. I'm way out numbered here, so take it as you will.
And think of it this way...Don't take this too seriously. Say your family has a family reunion. And you can't make it. In the city the reunion is held, a bomb goes off. Then later, the government sees all sorts of evidence of it coming, but they couldn't pursue it before hand, because it violated the constitution. Would you not be pissed? I know I would. And if the government could have listened in on a few phone calls, and changed the outcome of this, saving my family, I'd give that right up any day.
Now that's just a terrible scenario, and wouldn't likely happen, but I'm just using it to try to make a point. I'm way out numbered here, so take it as you will.
ToyMachine228 said:
Listening in on Joe Blo talking to his cute girlfriend about Hello Kitty and fine cuisine won't help the government one bit. If there's intelligence to be had on a terrorist attack, they'll already be on top of it, monitoring the suspects regardless of whether it's legal or not as you said.
Like someone said above, being allowed to keep tabs on everyone would just lead to a flood of useless information. It wasn't lack of information that resulted in 9/11, it was too much.
typhonsentra
Banned
I say this is good.
Phoenix
Member
ToyMachine228 said:
Of course they did. Governments do illegal things all the time. That doesn't mean that you make it legal because people have been doing it illegally for a long time.
Evidence doesn't violate the constitution. If you have probable cause to investigate someone you could ALREADY wiretap them. 9/11 which was the largest terror attack on American soil had a flood of intelligence. In actuallity NONE of the new laws would have prevented it in any way. They had plenty information but didn't act on it properly.
Its unfortunate that you believe that releasing freedom will give you some form of security. Security is at best an illusion. Do you think that sitting in an airport checkin for 2 hours makes the airports any more secure? Nope, people are STILL getting on planes realizing that they have knives and in one case a firearm. What we have today is a situation where our intelligence gathering aparatus fucked up, but instead of just admitting they fucked up - they've put up this smoke screen of excuses. Our intelligence aparatus fucked up AGAIN on Iraq and did they didn't admit to that one either. Instead we get more excuses and a list of proposals and funding requests.
BobbyRobby
Member
mattx5 said:
Well Canada isn't exactly a bastion for free speech.
Fresh Prince
Banned
Whoever wins you lose.Xenon said:
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