Support NeoGAF

[ElyrionX]

So Tycho wrote the following about UT3 about a week ago:

Mod support on the PS3 has been a remarkably elegant PR maneuver for both Sony and Epic, scourging Microsoft's tender, unguarded flank with a profound populist message. Never mind that the PS3 version didn't actually support mods at launch, and even now that they are patching in their campaign promises you can't just download mods from the PlayStation browser and use them directly. Mods need to come over on memory cards for some inexplicable reason. Indeed, gamers lured by the promise of the $400 forty gig machine (or those who purchased the twenty-gig, as I did) don't even have the slots to use mods built in. Oh, you weren't aware? I'm sure they'll be glad to hear that.

Mark Rein responded and here is Tycho's latest post about it:

Epic's Mark Rein took exception to my recent post about Unreal Tournament III on the Playstation 3, being sure to CC the personal correspondence to his trusted agents elsewhere.

> > the PS3 version didn't actually support mods at launch, and even now that
> > they are patching in their campaign promises
>
> That is incorrect. The PS3 version of UT3 supports mods right out of
> the box.

Yes, but the PC version doesn't. And that's where you make them.

> The Unreal Editor that ships with the PC version requires an
> update (which is hopefully coming very soon) to allow end-users be
> able to "cook" mods into the proper format required for the PS3. This
> functionality requires us to release some code provided by Sony and
> we're working through the licensing paperwork with them now. In the
> mean time we've picked a few cool UT3 mods off the Internet, cooked
> them ourselves (with the same tools we expect to release to end-users
> shortly) and released them back to the Internet in the proper format.
> We started with a single map but we're going to release a few more
> maps, a mutator and a new gametype later today. These are all
> user-created mods - all we're doing is converting them into the PS3
> format. We're working on some cool stuff of our own to release down
> the road as well.

I'm not talking about down the road, though - I'm talking about at the launch of your retail product. Saying that you, yourself can bring mods over to the Playstation 3 doesn't even begin to answer my point. I already know you can bring content to the box, because the game is available at retail. I'm saying that the tools don't exist now for users to accomplish the incredible feats you have promised over the course of this game's development. Like the gods of old, you are withholding fire. The difference is that Zeus had no PR agency on Mount Olympus to call his tyranny benevolence.

> > Mods need to come over on memory cards for some inexplicable reason.
> > Indeed, gamers lured by the promise of the $400 forty gig machine (or those
> > who purchased the twenty-gig, as I did) don't even have the slots to use mods built in.
>
> You don't need a "memory card". I use the term "memory card" but in
> fact any PS3 readable memory device should do. A USB memory stick
> plugged into one of the PS3's USB ports (all models of PS3 have USB
> ports) works fine. If you already have a memory card from a digital
> camera and you want to use that then you can buy a pretty cheap USB
> memory card reader and plug it that into the USB port of the PS3. One
> of our guys even used an iPod to transfer the files on to his PS3.

From his hacked iPod, you mean. Remember: if you want to use mods on your PS3, it's easy! Just install Linux on your music player. Look, I'm sorry if your scenario is so tangled that you can't even express it yourself in interviews. What type of external storage you need to use isn't even my concern, so the ability to use Jump Drives doesn't speak to the issue. The fact of the matter is that you can't play mods without additional hardware, or media, or both. Period. The problem is simply more substantial on some models than others. The reality is that there are still many people surprised to learn the actual parameters of your product's much-touted mod support.

And yeah, I know about Mutators. I doubt very seriously that Mutators are what comes to mind when people think about "mods." You don't want the liability, and you don't want to host, you don't want to moderate, and Sony's "Open Platform" is apparently only semipermeable, so owners of the more costly Playstation 3 version get a diminished experience.

This entire discussion is about one partially delivered part of the game. I'm not saying it's a bad game. It's a good game. And it should be, since they've released it twice before.

> We'd appreciate it if you could let your readers know about this.

Oh, I'll bet you would.

As Huckster General for Epic MegaGames, of course you have interpreted your products with the maximum charity. As a consumer, I've assessed them by a more robust standard. Be sure to send any other tidbits my way in the future, so that I may again separate wheat from chaff.

(CW)TB out.

I love the Penny Arcade guys but Tycho is somewhat of a dick in his post though he does raise some very valid points.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

The difference is that Zeus had no PR agency on Mount Olympus to call his tyranny benevolence.

That's a pretty awesome sentence.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

Mark Rein deserves every ounce of it

 

[Icarus]

Tyco is a self righteous, pedandic prick in that scenario. Epic is forcing user created content to become a "platform issue" where otherwise I'm sure MS and Sony would be just as happy to have it not be a problem they have to deal with. Believe it or not that eventually helps all gamers, even if there's some growing pains associated with that.

If I were Mark, I'd tell Tyco to fuck the hell off and call it a day. They'll get it right soon, I'm sure.

 

[mrklaw]

no, he has no valide points, he is being an arse IMO. As much as you might think it fun to be rude to Mark Rein, at least don't be such a nitpicker - its just demeaning.

Fact is, even if you can't export mods in the right format out-of-box on PC, you can still create them, and chances are that the tools will be ready by the time you are. Or are all modders capable of creating great things within seconds of the game hitting the streets?

and that ipod comment is just being childish. If you can use a USB memory stick then thats fine, just leave it at that.

 

[Cmagus]

its true it sucks the tools aren't there yet but if you are a mod just head to their forums and post your mods they have taken a few and with the tools and released them for PS3 download.I hope they sort out their legal issues because I'm nearing completion on a mod and Id like to play it on PS3.

 

[ram]

the only complain is - that you dont get the editor with the ps3 version. as for the rest: who the fuck cares? there are already maps and mods for ps3 out there and they are fucking free.

 

[Captain Glanton]

Fuck Epic.

 

[Avrum]

Dick or not, Tycho laid down the law on that one. Seems a bit nitpicky since in the end you still should be able to accomplish the task, but he makes a good point that the necessary tools to do so at the moment aren't there and extra hardware is required outside the box to make use of it is something that wasn't exactly made known when the prospect of user created mods were touted for the PS3.

Tycho simply saw through the bullshit.

 

[EMBee99]

Gabe and Tycho have had themselves a banner year. I back these guys as Secretaries of Gaming for 2008.

 

[sk3tch]

Meh.

I'm guessing Epic chose to go the "memory card" route (which is very easy to utilize since it does support USB jump drives, etc.) because if they had to use the PlayStation store or something "official" it would get caught up in endless red tape and make every individual release difficult.

I mean, yeah...it'd be nice to have this stuff downloadable via the browser from their website, but the current solution as it stands is just not as inelegant as Tycho has made it out to be. At least it is not worth this amount of bitching.

 

[The Orange]

This looks more like acting like a little bitch than "pwning".

 

[keanerie]

Sometimes the dude just loves his fancy wordsmithery more than anything else.

Here, I think he has some valid points but tips a little bit toward bein a dick. But I'm still behind him 100%, cause I'm behind dicks.

 

[harSon]

no, he has no valide points, he is being an arse IMO. As much as you might think it fun to be rude to Mark Rein, at least don't be such a nitpicker - its just demeaning.

Fact is, even if you can't export mods in the right format out-of-box on PC, you can still create them, and chances are that the tools will be ready by the time you are. Or are all modders capable of creating great things within seconds of the game hitting the streets?

and that ipod comment is just being childish. If you can use a USB memory stick then thats fine, just leave it at that.

He has a point. Not being able to use the biggest feature that you've been running your mouth about for nearly a year is simply laughable. It would be the equivalent of Little Big Planet launching without it's customization mode or Halo 3 launching without online. It makes no sense to launch your game without it's largest selling point (next to online).

 

[Hitler Stole My Potato]

No matter how you feel about it, you gotta give Tycho props for word smithery. The guy knows how to lay the smack down.

 

[loosus]

I'm certainly no Rein fan, but this "Tycho" character sounds like a dumb fuck. Sorry.

"HUH HUH LOOK WHAT I SAID TO MARK GUYZ HUH HUH AINT THAT A GOOD ONE"

No matter how you feel about it, you gotta give Tycho props for word smithery. The guy knows how to lay the smack down.

Uh, no. It sounds stupid.

 

[AtomicShroom]

no, he has no valide points, he is being an arse IMO. As much as you might think it fun to be rude to Mark Rein, at least don't be such a nitpicker - its just demeaning.

Fact is, even if you can't export mods in the right format out-of-box on PC, you can still create them, and chances are that the tools will be ready by the time you are. Or are all modders capable of creating great things within seconds of the game hitting the streets?

and that ipod comment is just being childish. If you can use a USB memory stick then thats fine, just leave it at that.

I think you guys are missing the point. It's not so much the fact that the stuff isn't ready, nor easy, nor that it requires you to buy extra shit that he's complaining about.

It's the fact that Mark Rein (and their PR) purposely hyped the modding feature through the roof, while carefully and systematically not mentioning (or flat out lying) about all these issues.

 

[KTallguy]

Honestly, I agree with Tycho a little bit.

But the major point is that consoles are supposed to be a seamless experience, free of dicking around with computers and such nonsense. The average person doesn't really want to have to transfer files back and forth from their PC to their PS3.

It would have been better if some kind of service was implemented in UT3 where you could download the mods and install them directly to your PS3.

 

[Visualante]

Mark Rein is taking a lot of flak, he was simply selling the product a little prematurely.

He got it out for Christmas, the game plays fine, the mods don't work yet. It's not like anyone is bored of the supplied content... are they?

This whole memory card thing is pretty amateur, get your facts straight before biting someone, k?

 

[Beer Monkey]

I wonder, would it be possible for them to set up a web page for the PS3 browser that would allow you to select mods, and have it execute script to save them in the right place?

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

Holy crap, that was catty. So he has to wait for full mod functionality and has to use a usb drive like everybody under the sun owns. Sure, say "it's weak that the project didn't ship with a bonus option fully functional", but going into full-on attack mode and calling him "huckster general"? What did Rein do to deserve that?

 

[v0yce]

Tych should really get his facts straight before going on a rant. He looks like an idiot on the whole "memory card" thing.

And I've used my non "hacked" iPod in the same manner plenty of time. (not with the PS3 though, so that may be different)

I've got to say that PA looks like the goat here.

 

[theBishop]

I just don't understand what Penny-Arcade is getting at here.

Yeah, its annoying that users can't "cook" their own content yet. We know its coming, and in the mean time Epic is cooking the best stuff for us! They didn't have to do that.

So they are sort of right in being sticklers about the fact that we can't produce our own stuff yet. I think they are being assholes suggesting that Epic is anything approaching "tyranny", but whatever.

Where they completely lose me is the USB/flash issue. Why the fuck is he talking about hacking an Ipod? Ipod is a USB storage device. I have a 60GB PS3 with the flash cards, and I still used a USB thumbdrive. And guess what: I didn't have to "hack" my thumbdrive to get it working. Tycho is exposing his own technical ineptitude here. Sad.

Next up: Class action lawsuit against Epic because you have to unzip the mods before you import them! These greedy bastards are not living up to their promises!!!


.

There was a right way to do this. Here's the headline: "Make UT3 Idiot-Proof: 5 Suggestions"

Instead the post has a wrongheadedly bitter tone like a spoiled kid bitching on christmas because his Power Rangers playset wasn't under the tree only to find that his grandmother got it for him when she arrives a few hours later.

Grow up, Tycho you're looking like an imbecile here.

 

[kaching]

Is there previous bad blood between Epic and the PA boys? The tone of Tycho's responses is way out of proportion to what Rein actually says.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

"He has a point. Not being able to use the biggest feature that you've been running your mouth about for nearly a year is simply laughable. It would be the equivalent of Little Big Planet launching without it's customization mode or Halo 3 launching without online. It makes no sense to launch your game without it's largest selling point (next to online)."


You can use a usb drive no?

 

[Borys]

Meh, more console drama.

 

[D2M15]

The tone of Tycho's responses is way out of proportion to what Rein actually says.

Dude, it's Penny Arcade.

 

[TheDuce22]

Did this game even break 100k in sales? I know it completely bombed on the PC. This issue hardly effects anyone.

 

[Kintaro]

I give Epic credit for managing to get the game out to PS3 owners despite that UT3 had an announced delay for the console. Was going to be the cruddy icing on the delay cake for the system this year, but they got it out anyways.

That earns them some points from me to get the mod thing worked out with time.

 

[Zombie James]

Mods need to come over on memory cards for some inexplicable reason.

USB flash drives? But i know, those are expensive and hard to come by.

edit: Just got to the Linux iPod part :lol Is it possible he doesn't have a clue about the iPod's disk mode? RTFM!

 

[fatigues_gasolini]

Well, Ill cut them some slack considering the fact that this is the first pc to console map making system thats been in place. Im sure it will become streamline in the future. If you own a ps3, and ut3, and are looking for mods, then you probably have some aptitude of getting them to the ps3.

 

[v0yce]

I think you guys are missing the point. It's not so much the fact that the stuff isn't ready, nor easy, nor that it requires you to buy extra shit that he's complaining about.

It's the fact that Mark Rein (and their PR) purposely hyped the modding feature through the roof, while carefully and systematically not mentioning (or flat out lying) about all these issues.

Really? When the game stealth dropped, most people were complaing about there being zero hype and marketing push.

 

[urk]

So, why can't you simply download maps from PSN?

 

[loosus]

Dude, it's Penny Arcade.

So if "it's Penny Arcade" is the excuse, does that mean that everything that comes from them is inherently wrong and unprofessional?

You can call someone out on something without being a total idiot. I know Tycho is all against "the tyranny" or whatever, but being halfway nice isn't giving into secret governmental agents who are trying to censor you, believe it or not.

 

[mrklaw]

Honestly, I agree with Tycho a little bit.

But the major point is that consoles are supposed to be a seamless experience, free of dicking around with computers and such nonsense. The average person doesn't really want to have to transfer files back and forth from their PC to their PS3.

It would have been better if some kind of service was implemented in UT3 where you could download the mods and install them directly to your PS3.

honestly, how were people honestly expecting to get mods from PC to PS3? Half of you put firmware updates, themes etc on USB sticks. Is it such a big deal that they don't have some full file download service created? So fucking what?

jesus.

 

[Visualante]

Did this game even break 100k in sales? I know it completely bombed on the PC. This issue hardly effects anyone.

Kind of effects the mod scene indirectly when nobody there is to play what you create.
I don't see many PS3 owners going out of their way either, some of them might not even have good PCs to run Max and Photoshop.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

So, why can't you simply download maps from PSN?

I had assumed this was how it was going to work. Or at least come kind of Bungie.net functionality where you can queue it up somewhere and then DL it in game.

 

[Rice-Eater]

So, why can't you simply download maps from PSN?

I remember something about Rein saying that it would kill your bandwidth but I just don't get it. Could someone explain why we can't just download through PSN or the browser? I mean as long as the download finishes, it won't hurt your bandwidth anymore, right?

 

[Forgotten Ancient]

I'm sorry, but Tycho really comes off as a dick here. His reply to the various types of memory by saying "OMG I CAN USE MY LINUXED IPOD" are really narrow-minded, stubborn, and cocky. I rarely pay attention to him, and if this is any indication of how his typical interviews or op-eds are I ain't missing much.

 

[Kintaro]

So, why can't you simply download maps from PSN?

Epic maybe not have wanted to bother with it since Sony's approval process for PSN takes so damn long... =(

 

[Ikuu]

So, why can't you simply download maps from PSN?

Because then Sony would need to approve the maps, or allow people to upload anything to PSN, and do you really see them allowing that?

 

[The Faceless Master]

tycho's attitude in the response seems to be making people miss the point.

mark rein overpromised and underdelivered!

if this confusing mess is supposed to make microsoft say "hey, sure, we should allow user generated content too" then we're all fucked.

and i still don't understand why there is no *option* to have servers send maps if people are missing them...

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Yawn, I really wonder why people even bother with the hit-chasing antics that Penny Arcade seem to engage in every week.

Yeah, that comic has been jetting quickly into irrelevance. If they don't get enough hits they might not be able to fund a massive Gaming Conference every year.

Oh, wait, "irrelevance" means "massively popular and generating enough revenue to fund a massive Gaming Conference every year," right?

 

[BirdBomb]

where was the pwn? all i see is some short ugly fat dude whining about something he doesn't even know everything about.

"bububu use your hacked ipod!!"

or just a typical usb drive, idiot.

if rein replies again, he should just send a picture of tycho. laughter will surely ensue.

 

[AtomicShroom]

So, why can't you simply download maps from PSN?

Because they don't want the liability. They don't want to moderate. They don't want to have the content approved by Sony to show up on PSN. They don't want to use their own bandwidth. etc etc etc...

In other words, they want it to be as hassle-free as possible to them. They'd rather put the hassle on the users instead.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

mark rein overpromised and underdelivered!

just like he always does, I don't know why some people here are defending him.

 

[WHOAguitarninja]

...Logic...

Pretty much my thoughts. Yes, he's right...the tools aren't quite ready for prime time. The issue is not with the game itself though, it's with the tools. Saying the PC version doesn't support mods is flat out wrong, otherwise you wouldn't have seen the content created for the PS3 version that you have seen. It's just missing the "cook for PS3" option right now. It'll be here soon, theres no reason for Tycho to get on a high horse and call Epic a tyrant (seriouly...what the flying fuck?) over what really is a non issue.

Lost a lot of respect for him here.

 

[v0yce]

tycho's attitude in the response seems to be making people miss the point.

mark rein overpromised and underdelivered!

if this confusing mess is supposed to make microsoft say "hey, sure, we should allow user generated content too" then we're all fucked.

and i still don't understand why there is no *option* to have servers send maps if people are missing them...

That's the problem you get when you're complaining about someone else not shooting it straight, when half of your own information is wrong. =/

 

[rollingstart]

No matter how you feel about it, you gotta give Tycho props for word smithery. The guy knows how to lay the smack down.

I cant really agree, Rein had an informative tone in the letter he sent Tycho, but Tycho reacted like Rein personally insulted his intelligence. I get that Penny Arcade arent really professional and dont have to follow certain guidelines, but it wouldent hurt to have some composure in situations like this so you dont come of as a total prick.

 

[Visualante]

Guys, maybe I'm having delusions but I'm pretty sure Rein said it can happen in the future. Just not yet.
Sony has to get their stuff together, but in theory there will be a library online where you can download from a server to your hard drive.

There are serious security issues to be resolved here which is why it's taking time. I'm sure they'll do it in the future. You can't build rome in a day.