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[Alpha-Bromega]

uh, yeah? CEO's shouldn't get huge bonuses while at the same time lay off thousands or freeze wages. and forget the Russian oligarchs, we are talking about the American oligarchs

 

[Chichikov]

Really, now? Where would you say the vast wealth that is being "sat upon" was made in last 20 years? I would say, for the most part, it was internet companies and companies on Wall Street (Russian oligarchs excluded, of course). Are you suggesting that those companies should have paid their employees more, rather than paying it, for example, in CEO bonuses?

Yes, I think that all those companies should reward the people doing the real work, no executives and investors.
But that's kinda beside the point that is being debated here.

 

[Kosmo]

Yes, I think that all those companies should reward the people doing the real work, no executives and investors.
But that's kinda beside the point that is being debated here.

It's not, unless you endorse is trickle down economics. The only people that would have benefited would have been the people that work directly for that company, which are not the people that people like EV are saying are the ones being the most hurt.

Yes, I think that all those companies should reward the people doing the real work, no executives and investors.
But that's kinda beside the point that is being debated here.

Look, I'm not suggesting that CEO's are not overpaid, but you can't say the impact of their decisions, literally affect 1000's of employees, are not important and worth being rewarded. Case in point: Alan Mullaly.

 

[Manmademan]

Yes, I think that all those companies should reward the people doing the real work, no executives and investors.
But that's kinda beside the point that is being debated here.

here I sort of disagree. It's not really the position of the government to dictate how salaries are distributed.

If Company X wants to grossly overpay it's CEO and pay labor minimum wage it's free to do so (and face the consequences of workers unionizing,etc) , but that CEO should be taxed fairly on his income, and I don't think that's been taking place.

 

[Cyan]

here I sort of disagree. It's not really the position of the government to dictate how salaries are distributed.

Sure, but it's possible to say "companies should reward the people doing the real work, no executives and investors" and not support the government mandating such.

 

[empty vessel]

Really, now? Where would you say the vast wealth that is being "sat upon" was made in last 20 years? I would say, for the most part, it was internet companies and companies on Wall Street (Russian oligarchs excluded, of course). Are you suggesting that those companies should have paid their employees more, rather than paying it, for example, in CEO bonuses?

It's not about what is being "sat upon." The country's economy generates X amount of earned income in a year. That X amount gets distributed amongst all people. The more that the richest take for themselves--and these are typically corporate executives--the less income is available for distribution to others. Over the last thirty years, everybody but the top 5% has lost ground. That translates to lost income, which has been redirected from the middle and poor classes to the top 1%. See:

http://books.google.com/books?id=oQ...&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[Chichikov]

It's not, unless you endorse is trickle down economics.

Do you think that trickle down works?
Honest question.

The only people that would have benefited would have been the people that work directly for that company

And that's a bad thing?
Rewarding people for the work they do is a negative to you?

which are not the people that people like EV are saying are the ones being the most hurt.

Wait what?
I'm pretty sure empty vessel is not talking about the investor class here.

here I sort of disagree. It's not really the position of the government to dictate how salaries are distributed.

If Company X wants to grossly overpay it's CEO and pay labor minimum wage it's free to do so (and face the consequences of workers unionizing,etc) , but that CEO should be taxed fairly on his income, and I don't think that's been taking place.

I never said that the government should be in the business of setting hard caps on executive pay (I think shareholders should do this, but that's a whole different discussion).
But, I also think that said executive pay is completely out of whack in the US and it causes tangible harm to our society.
And I think we can affect this with our tax policies.

 

[Manmademan]

Sure, but it's possible to say "companies should reward the people doing the real work, no executives and investors" and not support the government mandating such.

Here I agree with you.

From personal experience, I've seen way too many boneheaded business decisions made to placate investors, or to inflate quarterly results rather than doing what makes sense in the long term.

Layoffs are a big part of that. It's easy to reduce operating expenses in the short term by cutting staff (which would naturally result in a stock price hike) and speculator/investors love this since it guarantees quick returns, and CEO's get bonuses when they do things that cater to that crowd.

Long term though, running your staff ragged and overworked is a bad idea.

Most companies are sitting on record profits right now but aren't doing any hiring, and I think that sort of thinking is a big reason why.

 

[Kosmo]

Do you think that trickle down works?
Honest question.

Nope, not the any large degree. That does note mean I'm into wealth redistribution either.

And that's a bad thing?
Rewarding people for the work they do is a negative to you?

Wait what?
I'm pretty sure empty vessel is not talking about the investor class here.

No, he's talking about people that are not in any way associated with the companies that created that wealth being affected. I think you would be hard pressed to find people who worked for companies that generated massive wealth for their CEOs (Microsoft, Goldman, etc.) who complained about their salary. The Enron's and Worldcom's of the world aside, where crazy illegal shit was going down.

 

[mckmas8808]

What makes you think this is true?
Surely, it can't be his track record in the White House or even the senate.

.

Well the Health care bill should be the first place you'd look to see that proof.

 

[Chichikov]

Long term though, running your staff ragged and overworked is a bad idea.

But most executives don't give a shit about the long term anyway.

And why would they?

1. Get a good quarterly result (fudge the numbers if you have to)
2. Get a massive bonus
3. (personal) profit!!!
4. ????

Well the Health care bill should be the first place you'd look to see that proof.

In what way?

 

[PantherLotus]

Only Enron and Worldcomm are the problem, guys.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Nope, not the any large degree. That does note mean I'm into wealth redistribution either.



No, he's talking about people that are not in any way associated with the companies that created that wealth being affected. I think you would be hard pressed to find people who worked for companies that generated massive wealth for their CEOs (Microsoft, Goldman, etc.) who complained about their salary. The Enron's and Worldcom's of the world aside, where crazy illegal shit was going down.

I get paid good money at a fortune 500 company. Record profits last year. Lowest wage increases in 45 years.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I get paid good money at a fortune 500 company. Record profits last year. Lowest wage increases in 45 years.

I work for a Fortune 100 company. Record profits last year (and this year). Below average wage increase, and with benefits cut during the recession made permenant.

Kosmo's cherry-picked responses are just furthering his decent into self-parody.

 

[Chichikov]

I think you would be hard pressed to find people who worked for companies that generated massive wealth for their CEOs (Microsoft, Goldman, etc.) who complained about their salary. The Enron's and Worldcom's of the world aside, where crazy illegal shit was going down.

Really?
You think everyone at Microsoft is happy about their salary?
Like, seriously?
That's some crazy ass fantasy world you live in.

This is factually false beyond words.
Trust me, I live in Seattle.

 

[PantherLotus]

This is news to you guys? You're arguing with someone defending CEO salaries. Facts are not what you need. What you need is a bigger fucking font.

 

[Manmademan]

But most executives don't give a shit about the long term anyway.

And why would they?

1. Get a good quarterly result (fudge the numbers if you have to)
2. Get a massive bonus
3. (personal) profit!!!
4. ????

exactly. I think through tax policy we can discourage the overemphasis on quarterly performance as a shareholder metric (say, high taxes on short term capital gains, much lower taxes on long term capital gains), and also discourage grossly overpaying CEOs through smarter tax policy also.

as it is, we've been using tax policy to reward this kind of behavior and it's clearly not working.

 

[TacticalFox88]

Did I just read that right? If you work for Microsoft or a multinational company you can't complain about your salary? My mind is full of fuck.

 

[empty vessel]

No, he's talking about people that are not in any way associated with the companies that created that wealth being affected. I think you would be hard pressed to find people who worked for companies that generated massive wealth for their CEOs (Microsoft, Goldman, etc.) who complained about their salary. The Enron's and Worldcom's of the world aside, where crazy illegal shit was going down.

No, I'm talking about the working rich. Corporate executives, primarily.

 

[Kosmo]

Did I just read that right? If you work for Microsoft or a multinational company you can't complain about your salary? My mind is full of fuck.

No, you didn't read that right.

 

[mckmas8808]

In what way?

The less money people have to spend on health insurance and cost, the more they'll have in personal spending and savings.

 

[GaimeGuy]

I work for a Fortune 100 company. Record profits last year (and this year). Below average wage increase, and with benefits cut during the recession made permenant.

Kosmo's cherry-picked responses are just furthering his decent into self-parody.

yep :/

 

[PantherLotus]

Yet another conservative defending CEO salaries that thinks that not only are those salaries fair, but anyone working for one of them (other than the ones doing "crazy illegal shit") are and should be pleased with their own stagnating salary.

Rather than use facts, this conservative makes up shit based on a corrupt philosphy, trying to make sense of "what sounds right." You'll never convince this person he's wrong -- you'll only convince him that he's surrounded by misinformed, lamestream-media-reading socialists.

The best part of this entire nonsense is that this person has clearly never worked a day in his life. Oh, I'm sure working for daddy's-little-startup or baling hay or "i'm a business owner!" wil be the response, but this sort of delusion about how people feel and what the majority of Americans have gone through over the past several decades can only come from someone so far removed from reality that they could only be a sheltered loser with absolutely zero exposure to reality.

 

[Evlar]

Remember when Kosmo was a concern-troll Obama voter who had become disillusioned by his in-office performance? I do.

 

[PantherLotus]

Remember when Kosmo was a concern-troll Obama voter who had become disillusioned by his in-office performance? I do.

Me too, but I'd prefer quotes for hopefully obvious purposes.

 

[Manmademan]

Yet another conservative defending CEO salaries that thinks that not only are those salaries fair, but anyone working for one of them (other than the ones doing "crazy illegal shit") are and should be pleased with their own stagnating salary.

Rather than use facts, this conservative makes up shit based on a corrupt philosphy, trying to make sense of "what sounds right." You'll never convince this person he's wrong -- you'll only convince him that he's surrounded by misinformed, lamestream-media-reading socialists.

The best part of this entire nonsense is that this person has clearly never worked a day in his life. Oh, I'm sure working for daddy's-little-startup or baling hay or "i'm a business owner!" wil be the response, but this sort of delusion about how people feel and what the majority of Americans have gone through over the past several decades can only come from someone so far removed from reality that they could only be a sheltered loser with absolutely zero exposure to reality.

I'm not entirely enamored with the guy, but we could at least keep it civil, PL.

 

[PantherLotus]

I'm not entirely enamored with the guy, but we could at least keep it civil, PL.

You tell me which part is uncivil and I'll tell you how I can improve it.

 

[Clevinger]

^not calling him a delusional, sheltered loser, maybe?^

Remember when Kosmo was a concern-troll Obama voter who had become disillusioned by his in-office performance? I do.

Wait, what's this? I must have not been reading the thread at the time.

 

[Manmademan]

You tell me which part is uncivil and I'll tell you how I can improve it.

"loser" seems like namecalling, but the rest I'm ambivalent about

 

[eznark]

You tell me which part is uncivil and I'll tell you how I can improve it.

Only a reclusive, self-absorbed, socially awkward addle brain would have difficulty sussing out the uncivil portion of your comments!

Or you know, a Royals fan

 

[mckmas8808]

Wait, what's this? I must have not been reading the thread at the time.

Yeah you sound as shocked as I was when reading that.

 

[Kosmo]

Yet another conservative defending CEO salaries that thinks that not only are those salaries fair, but anyone working for one of them (other than the ones doing "crazy illegal shit") are and should be pleased with their own stagnating salary.

Rather than use facts, this conservative makes up shit based on a corrupt philosphy, trying to make sense of "what sounds right." You'll never convince this person he's wrong -- you'll only convince him that he's surrounded by misinformed, lamestream-media-reading socialists.

The best part of this entire nonsense is that this person has clearly never worked a day in his life. Oh, I'm sure working for daddy's-little-startup or baling hay or "i'm a business owner!" wil be the response, but this sort of delusion about how people feel and what the majority of Americans have gone through over the past several decades can only come from someone so far removed from reality that they could only be a sheltered loser with absolutely zero exposure to reality.

LOL, worked my way through a bachelor's and a doctorate and currently taking advantage of my company's tuition reimbursement policy to get my MBA (Bolded and highlighted for you, since you will no doubt quote it - too predictable) and have worked since I had a paper route at 12. Unfortunately, daddy's little start-up was working an hourly job for 33 years in an auto plant - must have been the one who instilled an actual work ethic in me.

You really have no fucking clue. Carry on.

Wait, what's this? I must have not been reading the thread at the time.

I never voted for Obama, nor stated as such.

 

[PantherLotus]

Oh I called him a loser. Rather than realizing you're arguing with a one-way tape recording of the last Mike Savage show, you're worried about whether I called him a "sheltered loser" or a "delusional, sheltered loser."

I have an idea: don't argue with inanimate objects.

 

[Chichikov]

The less money people have to spend on health insurance and cost, the more they'll have in personal spending and savings.

Do you really think that this healthcare bill can stop or even significantly slow down the transfer of wealth in this country?

I'm not saying that Obama tries to fuck the poor, I'm saying that he had done nothing that would suggest to me that he thinks that the wealth gap in this country is a serious issue that need to be addressed.

Remember when Kosmo was a concern-troll Obama voter who had become disillusioned by his in-office performance? I do.

That can't be true.

 

[PantherLotus]

LOL, worked my way through a bachelor's and a doctorate and currently taking advantage of my company's tuition reimbursement policy to get my MBA (Bolded and highlighted for you, since you will no doubt quote it - too predictable) and have worked since I had a paper route at 12. Unfortunately, daddy's little start-up was working an hourly job for 33 years in an auto plant - must have been the one who instilled an actual work ethic in me.

You really have no fucking clue. Carry on.

Wow, I was totally out of line and I apologize, Kosmo.

Now that I know your background, I know you have no fucking excuse to think the way you do. Congrats on the MBA, though. That'll come in handy on your way up to that lower-level management position you've been aiming for. (btw -- I'm going for my MBA too! what's my excuse?)

 

[eznark]

Oh, I'm sure working for daddy's-little-startup or baling hay or "i'm a business owner!"

oh my God I've done all of these!

 

[Loudninja]

Blago Convicted Of Trying To Sell Obama's Senate Seat

A Chicago jury has found former Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich guilty of 17 of the 20 charges in his corruption trial.

Earlier Monday the jury announced that it had reached a decision in 18 of the 20 charges, but remained deadlocked on two.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsme...f_trying_to_sell_obamas_senate_su.php?ref=fpa

 

[PantherLotus]

oh my God I've done all of these!

I know.




(you and many of my just-outside-the-suburbs friends of mine are all too predictable)

 

[Manmademan]

Oh I called him a loser. Rather than realizing you're arguing with a one-way tape recording of the last Mike Savage show, you're worried about whether I called him a "sheltered loser" or a "delusional, sheltered loser."

I have an idea: don't argue with inanimate objects.

I'm saying it sounds like little more than namecalling, which it is, and I could live without it. Raise the level of discourse.

Dismantling any poorly thought out arguments he might throw out is easy enough to do that there's no excuse to go there.

 

[Chichikov]

You tell me which part is uncivil and I'll tell you how I can improve it.

The part were you make guesses and assumptions about his life.
You don't know it, he can't prove it, and it will contribute nothing to this thread.

 

[Kosmo]

oh my God I've done all of these!

LOL - PantherLotus just threw every kid of a farmer under the buss.

 

[eznark]

I know.

I'm such a failure, God damn farmers and entrepreneurs are ruining this great nation!

LOL - PantherLotus just threw every kid of a farmer under the buss.

Pretty sure those were specifically aimed at me. Your quixiotic attempts whilst surely valiant are kind of stale today. Maybe take an hour off?

 

[GhaleonEB]

Blago Convicted Of Trying To Sell Obama's Senate Seat

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsme...f_trying_to_sell_obamas_senate_su.php?ref=fpa

He now faces up to 350 years in prison.​

:lol

 

[PantherLotus]

Well at least Kosmo escaped having to defend the nonsense about working class cube jockeys appreciating their stagnating salaries because the non-criminal CEOs really earned them. Thank me later, Kos.

 

[TacticalFox88]

Wow, I had totally forgotten about Blago. How time flies, eh?

 

[Chichikov]

LOL - PantherLotus just threw every kid of a farmer under the buss.

Well, I baled hay and was thrown under a bus (well, more in front than under really).
So there.

Well at least Kosmo escaped having to defend the nonsense about working class cube jockeys appreciating their stagnating salaries because the non-criminal CEOs really earned them. Thank me later, Kos.

And who provided him this easy out?
And what did we learn from that?

hint:

Spoiler

personal attacks are ineffective.

 

[PantherLotus]

Yet another conservative defending CEO salaries that thinks that not only are those salaries fair, but anyone working for one of them (other than the ones doing "crazy illegal shit") are and should be pleased with their own stagnating salary.

Rather than use facts, this conservative makes up shit based on a corrupt philosphy, trying to make sense of "what sounds right." You'll never convince this person he's wrong -- you'll only convince him that he's surrounded by misinformed, lamestream-media-reading socialists.

The best part of this entire nonsense is that this person has clearly never worked a day in his life. Oh, I'm sure working for daddy's-little-startup or baling hay or "i'm a business owner!" wil be the response, but this sort of delusion about how people feel and what the majority of Americans have gone through over the past several decades can only come from someone so far removed from reality that they could only be a sheltered loser with absolutely zero exposure to reality.

Lawrence O'Donnell just contacted me with his re-write of the last ph. Here goes:

It's hard to imagine how a person with experience in the work-a-day world, putting themselves through school, working their asses off, trying to get ahead can possibly come up with some of these theories. My only hope is that he comes to better conclusions on his own, rather than finding these tough realizations the hard way.

 

[mckmas8808]

Do you really think that this healthcare bill can stop or even significantly slow down the transfer of wealth in this country?

I'm not saying that Obama tries to fuck the poor, I'm saying that he had done nothing that would suggest to me that he thinks that the wealth gap in this country is a serious issue that need to be addressed.

In a perfect world yeah. But we'll never know because many different bills are passed that it'll be hard to see.

For instance if the Bush tax cuts are extended again, how clear would it be that the health care bill wouldn't have closed that gap a little?

 

[Ether_Snake]

It's not, unless you endorse is trickle down economics. The only people that would have benefited would have been the people that work directly for that company, which are not the people that people like EV are saying are the ones being the most hurt.



Look, I'm not suggesting that CEO's are not overpaid, but you can't say the impact of their decisions, literally affect 1000's of employees, are not important and worth being rewarded. Case in point: Alan Mullaly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_pay

Executive pay is financial compensation received by an officer of a firm, often as a mixture of salary, bonuses, shares of and/or call options on the company stock, etc. Over the past three decades, executive pay has risen dramatically beyond the rising levels of an average worker's wage.[1] Executive pay is an important part of corporate governance, and is often determined by a company's board of directors.

Defenders of high executive pay say that the global war for talent and the rise of private equity firms can explain much of the increase in executive pay. For example, while in conservative Japan a senior executive has few alternatives to his current employer, in the United States it is acceptable and even admirable for a senior executive to jump to a competitor, to a private equity firm, or to a private equity portfolio company. Portfolio company executives take a pay cut but are routinely granted stock options for ownership of ten percent of the portfolio company, contingent on a successful tenure. Rather than signaling a conspiracy, defenders argue, the increase in executive pay is a mere byproduct of supply and demand for executive talent. However, U.S. executives make substantially more than their European and Asian counterparts.[13]

The U.S. stood first in the world in 2005 with a ratio of 39:1 CEO's compensation to pay of manufacturing production workers. Britain second with 31.8:1; Italy third with 25.9:1, New Zealand fourth with 24.9:1.

There is plenty wrong with executive pay in the US, and a lot of room for improvement.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2008/11/15/GR2008111500247.html

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

Eh, government dictating salaries of CEOs is going a bit too far. More bargaining power and a stronger union of workers is what's needed.