Support NeoGAF

[CyberPanda]

The Forza Horizon developer on its new studio, and the transition to running a game as a live service


Playground Games is rather busy. The Leamington-based developer is hard at work on an unannounced action-RPG (widely rumoured to be a revival of the Fable franchise), it's still recruiting for the second studio dedicated to this project, and work has inevitably begun on the next entry in its best-selling Forza Horizon series.

But on top of all that, the Playground team has a new challenge: running Forza Horizon 4 as a live service. Since its launch last October, the widely praised racing game has received updates and expansions every four weeks, as well as bug fixes and quality of life improvements to smooth things out for its vast online community.

While other studios have developed years of experience in servicing a live game, this is still largely uncharted territory for Playground. On our recent visit to the secretive second studio, founder and creative director Ralph Fulton praised his team for rising to that challenge.

"It's just learning a different rhythm of working for the team, and learning to balance competing priorities in a much shorter time frame than you ever do when you develop a game over two or more years," he said.

"And you can totally see the impact of that on the game as it is now, which I think is really different from the game we shipped. There's tons more content in it, we've made big changes to the online game, and that's all because of that live service program; having a live team who are dedicated to improving and expanding the game, and keeping a constant dialogue with the fans."

But with updates every four weeks (to match the rotation between seasons in the game), surely that live service team is in danger of constant crunch? Even the mighty Epic Games is reportedly putting its staff through intensive working conditions to meet the appetite of Fortnite players.

"Crunch for us is something we work very hard to remove completely," studio director Gavin Raeburn told GamesIndustry.biz. "It's not something we see as having a place in modern development, and we work very hard to minimise it or remove it completely. With the live service, our policy on that is, if we're heading towards a milestone and work cannot be completed in time, we will move it to the next milestone rather than crunch the team to meet that [deadline]."

Fulton reiterates that the live service team is dedicated solely to updating Forza Horizon 4, which avoids diverting resources from the inevitable sequel or its unannounced project. Far from management pressuring them to maintain the pace of additions to the game, conversations between Fulton and the live team suggest that the biggest pressure comes from the community.


"Crunch is something we work very hard to remove completely. It's not something we see as having a place in modern development"

-Gavin Raeburn, Playground Games


"They feel like they have to do it, like there's outcry for this particular thing, or on occasions something we've already said we'd fix," he said. "As an example, wall riding was an issue in our online game, we said we'd fix it but we didn't have the perfect solution -- [the team] felt a real pressure to deliver for the fans. But we've been quite clear with them that, because the live service could theoretically run forever, crunch cannot be an option... And they've avoided it for the period that they've been doing live service.

"The tax for doing a live program isn't so much long hours, late nights, or the things you'd typically think of as crunch. It's just that it's always going. Game development is intense and then relaxed, intense then relaxed -- it's a cycle. With a live service, there's something you need to do every day."

Raeburn added: "They go on the forums, they all see the comments, and it's hard not to get caught up wanting to do the best. That's fantastic, but there's nothing in force. It's almost the opposite. We've said we're happy to be supportive of the team, but if you're feeling the pressure, it's fine. We can change the plans, we can accommodate that and make sure there's more time in the schedule to account for the unknown issues that always arise."



Playground Games will happily move updates and fixes back to avoid crunch, but the live service team still wants to deliver for Forza fans

The challenge, then, lies in tempering community expectations. Playground's story echoes that of Path of Exile developer Grinding Gears, which recently said it feels like fans want them to crunch to meet their demands. Fulton believes it's unlikely a fanbase could ever be told to operate with restraint when asking for new content, so the onus lies on the live service team to make transparent and realistic promises.

"The team has to be clear in communicating, 'This is what we're going to do, this is when we're going to aim to have it out there' -- and the community generally responds really positively to that. Even if you're telling them something they don't want to hear, like something's not going to get fixed or might take a little longer than they expect. It's when you go silent that it becomes a problem."

Raeburn added: "They never like surprises. That's another thing we learned. Just be as open as you can, be honest about upcoming features and what might not make it. That always goes down better."

The lack of crunch has no doubt been a real boon when it comes to hiring for Playground's second studio, along with the promise of the project it's reportedly working on. It also gives an insight into why the company has been a regular winner in the GamesIndustry.biz Best Places To Work Awards.

Since we announced Playground's second studio, the developer has hired roughly 60 people, with plans to reach 200. Two years to hire less than half your intended headcount might seem slow, but Raeburn said this has been both unavoidable and somewhat deliberate.

"When you're hiring at the highest level -- we're hiring top positions and some of the best people around the world -- they don't land at exactly the point you expect them to," he explained. "You have to pull some people in early, some people take a little bit longer. There are a couple of outstanding areas we need to build up, but I'm just astonished at how great and how far along that team is. The key is getting the right people for the job, and we'll take as long as we need... Now that the senior hires are in place, the rest are coming on board at the pace we expected them to."

Fulton added: "When you open a studio, you don't open the floodgates and bring in 200 people to build a team. Ideally, you want to do it top-down -- you want to hire the leadership and then the leads before you hire the people that will fill their teams, and those are the people that are hardest to find. It's slowest going at the start, but it's worth taking your time to find the right people to fill the positions you've got, because that's what will safeguard the team for the future."


"Complacency kills. As soon as you get too sure about what you're doing, your eye is off the ball and you make mistakes"

-Gavin Raeburn, Playground Games


Raeburn admits it was particularly difficult in the beginning, when there physically wasn't a studio to interview them in, or when Playground was restricted on what it could tell people about the project, but this wasn't the hindrance he worried it might be. It also suggests Playground's RPG might be at a much earlier stage than some might hope. Given that the studio has managed to attract talent with experience working on Grand Theft Auto V, Metal Gear Solid, Mass Effect, the Batman: Arkham games, Hellblade and Horizon: Zero Dawn -- to name but a few -- you would think Raeburn might have trouble retaining such highly-sought people. But again, this hasn't been an issue.

"[The people we hire] are fully aware of the timescales we're working to," he said. "We're upfront, and they're fine with that. Everyone we're talking to is so excited to join the team, it's not been an issue. At first, people had to join us just on faith, which they did, and it's much easier now that we're in the new premises."



Playground Games' second studio is now up and running with 60 of a planned 200 team members already hired

The new premises are a ten-minute walk from Leamington Spa's Rossmore House, home to the Forza Horizon team. Finding somewhere close by was a must for Raeburn and Fulton, as any distance that requires a car or other transport becomes too great a divide between the teams. Fulton says it would have been easier and probably cheaper to establish a studio on an out-of-town business park, but this would have been, "a catastrophic decision."

And instead of having to engineer ways to encourage interaction between the two teams, natural bonds have formed between them in the form of after-work clubs, whether it's a sports team or tabletop pastimes like Dungeons & Dragons or Magic: The Gathering.


"We've been quite clear that, because the live service could theoretically run forever, crunch cannot be an option"

-Ralph Fulton, Playground Games


"The two teams are very closely linked from a technology-sharing perspective," Raeburn said. "Both teams can see the benefit of working closely together, there's no reason to not do that. Certainly, when we look at the different teams on both projects, they are encouraged -- and do so of their own will -- to get together and meet, to go out for dinner and social events. They talk about their areas of work and just bond socially. That's very important as well."

Fulton reveals that when the second studio was formed, it was carefully seeded with long-serving members of Playground, some of which had been with the company since day one.

"It instils the Playground culture, the values and the way of approaching game development that we've had into the new team, and prevents them from starting off in a position where they massively diverge from what Playground is," he said. "That's been really successful, and seeding the team across a bunch of different departments with these old timers -- they won't thank me for calling them that -- these experienced veterans has helped enormously."

Raeburn, meanwhile, tries to spend at least ten minutes with every hire made for the new studio, checking to see that they will be a good fit with the rest of the growing team.

"There are no prima donnas, and that's so important because a prima donna can pull down a game," he said. "Our people work really well together. And when you have two sites, that doesn't just disappear. You still see the benefits of working with the other studio."

The second studio's project is unlike anything Playground has ever worked on -- hence the broader hires of established AAA talent. And while company veterans may have laid the foundations for this team, it's important the new recruits are bringing their experience and fresh approaches to the project.

"Complacency kills," said Raeburn. "As soon as you get too sure about what you're doing, your eye is off the ball and you make mistakes. We always question the way we work, the way we do things. And that's why it's fantastic having all these amazing people from AAA studios around the world, because they're all bringing different ways of doing things and we have to ask if we're doing all we can to absorb that."

Playground Games: "Crunch has no place in modern development"

Playground Games is rather busy. The Leamington-based developer is hard at work on an unannounced action-RPG (widely ru…

www.gamesindustry.biz

 

[IbizaPocholo]

 

[TLZ]

Good on them. I hope all follow suit. Balance in life is very important. Good mental fully functional health is very important.

 

[Portugeezer]

Anthem needed crunch.

 

[Cosmogony]

It's wonderful that they've managed to get rid of crunch while holding to their production schedules and budgets and releasing what I assume are great products. If they've managed that, then genuine applause is due.
Kudos to them.

I don't particularly appreciate the implication that they are in a position to dictate how other modern studios operate. They're not. If I, as a young lion want to crunch because, at this specific point in time, my career is my top priority, because I am ambitious and eager and full of energy, then I'll crunch as much as I want to, thank you, in order to release the best possible game.

And the thought of asking for Playground's permission shan't ever cross my mind.

 

[Panajev2001a]

It's wonderful that they've managed to get rid of crunch while holding to their production schedules and budgets and releasing what I assume are great products. If they've managed that, then genuine applause is due.
Kudos to them.

I don't particularly appreciate the implication that they are in a position to dictate how other modern studios operate. They're not. If I, as a young lion want to crunch because, at this specific point in time, my career is my top priority, because I am ambitious and eager and full of energy, then I'll crunch as much as I want to, thank you, in order to release the best possible game.

And the thought of asking for Playground's permission shan't ever cross my mind.

Corporate overlords love this attitude as it helps workers force each other to crunch and burn the weakest links out... great if you treated talent as replaceable coding monkeys... shortsighted, but great.

 

[Cosmogony]

Corporate overlords love this attitude as it helps workersforce each other to crunch and burn the weakest links out... great if your attitude of talent is replaceable coding monkeys... shortsighted, but great.

What load of nonsense.

As a grownup with a functioning brain and free will, I alone get to decide how I steer my career, how I spend my time and no amount of insufferable condescension from you - you, who happens to know precisely jack shit about my personal circumstances and ambitions - will ever evoke anything but ill-concealed laughter.

Here's the key difference between us. I am not out to force anyone to do anything. You are. Those who want to maintain a healthy balance between career and private life are more than welcome to do so. I am not condoning enforced crunch. Not at all. Those devs, however, who for whatever reason have different plans and are equally sovereign over their own lives are equally free to live their lives as they see fit.

So, should anyone with an once of integrity give a fuck about what Mr.
Panajev2001a thinks their careers should look like?
I hardly think so.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

I prefer a more nuanced viewpoint on it that acknowledges instances where employee/employer relationships are good enough that they volunteer for crunch and such things. It's weird it gets talked about so much in the video game industry when truth be told, video games get delayed all the time, whereas movies often have their release dates set years in advance and tend to meet them unless you have unlimited cash like James Cameron and can take 10 years to finish a film. Is their not crunch in movies? I have no clue, I just know they're more likely to hit deadlines. Though the jobs are different and require different shit. I know for instance that the new Destiny DLC is their first delay ever because Activision forced them to release on schedule. In that example I'm happy they escaped crunch because THEY'RE happy to be separated and independent. I say it depends on how the employees actually feel, I've worked ridiculous stressful hours on jobs and sometimes I was totally fine with it because of my relationship with management, my conviction to getting the job done or just wanting that extra money. I don't want to diminish the horror stories that have come out, though.

 

[Panajev2001a]

What load of nonsense.

As a grownup with a functioning brain and free will, I alone get to decide how I steer my career, how I spend my time and no amount of insufferable condescension from you - you, who happen yo know precisely jack shit about my personal circumstances and ambitions - will ever evoke anything but ill-concealed laughter.

Here's the key difference between us. I am not out to force anyone to do anything. You are. Those who want to maintain a healthy balance between career and private life are more than welcome to do so. I am not condoning enforced crunch. Not at all. Those devs, however, who for whatever reason have different plans and are equally sovereign over their own lives are equally free to live their lives as they see fit.

So, should anyone with an once of integrity give a fuck about what Mr.
Panajev2001a thinks their careers should look like?
I hardly think so.

You do you my friend, my job in building sustainable high performing teams is to weed people like this out if they are aggressive like this. You are also making assumptions about me, my schedule, and what I try and am in power to impose or discourage or encourage. I guess condescension is contagious.

You are conflating the odd extra hour here and there, time spent improving one self (you spend two hours a day learning rust out of office hours because you want to progress, that ain’t crunch), you have the odd, keywords are odd and rare, regulatory deadline and some critical works may also arrive (rarely) that does not make a 9-5 lifestyle possible it can ... as a team you react to that and adjust.
This may involve changing scope (reducing it), changing implementation choice, etc... the answer is not just pulling all nighters as default until the beatings stop.

Trying to get people into heroic efforts that benefit the company more than the employee, young lion or bulldog spirit or whatever that helps trades health (physical and mental effects for people pulling in tight 10-12 hours work days, not saying leisurely spent with tons of breaks either) for work as if people were soldiers on a battlefield tends to spread in a team if unchecked and especially if those people start climbing up the ladder with this attitude.

Over time the 40 hour week schedule is there to maximise output sustainably, not employee happiness per se btw.

 

[Cosmogony]

You do you my friend, my job in building sustainable high performing teams is to weed people like this out if they are aggressive like this.

By being condescending and patronzing?
Roger that.
Luckily for both of us, there's zero chance of that hypothetical situation ever coming to fruition.

You are also making assumptions about me, my schedule, and what I try and am in power to impose or discourage or encourage.

Patently false.
I made no remarks about your schedule, nor do I care. On the contrary, my post can be summed up as follows: let devs do whatever they want to.

Playground is in no position to tell the industry, anyone outside their studio, how they should run their lives. They can think - and I might even agree in principle - that it's better to keep a balanced life, but, ultimately, it's up to each individual dev to decide.

You are conflating the odd extra hour here and there, time spent improving one self (you spend two hours a day learning rust out of office hours because you want to progress, that ain’t crunch),

No, I'm upholding the principle of personal resposnability and personal sovereignty over one's life. It's immaterial whether it's the occasional late hour or two-months straight of hard crunch. The principle still applies.

you have the odd, keywords are odd and rare, regulatory deadline and some critical works may also arrive (rarely) that does not make a 9-5 lifestyle possible it can ... as a team you react to that and adjust.
This may involve changing scope (reducing it), changing implementation choice, etc... the answer is not just pulling all nighters as default until the beatings stop.

Nor did I say it were.
I said leave it up to the voluntary decision of the dev, the one an only capable of making the call.

Trying to get people into heroic efforts that benefit the company more than the employee, young lion or bulldog spirit or whatever that helps trades health (physical and mental effects for people pulling in tight 10-12 hours work days, not saying leisurely spent with tons of breaks either) for work as if people were soldiers on a battlefield tends to spread in a team if unchecked and especially if those people start climbing up the ladder with this attitude.

As said before, I am not here endorsing devs becoming martyrs, killing themselves, killing their social life or destroying their family life just to put out a slightly better game. What I am however claiming is the inalienable right they have to live their lives as they see fit, even if Playground disagrees, even if you and I disagree. Surprising as it may be, like it or not, there are people out there who do not share your views on how life should be lived.

Their lives, their rules.

 

[Panajev2001a]

What I am however claiming is the inalienable right they have to live their lives as they see fit, even if Playground disagrees, even if you and I disagree.

If you are self employed, do what the heck you like. If you are in a team, there are rules.
If this is how the team and the company decides to handle itself fine... having unions just means that if the team wanted they would have some bargaining power to steer things differently. Nobody is here to make crunch illegal: crunch without overtime pay well... yeah... 12 months of mandatory 16 hour days without a single break... now we are getting perhaps closer to the line. No matter how anarchic or libertarian one may feel.

You are blowing this way out of proportion...

No, I'm upholding the principle of personal resposnability and personal sovereignty over one's life.

That is in no way saying there can be no rules around situations like this: I do share the appreciation for personal responsibility and quite a bit of disdain for paternalistic laws in general, but I feel it is pragmatic to understand that living in a healthy society means giving up some of that absolute sovereignty that feels straight up from a UKIP ad. Nobody has full sovereignty and it actually makes sense and it is what societies are built upon with different degrees of focus on personal freedom, privacy, theory of punishment, etc...

By being condescending and patronzing?

Projecting much?

 

[Cosmogony]

If you are self employed, do what the heck you like. If you are in a team, there are rules.

And those rules can accommodate personal responsibility and personal sovereignty.

If this is how the team and the company decides to handle itself fine...

I thought they should first run things with Playground? You know, to get their much-needed seal of approval.

having unions just means that if the team wanted they would have some bargaining power to steer things differently.

None of that contradicts my point. If devs want to unionize, which seems at least in principle reasonable, by all means go ahead. If they want to demand less hours, and no crunch at all, go ahead. Start the negotiations. That's what free markets are about.

Nobody is here to make crunch illegal: crunch without overtime pay well..

Please quote the person that was in favour of crunch without overtime pay.
Please do.

yeah... 12 months of mandatory 16 hour days without a single break... now we are getting perhaps closer to the line. No matter how anarchic or libertarian one may feel.

I'm of the following opinion: you don't get to restrict the application of libertarian principles to other people's lives as long as they wish so. If you're talking legality, then that's a different matter altogether. In that case, the matter is already settled. The law settles it.

That is in no way saying there can be no rules around situations like this: I do share the appreciation for personal responsibility and quite a bit of disdain for paternalistic laws in general, but I feel it is pragmatic to understand that living in a healthy society means giving up some of that absolute sovereignty that feels straight up from a UKIP ad.

Oh, look! it's that subtle Poisoning the Well fallacy!

Nobody has full sovereignty and it actually makes sense and it is what societies are built upon with different degrees of focus on personal freedom, privacy, theory of punishment, etc...

That discussion is beyond the scope of this thread, I'm afraid.

Projecting much?

Pleaser refer back to your original first paragraph for a festival of insufferable condescension.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

If you are self employed, do what the heck you like. If you are in a team, there are rules.

If Playground games says these are our rules and we think we can be successful by abiding to them who are you to agree? the worst that can happen is that their next Forza Horizon will be exactly like the last... oh well that has already happened.

 

[SlicedBread3]

It's weird it gets talked about so much in the video game industry when truth be told, video games get delayed all the time, whereas movies often have their release dates set years in advance and tend to meet them unless you have unlimited cash like James Cameron and can take 10 years to finish a film. Is their not crunch in movies? I have no clue, I just know they're more likely to hit deadlines.

I've worked in games but not movies, so maybe someone from that side will correct me on this. But the main issue with software development is the amount of time it takes fixing bugs and technical issues.

I'm sure there's a lot of time spent in films retaking scenes and stuff because it didn't turn look as good as was imagined. And you'll get that sort of thing in games too (For example the producer might ask you to create a new mechanic. You do so, but then they'll decide it's not as fun as they thought it would be, so then you need to change it). So I'd imagine they're pretty comparible in that area.

The difference is though when you're programming a new game mechanic or something. You might spend a day writing the code for it, then spending the rest of the week trying to figure out why the game isn't doing what you just told it to do, despite the fact that you're looking at the code now and at no point are you doing anything that would logically make the frame rate drop to 10 frames per second, but yet it's happening anyway. Only to find out it's not actually an issue with your code but a memory leak caused by one of the helper functions Bill wrote that you used. But it only happens when you pass it a very specific value that you just happened to. And you never thought to check Bill's code because you've all been using it for months with no issue. Or some shit like that.

Where as with a film, when you point a camera at a scene and hit record, you're pretty likely to have a video at the end of it. It's more predictable which is why release dates are easier to pin down.

 

[rabbity-thing]

Stuff like crunch blows my mind. At my job, people can't just brute force their way to getting people to hit a deadline. There are rules and regulations and if people don't meet their responsibilities by a certain time, then that person messed up. The need to crunch, in general, for so many titles is just shocking to me. Are their management teams just that inept when it comes to setting up a realistic timetable? Or is crunch part of their internal timetable from the get go? Honestly, I think it's rather the latter. Seems like an easy problem to fix.

 

[Mattyp]

If I, as a young lion want to crunch because, at this specific point in time, my career is my top priority, because I am ambitious and eager and full of energy, then I'll crunch as much as I want to, thank you, in order to release the best possible game.

And the thought of asking for Playground's permission shan't ever cross my mind.

Unless you're working for yourself and your business is earning the profits all you're earning is a paycheck and all you are is worker drone. Working continually harder (for the man as people put it) when you're not in charge of the operation and never will be is a waste of your personal resources.

You'll never get anywhere big in life just collecting a paycheck, if your attitude for working is so strong break off and do your own thing.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Pleaser refer back to your original first paragraph for a festival of insufferable condescension.

You cannot help yourself either hehe.

 

[Cosmogony]

Unless you're working for yourself and your business is earning the profits all you're earning is a paycheck and all you are is worker drone.

No, not really.
I can do it for free, if I want to, but I can also reach an agreent regarding due compensation with my employer. Crunch, the topic at hand, does not necessarily involve unmpaid work.

Working continually harder (for the man) when you're not in charge of the operation and never will be is a waste of your personal resources.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion.

Just do not turn your personal opinion into law, requiring others, for some bizarre reason, to live their lives according to your opinions when they are in no way infringing upon the freedom of others.

 

[ROMhack]

Crunch is becoming one of those trendy tech buzzwords for overtime isn't it.

 

[Mattyp]

Just do not turn your personal opinion into law, requiring others, for some bizarre reason, to live their lives according to your opinions when they are in no way infringing upon the freedom of others.

When did I ever imply my word was law? Other then personal opinion? If people want to earn a paycheck and that's it daily fine, no one ever earnt a Ferrari going to their 9-5 but.

All I'm implying is if your collecting a pay check on part of a salary never kill yourself to do so, there's more to life when your doing the building of someone elses empire. And if you want to work crunch hours and worry about the financial side of things make sure its for your self. All I've learnt from living it personally.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Crunch is becoming one of those trendy tech buzzwords for overtime isn't it.

No it is not I think, but if we were to just put it all under the word overtime it kind of makes it sound like less of a problem.
Interesting inversion of trends though: we are going for a harsher word over time while in many others we went backwards: see shell shock -> PTSD...

 

[Dane]

Anthem needed crunch.

Bioware Magic was basically crunch like hell months before it went gold. Anthem was a complete disaster from the beginning. They had missed every logical deadline, and a pre production that lasted for years.

 

[The Shepard]

Anthem needed crunch.

And less Anita round for tea.

 

[ROMhack]

No it is not I think, but if we were to just put it all under the word overtime it kind of makes it sound like less of a problem.
Interesting inversion of trends though: we are going for a harsher word over time while in many others we went backwards: see shell shock -> PTSD...

Fair. I don't have a dog in this fight as I haven't worked in software development.

However I somewhat wonder if contracts could be an issue? It seems that if an employee is working on a short-term contract then the implications of crunch could be much bigger for them.

Perhaps you can pass comment as it seems you have a good handle on this.

 

[Cosmogony]

When did I ever imply my word was law?

This thread comes after Playdead have declared, with pomp and circumstance, that "crunch has no place in modern development". Now, they didn't just announce they're getting rid of crunch in their own studio. No. They claim it has no place in modern development. Talk about modesty. That can only be achieved to those absolute terms by force of law.

As long as it's an opinion, everyone's entitled to theirs. I have no problem with other people holding opinions antipodean to mine. I have no problem whatsoever with you disagreeing with me.

Other then personal opinion? If people want to earn a paycheck and that's it daily fine, no one ever earnt a Ferrari going to their 9-5 but.

See above.

All I'm implying is if your collecting a pay check on part of a salary never kill yourself to do so, there's more to life when your doing the building of someone elses empire.

And I would potentially agree with you, but that's not the point I have been addressing. There is at least one person here who seems to think that it is fine and dandy to legally restrict the ability of workers to regulate their own working schedule.

And if you want to work crunch hours and worry about the financial side of things make sure its for your self. All I've learnt from living it personally.

Again, I might be inclined to agree with you, but that's irrelevant. What's relevant is whatever take the dev in question has.

 

[Fox Mulder]

It’s great that Playground Games can put out amazing and highly acclaimed games without crunch. They certainly benefit from sharing work between Forza games with Turn 10 too.

 

[Caffeine]

Anthem needed crunch.

it had it actually whatever anthem originally was became scrapped, and they crunch and duct taped whatever they had in 10-11 months time.

 

[Tesseract]

crouch?

 

[bilderberg]

The studio that's just been making the same game for a decade using turn 10's engine says they don't need crunch.

 

[joe_zazen]

You do you my friend, my job in building sustainable high performing teams is to weed people like this out if they are aggressive like this. You are also making assumptions about me, my schedule, and what I try and am in power to impose or discourage or encourage. I guess condescension is contagious.

You are conflating the odd extra hour here and there, time spent improving one self (you spend two hours a day learning rust out of office hours because you want to progress, that ain’t crunch), you have the odd, keywords are odd and rare, regulatory deadline and some critical works may also arrive (rarely) that does not make a 9-5 lifestyle possible it can ... as a team you react to that and adjust.
This may involve changing scope (reducing it), changing implementation choice, etc... the answer is not just pulling all nighters as default until the beatings stop.

Trying to get people into heroic efforts that benefit the company more than the employee, young lion or bulldog spirit or whatever that helps trades health (physical and mental effects for people pulling in tight 10-12 hours work days, not saying leisurely spent with tons of breaks either) for work as if people were soldiers on a battlefield tends to spread in a team if unchecked and especially if those people start climbing up the ladder with this attitude.

Over time the 40 hour week schedule is there to maximise output sustainably, not employee happiness per se btw.

How do you select folks for promotion or which ones for executive ladder? Afaik, best, highest performing are workaholics like Satya at MS. Or do you just manage non ambitious types?

 

[Panajev2001a]

How do you select folks for promotion or which ones for executive ladder? Afaik, best, highest performing are workaholics like Satya at MS. Or do you just manage non ambitious types?

They are quite strong people actually, team is top performers credit to them. They know when to pick their battles and when to take it normal.
Best performers for me are those that try to prevent these situations from happening, those that understand things bottom up and can be pragmatic about things... and can help the rest of the team PO included to see mid to long term pros and cons to product, tech, process choices... and they still deliver when the team needs it.

Sometimes these situations do happen and you work way above the 9-5 especially if you try to thinker with things you may break others and you have to fix them and avoid missing deadlines... but part of it is ensuring other people are informed as soon as anything changes, when there is risk... keeping your MVP focused and being able to reduce scope and move to a different iteration is key.

 

[joe_zazen]

They are quite strong people actually, team is top performers credit to them. They know when to pick their battles and when to take it normal.
Best performers for me are those that try to prevent these situations from happening, those that understand things bottom up and can be pragmatic about things... and can help the rest of the team PO included to see mid to long term pros and cons to product, tech, process choices... and they still deliver when the team needs it.

Sometimes these situations do happen and you work way above the 9-5 especially if you try to thinker with things you may break others and you have to fix them and avoid missing deadlines... but part of it is ensuring other people are informed as soon as anything changes, when there is risk... keeping your MVP focused and being able to reduce scope and move to a different iteration is key.

I suppose what i am asking is what do you do with high performance people wired to work every waking hour? Although, tbf you might not work in an industry that wants or attracts those people.

At a giant oil co i worked for, the execs were there before the earliest flextimers arrived and stayed till after the latest flextimers left; and those were the kinds of people who ended up executive laddering. There was no pressure to stay late, except if you wanted to get tracked into the corner office or top floor. But of course, not ever industry works this way.

Edit: extracting maximum work and attracting workaholics can be a powerful way to run a company, as Amazon has proven. So i dont think simply saying ‘40 hours is better’ is true for all people or all orgs. Ymmv natch.

Edit 2: of course, with Amazon there are lots of ‘i gave my soul to this company and they ditched me when i got sick’ stories as well, so maybe you are right, lol. Idk.

 

[Kenpachii]

I feel sorry for anybody that lives in a country that doesn't have a maximum of 40 hour workweek. Any company that promotes longer times to work isn't worth your time.

Here u will see at the end of the year company's stress out that employee's have to less time taken up for free days and send them home or even force them to go home with pay.

And if you stay longer then 8 hours on your job u will actually get angry managers behind your arse that its unacceptable.

 

[-Arcadia-]

The nuance missing from the crunch discussions, is probably that there’s both arguments in favor of it, and arguments against it.

Realistically, you’d want your management, or if you are management, to strike some kind of reasonable balance.

Obviously, the goal is no crunch ever. But... shit happens, release dates become concrete, and I’m sure people, artists even, who’ve poured their heart and soul into a game, want to do everything to make the best version of their vision reality. Others still, may enjoy making major bank, or the career opportunity of being a hard worker.

We can all agree that some of the stories of never-ending crunch we’ve heard of, however, border on the inhumane.

 

[bitbydeath]

Crunch = Lots of money in a short time and a massive holiday once it’s over.

That is why people like it. Obviously it’s not for everyone though.

 

[TheAdmiester]

Good god it's surprising how something so positive and innocent can still get somebody's titties in a twist. A company thinks work life balance is important and that overworking has no place in the industry and people somehow think that's a bad thing because "muh rights".

Nowhere did I see PG trying to dictate the industry with their words, I only see them offering their belief.

 

[TwiztidElf]

Loads of stuff.

The issue I have with your position is that it works for you right now.
Peoples lives and circumstances change.

One day you will have outside of work commitments, yet you're pressured by your employer to work 50+ hours a week because "your co-worker Cosmogony is ok with it"

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I don't work in the games industry, but I've never worked in a company that has these video game company crunch times. Doesn't make sense. We launch goods too (at one company we launched about 300 new skus PER YEAR, sourced from different factories around the world and never had a problem), but you don't have these crazy schedules of people working 14 hours for 3 months straight. One fucking video game seems to have more launch issues than 300 skus from places halfway around the world shipped over on container ships for launch. How the hell does that happen?

I think the biggest problem isn't the complexity of making a game. Fuck, some game companies have been making games for 30-40 years.

The problem is they seem to promise investors, stores, gamers, banks thy will commit to making a game for launch at Date X.

Best way to get around crunch is to not commit to that. Not every game company forces themselves to churn out stuff till it's ready...... Blizzard, id, Rockstar, your no-name indie dev, many of MS, Sony, Nintendo games get delayed all the time.

If a company has to launch a game at a date no matter what for budget reasons by having to cut tons of content (the NMS sky scam), then it shows you had a combo of poor planning and bullshit from the get go.

 

[EverydayBeast]

Expansion, Crunch and Forza are all very exciting.

 

[Cosmogony]

The issue I have with your position is that it works for you right now.
Peoples lives and circumstances change.

Then you misunderstood me.

My position is to leave it up to the individual dev - I cited myself as a figure of speech - to decide. I'm neither for nor against crunch. It's up to the individual dev to decide. Tell me, who is in a better position to assess and decide, you, me, any other GAF member, Playground, or the person whose life will be most affected by the decision?

One day you will have outside of work commitments, yet you're pressured by your employer to work 50+ hours a week because "your co-worker Cosmogony is ok with it"

Again, you misunderstood what I said.

If circumstances change, then the dev in question can change their mind one way or the other. I don't hold a dogmatic position that I am seeking to have imposed upon an entire industry, like Playground has.

Always, always, leave it up, not to me, not to my aprioristic opinion, not to you, not to Playground, but to the dev. They alone have the knowledge and the sovereignty to make that kind of call.

The problem is that some people seem to think they know better than the dev himself and would be seemingly willing to turn their opinions into law.

I want nothing of the sort.

Good god it's surprising how something so positive and innocent can still get somebody's titties in a twist. A company thinks work life balance is important

I also think work/life balance is important.
It's now the third time I've said as much, and on this very thread, of all places. But I don't presume to know what's best for everybody and I don't presume everyone agrees with my take on life and I don't presume to know the details and specific circumstances of each individual's life. I certainly wouldn't hold them to my opinion. They can maintain a different opinion, for whatever reason, and they can adjust their work/life balance acceding to their own outlook on life.

and that overworking has no place in the industry and people somehow think that's a bad thing because "muh rights".

This sentence directly contradicts the following, also from you.

Nowhere did I see PG trying to dictate the industry with their words, I only see them offering their belief.

"Crunch has no place in modern development"
My emphasis.

Yeah, not absolute at all.
Right.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

The issue I have with your position is that it works for you right now.
Peoples lives and circumstances change.

One day you will have outside of work commitments, yet you're pressured by your employer to work 50+ hours a week because "your co-worker Cosmogony is ok with it"

To be fair, if someone has outside of work commitments, that's on you.

I'm single with no kids and put in my normal hours. Every other mom and dad at work with kids is ALWAYS getting to work late or leaving early to do kid stuff or the babysitter is late or the million other excuses. And I'm not talking about one-off things like a doctor's appointment or a death in the family which happen rarely.

Some people are literally 365 day a year slackers who can't control their home life.

There are some people I know who have never put in a normal 8 hour day like 8-4 or 9-5. It's always something like 9:20 to 4:30..... because they have to pick up the kids or else the after school place charges them $2/minute! Lucky for them, we all work in an office so there's no punch clock thing or time tracker.

And with that, people who get to work on time always have to schedule meetings never too early or too late because they will decline as they can't get to work on time or know they have to leave early every day.

 

[TheAdmiester]

"Crunch has no place in modern development"

Yeah, not absolute at all.
Right.

Yes that's precisely what they said - where does that imply they're trying to dictate what the industry does? They think it's unnecessary, they're not saying something like "we're blacklisting everyone who has worked for a company that uses crunch"

 

[Cosmogony]

Yes that's precisely what they said - where does that imply they're trying to dictate what the industry does? They think it's unnecessary, they're not saying something like "we're blacklisting everyone who has worked for a company that uses crunch"

Who so much as suggested they'll be blacklisting people?

It's very straightforward, both regarding the opinions expressed here and the opinion expressed by Playground.

If it's all in the realm of opinions, then I have mine, you have yours, Playground have theirs, the young dev who has no family or social life and wants to put in as many hours as humanly possible has his. We would simply leave it at that, agreeing to disagree. If, however, someone wants to regulate the market one way or the other, now that'd be a different matter altogether, because they'd be preventing people from having a say and making choices. I realize some people here seem to think they know what's best for each individual, better than the individual themselves.

"There's no place for crunch in modern development".

This is an all-encompassing statement. The statement doesn't take into account the dev's needs, wants, circumstances. Nothing. It simply pontificates:

"There's no place for crunch in the modern game industry":

 

[Dontero]

You can't make good industry changing stuff without crunch. Crunch is integral part of creation process.
Those who don't crunch either thread roads created by others before them or they make shit garbage.

 

[SlicedBread3]

You can't make good industry changing stuff without crunch. Crunch is integral part of creation process.
Those who don't crunch either thread roads created by others before them or they make shit garbage.

You say in a thread about how the studio behind some of the highest rated games this gen avoid crunch.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

While it's cool that businesses pursue quality-of-life for their workers, as a customer I don't care if a game was made on crunch or if it was made 7 hours per week by a dude in his garage. This is the sort of empathetic crap that has infected all sorts of other consumer goods. Buy my shoes because we donate to charities. Okay, that's wonderful, but your shoes are overpriced and aren't very comfortable.

A passionate team that busts their butt will be able to surpass teams that paint large boundaries around themselves. Videogames are still pieces of entertainment and thus require a certain measure of blood, sweat, and tears to be good.

It's a corporate virtue signal. "Our videogames aren't made in sweatshops and we donate 5% of our profits to a yearly indie convention please buy our game"

 

[hunthunt]

#FirstWorldProblems

 

[SlicedBread3]

While it's cool that businesses pursue quality-of-life for their workers, as a customer I don't care if a game was made on crunch or if it was made 7 hours per week by a dude in his garage. This is the sort of empathetic crap that has infected all sorts of other consumer goods. Buy my shoes because we donate to charities. Okay, that's wonderful, but your shoes are overpriced and aren't very comfortable.

A passionate team that busts their butt will be able to surpass teams that paint large boundaries around themselves. Videogames are still pieces of entertainment and thus require a certain measure of blood, sweat, and tears to be good.

It's a corporate virtue signal. "Our videogames aren't made in sweatshops and we donate 5% of our profits to a yearly indie convention please buy our game"

In fairness it's an article on a games industry site, it's not really aimed at consumers.

And making your team work unreasonable hours for crap pay is a great way to take the passion out of a project. Because at that point people just want it out the door so they can go home and see their families and/or sleep.

#FirstWorldProblems

Nah this sort of thing happens in third world countries too. A first world problem is more like getting nervous about the idea of a video game taking longer to make or being less ambitious so that some people can have better working conditions.

 

[Belmonte]

In fairness it's an article on a games industry site, it's not really aimed at consumers.

And making your team work unreasonable hours for crap pay is a great way to take the passion out of a project. Because at that point people just want it out the door so they can go home and see their families and/or sleep.

Very true. As a consumer, I don't like how many great devs don't work in games anymore because of burnout. There is a lot of bleed of talent in the industry.

 

[jakinov]

I think crunch is fine as long as it's not forced. If individuals choose to dedicate their own time because of either passion or they want to show off to help their careers then that's their prerogative.