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PoliGAF 2011: Of Weiners, Boehners, Santorum, and Teabags

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eznark

Banned
besada said:
The only real problems the Republican base is going to have with Perry is his controversial call on the HPV vaccine and the Trans Texas Corridor -- an enormous failure that was designed as one of the biggest government land-grabs, ever. I don't think either of them is going to cause him too much difficulty with the base.

In nearly every other aspect, he's in lock-step with the base. Of course, the rumor in Texas, for decades now, is that he's secretly gay. But if it hasn't managed to surface in his tenure as Lt. Governor and Governor, I doubt it will.

From a Democratic perspective, he's an unholy nightmare, but the base likes him just fine, and more importantly, the money-men absolutely fucking love him.

I would love to see Romney try to score points against him using a mandated vaccine or a debacle of an infrastructure project. That would be awesome.

If you're referring to capital punishment, that's probably a political plus. Although I'd love to hear people championing the Osama assassination to bolster Obama's foreign cred try to claim capital punishment is bad.
 

besada

Banned
eznark said:
I would love to see Romney try to score points against him using a mandated vaccine or a debacle of an infrastructure project. That would be awesome.

If you're referring to capital punishment, that's probably a political plus. Although I'd love to hear people championing the Osama assassination to bolster Obama's foreign cred try to claim capital punishment is bad.

Yeah, against Romney his two biggest failures essentially become untouchable topics. Personally, I just want to see the to of them do a hair-off.

The Cameron Todd Willingham thing is worse than your average death penalty case. In the general it might actually do him some damage, but it won't have much effect on the primary.
 

gcubed

Member
eznark said:
People need to be trained on how to paint a roof? Sheesh.

people need to be trained to get off their asses and accept a job and actually do WORK instead of saying "its beneath me"

by training, i mean a kick in the ass, and by kick in the ass i mean extended unemployment going away
 

eznark

Banned
besada said:
Yeah, against Romney, his two biggest failures essentially become untouchable topics. Personally, I just want to see the to of them do a hair-off.

The Cameron Todd Willingham thing is worse than your average death penalty case. In the general it might actually do him some damage, but it won't have much effect on the primary.

I wasn't aware of the specific case. If he's been interfering with the investigation that's awful (and a disqualifier), but hardly murder. If he hasn't been interfering with the investigation then it's not even a blip on the radar.
 
eznark said:
I wasn't aware of the specific case. If he's been interfering with the investigation that's awful (and a disqualifier), but hardly murder. If he hasn't been interfering with the investigation then it's not even a blip on the radar.

His interference in the investigation isn't the murder. Willingham's murder is the murder. Perry had on his desk evidence from a renowned arson investigator and scientist that there was no evidence any crime ever occurred. Perry killed him anyway because the 30 day-reprieve requested by Willingham was just too much of an inconvenience to determine whether a Texas citizen should live or die.
 

besada

Banned
eznark said:
I wasn't aware of the specific case. If he's been interfering with the investigation that's awful (and a disqualifier), but hardly murder. If he hasn't been interfering with the investigation then it's not even a blip on the radar.

Well, its murder (morally, if not legally) if you knew he was innocent and then refused to pardon him, which may be the case here. In short, Perry saw evidence from an arson investigator saying there was no evidence to support Willingham's execution, and Perry ignored it and let him get the needle anyway. Then, when it became apparent that there was going to be an investigation, he fired a chunk of the investigatory board and replaced them with his cronies.

Again, it's nothing the other Republican candidates are going to swing at. I'm personally horrified about it, but I'm against the death penalty, so I'm not really representative of American opinion.
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
I have no opinion on the death penalty, but stuff like that bothers me. If it should be used at all, it should only be used in cases of firm, perfect evidence.

DNA, multiple eyewitness, video evidence, confession, etc. This thing about a fire and speculation is ridiculous.
 
The Cameron Todd Willingham monstrosity of a death penalty is specifically why Rick Perry isn't someone I particularly disagree with, but someone I actually despise. This goes well beyond appointing Don Mcleroy as chairman of the Texas State Board of Education and embarrassing his state and the nation before the world at large. His complete and total disregard for science is abominable. I put him in the same category of complete and fatal idiocy as parents who refuse treatment for easily curable diseases because of their religious beliefs and let their children die. This man was presented with scientific evidence casting considerable doubt over the conclusion that this was even a murder and brushes it off saying "Herp derp science don't prove nothing" and did nothing about it. Not only that, years later when this debacle became apparent he intentionally went out of his way to impede the investigation of the Texas Forensic Science Commission.
 
Mortrialus said:
The Cameron Todd Willingham monstrosity of a death penalty is specifically why Rick Perry isn't someone I particularly disagree with, but someone I actually despise. His complete and total disregard for science is abominable. I put him in the same category of complete and fatal idiocy as parents who refuse treatment for easily curable diseases because of their religious beliefs and let their children die. This man was presented with scientific evidence casting considerable doubt over the conclusion that this was even a murder and brushes it off saying "Herp derp science don't prove nothing" and did nothing about it. Not only that, years later when this debacle became apparent he intentionally went out of his way to impede the investigation of the Texas Forensic Science Commission.

I'd love for him to win the nomination just to guarantee someone asks him a question about that on national television. Disgusting.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Mortrialus said:
The Cameron Todd Willingham monstrosity of a death penalty is specifically why Rick Perry isn't someone I particularly disagree with, but someone I actually despise. His complete and total disregard for science is abominable. I put him in the same category of complete and fatal idiocy as parents who refuse treatment for easily curable diseases because of their religious beliefs and let their children die. This man was presented with scientific evidence casting considerable doubt over the conclusion that this was even a murder and brushes it off saying "Herp derp science don't prove nothing" and did nothing about it. Not only that, years later when this debacle became apparent he intentionally went out of his way to impede the investigation of the Texas Forensic Science Commission.
That's some crook level shit.
 
Mortrialus said:
The Cameron Todd Willingham monstrosity of a death penalty is specifically why Rick Perry isn't someone I particularly disagree with, but someone I actually despise. His complete and total disregard for science is abominable. I put him in the same category of complete and fatal idiocy as parents who refuse treatment for easily curable diseases because of their religious beliefs and let their children die. This man was presented with scientific evidence casting considerable doubt over the conclusion that this was even a murder and brushes it off saying "Herp derp science don't prove nothing" and did nothing about it. Not only that, years later when this debacle became apparent he intentionally went out of his way to impede the investigation of the Texas Forensic Science Commission.

There was a story on NPR now about a mexican national (not an immigrant) on texas death row right now.

The guy was not provided legal representation by his consulate and was instead handed off to a public defender. (it's legally required due to treaties we have signed with mexico) Mexico has been lobbying hard to get him some representation and Rick Perry refuses to retry the case.

Mexico took these cases to the International Court of Justice in The Hague. In 2004, the court ruled that the U.S. had violated its treaty obligations and ordered the U.S. to review these cases to see if the violation had prejudiced the men's defenses.

To the surprise of both conservatives and liberals, President Bush was persuaded by this State Department's argument and ordered states to review their foreign national cases. But Texas Gov. Rick Perry said no, and to the Bush administration's chagrin, the Republican governor challenged his predecessor in federal court — and won.

"Texas has been particularly resistant to complying. I think Texas and the governor have tended to think this is a question of bowing to pressure from Washington or protecting the sovereignty of Texas from international tribunals in The Hague," Bellinger says.

Although Perry, the state attorney general's office and the Texas Board of Pardons and Paroles all declined to speak to NPR, Perry's staff in the past has said, "The world court has no standing in Texas and Texas is not bound by a ruling or edict from a foreign court. It's very important to remember that these individuals are on death row for killing our citizens."

http://www.npr.org/2011/06/15/137202798/planned-texas-execution-has-mexico-up-in-arms
 
PhoenixDark said:
I'd love for him to win the nomination just to guarantee someone asks him a question about that on national television. Disgusting.

Agreed, but at the same time we'd still be risking him actually being elected president.


Manmademan said:
There was a story on NPR now about a mexican national (not an immigrant) on texas death row right now.

The guy was not provided legal representation by his consulate and was instead handed off to a public defender. (it's legally required due to treaties we have signed with mexico) Mexico has been lobbying hard to get him some representation and Rick Perry refuses to retry the case.



http://www.npr.org/2011/06/15/137202798/planned-texas-execution-has-mexico-up-in-arms

What can I say? Rick Perry is a contemptible git.
 

eznark

Banned
PhoenixDark said:
I'd love for him to win the nomination just to guarantee someone asks him a question about that on national television. Disgusting.

I would have to assume someone has asked about it before, what's been his response?
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Chris Christie also showed a particular level of disinterest in considering innocence or even justice as a prosecutor.
 
I am usually not an angry person. Hence the reason for my username, Dr. Pangloss the eternal optimist. But this right here has the potential to make me want to riot and just break something: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/20/business/20tax.html?pagewanted=all

Some of the nation’s largest corporations have amassed vast profits outside the country and are pressing Congress and the Obama administration for a tax break to bring the money home.

Under the proposal, known as a repatriation holiday, the federal income tax owed on such profits returned to the United States would fall to 5.25 percent for one year, from 35 percent. In the short term, the measure could generate tens of billions in tax revenues as companies transfer money that would otherwise remain abroad, and it could help ease the huge budget deficit.

Corporations and their lobbyists say the tax break could resuscitate the gasping recovery by inducing multinational corporations to inject $1 trillion or more into the economy, and they promoted the proposal as “the next stimulus” at a conference last Wednesday in Washington.

“For every billion dollars that we invest, that creates 15,000 to 20,000 jobs either directly or indirectly,” Jim Rogers, the chief of Duke Energy, said at the conference. Duke has $1.3 billion in profits overseas.

But that’s not how it worked last time. Congress and the Bush administration offered companies a similar tax incentive, in 2005, in hopes of spurring domestic hiring and investment, and 800 took advantage.

Though the tax break lured them into bringing $312 billion back to the United States, 92 percent of that money was returned to shareholders in the form of dividends and stock buybacks, according to a study by the nonpartisan National Bureau of Economic Research.

This money comes from overseas operations and in some cases accounting maneuvers that shift domestic profits to low-tax countries. The study concluded that the program “did not increase domestic investment, employment or research and development.”

Indeed, 60 percent of the benefits went to just 15 of the largest United States multinational companies — many of which laid off domestic workers, closed plants and shifted even more of their profits and resources abroad in hopes of cashing in on the next repatriation holiday.

Merck, the pharmaceutical giant based in Whitehouse Station, N.J., was one of those big winners. The company brought home $15.9 billion, second overall to Pfizer’s $37 billion. It used the money for “U.S.-based research and development spending, capital investments in U.S. plants, and salaries and wages for the U.S.,” a Merck spokesman, Steven Campanini, said last week.

According to regulatory filings, though, the company cut its work force and capital spending in this country in the three years that followed.

Merck used the cash infusion to continue paying dividends and buying back stock for the benefit of shareholders and executives — even as it was rocked by more than $8 billion in costs to settle a variety of disputes after executive missteps. Merck had to pay billions in back taxes to the I.R.S.; billions more to consumers suing because of the dangerous side effects of the painkiller Vioxx, and hundreds of millions to the Justice Department, which had accused the company of defrauding Medicare.

The tax break, part of the American Jobs Creation Act, lacked safeguards to ensure the companies used the money for investment and job creation in the United States, as Congress intended. “There were no direct tracing requirements,” said Jay B. Schwartz, head of Merck’s international tax unit until 2006. “So once the money came home, it gave you great flexibility.”

Here is another article on the tax holiday for multinationals: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/11_13/b4221064108107.htm If you want to bring your money back, then bring it back and pay your taxes. I support Obama as much as it matters down here in Louisiana, but this right here has the potential to make me want to throw up if he allows it. These companies are already doing well. If they want to hire, then they should start hiring. Not hold our government at gun point. Holidays for all and no support for the plebs.
 
eznark said:
I would have to assume someone has asked about it before, what's been his response?

To call his victim a "monster." Perry is impervious to empirical evidence. Or is just willing to call an innocent guy he killed a monster in order to help protect himself politically. Perry is subhuman, and I don't say that lightly.
 
Hitokage said:
Chris Christie also showed a particular level of disinterest in considering innocence or even justice as a prosecutor.

of course. His interest was almost certainly in appearing "tough on crime" and parlaying that into a run for higher political office- not actually doing the "just" thing.
 

Chichikov

Member
Mortrialus said:
The Cameron Todd Willingham monstrosity of a death penalty is specifically why Rick Perry isn't someone I particularly disagree with, but someone I actually despise. This goes well beyond appointing Don Mcleroy as chairman of the Texas State Board of Education and embarrassing his state and the nation before the world at large. His complete and total disregard for science is abominable. I put him in the same category of complete and fatal idiocy as parents who refuse treatment for easily curable diseases because of their religious beliefs and let their children die. This man was presented with scientific evidence casting considerable doubt over the conclusion that this was even a murder and brushes it off saying "Herp derp science don't prove nothing" and did nothing about it. Not only that, years later when this debacle became apparent he intentionally went out of his way to impede the investigation of the Texas Forensic Science Commission.
I don't think it's about his views on science; I seriously doubt he even have an opinion about forensics.
It's about politics.
He didn't want to look "soft on crime" or be left open to be Willie Hortoned in the future.
And since he value his political career more than some random pleb's life he just let him die.


Dr. Pangloss said:
I am usually not an angry person. Hence the reason for my username, Dr. Pangloss the eternal optimist. But this right here has the potential to make me want to riot and just break something: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/20/business/20tax.html?pagewanted=all
Want to riot together?
Because I'm pretty sure this is going to happen.
 

besada

Banned
empty vessel said:
Perry is impervious to empirical evidence.

That's what the hair is for, to protect his brain from facts.

Edit: Haven't there only been two gubernatorial pardons since the death penalty was reinstated? Henry Lee Lucas and Kenneth Foster?

The system we use down here is designed to reduce gubernatorial pardons. After Ma and Pa Ferguson got caught selling pardons, the laws were changed to keep pardons out of the hands of the Governer. In Texas, to get a pardon, you have to apply, and then the Board of Pardons largely decides what happens. They don't even have to pass it up to the Governor, and he can't issue a pardon without a recommendation from them. Of course, the Governor appoints the board, and can fire and appoint with Senatorial approval, so it gets a little difficult to pin blame in any particular situation.

EV can probably correct me if I've misremembered any of the particulars.
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
Once again, Romney is the only GOP candidate that should, in the face of complete and utter stupidity/dishonesty on the part of the candidates, get the nomination.

Romney is far from perfect, as a candidate or politician, but he is their only chance to sway the rest of the country that aren't batshit insane to vote for a republican.
 
Chichikov said:
I don't think it's about his views on science; I seriously doubt he even have an opinion about forensics.
It's about politics.
He didn't want to look "soft on crime" or be left open to be Willie Hortoned in the future.
And since he value his political career more than some random pleb's life he just let him die.

This is the man who appointed Don "Somebody needs to stand up to the experts!" Mcleroy as chairman to the Texas State Board of Education. You don't get more anti science than that.
 

Chichikov

Member
Mortrialus said:
This is the man who appointed Don "Somebody needs to stand up to the experts!" Mcleroy as chairmen to the Texas State Board of Education. You don't get more anti science than that.
I of course agree that he's an anti-science idiot, I just don't think that his rejection of rational thought was the driving force behind his decisions in the Cameron Todd Willingham case.
 

LosDaddie

Banned
If Perry runs, then I think the GE is his to lose. Unemployment will still be high and Perry, like many conservatives, will point to the Texas economy as the shining beacon for Trickle Down economic success. Plus, Texas is already a virtual ATM for Repub candidates.


EDIT: d'oh!
 
LosDaddie said:
If Perry runs, then I think the GE is his to lose. Unemployment will still be high and Perry, like my conservatives, will point to the Texas economy as the shining beacon for Trickle Down economic success. Plus, Texas is already a virtual ATM for Repub candidates
Texas: Growing the American economy one minimum wage (that we don't think should exist) job at a time.
 

gcubed

Member
LosDaddie said:
If Perry runs, then I think the GE is his to lose. Unemployment will still be high and Perry, like my conservatives, will point to the Texas economy as the shining beacon for Trickle Down economic success. Plus, Texas is already a virtual ATM for Repub candidates

Perry is unknown to the rest of the populace, he wont be any better off then Romney.
 
Chichikov said:
I of course agree that he's an anti-science idiot, I just don't think that his rejection of rational thought was the driving force behind his decisions in the Cameron Todd Willingham case.

I agree that he puffs his chest out to look tough on crime, but he is clearly the kind of person who cannot rationally examine evidence and brushes off evidence that doesn't already fit into his already distressingly incorrect world view. He is a self confessed creationist after all and.
 
Mortrialus said:
I agree that he puffs his chest out to look tough on crime, but he is clearly the kind of person who cannot rationally examine evidence and brushes off evidence that doesn't already fit into his already distressingly incorrect world view. He is a self confessed creationist after all and.
In other words he's the perfect Texas governor
 

eznark

Banned
Invisible_Insane said:
Texas: Growing the American economy one minimum wage (that we don't think should exist) job at a time.

I don't think Obama wants to start discounting or dismissing McDonald's jobs.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
PhoenixDark said:
I'd love for him to win the nomination just to guarantee someone asks him a question about that on national television. Disgusting.

I doubt it would do much. Bush made fun of that Tucker lady, a born-again Christian no less, and nobody cared.
 
eznark said:
I don't think Obama wants to start discounting or dismissing McDonald's jobs.
And I'm not saying that he should. At the same time, we have to think about what it means for expenses incurred by the welfare state if the overwhelming proportion of the jobs behind the "Texas Miracle" are so poorly paying that people can't afford to meet their basic needs. And that's just one way to think about it. Someone who claims to value the middle class should know that $7.25/hr doesn't get you there.
 

Flo_Evans

Member
Chichikov said:
Want to riot together?
Because I'm pretty sure this is going to happen.

ugg. you have my sword.

Why the fuck would anyone agree to this? Oh hey we have massive budget shortfalls, massive unemployment, but lets give a break to these fuckers who are literally draining the collective wealth of the nation so they can add an extra layer to the money lining their pockets!

The older I get the more I realize politics is just a stupid diversion used by the true ruling class to keep the idiots at each others throats over bullshit "issues".

Oh look over there, some poor stupid person is not paying any federal income taxes on their 15k/year income! Meanwhile some huge multinational is avoiding millions in taxes.
 

gcubed

Member
The New York GOP is demanding Rep. Anthony Weiner return all the campaign cash he is still holding, declaring that keeping the money sends the "wrong signal about his intentions and motivations."

Before he announced his resignation from Congress last week, Weiner had raised more than $5.1 million for a potential New York City mayoral run in 2013.

"wrong signal about his intentions and motivations"

he's not sending the wrong signal, he is going to run for mayor.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/loca...gn-Cash-Fundraising-Donors-GOP-124202844.html
 

eznark

Banned
Oh man, I'm falling down the rabbit hole on this execution case in the spare minutes I have today. Why did he refuse a poligraph? (Not that it means anything, but shit if I were facing a needle I'd probably take the damn test on a lark even if I were guilty as shit).
 

Chichikov

Member
Flo_Evans said:
ugg. you have my sword.

Why the fuck would anyone agree to this? Oh hey we have massive budget shortfalls, massive unemployment, but lets give a break to these fuckers who are literally draining the collective wealth of the nation so they can add an extra layer to the money lining their pockets!

The older I get the more I realize politics is just a stupid diversion used by the true ruling class to keep the idiots at each others throats over bullshit "issues".

Oh look over there, some poor stupid person is not paying any federal income taxes on their 15k/year income! Meanwhile some huge multinational is avoiding millions in taxes.
Hey, just because it didn't work last time (in fact, pretty much all the criticisms leveled at that move in '05 had come true) that doesn't mean we can't try again.

The nerve those fuckers have for even trying this shit again so soon is infuriating.
 
pollolol. The findings may surprise you:

Dan Jones & Associates said:
Utah Senate

Jim Matheson (D) 47
Orrin Hatch (R-inc.) 47

Jim Matheson (D) 45
Jason Chaffetz (R) 46

Primary (among Republican voters)

Orrin Hatch 47
Jason Chaffetz 44
Matheson running for either Senate or Governor is a pretty strong possibility, given that his district (already R+15) will almost certainly get manhandled in redistricting, either by the Republicans (who want to split up Salt Lake City four ways), or Democrats (who want to make SLC its own district, and liable to elect a more liberal Democrat).

Matheson is fairly blue dog but I'd take him if it meant holding the Senate. Patty Murray should get on this.
 
Flo_Evans said:
The older I get the more I realize politics is just a stupid diversion used by the true ruling class to keep the idiots at each others throats over bullshit "issues".
I couldn't be with you more on this. Divide, distract and conquer.
 

coldvein

Banned
Flo_Evans said:
ugg. you have my sword.

The older I get the more I realize politics is just a stupid diversion used by the true ruling class to keep the idiots at each others throats over bullshit "issues".

and it's working so well! i almost got in a fistfight with my cousin last night due to our differing opinions on "the issues". and a bunch of alcohol.
 
empty vessel said:
To call his victim a "monster." Perry is impervious to empirical evidence. Or is just willing to call an innocent guy he killed a monster in order to help protect himself politically. Perry is subhuman, and I don't say that lightly.
Wow, an evangelical who ignores cold hard facts right in front of him and goes with his gut, who woulda thunk.

He won't win the nom, he'll just split the crazy vote with Bachmann like I said. Honestly, Perry entering the race makes either Romney or Huntsman more of a lock IMO.
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
LosDaddie said:
If Perry runs, then I think the GE is his to lose. Unemployment will still be high and Perry, like many conservatives, will point to the Texas economy as the shining beacon for Trickle Down economic success. Plus, Texas is already a virtual ATM for Repub candidates.

That type of stuff isn't going to fly with the general election independent voters, I think.
 

Cyan

Banned
polyh3dron said:
He won't win the nom, he'll just split the crazy vote with Bachmann like I said. Honestly, Perry entering the race makes either Romney or Huntsman more of a lock IMO.
We can only hope. Can't stand Perry or Bachmann. Ugh.
 

Jackson50

Member
eznark said:
I'm not making a value judgement, I just think he is someone that the GOP base will love.
Furthermore, he is a candidate the establishment and interest groups would support. Thus, he would instantly devastate Pawlenty's candidacy. Moreover, he would prove the greatest challenge to Romney. Still, I think a contest between him and Romney would be close. His announcement would be momentous.
empty vessel said:
Cameron Willingham. He's been trying to cover it up ever since.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/09/07/090907fa_fact_grann
A captivating if not slightly macabre story. And it is shameful.
 
polyh3dron said:
I want nothing more than to see Bachmann get the nom. The debates between her and Obama would be the funniest shit ever.
But that would mean she is one step closer to getting the nuke launch codes. 47 million people voted for McCain-Palin over Obama-Biden. Never forget.
 

Cyan

Banned
RustyNails said:
But that would mean she is one step closer to getting the nuke launch codes. 47 million people voted for McCain-Palin over Obama-Biden. Never forget.
Exactly. Even if the chances of Bachmann actually winning the general are significantly lower than, say, Romney's chances, the expected value of a Bachmann-Obama election is bargain basement low. Bachmann winning the presidency would be a complete disaster.
 
Cyan said:
Exactly. Even if the chances of Bachmann actually winning the general are significantly lower than, say, Romney's chances, the expected value of a Bachmann-Obama election is bargain basement low. Bachmann winning the presidency would be a complete disaster.
Understatement of the year I'd say, and there's still half a year left to go.
 
Poll: More say 'blame the GOP' if debt ceiling deal isn't reached
(CNN) – As Vice President Joe Biden continues to hold discussions around Capitol Hill on the budget, deficit and debt ceiling, a survey released Monday says more Americans would blame his opposing party if a deal isn't reached.

According to a new Pew/Washington Post poll, 42 percent of Americans say Republicans in Congress would be to blame if the debt limit is not raised and the federal government isn't able to borrow more money to fund its operations.

One-third say the Obama administration, including Biden, would be to blame.


Those who identify with Democrats or Republicans blame the opposite side of the aisle. Almost sixty percent of Republicans say the Obama administration would be responsible if both sides can't agree and 72 percent of Democrats say the fault would be on Republicans.

Independents find themselves in the middle - split over the issue of who is responsible for the failure of a debt ceiling deal. Since 36 percent say Republicans would be to blame and 34 percent place blame on the Democrats' shoulders, the two-point margin falls within the poll's sampling error and independents of either opinion are statistically tied. Seventeen percent say both sides would share responsibility.

The Pew Research Center/Washington Post poll was conducted via telephone from June 16-19 among 1,003 adults. It has a sampling error of plus or minus four percentage points.
SHUT 'ER DOWN!

Teabag loonies like Bachmann definitely helped push GOP's numbers on this issue. She flat out said to Wolf Blitzer that she has a "No" vote for raising the debt ceiling, at least, for now.
 
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