UnemployedVillain
Member
Are some people really talking about capping doctor's salaries? Maybe for federal or public servant jobs, but the idea of capping salaries of a private industry job is LUDICROUS
Physician salaries in America - are they too high?
- Thread starter Pineapple
- Start date
- Status
That's the passion required to become the best of the best in the medical field. In my years, I've met a lot of different students/doctors and passion is a major X factor.
Tarkus
Member
Too bad most graduate PAs don't go into primary care :-/
The path to becoming a PA is 6 years minimum.
TheRockclap.gif
Getting into a reputable PA school is hard.
Probably harder than many medical schools. Emory's PA school acceptance rate is 4.3%.
That right there is what driving your upward costs. Physician salaries are not the problem. Besides, unlike these sons of bitches, the physicians earn their pay, every day.
What needs to come down in healthcare costs is administrative costs. There is too much overhead.
Let me add to this in order to make this correct. Its actually four years of schooling to receive a BSN, which is necessary in order to attend graduate school. The actual nursing school portion of it is two and a half years. While the MSN option exists, the profession is quickly moving towards the DNP being the standard for NP practice. It would be 7 years total to become a NP (And not run into the issue of being "under-educated" for future job placement). Also, most NPs have practiced as RNs for several years before returning to school. Your more competitive programs for NP require two years of acute care experience before applying/competing.
Also, in most states the NP can practice independently and open his/her own primary-care clinic/practice. There is no direct MD oversight.
While I am a very strong advocate of mid-level practitioners, we have to give credit where credit is given. My nursing education was difficult to obtain and competitive as I'm sure your PA was as well. But neither of our paths have the same level of resistance as becoming an MD (and specializing). It's not even close. As a nurse, I stand by my physicians when I say I know that their path is difficult and I am relying on them to provide direction in the clinical setting.
Mammoth Jones
Member
Who are we to decide a doc make too much? Cause we don't make that much lol. Doctors salaries aren't why healthcare costs are so high.
Your Entertainer
Member
How does that schools GPA requirement compare to the MD average? What are the required courses? Do they require a test near the difficulty of the MCAT?
hurricanes
Member
Are you kidding me? physicians spend years studying difficult subjects that most people wouldn't touch even if they are paid to do so. And many of them have massive debt upon graduation and constantly work 15-18 hours a day.
"But.. But they make too much" No, they don't. They deserve every cent of that $300k.
"But.. But they make too much" No, they don't. They deserve every cent of that $300k.
Tarkus
Member
http://med.emory.edu/pa/admissions/requirements.html
Required GPA is 3.0, however, the average GPA of the most recent class was 3.5. Emory med average is 3.7 GPA and 34 MCAT.
The test is the general GRE. It's nowhere near as tough as the MCAT.
Forget MCAT, the United States Medical Licensing Examination (USMLE) is a whole other beast. Then there is the pressure of if students get their desired residency. It's commonly called Match Day at med school is basically what decides their career.
I'm aware... I graduated 2.5 years ago.
If you look up the acceptance standards of the average PA program and the average medical school, it's still light years away. The gap is certainly closing, though.
Your Entertainer
Member
IIRC, 3.5 would place you solidly well below average for a US MD matriculant; the MCAT is tough, just got tougher, and the matriculant average of 31.x (again, iirc) is not easy to achieve.
And as the other poster mentioned, med school is difficult, as are the standardized tests afterwards.
Haha, I know dude. Although I will say that Step 1 required a burst of smart, focused studying in a shorter period than did the MCAT with its Org chem (ugh), physics and gen chem.
There is a lot of other costs that should be prioritized before needing to artificially force down medical professional salaries:
Administrative, pharmaceutical, insurance, advertising, medical billing mark-ups, delivery of care changes, bloated upper level administrative salaries, higher education costs, Lemon socialism drug research.
I'm sure I'm leaving a few out but there is so much money in the system that is used just to prop up bullshit so certain facets that bring nothing(or at least a lot less relative to their profit) to the table can dip their hand in the cookie jar and take more and more out. So to me slashing the actual providers of cares salaries as a substitute comes off as gross.
Administrative, pharmaceutical, insurance, advertising, medical billing mark-ups, delivery of care changes, bloated upper level administrative salaries, higher education costs, Lemon socialism drug research.
I'm sure I'm leaving a few out but there is so much money in the system that is used just to prop up bullshit so certain facets that bring nothing(or at least a lot less relative to their profit) to the table can dip their hand in the cookie jar and take more and more out. So to me slashing the actual providers of cares salaries as a substitute comes off as gross.
The Albatross
Member
Because the concept of intellectual diversity should not be applied to occupations like physicians, surgeons, and rocket scientists.
HammerOfThor
Member
They quite literally save lives, and people's lives are literally in their hands.
Not sure I'd bitch about their pay
Not sure I'd bitch about their pay
AaronB
Member
The US' bastardized sorta-private-sorta-public health care system both artificially inflates physicians' salaries and makes their lives more difficult in many ways. The supply of doctors is too low because of a government-granted monopoly in controlling entrance to medical schools and certifying doctors. There are also laws and regulations forcing various medical things to be performed by doctors that could have been done by nurses, and things like that,
If we had a free market in health care, we could see how that would line up with our current system. I would guess that there would be more doctors, and they would earn less money on average, but their lives would be better in other ways (less time dealing with bureaucracy instead of patients; less miserable internships; more choices in how they work; and so on). If you're not talking about a free market-determined salary than the question of "who earns too much money" is just speculation by people who don't have very much of the information needed to make a determination. We mock medieval economists for their navel-gazing about the concept of a "just price", and a wage is simply the price for labor.
If we had a free market in health care, we could see how that would line up with our current system. I would guess that there would be more doctors, and they would earn less money on average, but their lives would be better in other ways (less time dealing with bureaucracy instead of patients; less miserable internships; more choices in how they work; and so on). If you're not talking about a free market-determined salary than the question of "who earns too much money" is just speculation by people who don't have very much of the information needed to make a determination. We mock medieval economists for their navel-gazing about the concept of a "just price", and a wage is simply the price for labor.
I think science in general should be better paid. Less focus on finance and services, more on science and engineering.
MickeyKnox
Member
There's a conversation that can be had around the idea of lowering the salary of physicians in America, but the other parts of that conversation would have to include figuring out how to lower the cost of medical education, getting insurance companies to actually pay the bills they receive, not to mention dealing with the insane costs of malpractice insurance.
I am in full agreement.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
Be careful when comparing compensation and pay to other countries as well. In the US the average school debt physicians have when they finish medical school is 300k. Which is pretty nuts.
metalslimer
Member
Hell no if you are talking about those kind of cuts. I would be willing to pay higher taxes to pay for better social programs but no way am I going to put that much debt on myself to take a huge cut unless they forgive my loans
Lil'DigiOp
Member
Man.. I know a couple people who had their life saved but took a major gulp when they got that medical bill.
Well, good thing they still had their ability to gulp. Better to get bills than live 6 feet under.
I'm graduating medical school in two months, and I'm pleased that the majority of this thread is in agreement that physician salaries should not be cut.
At this point, we need to provide greater incentivization for med students to go into primary care in general, not further cut down on that.
At this point, we need to provide greater incentivization for med students to go into primary care in general, not further cut down on that.
And this is a good post. NP's and PA's have their place in the healthcare system no doubt, but it comes with limitations that should not impinge on doctors when it comes to salary and autonomy.
The people that matter, CEOs, are the ones getting the monies./s
Seriously. Every time there is talk about cuts is always cuts from the bottom up. Fuck!
I largely agree with this point, and it's actually a little ridiculous that right out of school PA's are hired into the workforce (I went straight into private practice) and are expected have as much knowledge or technical ability as someone with an extra 3-7 years of training. But yet, I basically ran a practice by myself and am still doing so now... This pertains to procedures are well as basic diagnosis and treatment.
Which is why, ultimately, I see the fields becoming more and more autonomous as time goes on. NPs can already practice independently in most states.
paradise_circus
Member
Many exaggerate the work a doctor is doing here. Besides, the reputation medical doctors get is so extreme high compared to other academics.
If you include college. PA school in the USA is anywhere from 24-26 months depending on the school.
Currently studying 70-80 hours a week for the upcoming Step 1 licensing exam, which I have to pass before I can set foot in a hospital and learn how to take care of patients. I've been doing this since February. My test is in June.
I've been studying 60+ hours a week for the last two years just to get to this point.
So yeah, if you say so.
Any particular reason you feel this way? In what way is their work or reputation exaggerated?
massivekettle
Member
How is CEO pay obscene? There are even less people capable of being CEOs than doctors...
The CEO position is criminally misunderstood on this forum.
BearFlexington
Member
Considering they make less than an NFL kicker I'd so no. They should be paid more.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
I average 70-80* hours a week. How many hours a week do you average? Oh, and people lives are in my hands. If I fuck up, people can die.
* sometimes a bit more but the rules say we can't pass 80 hours so they aren't documented as such.
God Dayumm
Banned
But you are a physicist, not a physician "/
Uhm, you are crazy. CEOs making 1000 to 1 ratios to their lowest paid employees, golden parachutes that guarantee they make money even when they tank companies over and over. Very, very few CEOs actually seem to improve their businesses. Most just seem to make short term decisions that hurt the companies long term then move onto the next company enjoying their parachute. To be a CEO you just need to be a greedy sociopath that doesn't care how many underling's lives you destroyed to keep making the business short term profits. That is not a doctor level of training and skills. The occasional brilliant CEO does exist, ie... Steve Jobs, most are just over paid middle managers with no empathy who know how to spin the narrative in their favor and are born with the right connections.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
I'm not a Doctor but if I was I would never ever work in the US. The expectation and the fear that its just a matter of time before someone sues me for millions. No wonder the salary is so high. It drive me nuts to listen to the expectations people have on Doctors even up here in Canada, I can't imagine what it's like in the US. ER's in bad areas must be like a fucking war zone. All the normal stuff would be enough for me, car accidents, fires, domestic violence, drugs and alcohol, then in the US you add guns, no fucking thanks. Then the flip side you can be a surgeon to the rich and famous nip and tucking spoiled fat asses.
That's underselling CEOs, even though they likely are overpaid compared to the average employee. The skills needed to get to the level are high and outside of a few geniuses they come from years of hard work in their field and a good education, combined with good relationships/luck. The workers are underpaid though and I'd rather see a CEO get a paycut if it meant the other employees could see a raise. Making a company stay on the same level of success is as important as making it grow and can be just as tricky.
As far as doctors being overpaid? Nah, especially the young ones working crazy hours. Maybe in some fields but, most are fairly compensated for what they do.
velociraptor
Junior Member
I never understood why people shit on the salaries of doctors. I think many doctors are actually underpaid for the work they do - net pay is lower than reported salaries when you factor in insurance and malpractice fees. There are few professions that have the same level of academic rigour and training as medicine. And hey, you're saving lives at the end of the day. What could be more important than that?
Furthermore, junior doctors work horrendous hours and their pay is actually lower than minimum wage.
Furthermore, junior doctors work horrendous hours and their pay is actually lower than minimum wage.
Yeah.. no. Maybe the actual physical work of a doctor doesn't compare to that of a Physician's Assistant, a nurse practitioner, or a technician, but the burden of responsibility, leadership of everyone who is working under them and knowledge all lies on them. That doesn't even factor in all the roadblocks and hoops to jump through to become a fully licensed doctor.
Residents are paid out of Medicare's budget that was set back in 1997 and has not kept up with inflation or the increasing number of residency positions. A first year resident essentially works about 60-70 hours a week at $14-16/hour (48k a year).
If you want to improve health care in this country, people need to stop suing physicians, because the amount of defensive medicine we practice now starts at the level of a 3rd and 4th year medical student's education.
Jealousy
Darryl M R
Member
Not too high. I was pre-med in college and I kept on thinking "if I push through it will all be worth it, I can support my family with a great salary and provide a service for those in need."
Took me until sophomore year to realize being a physician is crappy. The lifestyle/work hours suck, the emotional attachment sucks (I hear it drains you to see someone you connected with no make it), the lawsuits suck, the investment cost of going to school then residency and then specializing sucks.
Yea no.It's terrible. Pay them well.
Took me until sophomore year to realize being a physician is crappy. The lifestyle/work hours suck, the emotional attachment sucks (I hear it drains you to see someone you connected with no make it), the lawsuits suck, the investment cost of going to school then residency and then specializing sucks.
Yea no.It's terrible. Pay them well.
I like this post.
HerrPalomar
Neo Member
Doctors deserve the pay that they get.
But I find it always fascinating how poorly the people are payed who actually advance medicine and not just practice it.
I am currently working in a lab at a big pharmaceutical company here in Germany and the pay people with PhD (3Year Bachelor + 2 Year Master + 4-5 Years for the Phd + some years of post doc = 10 Years on average) in Chemistry, Biomedicine and so on is ridiculously low compared to physicians.
And don't get me started on the wages and job security of scientists at the Universities.
I wish the scientists who actually advance medicine would get even one third of the respect or wages that physicians get.
But I find it always fascinating how poorly the people are payed who actually advance medicine and not just practice it.
I am currently working in a lab at a big pharmaceutical company here in Germany and the pay people with PhD (3Year Bachelor + 2 Year Master + 4-5 Years for the Phd + some years of post doc = 10 Years on average) in Chemistry, Biomedicine and so on is ridiculously low compared to physicians.
And don't get me started on the wages and job security of scientists at the Universities.
I wish the scientists who actually advance medicine would get even one third of the respect or wages that physicians get.
- Status