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[SlimySnake]

So apparently the James Web Telescope captured a galaxy that was formed 280 million years after the big bang, and is more fully formed than our models would have predicted for such a young galaxy. According to the videos youtube's been feeding me these past few days, this has caused some scientists to rethink their models, and some now believe that we might be peering into a galaxy in another universe. Some believe this galaxy might have been remnants from another universe that collapsed into a black hole and spawned off another universe. Some think that each blackhole in our universe might contain its own universe.

Lots of cool theories here, and they all conflict with the big bang being the point of origin of all things. It seems like it just might be the point of origin for our tiny universe in a long line of other universes.





I really enjoyed the last thread so figured this would interest others. This stuff is fascinating especially since it kind of challenges the big bang theory and shows us that we dont really know anything.

 

[poppabk]

That ending of Men in Black could be true. We have no real sense of anything beyond our own viewpoint from within whatever system we are in. The physical laws that we try to elucidate also limit what we can perceive.
We have done a freaking amazing job of learning about the reality we find ourselves in, but at the same time we know absolutely nothing.

 

[sono]

280 million years is a long time, so why can't galaxies form faster than we thought. Occam's razor

 

[bender]

That ending of Men in Black could be true. We have no real sense of anything beyond our own viewpoint from within whatever system we are in. The physical laws that we try to elucidate also limit what we can perceive.
We have done a freaking amazing job of learning about the reality we find ourselves in, but at the same time we know absolutely nothing.

Yeah. No matter what theory you buy into, you can always ask the question of, "what happened before then?" or some perversion of the mover theories from philopshy.

 

[HRK69]

As always, things like this really have a way of making my head spin

The moment I start asking myself, "What happened before all of this?" it's like opening a door to an endless hallway of questions

Sometimes, if I ponder it for too long, I feel a kind of panic setting in, not loud or dramatic, but a quiet, creeping feeling like I've wandered too far from solid ground. It's overwhelming, like my mind is reaching for something it was never meant to fully grasp

Its both fascinating and unsettling, like trying to look at infinity without blinking

 

[Zathalus]

Be careful which science channels you follow on YouTube. Lots of sensational bullshit out there.

The galaxies being that young can mean our understanding of how early galaxies formed is likely incorrect.

 

[MaestroMike]

Universes probably make baby universes and die and then the baby universe grows up and spawns more babies and that dies too and it keeps going like that forever

 

[Jinzo Prime]

As always, things like this really have a way of making my head spin

The moment I start asking myself, "What happened before all of this?" it's like opening a door to an endless hallway of questions

Sometimes, if I ponder it for too long, I feel a kind of panic setting in, not loud or dramatic, but a quiet, creeping feeling like I've wandered too far from solid ground. It's overwhelming, like my mind is reaching for something it was never meant to fully grasp

Its both fascinating and unsettling, like trying to look at infinity without blinking

It's a form of existential crisis that anyone with deep thoughts goes through at some point in thier lives. I remember being a teenager and staring up at the night sky feeling waves of dread about why I'm here and what is the point of "all this."

 

[Trilobit]

As always, things like this really have a way of making my head spin

The moment I start asking myself, "What happened before all of this?" it's like opening a door to an endless hallway of questions

Sometimes, if I ponder it for too long, I feel a kind of panic setting in, not loud or dramatic, but a quiet, creeping feeling like I've wandered too far from solid ground. It's overwhelming, like my mind is reaching for something it was never meant to fully grasp

Its both fascinating and unsettling, like trying to look at infinity without blinking

When I was 7 or 8 I sometimes thought to myself "if nothing was then what would be" and I managed to elicit a very particular feeling from that thought quite often. My little mind just couldn't comprehend non-existence. Not that I understand those concepts better today, but I feel like I know enough to realize there are things I'll never grasp.

 

[Trogdor1123]

280 million years is a long time, so why can't galaxies form faster than we thought. Occam's razor

This is exactly what people with more knowledge are saying.

Our model is simply missing something about the formation of galaxies. It can also have to do with star formation and black holes skewing the data. That's all exciting enough on its own and also has impacts on loads of things including the development of life across the universe. It's exciting stuff.

There are way more interesting data points relating to previous universes (and some saying none at all) than this.

It's exciting times in cosmology.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

The question of "before" has no meaning because it implies the passage of time.
The big bang wasn't just the start and the expansion of space but of space-time, it's one thing, one not existing without the other, making anything that's "outside" or "before" unknownable.

 

[Dr.Morris79]

Be careful which science channels you follow on YouTube. Lots of sensational bullshit out there.

Yeah that's one thing that really pisses me off with YouTube. It's become quite hard to get an actual good, factually to the point channel

Just the other day I was searching on certain Egypt stuff and it was mostly 'OMG, You WONT believe..'

It's the same with anything 'Space' I look for

Pffft.

But saying that I've even started to feel that quite a few books are this way, so much so that I've been trying to root out early, early works.. ones that are untouched by 'modern' slants..

 

[NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt]

Yeah that's one thing that really pisses me off with YouTube. It's become quite hard to get an actual good, factually to the point channel

Just the other day I was searching on certain Egypt stuff and it was mostly 'OMG, You WONT believe..'

It's the same with anything 'Space' I look for

Pffft.

But saying that I've even started to feel that quite a few books are this way, so much so that I've been trying to root out early, early works.. ones that are untouched by 'modern' slants..

I hope the things underneath the Great Pyramids of Giza are real

I want my Aliens

 

[killatopak]

there is no before the big bang.

Time didn't exist before then.

 

[violence]

Really sucks we have all this light pollution. We are cut off from a pretty spectacular night sky that man had always enjoyed.

Probably the main reason to live on Mars is the skybox.

 

[Dr.Morris79]

I hope the things underneath the Great Pyramids of Giza are real

How did you know that's what I was looking for??

I want my Aliens

Right. Seeing as we're in a theory thread, I'll give it ya straight! After being buried arse deep in this stuff for months upon months, here is my theory..

On it all

We, the current human race, are descended from something maybe not of this earth.. maybe we were 'made'

There was 'something' before us but we just never had the understanding at the time to comprehend it, like a child that just does, but not really question.

The Bible, is real, but not in the way we perceive. Most of it is just round about stories of things that happend, just jazzed up, but, there are real things that happend in it..

So..

The Ten Commandments, now this I feel is the pinnacle thing. If and only IF humans actually stick to the text and not deviate, humanity would plod along nicely, but we didnt, and here we are doing all sorts of crazy shit..

So to sum up..

Some uber big brained mega alien dudes made us, showed us some mad stuff they could build (Pyramids, etc, stuff they probably were using as some crazy arse intergalactic power station), got pissed off with our monkey arses, chucked us the ten Commandments, told us to live by it or face ruin, and fucked off

We're only now finding out about it. Yet when we do find more, we still won't understand it

We were never meant to, we're just the stupid made monkeys



...I'm joking by the way, but it's a fun story

 

[NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt]

How did you know that's what I was looking for??


Right. Seeing as we're in a theory thread, I'll give it ya straight! After being buried arse deep in this stuff for months upon months, here is my theory..

On it all

We, the current human race, are descended from something maybe not of this earth.. maybe we were 'made'

There was 'something' before us but we just never had the understanding at the time to comprehend it, like a child that just does, but not really question.

The Bible, is real, but not in the way we perceive. Most of it is just round about stories of things that happend, just jazzed up, but, there are real things that happend in it..

So..

The Ten Commandments, now this I feel is the pinnacle thing. If and only IF humans actually stick to the text and not deviate, humanity would plod along nicely, but we didnt, and here we are doing all sorts of crazy shit..

So to sum up..

Some uber big brained mega alien dudes made us, showed us some mad stuff they could build (Pyramids, etc, stuff they probably were using as some crazy arse intergalactic power station), got pissed off with our monkey arses, chucked us the ten Commandments, told us to live by it or face ruin, and fucked off

We're only now finding out about it. Yet when we do find more, we still won't understand it

We were never meant to, we're just the stupid made monkeys



...I'm joking by the way, but it's a fun story

Jesus was an Alien, he ascended back to his spaceship

 

[cormack12]

After the 'big bang' or whatever we call it thats when the laws of physics as we know them were applied to the outcome of that (i.e. this universe).

Prior to the 'big bang', the same physics are theorised not to have applied to the quantum state. So its actually possible the universe was born 'before' the big bang. I've been reading loads about this stuff and it really does boggle the mind.

 

[Dr.Morris79]

Jesus was an Alien, he ascended back to his spaceship

I knew it!!!

..Imagine if that was real though. I don't think the mother inlaw could take it, she loves a bit of church on a Sunday, and she don't believe in aliens

 

[touchfuzzy]

How did you know that's what I was looking for??


Right. Seeing as we're in a theory thread, I'll give it ya straight! After being buried arse deep in this stuff for months upon months, here is my theory..

On it all

We, the current human race, are descended from something maybe not of this earth.. maybe we were 'made'

There was 'something' before us but we just never had the understanding at the time to comprehend it, like a child that just does, but not really question.

The Bible, is real, but not in the way we perceive. Most of it is just round about stories of things that happend, just jazzed up, but, there are real things that happend in it..

So..

The Ten Commandments, now this I feel is the pinnacle thing. If and only IF humans actually stick to the text and not deviate, humanity would plod along nicely, but we didnt, and here we are doing all sorts of crazy shit..

So to sum up..

Some uber big brained mega alien dudes made us, showed us some mad stuff they could build (Pyramids, etc, stuff they probably were using as some crazy arse intergalactic power station), got pissed off with our monkey arses, chucked us the ten Commandments, told us to live by it or face ruin, and fucked off

We're only now finding out about it. Yet when we do find more, we still won't understand it

We were never meant to, we're just the stupid made monkeys



...I'm joking by the way, but it's a fun story

I like the one that we're some dumb trouble-making pet species that some higher intelligence got sick of taking care of and left here. They;'re passing by a few thousand years later and are like "Oh yeah this is where we left our shitty pets" and take a peek and see 8 billion of us, and then run away and make sure they don't tell their boss what happened.

 

[Dr.Morris79]

I like the one that we're some dumb trouble-making pet species that some higher intelligence got sick of taking care of and left here. They;'re passing by a few thousand years later and are like "Oh yeah this is where we left our shitty pets" and take a peek and see 8 billion of us, and then run away and make sure they don't tell their boss what happened.

Their boss asks how is Cleplariun B124 turning out?

Yeah, yeah it's good boss, couldn't be better



..'Crap, We're so fired..'

 

[Wheeljack539]

Be careful which science channels you follow on YouTube. Lots of sensational bullshit out there.

The galaxies being that young can mean our understanding of how early galaxies formed is likely incorrect.

Either that or we could be wrong in a number of our mainstream theories we believe to be correct.

A lot of our sleuthing is guesswork and just when we think we got it right something throws a wrench in the works.

 

[Trunx81]

My own theory is that every galaxy is a brain cell and we are just part of it, causing cancer

 

[Wildebeest]

I think that the big bang was ever really as well understood as popular science makes it out to be. It is a "best guess" of the early life of the universe but the mathematical models do not really hold together that coherently at the very start.

 

[Hookshot]

Nothing we conceive changes anything about it. There's always a "but what was before that?" No matter how long you think about it. For some reason there is always something and that's the answer.

 

[Punished Miku]

Yeah. No matter what theory you buy into, you can always ask the question of, "what happened before then?" or some perversion of the mover theories from philopshy.

 

[Doom85]

"Before there was time, before there was anything, there was nothing. And before there was nothing, there were monsters." - The Lich (Adventure Time)

 

[Rentahamster]

Yeah. No matter what theory you buy into, you can always ask the question of, "what happened before then?" or some perversion of the mover theories from philopshy.

The moment I start asking myself, "What happened before all of this?" it's like opening a door to an endless hallway of questions

Nothing we conceive changes anything about it. There's always a "but what was before that?" No matter how long you think about it. For some reason there is always something and that's the answer.

If there was a point where time itself started to exist, then there is no "before". That's like trying to go more south than the south pole.

Our primitive monkey brains take in our sense data to try to map out our perception of reality and we're always going to be temporally biased because that's how we live our lives, even if the actual underlying mechanics of the universe don't actually follow rules that intuitively make sense to us.

 

[bender]

If there was a point where time itself started to exist, then there is no "before". That's like trying to go more south than the south pole.

Our primitive monkey brains take in our sense data to try to map out our perception of reality and we're always going to be temporally biased because that's how we live our lives, even if the actual underlying mechanics of the universe don't actually follow rules that intuitively make sense to us.

There has to be a before that set the wheels in motion as something would have caused time to start in the first place. Further, I'm not hindered by a primitive monkey or rodent brain.

 

[Rentahamster]

There has to be a before that set the wheels in motion as something would have caused time to start in the first place.

There is no before. In order for there to be a before, there needs to be time to make any concept of before make sense.

 

[bender]

There is no before. In order for there to be a before, there needs to be time to make any concept of before make sense.

In your view, but you know as much as anyone which is nothing. It's less about before and more about causation.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

There has to be a before

nope, no time, no before, just always and forever.

 

[bender]

nope, no time, no before, just always and forever.

That's a nice theory.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

That's a nice theory.

Very nice yeah, since it's the most likely considering what's known about the behaviour of space-time.

 

[rm082e]

Whenever we encounter something like this, every wild "what if...?" theory out there gets dredged up and trotted back out - especially with social media and video platforms being what they are today.

While the questions are interesting, it seems obvious the answer will come along with the understanding of the physics we don't yet understand. Our current model is based on our current understanding, which we already know is incomplete.

 

[Rentahamster]

In your view, but you know as much as anyone which is nothing.

Our current capabilities do not let us investigate the first moments of the universe beyond a very tiny fraction of a second after the universe starts to expand, so all we can do is theorize what it could be.

It's less about before and more about causation.

Causation runs into the same problem. The concept of causation necessitates a temporal component for it to make any sense. The cause comes before the effect. If there is no before, there is no cause, in the orthodox sense.

If one posits the idea that time can exist prior to the expansion of the universe in order for there to be a "before" or a "cause", one would have to explain how it is that space is decoupled from time, and if that is even a plausible thing that can happen.

 

[bender]

Very nice yeah, since it's the most likely considering what's known about the behaviour of space-time.

Most likely in humankind's current understanding which is ever evolving and limited. I appreciate your confidence even if I don't share it.

 

[Artoris]

Maybe if a black hole gets too large it explodes and that is a big bang

 

[thefool]

Evidently we know jack shit about most of this stuff.

 

[bender]

Our current capabilities do not let us investigate the first moments of the universe beyond a very tiny fraction of a second after the universe starts to expand, so all we can do is theorize what it could be.



Causation runs into the same problem. The concept of causation necessitates a temporal component for it to make any sense. The cause comes before the effect. If there is no before, there is no cause, in the orthodox sense.

If one posits the idea that time can exist prior to the expansion of the universe in order for there to be a "before" or a "cause", one would have to explain how it is that space is decoupled from time, and if that is even a plausible thing that can happen.

Causation and before run into issue based on our limited understanding of how things work, but so would concepts liking beginning, forever, always. We theorize based our best understanding of our reality which is why I mentioned the philopshy 101 concept of prime movers and how that anchor of thought helped spur all sorts of philosophies, sciences, and religions.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

Most likely in humankind's current understanding which is ever evolving and limited.

This is just another way of saying you believe in magic/deity/simulation/complete make belief based on zero evidence, while discounting something that's been studied extensively, you're attempting to inject purpose into something that's unknowable because everything that exists in space-time is bound to it; the concepts of outside and before are meaningless in this context.

 

[Pagusas]

There has to be a before that set the wheels in motion as something would have caused time to start in the first place. Further, I'm not hindered by a primitive monkey or rodent brain.

Nope, thats like saying whats north of the north pole, NOTHING and EVERYTHING! We don't know enough about anything to ever claim that something "has to be". For all we know Time is a circle/sphere, and we keep walking north thinking it'll have an end/beginning, but nope, it could just be a forever loop.

 

[Rentahamster]

Causation and before run into issue based on our limited understanding of how things work, but so would concepts liking beginning, forever, always.

We do have a limited understanding, and our language is an imperfect way to describe the complexities of the fabric of reality. We can be confident, however, that we know more than we did 50 years ago, and 50 years ago, we knew more than we did 100 years ago. However incomplete our knowledge is, it is still growing and advancing.

Funny you should mention "forever" and "always", because that would actually not have as big of a conflict with causation or the concept of "before". If time has always existed, there's always a before and an after.

We theorize based our best understanding of our reality which is why I mentioned the philopshy 101 concept of prime movers and how that anchor of thought helped spur all sorts of philosophies, sciences, and religions.

Yes we do, and while philosophy does have its uses, it is limited in its ability to collect/observe/investigate empirical data, which makes it more relevant to culture than it is to science.

 

[bender]

Nope, thats like saying whats north of the north pole, NOTHING and EVERYTHING! We don't know enough about anything to ever claim that something "has to be". For all we know Time is a circle/sphere, and we keep walking north thinking it'll have an end/beginning, but nope, it could just be a forever loop.

Saying nope with confidence is as strong as me saying "has to be". "Has to be" might be poor language on my part, but causation is fascinating or rather trying to understand the unknown or unknowable is fascinating. Interesting that you mention a loop because that's what this conversation brought to my mind. No matter how far we can go back, we can wonder about farther back and they'll never be a satisfactory answer unless it is a loop and we experience the crossover of a cycle.

This is just another way of saying you believe in magic/deity/simulation/complete make belief based on zero evidence, while discounting something that's been studied extensively, you're attempting to inject purpose into something that's unknowable because everything that exists in space-time is bound to it; the concepts of outside and before are meaningless in this context.

Nonsense. Our understanding and the evolution of that understanding is impressive, but that knowledge does evolve based on those ongoing extensive studies. I'm not trying to inject purpose into anything and my my initial comments, even if you consider them meaningless in this context, which just a 30 year-old memory of sitting in a philopshy class.

We do have a limited understanding, and our language is an imperfect way to describe the complexities of the fabric of reality. We can be confident, however, that we know more than we did 50 years ago, and 50 years ago, we knew more than we did 100 years ago. However incomplete our knowledge is, it is still growing and advancing.

Funny you should mention "forever" and "always", because that would actually not have as big of a conflict with causation or the concept of "before". If time has always existed, there's always a before and an after.



Yes we do, and while philosophy does have its uses, it is limited in its ability to collect/observe/investigate empirical data, which makes it more relevant to culture than it is to science.

And 100 years from our understanding will be broader. I only mentioned always and forever since someone else used those concepts in another reply.

 

[Rentahamster]

Saying nope with confidence is as strong as me saying "has to be".

Yes and no. Devoid of context, the positive affirmation is just as strong as the negative affirmation.

However, when it comes to the current topic, there is context. Let's present it as two logical statements.

Statement A (not sound/valid)

1. Time begins to exist
2. Temporal events can only occur while time exists
3. There has to be temporal events before the existence of time

Statement B (sound/valid)

1. Time begins to exist
2. Temporal events can only occur while time exists
3. Nope, there are no temporal events before the existence of time

Within this context, Statement B is more logical, and thus has a stronger grounding. In order for Statement A to compete, you would have to adjust the second premise to justify why temporal events could occur prior to the beginning of time. Saying "well, we just don't know" is not sufficient because it can be applied to either statement equally.

 

[bender]

Yes and no. Devoid of context, the positive affirmation is just as strong as the negative affirmation.

However, when it comes to the current topic, there is context. Let's present it as two logical statements.

Statement A (not sound/valid)

1. Time begins to exist
2. Temporal events can only occur while time exists
3. There has to be temporal events before the existence of time

Statement B (sound/valid)

1. Time begins to exist
2. Temporal events can only occur while time exists
3. Nope, there are no temporal events before the existence of time

Within this context, Statement B is more logical, and thus has a stronger grounding. In order for Statement A to compete, you would have to adjust the second premise to justify why temporal events could occur prior to the beginning of time. Saying "well, we just don't know" is not sufficient because it can be applied to either statement equally.

That's a good summation. I guess I was just coming from this conversation with "what made time begin to exist". And I realize the folly as it's akin to asking a creationist who or what created God and it leads to an onion with infinite layers. I do have a problem with the concepts that run counter to finite, but since I'm usually wrong, that's almost assuredly the correct answer.

 

[Avid Reading Horse]

We have been so blessed as to witness the universe's true inflection point. From the universe building to its purpose, to where it began deconstructing as it descends towards its inexorable end.

The apex that all of nature had built towards?

Spoiler

The Mark Sanchez Butt Fumble of course.

No longer did we have to consider the question, "why are we here?", for we had gazed the divine and knew our purpose in that moment.

 

[Pagusas]

We have been so blessed as to witness the universe's true inflection point. From the universe building to its purpose, to where it began deconstructing as it descends towards its inexorable end.

The apex that all of nature had built towards?

Spoiler

The Mark Sanchez Butt Fumble of course.

No longer did we have to consider the question, "why are we here?", for we had gazed the divine and knew our purpose in that moment.

This is also why the world has seemed to tumble out of control sense this moment, we no longer have a purpose to exist in this universe, its been fulfilled.

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

Worth a listen

 

[Biff]

Not sure if its because of the JWT discovery in the OP, but I've been enjoying the new theory that recently emerged that we, i.e. our universe, is fully contained within a black hole of an even larger universe.

This would explain why there's a seeming "end" to our visible universe... this would effectively be the event horizon of the black hole we are in.

It also would resolve the notion of whether time began before the Big Bang. Nope - time existed far, far before that, because our black hole is within a much older universe.

Now, as to when that universe began... that happened infinite time ago, as that universe could also be within the black hole of another older universe, etc.

LOL it's all so silly when you type it out, but it's such a fun mindfuck to think through.