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Paul Thurott thouroughly trashes Windows Vista

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Slurpy

*drowns in jizz*
:lol :lol :lol

Isn't this guy supposed to be the biggest microsoft/windows championer?

Windows Vista February 2006 CTP (Build 5308/5342) Review, Part 5: Where Vista Fails



I still remember the day very clearly. It was Monday, October 27, 2003. Several thousand developers--and, let's face it, quite a few garden variety Windows enthusiasts--charged into Hall A at the Los Angeles Convention Center (LACC) like teenage girls at a Justin Timberlake concert, volleying for the best seats. I've been to more Bill Gates keynotes than I can count, and this was the first time I ever saw anyone climb over other people in order to secure a better view. (No offense to Mr. Gates, but he's not exactly a dynamic speaker.) It was PDC 2003 (see my review) and everything was right with my world.

The purpose of this melee? Gates and Microsoft were about to unveil Windows Vista--then still known by its codename Longhorn--to the world. And sure enough, almost an hour into a typical Gates snoozeathon, the lights finally dimmed, the rock music kicked in, and we were treated to a musical and video feast of the senses (see my showcase). As I excitedly wrote at the time, "my goodness. [Windows Vista] is going to rock ... The transparent window effects--called glass windows, appropriately enough--are beautiful. The ability to embed video and any other kind of media into documents, apps, and anything else you can think off--even small previews you see when you mouse-over a scrollbar--are just incredible, surpassing anything on any system available today (yes, including Mac OS X Panther). The visuals in [Windows Vista] are just going to blow you away."

Let those words hang in your mind for a bit. Two and a half years later, Microsoft has yet to ship Windows Vista, and it won't actually ship this system in volume until 2007. Since the euphoria of PDC 2003, Microsoft's handling of Windows Vista has been abysmal. Promises have been made and dismissed, again and again. Features have come and gone. Heck, the entire project was literally restarted from scratch after it became obvious that the initial code base was a teetering, technological house of cards. Windows Vista, in other words, has been an utter disaster. And it's not even out yet. What the heck went wrong?
Even the mightiest tree...

Having dealt with Microsoft for many years, I can say this much with certainty: The company is literally filled to the brim with some of the brightest, smartest, most insightful, and friendliest` people I've ever met. Some of my best friends work at the company either directly or indirectly (in some cases doing PR work), and I've established long term friendly relationships with numerous people I've come into contact with specifically because of my job writing about technology. And yet, Microsoft has made some mind-numbing mistakes. It (illegally, as it turns out) artificially bundled its immature Internet Explorer (IE) Web browser so deeply into Windows in order to harm Netscape that it's still paying the price for the decision--a full decade later--in the form of regular critical security flaws that have taken away time from developers that might have otherwise been spent innovating new features. The company itself has turned into that thing it most hated (read: IBM), an endlessly complex hierarchy of semi-autonomous middle managers and vice presidents of various levels and titles, many of whom can't seem to make even the smallest of decisions. The company is too big and too slow to ship updates to its biggest products. It's collapsing under its own weight.

For Windows, specifically, the situation is dire. As I've noted in the past, the Windows Division retains, as employees of the software giant have told me, the last vestiges of the bad, old Microsoft. This is the Microsoft that ran roughshod over competitors in order to gain market share at any cost. The Microsoft that forgot about customers in its blind zeal to harm competitors. The Microsoft, that frankly, all the Linux and Apple fanatics always imagined was out there, plotting and planning their termination. The Microsoft that threatens Windows fans with needless legal threats rather than reaching out and creating constructive relationships with the very people who prop up the company the most.

This Bad Microsoft is not all of Microsoft, and it's not even all of the Windows Division. But it's there. And while it was allowed to continue during the software Glasnost of the past few years because of the immeasurable benefits of Windows to Microsoft's bottom line, it seems that the company is finally, if belatedly, fixing things. Stephen Sinofsky, a Gates confidant who oversaw a steady and regular set of Microsoft Office releases over the past decade, is now running the development of future Windows versions. Sadly, Sinofsky came on board too late to help Windows Vista. But it will be interesting to see if he can remove the cancer that has almost destroyed the Windows Division from within.

So what went wrong? What didn't go wrong? When Bill Gates revealed in mid-2003 that he was returning to his roots, so to speak, and spending half of his time on what was then still called Longhorn, we should have seen the warning signs. Sadly, Gates, too, is part of the Bad Microsoft, a vestige of the past who should have had the class to either formally step down from the company or at least play just an honorary role, not step up his involvement and get his hands dirty with the next Windows version. If blame is to be assessed, we must start with Gates. He has guided--or, through lack of leadership--failed to guide the development of Microsoft's most prized asset. He has driven it into the ground.

Promises were made. Excitement was generated. None of it, as it turns out, was worth a damn. From a technical standpoint, the version of Windows Vista we will receive is a sad shell of its former self, a shadow. One might still call it a major Windows release. I will, for various reasons. The kernel was rewritten. The graphics subsystem is substantially improved, if a little obviously modeled after that in Mac OS X. Heck, half of the features of Windows Vista seem to have been lifted from Apple's marketing materials.

Shame on you, Microsoft. Shame on you, but not just for not doing better. We expect you to copy Apple, just as Apple (and Linux) in its turn copies you. But we do not and should not expect to be promised the world, only to be given a warmed over copy of Mac OS X Tiger in return. Windows Vista is a disappointment. There is no way to sugarcoat that very real truth.
Broken promises

Windows Vista was going to include a completely rewritten file system, based on SQL Server and once called Storage+. Later renamed to WinFS, this file system was downgraded to a "storage engine," meaning that it would, in fact, run on top of the decades-old NTFS file system. Then WinFS was stripped out of Windows Vista because the performance was so horrible. WinFS will supposedly ship around the same time as Windows Vista now, as an add-on. Or maybe it will be later than that. Maybe it will never ship. Who the heck knows? Who cares anymore?

Losing WinFS wasn't a big deal, I was told, because Windows Vista will still include pervasive index-based searching features modeled, apparently, after the Spotlight feature in Mac OS X. OK, that's fine. Besides, the new virtual folder system in Windows Vista was to have begun a long-necessary move away from the drive letter-based file systems we use today. With virtual folders, it wouldn't matter where files were stored because these special folders--which are really just stored search results--would simply aggregate files from all over your PC, and even the network, we were breathlessly told, and display them in a simple, single view. Right on your desktop.

Virtual folders seemed great, but as it turned out, they confused a lot of people. So now I can (and eventually will) document several major changes to the virtual folder technologies found in Windows Vista, and these all occurred between the September 2005 CTP (see my review) and the May 2006 CTP, which we'll supposedly get late next month. (Anyone care to bet whether that will happen?) At first, virtual folders replaced the special shell folders like My Documents and My Pictures. Then, they simply augmented special shell folders but were still prominently available in the shell. Then, virtual folders were renamed to Stored Searches, the built-in virtual folders were completely scrapped, and a new set appeared. Then, Stored Searches were completely downplayed in the shell. And then, finally, Stored Searches were renamed, simply, to Searches. Good luck finding them in the current builds. They're in there, but like the Task Panes in XP, no normal user will ever discover them, let alone use them. If a feature is in Windows and no one uses it, is it still a feature? I'll leave that one to the philosophers out there.

There are so many more examples. But these two, WinFS and virtual folders, are the most dramatic and obvious. Someday, it might be interesting--or depressing, at least--to create a list of features Microsoft promised for Windows Vista, but reneged on. Here are a few tantalizing examples: A real Sidebar that would house system-wide notifications, negating the need for the horribly-abused tray notification area. 10-foot UIs for Sidebar, Windows Calendar, Windows Mail, and other components, that would let users access these features with a remote control like Media Center. True support for RAW image files include image editing. The list just goes on and on.
Where Vista Fails

I'll leave a fuller examination of Vista's broken promises for a later date. For now, let's look at the most current builds we do have--build 5308 and 5342--and see where Vista just completely blows it. As with the broken promises, Vista's failures are legion, but I'll just focus on a few examples here and leave the full list for a later time.
User Account Protection

Modern operating systems like Linux and Mac OS X operate under a security model where even administrative users don't get full access to certain features unless they provide an in-place logon before performing any task that might harm the system. This type of security model protects users from themselves, and it is something that Microsoft should have added to Windows years and years ago.

Here's the good news. In Windows Vista, Microsoft is indeed moving to this kind of security model. The feature is called User Account Protection (UAP) and, as you might expect, it prevents even administrative users from performing potentially dangerous tasks without first providing security credentials, thus ensuring that the user understands what they're doing before making a critical mistake. It sounds like a good system. But this is Microsoft, we're talking about here. They completely botched UAP.

The bad news, then, is that UAP is a sad, sad joke. It's the most annoying feature that Microsoft has ever added to any software product, and yes, that includes that ridiculous Clippy character from older Office versions. The problem with UAP is that it throws up an unbelievable number of warning dialogs for even the simplest of tasks. That these dialogs pop up repeatedly for the same action would be comical if it weren't so amazingly frustrating. It would be hilarious if it weren't going to affect hundreds of millions of people in a few short months. It is, in fact, almost criminal in its insidiousness.

Let's look a typical example. One of the first things I do whenever I install a new Windows version is download and install Mozilla Firefox. If we forget, for a moment, the number of warning dialogs we get during the download and install process (including a brazen security warning from Windows Firewall for which Microsoft should be chastised), let's just examine one crucial, often overlooked issue. Once Firefox is installed, there are two icons on my Desktop I'd like to remove: The Setup application itself and a shortcut to Firefox. So I select both icons and drag them to the Recycle Bin. Simple, right?

Wrong. Here's what you have to go through to actually delete those files in Windows Vista. First, you get a File Access Denied dialog (Figure) explaining that you don't, in fact, have permission to delete a ... shortcut?? To an application you just installed??? Seriously?

OK, fine. You can click a Continue button to "complete this operation." But that doesn't complete anything. It just clears the desktop for the next dialog, which is a Windows Security window (Figure). Here, you need to give your permission to continue something opaquely called a "File Operation." Click Allow, and you're done. Hey, that's not too bad, right? Just two dialogs to read, understand, and then respond correctly to. What's the big deal?

What if you're doing something a bit more complicated? Well, lucky you, the dialogs stack right up, one after the other, in a seemingly never-ending display of stupidity. Indeed, sometimes you'll find yourself unable to do certain things for no good reason, and you click Allow buttons until you're blue in the face. It will never stop bothering you, unless you agree to stop your silliness and leave that file on the desktop where it belongs. Mark my words, this will happen to you. And you will hate it.
Glass Windows

One of the most highly-touted features of Windows Vista is glass windows, a part of the Windows Aero user interface. It sounds like a great idea, and heck, let's give Microsoft a bit of credit for the ingenuity of taking the windows metaphor to its logical conclusion. Maybe Apple can add stained glass windows to the next version of Mac OS X in response.

Anyway, the reality of glass windows is that they stink. The windows themselves are translucent, meaning you can see through them partially. But the visual difference between the topmost window (that is, the window with which you are currently interacting, or what we might describe as the window with focus) and any other windows (i.e. those windows that are visually located "under" the topmost window) is subtle at best. More to the point, you can't tell topmost windows from other windows at all. And don't pretend you can.

Let's look at an example. Here are two windows in Windows Vista, viewed side-by-side. Quick: Which one is the top-most window? You have a 50 percent chance of getting it right, so don't pat yourself on the back if you chose the right one quite yet. The truth is, neither one is particularly differentiated from the other.


(Click image for a larger version)

How about a screen with more windows? Go ahead, I dare you: Press DELETE. I'm sure you'll get the right window. (It's the one in the lower left, by the way.)


(Click image for a larger version)

Now, compare how similar windows appear in Windows XP. Even though XP arguably isn't as pretty as Vista (though one might make a case for the reverse), it's always very clear which window is on top.


(Click image for a larger version)

Glass windows sound like a great idea, until you actually use them. Surely Microsoft can do better than this.
Media Center

When I first saw Media Center at the Consumer Electronics Show (CES) 2002, I complained to Microsoft that they had ruined the rest of my year: The problem was, I wanted Media Center immediately, and was told it wouldn't be shipping until late that year. Fortunately, I got on the beta early and have been using a Media Center PC as my main TV interface ever since. And though I always disagreed with making Media Center available to consumers only via a special XP Media Center Edition, I championed this software over the intervening three years as it matured into XP Media Center 2005 with Update Rollup 2 (UR2, see my review). It was never perfect, but Microsoft hit a home run with Media Center.

And then the steroid abuse began (forgive me for continuing the baseball comparison). In Windows Vista, Microsoft has irrevocably broken Media Center. It's a horrid update to a wonderful bit of software, an ugly stepchild of beautiful parents. It's so bad, I don't even know where to start. But I'll try.

First, the color scheme. Rather than going the obvious route and offering a way for consumers to adjust the color scheme of the Media Center interface, Microsoft has taken the clean medium blue interface from previous versions and dyed it an ugly darker blue color. For good measure, they've also messied up the interface by overlaying a weird and unnecessary graphic behind the text bits. You know, just in case they were too easy to read.

One of the problems with Media Center over the years--a problem that Apple has faced with its iPod as well, incidentally--is that it was hard to keep the simplicity of the base user interface while piling on features. The first Media Center version was short on features and thus necessarily sported a very clean and simple UI. But in subsequent versions, Microsoft had to change to a revolving main menu and other tricks to keep the interface clean and intuitive. And sure enough, through the previous release, it worked.

In Vista Media Center, they've run out of ideas. Rather than big, clear text labels, each menu item in the main menu is encased in a box. The boxes have small, stacked boxes of stuff in them, for some reason, though you can rarely tell what those items are (the Music Library choice, for example, includes small album art images, though they aren't from your music library).

But what's really wrong is that Microsoft is overplaying a feature I call horizontal navigation. If you think about the way that most computer and consumer electronics interfaces work, you'll see that they usually feature a vertical interface, where you must scroll up or down to get to other locations. Word documents and most Web pages work this way, and TV and Media Center remotes include various Up/Down buttons (like Volume and Channel) but no Left/Right buttons. There are exceptions, of course. Excel spreadsheets often extend horizontally, and of course a TV guide can go left and right as well as up and down.

In previous Media Center versions, there were limited opportunities for navigating horizontally. In Vista, the horizontal navigational style--which debuted in the horrid Portable Media Centers (see my review)--has taken over. I think it's a mistake. You navigate into, say, Music Library, and instead of getting nicer vertical lists of music, easily navigated with all existing Media Center remotes, you get a bizarre horizontal structure composed of album art renderings through which you mostly navigate from left to right (Figure). It's not logical or intuitive, and it gets more bizarre if you have a lot of content. Worse, the submenus in each section require horizontal navigation as well. Have fun with that.

My guess is that Microsoft will deflect this criticism with two points. First, most Media Center users don't use a TV and remote control anyway, so the new system works fine for people with keyboards and mice. Besides, I bet they're working on new Media Center remotes anyway, and those will likely include better controls for the new interface. That's nice. But what Media Center, like much of Windows Vista, does is punish people for being familiar with the previous interface. My family has been using Media Center for four years now. It's their TV interface, the only one they now. Now it's very different, confusing, and ugly to boot. Congratulations.

By not rewarding people with retaining key interfaces, Microsoft is making Media Center as confusing to use as a completely new software application. In other words, there's precious little reason to keep using it when superior alternatives--like a TiVo or SnapStream Beyond TV--are out there.

Previously, Media Center was something I could recommend to normal people with only a few caveats. (It was, after all, always a PC-based solution, so it suffers from the same problems as any PC.) Now, I'm not so sure. I don't think regular people will grok Media Center at all. In fact, I think they'll find it horribly confusing.

What's hilarious, of course, is that Windows Media Player 11 completely nails the graphical, vertical media-centric user interface that Media Center abandoned. Like Media Center, WMP 11 presents media with album art. Unlike Media Center, WMP 11 is attractive, easy to navigate, and intuitive to use, even the first time (Figure). My guess is that most Vista users will be quite content to enjoy digital media content in WMP 11 and just skip the ugly mistake that is Vista Media Center. Media Center should simply be a remote control-capable version of WMP 11. Maybe next time.
Feature complete, my butt

Back in early December 2005, Microsoft promised that it would ship a feature-complete version of Windows Vista internally by the end of 2005 and then deliver an updated version to testers in early 2006. That milestone slipped from December 2005 to January 2006, and testers didn't get a so-called feature-complete Vista version until February 2006. However, that build, and a subsequent interim build 5342, are not feature complete. In fact, there are many, many features missing from these builds that will apparently show up in future builds.

Among these missing features are the various Vista Ultimate Extras (features and services), including a Texas Hold-em game that was developed by the people behind Windows Calendar and Sidebar, Virtual PC Express, Media Center support for the Xbox 360 Media Center Extender, automatic hard disk defragmentation, themed slideshows, Windows Movie Maker HD, and so on.

Why is this a big deal? It's not really, but when taken in context, this is simply another example of Microsoft promising one thing with Windows Vista and then delivering something entirely else, and late no less.
Conclusions

OK, let's not get silly here. I don't hate Windows Vista, and I certainly don't hate Microsoft for disappointing me and countless other customers with a product that doesn't even come close to meeting its original promises. I'm sure the company learned something from this debacle, and hopefully it will be more open and honest about what it can and cannot do in the future. But you'd have to be special kind of stupid to look at Windows Vista and see it as the be-all, end-all of operating systems. It some ways, Windows Vista actually will exceed Mac OS X and Linux, but not to the depth we were promised. Instead, Windows Vista will do what so many other Windows releases have done, and simply offer consumers and business users a few major changes and many subtle or minor updates. That's not horrible. It's just not what was promised. Because it failed so obviously with Vista, my guess is that Microsoft is a bit gun shy about major OS releases and will be for some time. And that's too bad. Windows Vista was Microsoft's first chance since Windows 95 to reach for the golden ring. It may be another decade before they try again.

--Paul Thurrott
April 19, 2006

http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/winvista_5308_05.asp
 

tedtropy

$50/hour, but no kissing on the lips and colors must be pre-separated
The words 'review' and 'beta preview' don't exactly meld...
 

goodcow

Member
Icanplaythat said:
Synopsis please.

Vista is a steaming pile of shit, with most of its promised features gutted, new features that remain being broken, and half of its new things being stolen directly from Apple.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Ouch on Vista Media Center being botched..... I have Media Center 2005 and it rocks.... it's the center of my digital lifestyle (don't I sound like an ad?) If they botched it, I just won't upgrade.
 

mrmyth

Member
BocoDragon said:
Ouch on Vista Media Center being botched..... I have Media Center 2005 and it rocks.... it's the center of my digital lifestyle (don't I sound like an ad?) If they botched it, I just won't upgrade.


Problem, is there was hinted shit about new magic functionality with the 360. But I'll just stick with what I have now and wait for Vista Service Pack 2.
 

White Man

Member
Ouch on Vista Media Center being botched..... I have Media Center 2005 and it rocks.... it's the center of my digital lifestyle (don't I sound like an ad?) If they botched it, I just won't upgrade.

mrmyth said:
Problem, is there was hinted shit about new magic functionality with the 360. But I'll just stick with what I have now and wait for Vista Service Pack 2.

This isn't even Beta 2. Why not wait until it actually releases, or until there's something reviewable, until you start saying you're waiting for SP2?
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
mrmyth said:
Problem, is there was hinted shit about new magic functionality with the 360. But I'll just stick with what I have now and wait for Vista Service Pack 2.

I have my Media Center PC hooked directly into my home theater.... I'm sure the only upgrade to 360 functionality is getting it to do something that my Media Center PC can already do (like play all video codecs, etc).

The only real advantage to "Media Center + 360" vs. "Media Center directly connected to a home theater" is streaming HD content.
 

Darko

Member
BocoDragon said:
Ouch on Vista Media Center being botched..... I have Media Center 2005 and it rocks.... it's the center of my digital lifestyle (don't I sound like an ad?) If they botched it, I just won't upgrade.

Media Center 2005 + MyMovies = Sex
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Darko said:
Media Center 2005 + MyMovies = Sex

Good call, though it's murder on hard drive space (if you use it to rip DVDs to the hard drive). My PC is already choked with torrented TV and movies as it is.... I kinda have to keep my DVDs offline to save space.
 

Darko

Member
BocoDragon said:
Good call, though it's murder on hard drive space (if you use it to rip DVDs to the hard drive). My PC is already choked with torrented TV and movies as it is.... I kinda have to keep my DVDs offline to save space.

i just download the xvid versions of my dvds instead (around 1.4gb each movie, usenet ftw), right now i have about 400gb in Tv shows/movies in my media center
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Darko said:
i just download the xvid versions of my dvds instead (around 1.4gb each movie, usenet ftw), right now i have about 400gb in Tv shows/movies in my media center

Oh... you can just set My Movies to avi rips? Well that's good then I guess. Personally I just made a folder in My Videos for Movies, but it would be nice to have them with real cover art.......

But the way you have to launch My Movies is kinda lame.... doesn't it have to go in "other programs"? Too much waiting.
 

Darko

Member
BocoDragon said:
Oh... you can just set My Movies to avi rips? Well that's good then I guess. Personally I just made a folder in My Videos for Movies, but it would be nice to have them with real cover art.......

But the way you have to launch My Movies is kinda lame.... doesn't it have to go in "other programs"? Too much waiting.

no its in the main menu along with "my videos" "my music" ect. :D
 

mrmyth

Member
White Man said:
This isn't even Beta 2. Why not wait until it actually releases, or until there's something reviewable, until you start saying you're waiting for SP2?


Eh, mostly basing it off of previous Windows versions. When have they gotten it right the first and second times? (that being said, Media Center 2005 Rollup 2 is sex) And like previously said, if Paul Thurrott hates it, it probably rapes babies.
 

goodcow

Member
hahaha, I'm looking at the other parts of his review of this rev. and man, Vista really is pathetic.

5308_review_wdm_04.jpg

I seriously can't help but burst out laughing comparing that to iDVD.

They're also including a complete iPhoto clone as well,
vista_5342_rev_14.jpg
 

Diablos

Member
I feel so guilty for using Windows.

But I couldn't use Linux to save my life, and Mac is way too expensive hardware and software-wise; not to mention, there's not much third party/freeware/etc. software available for Mac. That said, I probably wouldn't mind owning one.

It's ironic how the OS which has probably ripped more things off of other OS's than being more original in itself is superior to all.

If only some really gifted people would get together and make an extremely powerful, customizable yet user-friendly Linux... that would be great (and no, I'm not talking about Lindows, kthx).
 
Has MS talked about making it possible to have the x360 hooked up to a Media Center in a way that would allow you to pick "My xBox" or whatever from the main menu and play your 360 through the media Center? Because the way they have the x360 set up now its completely useless for people like me who have a Media Center PC in my main home theatre and don't need to stream anything to anywhere. At the same time having my video games integrated with the system would be great.

It seems like something they could do, but so far have just ignored this type of set up altogether.
 

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
This may sound incredibly nitpicky bit those three icons in the top right of the Vista windows (minimize, restore, close) tick me off to no end. They look like something that someone designed during early-90s, and just slapped over some more modern design.

Ah, who am I kidding, that whole design is gaudy as hell. I just hope Flyakite releases a quick update once Vista comes out.
 

Diablos

Member
-jinx- said:
That is simply not true.
Well, I should've went further with that point. Macs aren't as customizable, either, amirite? Can you build your own Mac like you can a PC, with tons of mobos, cpu's, memory types, video cards, fans, and misc. hardware to choose from?

As far as software goes, I'm talking about more open-source stuff I guess. Surely the PC has more of that? Can I get CDex, EAC, DVD Decrypter/ImgBurn, Nero, Winamp or Foobar, Speedfan, DVD Shrink, etc. for the Mac?
 

White Man

Member
Diablos said:
Mac is way too expensive hardware and software-wise;

I just built a new PC (4400+ athlon box) part by part, and it cost me just over 1300 after shipping. You can get an iMac or an iBook for that price.

not to mention, there's not much third party/freeware/etc. software available for Mac.

Patently not true. Everything I can do on my PC, I can do on my Macs. To your credit, I thought the same thing before taking the plunge. I still do use Windows to monitor my network, but that's just because I know that better.
 

MrNibbles

Banned
I hate that Vista is trying to be more like OSX.
Fucking Microsoft.

I hate OSX.

I like my shit boxy and functional.
FUCK form.

I'd move to Linux if support was better and I didn't hate the community.
Fucking open source whores.

No, I'm not being sarcastic - I hate visual effects that don't help me use the computer more efficiently. I hate "user-friendly" shit because it usually means strupped down, dumbed down, or crippled. I hate open source shit because it's usually not as good, AND because the community would swear by "Turdettes Chocolate Covered Raisins" if they were open source.

Who the fuck is Paul Thurott?

Fuck VISTA. It needs a LOT of work. And guess what. It's going to get it. It' snot due for release for a long time. Fuck the betas. Fuck the reviews of the betas. Just wait for a finished product.

I will likely NOT be moving to Vista for a long time. If it turns out it's a solid srable release, and I can easily turn off the candy-land features and remove the bloat, then I may dual-boot it. If it's unstable, and the bloat is deeply ingrained into the OS, then I won't touch it. Sadly, it looks like it'll be unstables with tons of bloat.

XP Pro will lasy me for a long time (until apps are Vista only, and you just KNOW that shit is gonna start with the games).
 

Hooker

Member
Diablos said:
...there's not _as_ much third party/freeware/etc. software available for Mac...
Helping Diablos a bit here, Apple still have long ways to go to match the software library that exists at Windows machines




Oh wait, I meant "fixed" :)
 

White Man

Member
Hooker said:
Helping Diablos a bit here, Apple still have long ways to go to match the software library that exists at Windows machines




Oh wait, I meant "fixed" :)

That's more like it. I've just come to dislike the implication that it's a software wasteland for macs.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
PlayStation Tree said:
Has MS talked about making it possible to have the x360 hooked up to a Media Center in a way that would allow you to pick "My xBox" or whatever from the main menu and play your 360 through the media Center? Because the way they have the x360 set up now its completely useless for people like me who have a Media Center PC in my main home theatre and don't need to stream anything to anywhere. At the same time having my video games integrated with the system would be great.

It seems like something they could do, but so far have just ignored this type of set up altogether.

So.... your Media Center PC is hooked up to your home theater... your 360 is hooked up to your home theater... and you wish you could play your 360 through your media center PC.... on your home theater? I don't get it.

And no, it really wouldn't be possible to stream 360 content over the network and onto your computer..... thats a whole lot different than sending a simple music or movie file over a network to be played on a 360 or whatever.
 

Diablos

Member
White Man said:
I just built a new PC (4400+ athlon box) part by part, and it cost me just over 1300 after shipping. You can get an iMac or an iBook for that price.
4400+ is pretty high end though, and for the price, that rocks. An iMac or iBook at that price surely doesn't give you much power, correct me if I am wrong.
 

Macam

Banned
Thurott's article is a bit surprising to me, not because of his reaction to Vista, but because of his reaction to Microsoft. It should be readily apparent that Gates is more of a liabilty to a more nimble Microsoft, and that Microsoft has almost never been one to keep to their promises. They've long since promised the moon and delivered well under that, for various reasons, whether that be internal troubles, keeping competition at bay, etc. It should've been apparent that Vista was heading down the same slippery slope and that once they started gutting key features and doing a series of internal reorganizations that we could only expect more of the same following it. The pressure's mounting however, so I think Vista's development will largely stabilize at this point.

A few other interesting things: The way Vista handles the key window is similar to OS X; utilizing a more prominent drop shadow and highlighting, in color, the window controls. The implementation doesn't seem to be as strong, and the transparent windows seem to have a hand in that. That said, for all the fuss of transparent windows, it was never a good idea. It makes controls and text harder to read, much like reading a webpage that uses a tiled background graphic under text. It's eye candy for the sole purpose of eye candy.

Vista has a far better system font that finally seems to be anti-aliased. It's still a bit 'weak' to me, but I'm accustomed to OS X's bolder fonts. Still, I always hated XP's illegible system font, so I'm glad it's beefed up by default.

That system warning system Thurott describes sounds horrible. Beyond horrible. I imagine that'll be somewhat simplified as Vista moves along.

Diablos: You should be careful when you try pawning off popular memes as fact, though you remedied that somewhat. Can you build your own Mac? No. You can, however, extend any of the models in most of the critical areas to most users; that is, RAM and HDDs, and, if you own a PowerMac, the graphics cards and other PCI-E slots. If you're absolutely set on incessantly upgrading your PC's motherboard and other components with arbitrary components, then no, Macs aren't for you. But for probably 80% of the computer literate populace, they'll never feel the need to go that far and, by that point, most will probably be eyeing replacing their older computer with a newer one, regardless of platform. I've built my own PC, and frankly, I don't care to ever do it again save for adding in a HDD or RAM. It's just not worth the time, effort, or money to me. And there's ton of software for Macs, open source included, since OS X is built on top of a Unix variation....Unix being around for three decades or so. A lot of these are included for anyone that cares to dig around with Terminal.

Mr Nibbles: You sound like you should be using a non-GUI oriented OS, like the various flavors of Unix or Linux if you really feel that way, since it seems to outweigh, at least to me, your criticisms of the Linux community. That said, Vista will reduce the eye candy by default if you don't have a high end PC capable of supporting it, which at this point in time, seems to account for most PCs. The bloatware, well, I don't think Windows will ever get rid of that. It's inherent in the nature of the OS, since it's all about compatibility, and Microsoft's nature, since they're all about throwing in as many features as possible.
 

shantyman

WHO DEY!?
The warning thing he is talking about is not that bad, seriously. I installed firefox after his example and I got a warning or 2 after deleting the installer. It was not that bad.

Vista does not suck shit. Is it a great leap? No. It's not even as big a jump as from OS X 10.2-10.4! The bottom line is everyone will be using it in 5 years though. 5 years ago, people said "I'll just use Windows 98!" It does not work that way. I have to know how to use it for my job, so I am not fighting it (nor do I have a choice!).

It is a solid update to XP, but not revolutionary in any way. Revolutionary is the jump between Mac OS 9 and OS X. Goodcow made a good point about the differences between Windows DVD Builder and iDVD. No offense to anyone in particular, but the average person doesn't care and they don't see the differences in elegant vs not so elegant. They don't see the value in paying for a Mac for that stuff.

There is something about Windows that looks very basic, even with the Glass UI in Vista. It just does not look as richly colored as OS X, I can not describe it, like 256 colors vs 32 bit.

ALL IMHO (that can be shizophrenic).
 
BocoDragon said:
So.... your Media Center PC is hooked up to your home theater... your 360 is hooked up to your home theater... and you wish you could play your 360 through your media center PC.... on your home theater? I don't get it.

And no, it really wouldn't be possible to stream 360 content over the network and onto your computer..... thats a whole lot different than sending a simple music or movie file over a network to be played on a 360 or whatever.


The idea would be that rather than having to switch inputs on my reciever and projector, I could just scroll down and enter my games section of my media center. And all my music, video and games (e.g. XBLA) would all be managed under one OS.

It's almost like Xbox media center was a better design for this than a media center PC (excluding the TV part).

I know its all pretty unrealistic, it just pisses me off that all the connectivity promised by the x360 is geared toward people who have seperate gaming and home theater set-ups.
 

yayaba

Member
Taichu said:
You could easily tell which window was "in front" by looking at the X button.

That's what I was thinking. Can it be more duh?!?

Then again, there isn't as much visual difference as there is in XP with the whole title bar being shaded.
 

aaaaa0

Member
Pfft. He's over-reacting.

Every time MS runs late on a major-OS update, a whole bunch of "OMG THE SKY IS FALLING" articles get pushed out.

I remember stuff like this happening for Windows 2000, and that turned out great. I'm pretty sure the bugs will get fixed and it'll all come together in the next 6 months or so.
 

shantyman

WHO DEY!?
How is he not overreacting? They promised the world and are not delivering.

I am typing this on a Windows Vista beta machine now. It is a nice improvement in a lot of ways over XP, but NOT revolutionary. That's the point- not that it is BAD, but it is not "insanely great" as Steve Jobs would say.

Paul Thurrot is the most avowed fan of Windows and Microsoft there is, his comments should be taken seriously.
 

frogg609

Member
I ran the Vista Beta for a bit. Like shantyman said, it is a nice improvement on XP. If Microsoft had just kept thei mouth shut when they were first working on it, when it actually comes out, everyone would be happy.
Unfortunately, Microsoft tooted their own horn a bit much, bragged a bit too much, and now everyone expects the world.

In the end though, it doesn't really matter, because everyone will wind up using it anyway, since it will become the standard.
 

aoi tsuki

Member
shantyman said:
How is he not overreacting? They promised the world and are not delivering.

I am typing this on a Windows Vista beta machine now. It is a nice improvement in a lot of ways over XP, but NOT revolutionary. That's the point- not that it is BAD, but it is not "insanely great" as Steve Jobs would say.
That, and worries of DRM (not unlike those in XP before its release) are making me wonder why i should even bother with Windows now. i'm not a PC gamer, and with Bootcamp there in case i did (for whatever reason) need to run XP on my Mac, i'm wonder why i should even bother with Vista.

The main reason i upgraded to XP at the time was for stability and improved memory management of 98/ME. i'm looking over the feature list of Vista, and just coming away with an increased level of apathy towards the OS. No WinFS. Virtual folders are gone. Or changed. Or changed and hidden. i can't remember. There's the sidebar, and widgets. But hey, there's also Google Desktop and Konfabulator (Yahoo Widgets, whatever). And they're here now. There's also Aero themes if you like the interface (i don't). Win98 had similar such "hacks" to make it an XP clone by the time XP was released, but XP was a noticeably better, and i'd say necessary OS. i'm not getting that feeling from Vista.

i guess it's a nonissue since the many will eventually migrate to Vista in the same way they did with XP, either via upgrading or buying a new PC. But for those who use, where's the wow factor with Vista? i was more excited about seeing iDVD presented a month or so ago on the last Apple keynote than anything i've seen for Vista.

It should also be noted that this is part five of an ongoing review of the latest community technology preview. It's not like he devoted an entire review to slam this build, nor is he slamming the OS as a final product. If i read correctly, the review covers the latest two builds, the last better than the last. In contrast with what you read on that page, on the first part of the review he says "In fact, I'm feeling better about Windows Vista than I have in a long, long time."
 

bionic77

Member
I originally switched to XP for the stability. It was so nice to be able to leave your pc on for a week without having to worry about the OS crashing. Everything on top of that was just gravy. My next laptop is definitely going to be the MacBook Pro though, just because I am sick of Windows for the time being and also I feel no one makes a notebook as well as Apple. I will be sure to chime in after my purchase and let people know if the change was worth it.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
Why the hell is he reviewing a beta? Vista does not ship for another nine months, minimum. Offering up criticism of a public beta is good input, but he's making it sound like a definitive review.
 

EGM92

Member
Shantyman: Question about your Vista box. Did you use 5308? if so did you use the upgrade feature to install any later versions or just a fresh install?

Paul Thurott shouldn't be releasing his personal views on a Beta to the public, though they are great for constructive criticism and he should inform MS about minor problems like he states in the fucking private newsgroups. Many idiots will take what he says and think he's bashing the OS and "OMGZ! OSX IS GOD!".

IMO no one should review or even think about using any BETA OS until at least RC1 as a main OS. Till then nothing is set in stone, if you were around when XP betas came around you'll know what a drastic change it had from Beta 1 - RC1 (Vista right now is Beta 1 / Pre-beta 2) there's a lot of time for change. If anyone has seen shots of the 5361 shots, there's some minor changes in the GUI compared to 5308 and 5342 and there will continue to be changes until well into BETA 2.
 

shantyman

WHO DEY!?
EGM92 said:
Shantyman: Question about your Vista box. Did you use 5308? if so did you use the upgrade feature to install any later versions or just a fresh install?

Paul Thurott shouldn't be releasing his personal views on a Beta to the public, though they are great for constructive criticism and he should inform MS about minor problems like he states in the fucking private newsgroups. Many idiots will take what he says and think he's bashing the OS and "OMGZ! OSX IS GOD!".

IMO no one should review or even think about using any BETA OS until at least RC1 as a main OS. Till then nothing is set in stone, if you were around when XP betas came around you'll know what a drastic change it had from Beta 1 - RC1 (Vista right now is Beta 1 / Pre-beta 2) there's a lot of time for change. If anyone has seen shots of the 5361 shots, there's some minor changes in the GUI compared to 5308 and 5342 and there will continue to be changes until well into BETA 2.

It is a fresh install, build 5308.

I don't see a problem with beta reviews, because this is one way MS gets feedback. Some people, even IT people, so not have access to beats or the private newsgroups, so this is a source of info for them as well as consumers. Just IMHO.

EGM, are you sure Aero Glass is not in 5308? I swear it is.
 
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