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[Men_in_Boxes]

Rock Paper Shotgun tries to paint Ybarra as the bad guy here, but he's absolutely right. He's right and the companies that serve gamers wishes the best, will be rewarded the most.

However, Rock Paper Shotgun has a fairly moronic solution to this dilemma...

"Ybarra's answer, as may be deduced from Blizzard's current operations: set up vast teams increasingly fuelled by the power of in-game monetisation, with a lot of effort dedicated to ensuring that buying things in a Blizzard game feels enjoyable."

The bedrock of successful Live Service is having playtime feel enjoyable, not buying things. Don't put the cart before the horse.

The actual, long term solution is fairly obvious...create sandbox worlds where players are fed new experiences every day + every hour through the games mechanics.

Fortnite, Roblox, and Minecraft rose to become the leading games in this industry because players can expect to see something new every time they play.

Diablo IV and World of Warcraft rely heavily on Blizzard laying down new track for players to burn through quickly. This strategy is expensive and slow.

THAT is the key to serving players the most. Stop relying on your teams to provide new experiences and empower players to do it instead.

"Players have no patience", says Blizzard president - "they want new stuff every day, every hour"

People who play videogames want "new content literally almost every single day", according to Blizzard president Mike Y…

www.rockpapershotgun.com

 

[Punished Miku]

They have no one to blame but themselves. They create a hamster treadmill on purpose, hire psychologists to addict people, and then complain that their customers are addicts.

If they decide to make timeless gameplay that is fun and enjoyable, and a narrative that comes to a satisfying conclusion and gives the player meaningful in game rewards and story closure, then they don't want things every day.

They correctly point this out in the article.

It's interesting/harrowing to think about how live service games both react to and actively cultivate player behaviour. Ybarra doesn't discuss the role publishers and developers have played in teaching players to expect and demand New Stuff every day, via such habit-forming mechanisms as sign-in XP and events with exclusive rewards on top of compulsive design loops and feedback such as the jingly noises you get when you open a lootbox. A lot of this kind of thinking comes from the world of mobile gaming, which Ybarra described elsewhere in the chat as "a hyper growth area for us".

 

[Flutta]

And who’s fault is that Ybarra?

 

[StueyDuck]

The subscription future.

Also it's only kids that want dances and Yung weezy or whichever dumb rapper in their games. Most adults have very little time and just want quality games.

Luckily the talos principle 2 exists

 

[Faust]

When you create a skinner box that rewards quick, constant rewards and remove the long form work factor that was present in the early MMO space, especially early WoW - you have no one to blame but yourself.

 

[AJUMP23]

Live and die by the endorphins.

 

[adamsapple]

He's out of line but he's right.

 

[Little Chicken]

He's right.

 

[FalsettoVibe]

 

[justiceiro]

Yeah, the same people complaining about games launching before being finished are the same ones crying they "have nothing to play" when a game gets delayed.

 

[FoxMcChief]

That’s why I love the subscriptions. Always something to play.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

executive clowns are abundant in that company.

 

[SportsFan581]

"Certain" players, playing specific genres. Don't paint so broadly there Ybarra.

 

[Wildebeest]

If players actually "wanted" to play the same stale boring game every day for two hours, they wouldn't need to be coaxed into logging in with a drip feed of rewards or "new content". It is purely the people in charge of monetisation who expect that extreme level of sustained engagement from players.

 

[Skifi28]

Good job creating the problem yourself.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

They have no one to blame but themselves. They create a hamster treadmill on purpose, hire psychologists to addict people, and then complain that their customers are addicts.

If they decide to make timeless gameplay that is fun and enjoyable, and a narrative that comes to a satisfying conclusion and gives the player meaningful in game rewards and story closure, then they don't want things every day.

They correctly point this out in the article.

Ewww, gross.

Games have " taught players what to expect".

Translation: They only like Live Service because they've been brainwashed.

Complete poppycock.

 

[Three]

However, Rock Paper Shotgun has a fairly moronic solution to this dilemma...

"Ybarra's answer, as may be deduced from Blizzard's current operations: set up vast teams increasingly fuelled by the power of in-game monetisation, with a lot of effort dedicated to ensuring that buying things in a Blizzard game feels enjoyable."

This isn't RPS' solution, this is what they say Ybarra's answer is.

 

[diffusionx]

The problem is these games are not fun, they’re not good, I didn’t need a battle pass to play TFC or Quake 3 for dozens or hundreds of hours. Nobody was grinding seasons in Goldeneye N64 with their friends. These games suck. So what the devs do is take their shitty games and shitty content and marry it to a psychologically addictive progression system. Problem is as soon as the player maxes out the progression they realize there’s no reason to be playing this shitty game, just as there is no reason to smoke cigarettes except that you are addicted to it. So the devs Need to churn out this content nonstop to keep the players hooked.

Even the devs are realizing the monster they created cannot be sustained. Also telling that Fortnite went back to the original map and was super popular. Why? Because the original Fortnite was probably actually fun, whereas nu-Fortnite is what I stated above.

 

[Punished Miku]

Ewww, gross.

Games have " taught players what to expect".

Translation: They only like Live Service because they've been brainwashed.

Complete poppycock.

Not only. They have to be interested in the game enough to start it. But keeping people on that hamster wheel for years is definitely partially psychological manipulation. The companies themselves will tell you this. Just look at their job postings.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

This isn't RPS' solution, this is what they say Ybarra's answer is.

Blizzards crown jewel right now is Project Odyssey, their survival game. A genre perfectly suited to provide players with new experiences based on player behavior, not laying down new content in slow and expensive fashion.

RPS has no idea what they're talking about.

 

[ahtlas7]

No I don’t. I want quality over quantity, fool.

 

[Alexios]

That's moronic on all 3 sides, as if every game has to be the same or if every game is they'll all be Fortnite level success stories. We just got a story heavy turn based D&D CRPG as a huge success story on all platforms, consoles too, lol. You can't generalize Fortnite or WoW, only speak just for them...

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Not only. They have to be interested in the game enough to start it. But keeping people on that hamster wheel for years is definitely partially psychological manipulation. The companies themselves will tell you this. Just look at their job postings.

That's how everything works though.

Successful marriages are a result of long term relationship engagement where both parties feel like they're benefiting for an extended duration.

We watch The Godfather every few years because Coppola created a film with meat on the bone.

Chess is played your entire life because there's so much sustenance baked into its design.

The best game design (Fortnite, Roblox, Minecraft) are being flocked to because every time you boot them up, you get wonderful new experiences. People naturally gravitate towards nutritionally dense experiences.

 

[6502]

They could just release a quality fun product with replay value. Then two or three years later release a sequel.

You can't expect continuous payment and cry that people expect continuous support.

 

[Krappadizzle]

They kind of set the standard. They dug their own graves and all that. Players go through stuff like locusts. Data-mining too kinda kills most of the joy of releases. There's just not anything of substantial investment other than to amass more shit for whatever class you are playing. Game has some really cool aspect to it to this very day, but it is in massive need of a rework overhaul more than what they did with Dragonflight.

 

[Punished Miku]

That's how everything works though.

Successful marriages are a result of long term relationship engagement where both parties feel like they're benefiting for an extended duration.

We watch The Godfather every few years because Coppola created a film with meat on the bone.

Chess is played your entire life because there's so much sustenance baked into its design.

The best game design (Fortnite, Roblox, Minecraft) are being flocked to because every time you boot them up, you get wonderful new experiences. People naturally gravitate towards nutritionally dense experiences.

You're just plugging your ears and denying then?

I never said it was all brainwashing. They have to make a fun and appealing game. But there are tactics that have nothing to do with that, like log-in bonuses, timed seasons, buying currency with amounts left over you can't spend at once, etc. that have nothing to do with it being a naturally good game. They are explicitly designed to psychologically influence you and convince you to keep returning. This extends to things like the color schemes of weapons and item drops being similar to a casino.

If you want to defend GAAS like you do, you're going to have to contend with these points honestly or no one will take you seriously. Minecraft is a good example of an evergreen title that isn't really like that, since it relies on endless open user content. Blizzard doesn't make any games like that.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Thanks for reminding me why I don’t play Blizzard games anymore.

“Gamers want something new every day” is a mentality you create by making games with bare bones content that you drip feed to players over time as part of the service, whether that content be free or paid. Lots of GaaS go this route, others don’t.

You don’t need to make a game that way to have a successful GaaS title.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

That's society in general today imo

And no I don't want new stuff everyday

 

[Arsic]

It’s also why only one game of these attempts removes the FOMO which is Halo Infinite.

Every other modern game is subject to teams creating content that is then whisked away.

Destiny is a major example of how this is so stupid. Imagine creating cut scenes, levels, music, weapons , etc and then within a few months it’s deleted from ever existing to be touched. It’s one thing when a skin in a game is never buyable again, but to work hard as a developer on actual content that most of the player base won’t get to interact with in the games lifetime is… retarded.

These companies flush time and money down the toilet with fomo game design, and with most successful games doing this , you can’t expect people to invest in more than one game as their “main game.” Otherwise you miss out, and that psychological effect is real.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

You're just plugging your ears and denying then?

I never said it was all brainwashing. They have to make a fun and appealing game. But there are tactics that have nothing to do with that, like log-in bonuses, timed seasons, buying currency with amounts left over you can't spend at once, etc. that have nothing to do with it being a naturally good game. They are explicitly designed to psychologically influence you and convince you to keep returning. This extends to things like the color schemes of weapons and item drops being similar to a casino.

If you want to defend GAAS like you do, you're going to have to contend with these points honestly or no one will take you seriously. Minecraft is a good example of an evergreen title that isn't really like that, since it relies on endless open user content. Blizzard doesn't make any games like that.

The counter to this point is an easy one.

All games participate in these "psychological tricks". The idea that a big corporation spending 200 million on a AAA game wouldn't also participate in shady practices is preposterous, you must admit.

Shady practices + good game design = successful game.

Always has been. Always will be.

 

[Punished Miku]

The counter to this point is an easy one.

All games participate in these "psychological tricks". The idea that a big corporation spending 200 million on a AAA game wouldn't also participate in shady practices is preposterous, you must admit.

Shady practices + good game design = successful game.

Always has been. Always will be.

To some extent, sure. But that doesn't mean they're all doing it in equal amounts. But yes, lots of companies have shady stuff. No doubt.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

The problem is these games are not fun, they’re not good, I didn’t need a battle pass to play TFC or Quake 3 for dozens or hundreds of hours. Nobody was grinding seasons in Goldeneye N64 with their friends. These games suck. So what the devs do is take their shitty games and shitty content and marry it to a psychologically addictive progression system. Problem is as soon as the player maxes out the progression they realize there’s no reason to be playing this shitty game, just as there is no reason to smoke cigarettes except that you are addicted to it. So the devs Need to churn out this content nonstop to keep the players hooked.

Even the devs are realizing the monster they created cannot be sustained. Also telling that Fortnite went back to the original map and was super popular. Why? Because the original Fortnite was probably actually fun, whereas nu-Fortnite is what I stated above.

This.

To have a slick core gameplay loop that keeps players coming back you need to put guardrails around the core gameplay mechanics and systems that work, as well as the core gameplay content, e.g. levels and weapons/armor. Everything needs to be precisely balanced and that's virtually impossible to achieve when you're constantly trying to churn out new content; either the new content will be shit and not worth pursuing, or overpowered rendering all the legacy content as meaningless.

Bungie has wrestled with this over the past years of Destiny 2. And even now they haven't found a good balance. The constant shifting of the meta, power creep, then nerfing of weapons and surging game difficulty, has created a fundamentally inconsistent gameplay loop that transforms from season to season. Players value games that are easy to pick up, harder to master, but actually can be mastered. Many of these Live Service games change so frequently that mastery is a pipe dream for any player.

 

[Lokaum D+]

wrong, players ll wait years for a good game, look at ToTK, Elden Ring or Armored Core 6, devs just need to make good games and remember, gameplay is KING.

as a player i just want the best for my buck and thats it.

 

[Salmon]

People need to quit social media right now and grow the F up! Let go of the pacifier!

 

[vaibhavpisal]

Blizzards crown jewel right now is Project Odyssey, their survival game. A genre perfectly suited to provide players with new experiences based on player behavior, not laying down new content in slow and expensive fashion.

RPS has no idea what they're talking about.

When is it coming out though.

Hopefully it's fun at launch so I don't have to wait.

My most hyped game rn.

 

[SHA]

"The Netflix of gaming".

 

[Pelta88]

That’s why I love the subscriptions. Always something to play.

Personally, I'm not into fodder.

 

[Elder Legend]

His 100% correct. I love Mike Ybarra, always spitting facts.

 

[LordCBH]

Ybarra comes off as a bit of an idiot.

 

[Holammer]

No, that's not the problem. The problem is that companies want to retain the users engagement for as long as possible. Can't have them toodle off and play another game can we? That equals lost money, so better put in some holding pattern stuff with daily missions, login bonuses & season passes.

The man wants to have the cake and eat it too.

 

[aclar00]

My too long to read post..

You know, Elden Ring overall is an ok game(wasnt amazed by it and technocally horrible), but it was addicting in the old school long haul kind of way. Tons of free secrets to unlock, took a while to defeat enemies, died a lot ..but it felt worth it. Your loot box was finding a random ass treasure that you didnt ileven know what the item was for.

It took me 160 hours just to beat the game because i spent so much time exploring trying to find dugeons and just leveling up and it didnt feel like a chore (Capcom looking at you). Funny thing was that there was so many weapons to choose from (something for everyone) but i literally ended up using 2 swords, 2 shields and 2 wands. Armor was my most varied item. Nonetheless i enjoyed collecting or 'unlocking' everything.

Presumably most publishers dont like gamers like me or maybe even your typical Souls player given that they dont milk you for every dime. However, Elden Ring is the type of game i am much more likely to buy DLC for because i feel like it would bring value to me.

We need more games like From's games with a nicely balanced grind that doesnt milk players and presumably increases patience.

 

[rodrigolfp]

All those riots from people not being able to wait for a new GTA...

 

[MoreJRPG]

Yeah, sorry for expecting a full game on launch instead of an unfinished mess that takes five years to get all the content we used to get on day one.

 

[DenchDeckard]

I'm chillin'

But I'm old

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

When is it coming out though.

Hopefully it's fun at launch so I don't have to wait.

My most hyped game rn.

Hopefully 2025? Arguably my most hyped game too. I'm right there with ya.

 

[havoc00]

People who play videogames want "new content literally almost every single day", according to Blizzard president Mike Ybarra - indeed, "they want new stuff every day, every hour". I do not want new stuff every day, every hour, Mike. Frankly, the idea makes me want to burn my possessions and go spend the rest of my life under a pine tree.

Ybarra's pseudo-apocalyptic observations came during a chat with the Verge about all things Blizzy under new owner Microsoft. Asked about Blizzard's current approach to live service gaming, Ybarra noted that "players have no patience. They want new stuff every day, every hour. We're trying to react that way while holding the Blizzard quality bar high."

"Players have no patience", says Blizzard president - "they want new stuff every day, every hour"

People who play videogames want "new content literally almost every single day", according to Blizzard president Mike Y…

www.rockpapershotgun.com

 

[Nankatsu]

Blame GaaS

 

[Sybrix]

Who'd have thought making games like casinos would drive customers to want more and more.............

Reap what you sow, if you cram loot boxes, MTX and cosmetics into games, change them weekly, no wonder you're customers have no patience.

 

[VideoGameEnjoyer]

The entire hobby kind of seems built on patience. Basically just hyping up the next big release that we wait half a decade or more for these days. Patience kind of comes with the territory.

This dude is just bitching or talking about live service stuff? Don't care. Blizzard is literally the guy in the hot dog costume meme talking about that shit. We're all trying to find out who did this...

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

don't promise to give orgasms every day then.