Support NeoGAF

[Deleted member 17706]

The issue is the *and*. What do you have to support this claim?

The data from England. I shared it here, too, but here is a table I made from the data of their last 4 official biweekly reports that look at people who received emergency care. You can view all of the source data here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...2-variant-variant-of-concern-20201201#history

As you can see, while completely unvaccinated people account for 53% of the total cases and the unvaccinated account for just 13% (with the 1-dose group being 24% and the rest being of an unknown status), there are still a very large amount of vaccinated people getting the disease to the point where they need emergency care. That means there are almost certainly a lot more getting infected and not having symptoms.

You do see a clear benefit in protection from death in the >50 age group, where 220 of 13,427 fully vaccinated cases (1.63849%) ended in death, whereas 131 of 2,337 unvaccinated cases (5.60548%) ended in death.

However, that benefit basically disappears in the <50 age group, where 4 of 15,346 fully vaccinated cases (0.02607%) ended in death and 34 of 119,063 unvaccinated cases (0.02856%) ended in death.

Curiously, when it comes to a death outcome, the 1-dose group seems to be the best off with only 0.01233% of those under <50 cases resulting in death and 1.08336% of >50 cases resulting in death.

Still, the overall absolute numbers are possibly too small to make any decisive judgments, but either way, the lowered lethality of the Delta should bode well for any country in which it is currently running wild.

They also posted the respective CFR for the different variants, too. It's not in Report 19 for some reason, but in Report 18 on page 11 or Table 3, you can see that the government's official figures show a CFR for Delta of 0.2% to 0.3% with a 95% confidence interval.

Finally, while India's absolute deaths were large, when you look at them as a proportion of their population, they got off very lightly compared to a lot of nations.

 

[EviLore]

*Coooooof*
Basically I'm just not get the it's science mRNA gene editing "vaccine".

Messenger RNA is normally used by your body to copy and paste data from the DNA in the nucleus of cells to ribosomes for protein synthesis. That way your DNA doesn't have to leave the nucleus to do it directly.

With an mRNA vaccine, instead of copying data from your DNA to perform a task, the mRNA is already programmed ahead of time to produce a specific spike protein which activates your immune system to work against Covid. The mRNA is broken down by your body afterward.

Understanding mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines

Learn how mRNA vaccines trigger an immune response against COVID-19.

www.cdc.gov

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Sorry, but no. The reason cases have come down to a manageable level is literally because of the vaccine. Now there's a new variant spreading among the unvaccinated getting ready to put us in another lockdown because we still have idiots spreading misinformation and causing vaccine hesitancy. Enough is enough, no more excuses or "decide for yourself" bullshit. Grow up and get the damn shot.

What new variant have you discovered that apparently no one else has? There is no sign that the vaccinated are not being infected or spreading the virus. Are they spreading it at a lower rate than the unvaccinated? Perhaps, but the jury is still out. Even if they are, to what degree? Still very unclear.

Cases are coming down because that's what they do, especially with the Delta. It doesn't seem to have very flat peaks. Again, look at India (tiny vaccination rate) and the UK (high vaccination rate).

Here's a good resource if you weren't aware of it already: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

 

[Dev1lXYZ]

About 3 weeks after I got my 2nd vaccine shot, I started experiencing chronic dizziness and balance issues. Severe at times. I went to the ENT and they said I tested negative for chronic vertigo. I booked a neurologist appointment, but the wait time is several months. I saw Rogan the other day and Jimmy Dore said he had brain fog and brain inflammation, and now I'm wonder if my dizziness issues are related to the shots. His was immediately after and mine wasn't. I doubt it because I figured it wouldn't develop at random 3 weeks after my shot, but I want to rule it out to be safe.

I had constant pain in both of my shoulders after my first Pfizer dose…..that lasted until my second one. It went away after that, but comes back whenever my body comes into contact with the virus. In my office we are all crammed into a single open floor. People are bringing it into the office weekly. This week it hit pretty hard and my shoulders went into overdrive. I describe it like being picked up by a giant and shaken. I also got one heck of a headache today. I went and had a rapid test done, but no breakthrough yet, thankfully.

I hope you don’t have anything major going on.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I had constant pain in both of my shoulders after my first Pfizer dose…..that lasted until my second one. It went away after that, but comes back whenever my body comes into contact with the virus. In my office we are all crammed into a single open floor. People are bringing it into the office weekly. This week it hit pretty hard and my shoulders went into overdrive. I describe it like being picked up by a giant and shaken. I also got one heck of a headache today. I went and had a rapid test done, but no breakthrough yet, thankfully.

I hope you don’t have anything major going on.

You sure that isn't just people bringing in their 5G phones?

(har har)

 

[FinalxBoss]

What new variant have you discovered that apparently no one else has? There is no sign that the vaccinated are not being infected or spreading the virus. Are they spreading it at a lower rate than the unvaccinated? Perhaps, but the jury is still out. Even if they are, to what degree? Still very unclear.

Cases are coming down because that's what they do, especially with the Delta. It doesn't seem to have very flat peaks. Again, look at India (tiny vaccination rate) and the UK (high vaccination rate).

Here's a good resource if you weren't aware of it already: https://www.worldometers.info/corona

Stop trying to be cute, you know I was referring to the Delta variant. I'm not going to waste my time on a bunch of stupid whataboutisms. You already posted a chart showing the number of cases more than tripling in the past month alone. The vaccine works, take the L.

 

[Romulus]

I heard the J&J is not a bad option if you're a male. All the blood clotting was females and extremely rare at that.

 

[Dev1lXYZ]

You sure that isn't just people bringing in their 5G phones?

(har har)

LOL. No, I have a 5G iPhone around me constantly. No issues. Not magnetic either, unfortunately. I missed out on all the fun stuff!

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Stop trying to be cute, you know I was referring to the Delta variant. I'm not going to waste my time on a bunch of stupid whataboutisms. You already posted a chart showing the number of cases more than tripling in the past month alone. The vaccine works, take the L.

The Delta is not a new variant at all. It really does spread regardless of vaccination level. Israel is 62% fully vaccinated and their daily average of cases is up 10x compared to this time last month. Before the UK's Delta wave really started, they were seeing around 2,500 average daily cases and they peaked at 54,000 or around 20x. They were over 50% fully vaccinated.

 

[FinalxBoss]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/07/25/health/us-coronavirus-sunday/index.html

You're wrong.
Take the L.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/07/25/health/us-coronavirus-sunday/index.html

You're wrong.
Take the L.

Are you trolling me?

I feel like I've backed up my arguments fairly well and cited sources to justify them, and you're just directing me to a fear-mongering CNN article reporting on what some dude is saying?

You can look at hospitalization data here: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-hospitalizations
You can look at death data here: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths

Numbers remain comparatively low. To say we are "spiraling out of control" is sensational nonsense considering we actually have spiraled out of control multiple times in the last year and have clear comparison points. We know what spiraling out of control looks like. This isn't it. The kind of numbers we are seeing now would never have been enough to justify the initial lockdowns and restrictions.

You can look at the UK, who was far ahead of us in terms of Delta spread and had a similar level of vaccination, and it is clear they have severed (or greatly reduced) the link between cases and hospitalizations and deaths. There is little reason to expect a different result in the United States.

 

[FinalxBoss]

Are you trolling me?

I feel like I've backed up my arguments fairly well and cited sources to justify them, and you're just directing me to a fear-mongering CNN article reporting on what some dude is saying?

You can look at hospitalization data here: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-hospitalizations
You can look at death data here: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths

Numbers remain comparatively low. To say we are "spiraling out of control" is sensational nonsense considering we actually have spiraled out of control multiple times in the last year and have clear comparison points. We know what spiraling out of control looks like. This isn't it. The kind of numbers we are seeing now would never have been enough to justify the initial lockdowns and restrictions.

You can look at the UK, who was far ahead of us in terms of Delta spread and had a similar level of vaccination, and it is clear they have severed (or greatly reduced) the link between cases and hospitalizations and deaths. There is little reason to expect a different result in the United States.

https://www.umassmed.edu/news/news-...ck-in-covid-19-cases-largely-in-unvaccinated/

You're wrong.
Take the L.

Edit:
Wrong article
Still wrong

 

[DeepBreath87]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/07/25/health/us-coronavirus-sunday/index.html

You're wrong.
Take the L.

He’s not wrong. You’re wrong. A CNN article quoting some guy isn’t data.

 

[FinalxBoss]

He’s not wrong. You’re wrong. A CNN article quoting some guy isn’t data.

Please read the edit.
I'm still right.
They're still wrong.
L still there.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Edit: nevermind that was in poor taste.

I’ll just drop it with said poster.

 

[FinalxBoss]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.tw...y-and-hospitalizations-continue-to-climb/amp/

For whoever needs to hear it. Covid is a serious issue, don't fall for the online misinformation campaign trying to downplay the severity. Protect yourself and others. Get the shot.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.tw...y-and-hospitalizations-continue-to-climb/amp/

For whoever needs to hear it. Covid is a serious issue, don't fall for the online misinformation campaign trying to downplay the severity. Protect yourself and others. Get the shot.

3 whole deaths on Monday? Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck.

Also, I just realized you were absent for 5 years and came back solely to promotepost in this thread. That is certainly interesting.

Anyway, we've got a more general COVID thread over here if you're interested. https://www.neogaf.com/threads/covi...-about-masks-of-fauci-edition.1608887/page-58

 

[sackings]

Everytime i see this thread title i think of the Papa EA meme....

 

[Rentahamster]

The "sources" you linked were all speculation based on assumptions, largely from data not even looking at the currently dominant variant.

1. Why is "sources" in scare quotes? You don't think Nature or The University of Arizona are reputable?

2. This isn't about only the currently dominant variant. It's inaccurate to focus just on that. What I wrote about applies to all viruses in general. Even if it so happens that there's no appreciable difference in viral load and transmissibility among the delta variant (there is though - it's less), that doesn't make what I said invalid. If anything, that emphasizes the point that the world should have gotten vaccinated ASAP in order to eradicate the alpha strain and stop it in its tracks.

Regardless, this is what the American CDC Director is saying today.

CDC recommends the vaccinated wear masks in some areas

Administration officials had been struggling in recent days with how to respond to a rising number of Covid-19 infections and hospitalization among those who are fully vaccinated.

www.nbcnews.com

So, with that established, the only question is if vaccinated people get infected less. It certainly doesn't look very likely.

You're interpreting that wrong. Just because vaccinated people can still pass on the disease, doesn't mean they do it at the same frequency or contract it at the same frequency as unvaccinated people, too. Vaccinated people are much less likely to get infected. The director said as much in the press briefing. In the cases of breakthrough infection, the viral load appears the same, yes, but since breakthrough infections are less frequent (due to the protection vaccination infers), the burden is lessened. She says that we are still largely in a pandemic of the unvaccinated (around 8 min 30 seconds in), which means that the unvaccinated people are by far the main driver of the continued existence of this pandemic. If you keep providing fertile ground for an organism, that organism will thrive.

Even at 13:50, she goes on to talk about how the large community of unvaccinated people is providing a safe haven for the virus to spread, replicate, and possible mutate into an even more transmissible version. It's their largest concern, in fact.

As I said before, and as it related to my point about vaccines providing a barrier to virus evolution, it doesn't matter if your body is ground zero for a new, stronger variant, if no one else gets infected by it.

Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)

CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.

www.cdc.gov

Evidence suggests the U.S. COVID-19 vaccination program has the potential to substantially reduce the burden of disease in the United States by preventing serious illness in fully vaccinated people and interrupting chains of transmission. The risks of SARS-CoV-2 infection in fully vaccinated people cannot be completely eliminated where community transmission of the virus is widespread. Vaccinated people can still become infected and spread the virus to others. Current efforts to maximize the proportion of the U.S. population that is fully vaccinated against COVID-19 remain critical to ending the COVID-19 pandemic.

COVID-19 vaccines currently authorized in the United States have been shown to be effective against SARS-CoV-2 infections, including asymptomatic and symptomatic infection, severe disease, and death. These findings, along with the early evidence for reduced viral load in vaccinated people who develop COVID-19, suggest that any associated transmission risk is likely to be substantially reduced in vaccinated people. While vaccine effectiveness against emerging SARS-CoV-2 variants remains under investigation, available evidence suggests that the COVID-19 vaccines presently authorized in the United States offer protection against known emerging variants, including the Delta variant, particularly against hospitalization and death. Data suggest lower vaccine effectiveness against confirmed illness and symptomatic disease caused by the Beta, Gamma, and Delta variants compared with the ancestral strain and Alpha variant.

Data from multiple studies in different countries suggest that people vaccinated with Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine who develop COVID-19 have a lower viral load than unvaccinated people.(41-44) This observation may indicate reduced transmissibility, as viral load has been identified as a key driver of transmission.(45) Two studies from the United Kingdom found significantly reduced likelihood of transmission to household contacts from people infected with SARS-CoV-2 who were previously vaccinated for COVID-19.(25, 46)

Studies from India with vaccines not authorized for use in the United States have noted relatively high viral loads and larger cluster sizes associated with infections with Delta, regardless of vaccination status.(96) These early data suggest that breakthrough Delta infections are transmissible. Unpublished data are consistent with this, and additional data collection and studies are underway to understand the level and duration of transmissibility from Delta vaccine breakthrough infections in the United States and other settings.

• A growing body of evidence indicates that people fully vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna) are less likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2 or to transmit it to others. However, the risk for SARS-CoV-2 breakthrough infection in fully vaccinated people cannot be completely eliminated as long as there is continued community transmission of the virus.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

I heard the J&J is not a bad option if you're a male. All the blood clotting was females and extremely rare at that.

Idk this coworker has a husband who got Jansen and he was told to be careful, collapsing is a side effect - he has collapsed several times since the shot.

 

[Filth]

Idk this coworker has a husband who got Jansen and he was told to be careful, collapsing is a side effect - he has collapsed several times since the shot.

its worth it for the greater good.. even if a reaction to the vaccine is death its good because he cant spread covid....meaning the vaccine worked.


/s.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

its worth it for the greater good.. even if a reaction to the vaccine is death its good because he cant spread covid....meaning the vaccine worked.


/s.

The scary shit is these collapses are instant, no warning… and he rides a motorcycle 8 hours a day working.

 

[Armorian]

Idk this coworker has a husband who got Jansen and he was told to be careful, collapsing is a side effect - he has collapsed several times since the shot.

Holy shit. I had j&j 3 weeks ago and nothing bad happened

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

Holy shit. I had j&j 3 weeks ago and nothing bad happened

I’m glad!

These vaccines aren’t gonna be harbingers of the apocalypse like the crazies say but they got some funky side effects, for sure.

I have an underlying condition and I’m worried because who knows how many people with it were in the trials. It’s been 7 months since mass vaccination began, I’ll give it a few more months.

 

[thefool]

The scary shit is these collapses are instant, no warning… and he rides a motorcycle 8 hours a day working.

Losing conscious momentarily or loss of balance issues?

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

Losing conscious momentarily or loss of balance issues?

Straight up fainting like that, no warning.

 

[Xdrive05]

Pfizer #2 kicked my ass, but I could have another shitty night of fever and shakes I guess - if it ups the efficacy through the winter.

 

[rofif]

I just got the 2nd does. Not only I have no idea what they gave me... it seems nobody knows if it works and maybe we will need a 3rd does?
Even if it works - will this be needed year by year ?

 

[poppabk]

Idk this coworker has a husband who got Jansen and he was told to be careful, collapsing is a side effect - he has collapsed several times since the shot.

Fainting within 15 minutes after getting the shot is a side effect, not randomly fainting days or weeks later. Dude needs to get to a doctor.

 

[FinalxBoss]

3 whole deaths on Monday? Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck.

Also, I just realized you were absent for 5 years and came back solely to promotepost in this thread. That is certainly interesting.

Anyway, we've got a more general COVID thread over here if you're interested. https://www.neogaf.com/threads/covi...-about-masks-of-fauci-edition.1608887/page-58

Can read post history.
Can't read medical data.
Can move the goalposts.
Can't hold an L.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

2. This isn't about only the currently dominant variant. It's inaccurate to focus just on that. What I wrote about applies to all viruses in general. Even if it so happens that there's no appreciable difference in viral load and transmissibility among the delta variant (there is though - it's less), that doesn't make what I said invalid. If anything, that emphasizes the point that the world should have gotten vaccinated ASAP in order to eradicate the alpha strain and stop it in its tracks.

Well, this conversation has been specifically about the Delta variant, since that's what we're dealing with right now and it's the variant that is spreading rapidly even in highly vaccinated areas. It is obviously much more transmissible than other known variants of the virus. Getting vaccinated ASAP to stop the Delta variant doesn't really stand up to logic considering it spreads just fine amongst the vaccinated and was already in the wild late last year before most countries had even done their first injection outside of trials.

You're interpreting that wrong. Just because vaccinated people can still pass on the disease, doesn't mean they do it at the same frequency or contract it at the same frequency as unvaccinated people, too. Vaccinated people are much less likely to get infected. The director said as much in the press briefing. In the cases of breakthrough infection, the viral load appears the same, yes, but since breakthrough infections are less frequent (due to the protection vaccination infers), the burden is lessened.

That's certainly the idea, but to say breakthrough infection is rare is a bit generous. Is symptomatic infection more rare (although this gets complicated since the symptoms that present among the vaccinated with Delta appear to be quite different than those who are unvaccinated)? Quite likely, but the numbers are still not insignificant in the slightest. I keep going back to the England data, but as a proportion of their population, <50 vaccinated individuals are receiving emergency care at a rate of ~22% that of the unvaccinated. >50 vaccinated individuals are receiving emergency care at a rate of ~16% that of the unvaccinated. Since the main function of the vaccines is to reduce disease severity, for that many to still be requiring emergency care means that many, many more are actually being infected. The claim from the UK government that the fully vaccinated have only a 50% relative chance to be infected and another 50% relative chance to pass it on for 75% overall protection from spreading the virus to others seems rather unlikely to me. Still, I'm not trying to claim that the fully vaccinated have no protection against infection. There is surely some, but it looks to be quite small, or at least too small to make a significant difference in the face of the increased viral load that comes with the Delta variant.

She says that we are still largely in a pandemic of the unvaccinated (around 8 min 30 seconds in), which means that the unvaccinated people are by far the main driver of the continued existence of this pandemic. If you keep providing fertile ground for an organism, that organism will thrive.

Even at 13:50, she goes on to talk about how the large community of unvaccinated people is providing a safe haven for the virus to spread, replicate, and possible mutate into an even more transmissible version. It's their largest concern, in fact.

Again, the problem with this claim is that the fully vaccinated also provide fertile enough ground for the Delta to spread. Since May, the CDC made the bizarre decision to not count mere infections in vaccinated people as a "breakthrough case," so quite honestly, anything they say about overall infection rates is already suspect.

As I said before, and as it related to my point about vaccines providing a barrier to virus evolution, it doesn't matter if your body is ground zero for a new, stronger variant, if no one else gets infected by it.

Yes, of course, but it's clear that the Delta does infect the vaccinated at a very high rate, so that's kind of pointless at this point in time.

 

[DeepBreath87]

Well, this conversation has been specifically about the Delta variant, since that's what we're dealing with right now and it's the variant that is spreading rapidly even in highly vaccinated areas. It is obviously much more transmissible than other known variants of the virus. Getting vaccinated ASAP to stop the Delta variant doesn't really stand up to logic considering it spreads just fine amongst the vaccinated and was already in the wild late last year before most countries had even done their first injection outside of trials.



That's certainly the idea, but to say breakthrough infection is rare is a bit generous. Is symptomatic infection more rare (although this gets complicated since the symptoms that present among the vaccinated with Delta appear to be quite different than those who are unvaccinated)? Quite likely, but the numbers are still not insignificant in the slightest. I keep going back to the England data, but as a proportion of their population, <50 vaccinated individuals are receiving emergency care at a rate of ~22% that of the unvaccinated. >50 vaccinated individuals are receiving emergency care at a rate of ~16% that of the unvaccinated. Since the main function of the vaccines is to reduce disease severity, for that many to still be requiring emergency care means that many, many more are actually being infected. The claim from the UK government that the fully vaccinated have only a 50% relative chance to be infected and another 50% relative chance to pass it on for 75% overall protection from spreading the virus to others seems rather unlikely to me. Still, I'm not trying to claim that the fully vaccinated have no protection against infection. There is surely some, but it looks to be quite small, or at least too small to make a significant difference in the face of the increased viral load that comes with the Delta variant.



Again, the problem with this claim is that the fully vaccinated also provide fertile enough ground for the Delta to spread. Since May, the CDC made the bizarre decision to not count mere infections in vaccinated people as a "breakthrough case," so quite honestly, anything they say about overall infection rates is already suspect.



Yes, of course, but it's clear that the Delta does infect the vaccinated at a very high rate, so that's kind of pointless at this point in time.

Not to mention, that if the disease is infecting massive numbers of people while not hospitalizing or killing very many THAT IS A GOOD THING. That means the disease can be treated more like any of the other common respiratory viruses people pass around all the time.

 

[Rentahamster]

Well, this conversation has been specifically about the Delta variant

No it's not. Go back to my original post.

Mutations are caused by errors in the replications process. Most mutations don't have any effect. Some make the virus weaker. Some make the virus stronger, and cause the virus to become deadlier or more infectious.

This is the pathway of evolution. The ability of an organism to make more copies of itself, and the ones that are fitter survive and make more copies of themselves. Repeat. Repeat.

Therefore, how does this process of evolution slow down?

1. Create less opportunities for the virus to replicate itself.

2. Even if a stronger mutation is randomly generated, kill it before it has a chance to reproduce.

This is how animals go endangered and then extinct. They die faster than they can reproduce, and they cannot adapt to changes in their environment quickly enough. This is how smallpox and polio (almost) got eradicated. The global vaccination programs made it so that those viruses can't survive in humans and when the habitable environment of a population is eradicated, so is the population.

Going back to COVID19, the more people who are vaccinated, the less opportunities the virus has to replicate itself, and thus there are less opportunities for mutation to occur. You are far less likely to have a serious complication from COVID if you are vaccinated because your immune system is fighting against the virus from day one, instead of day 3 or 4, for an unvaccinated person. That is a difference of millions, possibly billions of virus replications. The overall viral load is reduced.

Because of the lower viral load, the transmissibility is further reduced. This stops the virus from being able to find new, fertile ground. The more people are vaccinated, the more protected people are, and the less likely the virus will find a person to replicate itself in.

Less replications means less chances of mutation means less chance of one of those mutations making the virus stronger means less variants.

Getting vaccinated ASAP to stop the Delta variant doesn't really stand up to logic considering it spreads just fine amongst the vaccinated

There is surely some, but it looks to be quite small, or at least too small to make a significant difference in the face of the increased viral load that comes with the Delta variant.

Again, the problem with this claim is that the fully vaccinated also provide fertile enough ground for the Delta to spread.

it's clear that the Delta does infect the vaccinated at a very high rate,

This is inaccurate. Look again at what I quoted from the recent CDC guideline update. The one you were basing your opinion off of with that bolded quote you gave me from the CDC director.

Vaccinated people are much less likely to get infected. The director said as much in the press briefing. In the cases of breakthrough infection, the viral load appears the same, yes, but since breakthrough infections are less frequent (due to the protection vaccination infers), the burden is lessened. She says that we are still largely in a pandemic of the unvaccinated (around 8 min 30 seconds in), which means that the unvaccinated people are by far the main driver of the continued existence of this pandemic. If you keep providing fertile ground for an organism, that organism will thrive.

Even at 13:50, she goes on to talk about how the large community of unvaccinated people is providing a safe haven for the virus to spread, replicate, and possible mutate into an even more transmissible version. It's their largest concern, in fact.

Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)

CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.

www.cdc.gov

Evidence suggests the U.S. COVID-19 vaccination program has the potential to substantially reduce the burden of disease in the United States by preventing serious illness in fully vaccinated people and interrupting chains of transmission. The risks of SARS-CoV-2 infection in fully vaccinated people cannot be completely eliminated where community transmission of the virus is widespread. Vaccinated people can still become infected and spread the virus to others. Current efforts to maximize the proportion of the U.S. population that is fully vaccinated against COVID-19 remain critical to ending the COVID-19 pandemic.

COVID-19 vaccines currently authorized in the United States have been shown to be effective against SARS-CoV-2 infections, including asymptomatic and symptomatic infection, severe disease, and death. These findings, along with the early evidence for reduced viral load in vaccinated people who develop COVID-19, suggest that any associated transmission risk is likely to be substantially reduced in vaccinated people. While vaccine effectiveness against emerging SARS-CoV-2 variants remains under investigation, available evidence suggests that the COVID-19 vaccines presently authorized in the United States offer protection against known emerging variants, including the Delta variant, particularly against hospitalization and death. Data suggest lower vaccine effectiveness against confirmed illness and symptomatic disease caused by the Beta, Gamma, and Delta variants compared with the ancestral strain and Alpha variant.

Data from multiple studies in different countries suggest that people vaccinated with Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine who develop COVID-19 have a lower viral load than unvaccinated people.(41-44) This observation may indicate reduced transmissibility, as viral load has been identified as a key driver of transmission.(45) Two studies from the United Kingdom found significantly reduced likelihood of transmission to household contacts from people infected with SARS-CoV-2 who were previously vaccinated for COVID-19.(25, 46)

Studies from India with vaccines not authorized for use in the United States have noted relatively high viral loads and larger cluster sizes associated with infections with Delta, regardless of vaccination status.(96) These early data suggest that breakthrough Delta infections are transmissible. Unpublished data are consistent with this, and additional data collection and studies are underway to understand the level and duration of transmissibility from Delta vaccine breakthrough infections in the United States and other settings.

• A growing body of evidence indicates that people fully vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna) are less likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2 or to transmit it to others. However, the risk for SARS-CoV-2 breakthrough infection in fully vaccinated people cannot be completely eliminated as long as there is continued community transmission of the virus.

 

[Rentahamster]

Not to mention, that if the disease is infecting massive numbers of people while not hospitalizing or killing very many THAT IS A GOOD THING. That means the disease can be treated more like any of the other common respiratory viruses people pass around all the time.

This "good thing" scenario only occurs with the help of vaccinations, therefore getting as many vaccines to as many people as possible is a good thing. The majority of hospitalizations and deaths are occurring amongst the unvaccinated.

‘I’m sorry, but it’s too late’: Alabama doctor on treating unvaccinated, dying COVID patients

“And now all you really see is their fear and their regret. And even though I may walk into the room thinking, ‘Okay, this is your fault, you did this to yourself,’ when I leave the room, I just see a person that's really suffering, and that is so regretful for the choice that they made.”

www.al.com

Dr. Brytney Cobia said Monday that all but one of her COVID patients in Alabama did not receive the vaccine. The vaccinated patient, she said, just needed a little oxygen and is expected to fully recover. Some of the others are dying.

“I’m admitting young healthy people to the hospital with very serious COVID infections,” wrote Cobia, a hospitalist at Grandview Medical Center in Birmingham, in an emotional Facebook post Sunday. “One of the last things they do before they’re intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I’m sorry, but it’s too late.”

Three COVID-19 vaccines have been widely available in Alabama for months now, yet the state is last in the nation in vaccination rate, with only 33.7 percent of the population fully vaccinated. COVID-19 case numbers and hospitalizations are surging yet again due to the more contagious Delta variant of the virus and Alabama’s low vaccination rate.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

No it's not. Go back to my original post.

This is inaccurate. Look again at what I quoted from the recent CDC guideline update. The one you were basing your opinion off of with that bolded quote you gave me from the CDC director.

Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)

CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.

www.cdc.gov

Jesus, man. I don't know what you want. Of course I agree in general, that traditionally vaccines are meant to block (and do) infection and help slow down and eliminate the spread of the virus. What I have been talking about this whole time is these vaccines in regards to our current situation.

I'm not basing my opinion solely off what the CDC director said. Like I've posted multiple times in this thread and the other, the data is showing that there are higher than expected infection rates amongst the unvaccinated. We have clear and clean data from the UK and Israel that indicates this. Israel uses the same Pfizer schedule as the US, so we should expect a similar level of success.

The bottom line is that we really do not know how successful the various vaccines are at blocking infection and transmission, but with the Delta at least, the degree of success is clearly much lower than the initial claims made.

 

[DeepBreath87]

This "good thing" scenario only occurs with the help of vaccinations, therefore getting as many vaccines to as many people as possible is a good thing. The majority of hospitalizations and deaths are occurring amongst the unvaccinated.

‘I’m sorry, but it’s too late’: Alabama doctor on treating unvaccinated, dying COVID patients

“And now all you really see is their fear and their regret. And even though I may walk into the room thinking, ‘Okay, this is your fault, you did this to yourself,’ when I leave the room, I just see a person that's really suffering, and that is so regretful for the choice that they made.”

www.al.com

First of all, that doctor’s story is complete bullshit. In the entire state of Alabama, there about 4 people dying a day. In the state with 5 million people. How many of them not only were young, healthy people, but also came to her hospital, got taken care of by her just prior to intubation, and then died a few days later? And this apparently happened more than once since the vaccine was available to everyone in April. I’m sorry if I’m not a bit suspicious this is some asshole grifting for social media attention.

Second, of course the vaccines have allowed us to transition to the phase where we don’t have to treat covid like a society ending crisis. The vaccines are good. But we have transitioned to that phase now and should act accordingly instead of pissing our pants because the case number is up.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

This "good thing" scenario only occurs with the help of vaccinations, therefore getting as many vaccines to as many people as possible is a good thing.

How much so, though?

Look at India. Their Delta wave has dropped to around 40,000 average cases per day and 500 average deaths per day despite very low vaccination rates, but you must keep in mind their 1.4 billion person population, which is 20.4x the size of the UK's and 4.2x that of the United States's population. If you were to adjust their numbers to the US's population it would be equivalent to around 120 average deaths per day and 9,500 cases per day. Or adjusted to the UK's population it would be 25 deaths per day and around 2,000 cases.

Then in England, you see that the CFR for Delta is much lower not just among the vaccinated, but also among the unvaccinated.

Based on that, I really do not expect to see the deaths and hospitalizations due to Delta to rise to any point of catastrophe in the United States, either. I can only hope I'm right.

 

[Rentahamster]

First of all, that doctor’s story is complete bullshit. In the entire state of Alabama, there about 4 people dying a day. In the state with 5 million people. How many of them not only were young, healthy people, but also came to her hospital, got taken care of by her just prior to intubation, and then died a few days later? And this apparently happened more than once since the vaccine was available to everyone in April. I’m sorry if I’m not a bit suspicious this is some asshole grifting for social media attention.

If you're right in the middle of battle, you see a lot more casualties than people observing from the sidelines. It hits different. Are you this skeptical about people questioning the vaccine who might be gifting for social media attention? This person is a primary source.

From her FB:

Great question!!! So the numbers right now are definitely nowhere NEAR the big surge in Dec 2020/Jan 2021. Right now it feels a lot like maybe September of 2020 (all the months run together so it's hard to really remember!) We were very slowly starting to see the numbers climb. The change from day to day was almost imperceptible but from week to week we started to notice a difference. Every week I came to work I'd have just 1 or 2 more COVID patients than were on my list the week before. It very much feels like the calm before the storm right now. I don't think I'd worry nearly as much if we had a higher vaccination rate here in Alabama. We know there are going to be cases of breakthrough infection even in vaccinated patients, but without herd immunity these numbers are going to be a lot higher because there's so much more virus circulating. That's where the kiddos come in in my opinion (I have a 2.5yo and a 9mo!) The problem is that daycare and school aged kids are virus vectors because they're in closed quarters with SO many other people on a daily basis. Especially with the delta variant which spreads insanely fast. And with the school year coming up and essentially none of our local schools requiring masks, this is a recipe for the delta variant to spread rapidly throughout schools. This probably won't be as big of a deal for the kiddos because they're handling it very well (the delta variant is a little harder on them but still relatively mild). The problem is that the more virus that circulates in their population, the more virus that circulates in the adult population, and thus the more unvaccinated and breakthrough infections we will have. A big way that vaccinating kids right now helps us all is to of course prevent complications in the kids but also to get us close to herd immunity. I'm not a pediatrician and don't take care of kids so I can't speak to this with true authority, but this is my medical opinion surrounding vaccinating the pediatric age group for which the vaccine has been approved at this time! As always, my best advice is to take your kids to their pediatrician that knows them best and ask their advice!!

Second, of course the vaccines have allowed us to transition to the phase where we don’t have to treat covid like a society ending crisis. The vaccines are good. But we have transitioned to that phase now and should act accordingly instead of pissing our pants because the case number is up.

We haven't completely transitioned. We're only partway there. As long as we are unable to achieve herd immunity in all or most of our communities, the virus will be a lingering threat as it can potentially mutate into a deadlier version within those communities. We can simply eradicate the virus with a higher global vaccination rate, but due to logistics, or vaccine hesitancy, that is not as easy as it seems.

 

[Loki]

Fainting within 15 minutes after getting the shot is a side effect, not randomly fainting days or weeks later. Dude needs to get to a doctor.

Perfect example of how numerous vaccine side effects and issues are being ignored/covered up. So if I - a person who has literally never fainted in his life and who has no high blood pressure or circulatory issues - got the vaccine and then had several fainting episodes in the ensuing days/weeks for no reason (i.e. nothing about my diet, stress level, or environment had changed), you’re saying that it is not fair to say that it is a side effect of the vaccine? Fuck outta here with that. I’m not saying that’s the case with this person, but assuming it was, you can’t just ASSERT “oh, that’s not a side effect because of a lack of temporal proximity to the time of injection.” THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT of why many folks - 45% of the population by last count - continues to take a wait and see approach with respect to these vaccines: because of the possibility of delayed effects.

 

[DeepBreath87]

If you're right in the middle of battle, you see a lot more casualties than people observing from the sidelines. It hits different. Are you this skeptical about people questioning the vaccine who might be gifting for social media attention? This person is a primary source.

From her FB:




We haven't completely transitioned. We're only partway there. As long as we are unable to achieve herd immunity in all or most of our communities, the virus will be a lingering threat as it can potentially mutate into a deadlier version within those communities. We can simply eradicate the virus with a higher global vaccination rate, but due to logistics, or vaccine hesitancy, that is not as easy as it seems.

Worrying about some potential future variant is not significantly different from worrying about some potential future vaccine side effect.

Also, of course I think the anti vaccine grifters are what they are. I don’t give them the time of day. It’s a complete waste of effort. The doctor in that story is saying something I find extremely implausible on social media. She has provided no verification outside of her word and she knows she won’t have to due to HIPPA, so I chose to throw out her anecdote just like I do the people who say the vaccine made them grow another leg or whatever.

 

[Rentahamster]

Worrying about some potential future variant is not significantly different from worrying about some potential future vaccine side effect.

Yes it is.

We've studied how viruses mutate and know how and why it occurs. We know what actions make conditions more favorable for mutations and we know how to prevent them. There is a lot of evidence to make that concern very real.

Worrying about potential future side effects of a vaccine is far less justified. Over a billion doses have been given worldwide with only a small number of linked complications. It's safer than Tylenol. It's safer than peanut butter. There is no evidence to suggest that there is a likelihood of long term side effects or that they would even be a greater danger than COVID itself.

On the other hand, there is a lot of evidence that viruses mutate the more often they are able to reproduce. That's how all living organisms on Earth work.

 

[YCoCg]

Pfizer really are out here trying to give ammo to anti-vaxxers arn't they? I'm vaccinated but even to me this looks like a complete cash grab, "Oh our vaccine is like the best, but to be ultra safe, we'd say it's best to get a third shot, of our vaccine, just to be safe, and make sure it's ours!".

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Pfizer really are out here trying to give ammo to anti-vaxxers arn't they? I'm vaccinated but even to me this looks like a complete cash grab, "Oh our vaccine is like the best, but to be ultra safe, we'd say it's best to get a third shot, of our vaccine, just to be safe, and make sure it's ours!".

It's just one more little poke, man.

 

[DeepBreath87]

Yes it is.

We've studied how viruses mutate and know how and why it occurs. We know what actions make conditions more favorable for mutations and we know how to prevent them. There is a lot of evidence to make that concern very real.

Worrying about potential future side effects of a vaccine is far less justified. Over a billion doses have been given worldwide with only a small number of linked complications. It's safer than Tylenol. It's safer than peanut butter. There is no evidence to suggest that there is a likelihood of long term side effects or that they would even be a greater danger than COVID itself.

On the other hand, there is a lot of evidence that viruses mutate the more often they are able to reproduce. That's how all living organisms on Earth work.

We don’t know how to prevent or control virus mutation at a population level in any meaningful way. Making decisions or policy based on the idea that someday; somewhere a variant of this virus is going to spring up that will ignore the vaccines is insane. There is no limit to that kind of idea. The virus will be here forever. So any measures you think are necessary to prevent the imaginary variants will always be necessary.

The virus is spreading all over the world. Any effort we put into thinking we can effect the mutations of this virus are futile. The amount of hubris human beings seem to have these days boggles the mind.

Hell we have more control over the imaginary vaccine side effects because in theory you could just not take the vaccine or they could change the formulation.

 

[QSD]

We haven't completely transitioned. We're only partway there. As long as we are unable to achieve herd immunity in all or most of our communities, the virus will be a lingering threat as it can potentially mutate into a deadlier version within those communities. We can simply eradicate the virus with a higher global vaccination rate, but due to logistics, or vaccine hesitancy, that is not as easy as it seems.

The problem (that I've also pointed out in the other COVID thread) is that the particular brand of vaccine hesitancy we are facing now didn't just pop out of a hole in the ground at the start of this pandemic, there is a long (say perhaps 20-30 yrs) history of dwindling trust in pharmaceutical companies as a result of what can only be described as extremely dubious behaviour where profit is placed before the wellbeing of patients. The opioid crisis is one example but there are many more... Bad Pharma

Why this is suddenly no longer relevant when people have to decide whether to accept a vaccine from the very same parties that have caused so much harm in the past is something that has yet to be explained to me.

Either way, the problem is not one of good or bad data IMHO, or of (mis)information, it's a problem of trust. It's impossible to rekindle trust in pharma by posting data, because the assumption will be that the data is tampered with. Either way it seems wrong to blame anti-vaxxers for the paranoia around pharma, they mostly just squandered their own reputation well before this pandemic started.

 

[poppabk]

Perfect example of how numerous vaccine side effects and issues are being ignored/covered up. So if I - a person who has literally never fainted in his life and who has no high blood pressure or circulatory issues - got the vaccine and then had several fainting episodes in the ensuing days/weeks for no reason (i.e. nothing about my diet, stress level, or environment had changed), you’re saying that it is not fair to say that it is a side effect of the vaccine? Fuck outta here with that. I’m not saying that’s the case with this person, but assuming it was, you can’t just ASSERT “oh, that’s not a side effect because of a lack of temporal proximity to the time of injection.” THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT of why many folks - 45% of the population by last count - continues to take a wait and see approach with respect to these vaccines: because of the possibility of delayed effects.

I am saying that of the millions of people who have been vaccinated, few to zero people have experienced this side effect and so they need to get seen by a doctor no matter what. Just assuming it is a side effect and ignoring it is not an option.
My wife had a side effect from a drug that had been on the market for decades and didn't have it listed as a known side effect. It happens, sometimes just one random person has some unique collection of genes, disorders, antibodies etc that cause them to have a unique reaction.
Plus you have to understand that things do happen that are not correlated, if you vaccinate 150 million people - roughly 30000 will be diagnosed with cancer within the next two weeks.
Quick search of VAERS gives us side effects for COVID 19 vaccines like:
6 people - fear of falling
3 people - faecal vomiting (literally spewing shit)
500 people - flatulence
2 people - female orgasmic disorder
7 people - erection increased
Basically if you take a massive chunk of the population and then give them a specific 2-3 week timeframe all kinds of weird shit is gonna happen to select individuals in that timeframe no matter what.

 

[Rentahamster]

We don’t know how to prevent or control vaccine mutation at a population level in any meaningful way.

What is "vaccine mutation"?

Making decisions or policy based on the idea that someday; somewhere a variant of this virus is going to spring up that will ignore the vaccines is insane.

Making policy based on established scientific research is the opposite of insane.

The virus will be here forever.

Because not enough people are getting vaccinated so that the virus can't spread.

So any measures you think are necessary to prevent the imaginary variants will always be necessary.

Because not enough people are getting vaccinated so that the virus can't spread.

The virus is spreading all over the world.

Because not enough people are getting vaccinated so that the virus can't spread.

Any effort we put into thinking we can effect the mutations of this virus are futile.

Not futile. We know how viruses replicate and how to interrupt it.

The amount of hubris human beings seem to have these days boggles the mind.

Almost like the hubris it takes to be so confident to know better than a doctor.


Again,

Concern about the future spread of COVID and the advent of new variants - very real and already an issue due to the existence of very real variants.

Concern about long term side effects from vaccines - no evidence to suggest they are theoretically dangerous in the long term, and lots of evidence that suggest they are very safe in the short term and very beneficial.

 

[Kraz]

Worrying about potential future side effects of a vaccine is far less justified. Over a billion doses have been given worldwide with only a small number of linked complications. It's safer than Tylenol. It's safer than peanut butter. There is no evidence to suggest that there is a likelihood of long term side effects or that they would even be a greater danger than COVID itself.

It's as justified as worrying about speculative long term side effects of catching COVID(over the short term).

The side effects of taking the vaccine aren't communicable or threatening other health services. Which, regarding something I read earlier in the thread, might be contributing to a lack of outrage over reports of the small number of side effects.

 

[DeepBreath87]

What is "vaccine mutation"?


Making policy based on established scientific research is the opposite of insane.


Because not enough people are getting vaccinated so that the virus can't spread.



Because not enough people are getting vaccinated so that the virus can't spread.


Because not enough people are getting vaccinated so that the virus can't spread.


Not futile. We know how viruses replicate and how to interrupt it.


Almost like the hubris it takes to be so confident to know better than a doctor.


Again,

Concern about the future spread of COVID and the advent of new variants - very real and already an issue due to the existence of very real variants.

Concern about long term side effects from vaccines - no evidence to suggest they are theoretically dangerous in the long term, and lots of evidence that suggest they are very safe in the short term and very beneficial.

That was a typo. The autocorrect on my phone choose vaccine instead of virus. It’s fixed now.

As for you repeating yourself about the number of people being vaccinated, it will always be that way. You think we’re going to vaccinated all of Africa and Asia, where the majority of people are, with boosters forever to the point where the virus is eliminated? Again, hubris. You’re living in fantasy land. Especially when the virus is clearly able to spread amongst the vaccinated based on what we are seeing in Israel.

Again, it’s no different than concerning yourself with future imagined side effects. It’s not like we didn’t find out later that myocarditis was some minuscule risk from the vaccine later down the line. So even your point is lost. The two things are very comparable.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

The problem (that I've also pointed out in the other COVID thread) is that the particular brand of vaccine hesitancy we are facing now didn't just pop out of a hole in the ground at the start of this pandemic, there is a long (say perhaps 20-30 yrs) history of dwindling trust in pharmaceutical companies as a result of what can only be described as extremely dubious behaviour where profit is placed before the wellbeing of patients. The opioid crisis is one example but there are many more... Bad Pharma

Why this is suddenly no longer relevant when people have to decide whether to accept a vaccine from the very same parties that have caused so much harm in the past is something that has yet to be explained to me.

Either way, the problem is not one of good or bad data IMHO, or of (mis)information, it's a problem of trust. It's impossible to rekindle trust in pharma by posting data, because the assumption will be that the data is tampered with. Either way it seems wrong to blame anti-vaxxers for the paranoia around pharma, they mostly just squandered their own reputation well before this pandemic started.

It really is quite something. I understand that people want this shit to be over and that they view universal vaccination as the simplest way out, but the sudden overnight shift in desire to trust our government, our incompetent and corrupt politicians, and the robber barons in big pharma with our health when they stand to make hundreds of billions of dollars off this stuff is kind of baffling to me.