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[Bonen no Max'd]

Grover Cleveland (possibly best)

Trying to press your gold standard agenda on an unsuspecting youth, I'm onto you!

 

[Ogodei]

Huh, it's been a long time since i've run into someone suggest that Grover Cleveland was the last righteous president, though i've seen the argument before.

 

[Basileus777]

If you think it's due to how they handled the Bush admin, I disagree. What's happened is that conservatives have gotten to the point where they literally refuse to read or watch news that says facts they don't like (where as liberals are shown to consume a much more moderated mix of stuff).

It also was made worse by the fact that in a desperate attempt to get Fox New's audience, you had CNN doing more and more CNN Crossfire panel bullshit where they have "both sides" for fucking everything.



a) I think that the Arab Spring was something that was bubbling up there for decades because for too long nations there only had secular dictatorships and theocracies as options. And the reason that I say Iraq would have been part of that Arab Spring is they had a secular dictatorship too.

b) I don't think we should LIE about why we are going into a nation (like Bush did), but seeing how long Turkey managed to remain a secular democracy I would say that there is absolutely benefit to turning middle eastern nations into secular democracies. Now as to OBLIGATION? Obviously we were not obligated in 2003, but I would say that around 2011-2013 it was pretty damn obvious that the people were saying that they wanted democracy and for that reason I think we had somewhat of an obligation to actually help them achieve that rather than just take out the leader and then ditch them (in the case of Libya) or make some bullshit statement about some "red line" to try to avoid getting involved (in the case of Syria).

c) The international laws thing doesn't make sense because I'm pretty sure we had international backing when it came to getting involved in Libya.

And just so I am clear. I'm not justifying getting involved in Iraq in 2003. I am saying that due to events that happened by 2011 we probably would have already started to get involved in Iraq by now.



Probably a pretty high number still considering that most of the refugees are the result of dictators suppressing the Arab Spring protests that happened due to factors that had been bubbling up for decades.



No, instead Trump will hit that bodycount just from passing the AHCA.

Andrew Jackson is ok because eh someone else would have genocided those Indians anyway.

 

[Ogodei]

Jackson gets points for promoting all-male franchise (e.g., regardless of class barriers), something it would take other countries decades to a century (Japan didn't do all-male franchise until 1930, the Brits i think it was 1920 or so) to achieve

 

[Host Samurai]

The Andrew Jackson stories are insane. He murdered people right in front of the WH. Dude was a monster,but that was probably the norm back than.

 

[benjipwns]

crap, I forgot William Henry Harrison and James A. Garfield in my post, one top tier and one second tier President at worst for sure

Harrison even died on my birthday (I assume as a present)

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

No, instead Trump will hit that bodycount just from passing the AHCA.

Thank you. I really wish more people would call a spade a spade when it comes to countries dragging their feet on healthcare. A few weeks ago, a foreign actor I knew of was driven to suicide because he couldn't pay for care after being in an accident.

 

[BlastProcessing]

Jeff Sessions will testify before the Senate Intelligence Committee on Tuesday; not sure if that's public or private though:

This Twitter thread explains how this is Sessions' play to avoid public accountability.

He's trying to swap an open hearing where he could be asked anything for a closed hearing on more limited subjects. The issues of the parameters of his recusal and obstruction of justice are the jurisdiction of the Judiciary Committee. Sessions is trying to duck those questions and duck the committee that actually oversees his actions.

 

[SomewhatGroovy]

Why do people believe Comey committed perjury again?

 

[Wilsongt]

Why do people believe Comey committed perjury again?

Conservatives.

 

[SomewhatGroovy]

Conservatives.

Do they inherently hold law degrees?

 

[Wilsongt]

Do they inherently hold law degrees?

Armchair lawyers when it means they don't want to hear something negative about things they cherish.

You could see it all over Fox when the talking heads pulled out some law that Comey committed a felony by not telling the DoJ Trump tried to obstruct justice.

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

POLL: Americans Trust James Comey Over Trump

Americans largely believe that former FBI director James Comey is more trustworthy than President Donald Trump, a new HuffPost/YouGov poll finds, although his testimony did little to change minds about the seriousness of the relationship between the White House and Russia.

In a Senate Intelligence Committee hearing on Thursday, Comey directly questioned the president's candor in explaining why he kept detailed records of their conversations. ”I was honestly concerned he might lie about the nature of our meeting," Comey said, ”so I thought it important to document."

By a 20-point margin, 46 percent to 26 percent, Americans say Comey is more honest and trustworthy than Trump, with the remainder unsure.

Similar shares of the public hold favorable views of both men: 38 percent for Trump, and 35 percent for Comey. But Trump's unfavorables, at 53 percent percent, are significantly higher than Comey's, at just 33 percent.

 

[Electric Eye]

Armchair lawyers when it means they don't want to hear something negative about things they cherish.

You could see it all over Fox when the talking heads pulled out some law that Comey committed a felony by not telling the DoJ Trump tried to obstruct justice.

That's fine though because they also conned Trump into believing the narrative along with Sessions who seems embolden enough to testify. When the adults start coming after them though they are gonna be in complete shock and watch as they skirm and cry out " bu..but my lawyer and fox and friends said..." as the reality of what is happening hits them.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Jackson gets points for promoting all-male franchise (e.g., regardless of class barriers), something it would take other countries decades to a century (Japan didn't do all-male franchise until 1930, the Brits i think it was 1920 or so) to achieve

All-white male franchise*

But yes, that was literally the one good thing from his presidency.

 

[Macho Madness]

POLL: Americans Trust James Comey Over Trump

Also from that poll

 

[neurosisxeno]

Also from that poll

So the most important issues to voters are likely the things Trump is going to fuck up the worst. The Economy is debatable, but with a deregulation spree I expect some market crashes here and there.

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

More people caring about Healthcare than Russia seems about right. More people will be harm from Healthcare than Trump's connection to Russia.

 

[TestOfTide]

Also from that poll

Oh look at that. Healthcare is a really important issue.

I wonder how that 45% would react if the GOP fucked with their healthcare and caused them to lose healthcare coverage?

Spoiler

I'm on my laptop so I can't do the "hmmmmm" emoji

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Jesus, benji, that is the most curious post in history, on virtually every level.

 

[Mr.Shrugglesツ]

Why do people believe Comey committed perjury again?

Because somehow people trust trump

 

[pigeon]

How can Tyler be the best president when he was never actually president

 

[neurosisxeno]

Jesus, benji, that is the most curious post in history, on virtually every level.

It's pretty par for the course if you know Benji.

 

[B-Dubs]

Jesus, benji, that is the most curious post in history, on virtually every level.

Come on, it's no Space Moors. Or Timecube.

It's pretty par for the course if you know Benji.

I feel like he's hitting his stride again.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

All-white male franchise*

But yes, that was literally the one good thing from his presidency.

One of the theories of "why no socialist party in America" is that Jackson fucked up early working class organizing by giving poor white men the right to vote too early for them to organize around it.

Of course it's one of like eight hundred ideas about this so you can take or leave it. I also imagine this makes you support it more

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

It's pretty par for the course if you know Benji.

I know benji, but that's a lot of work for trolling.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

I know benji, but that's a lot of work for trolling.

Benji doesn't troll, he offers alternative discourse

 

[Y2Kev]

Healthcare repeal will have a disproportionate effect on poor people who are already the least likely to vote. I really think there will be minor blowback. I think McConnell knows it too, obviously, which is why he's calculated that the general rage from poor people dying in the streets will be less than the rage from activated Republican voters not getting what they have been told they want.

 

[benjipwns]

How can Tyler be the best president when he was never actually president

At least somebody is making serious thoughtful posts in this thread. Thank you, pigeon.

 

[Plinko]

Bernie: "The current model and the current strategy of the Democratic Party is an absolute failure."

This guy is a clown.

 

[Suikoguy]

Benji doesn't troll, he offers alternative discourse

Is that like Alternative Facts?

This guy is a clown.

I'm not surprised, he wants to create a party in his own image.
Nothing will be good enough for him unless he builds it from scratch.

 

[Mr.Shrugglesツ]

This guy is a clown.

In the past decade they have lost all three branches of government, and a huge swath of governorships.

and donald fucking trump is in the white house.

He's not wrong.

 

[Autodidact]

This guy is a clown.

Yet another reason I want ***~~~NEOLIBERAL SHILL~~~*** Ossoff to win. Bernie will never shut up but will perhaps lower his volume for five minutes when he sees what type of candidates actually win.

I should stop being naive.

In the past decade they have lost all three branches of government, and a huge swath of governorships.

and donald fucking trump is in the white house.

He's not wrong.

How is the "Democratic model" responsible for the racist backlash that got them slaughtered in 2010 and 2014?

 

[Kusagari]

Yet another reason I want ***~~~NEOLIBERAL SHILL~~~*** Ossoff to win. Bernie will never shut up but will perhaps lower his volume for five minutes when he sees what type of candidates actually win.

I should stop being naive.

Even though he took forever to do it, Bernie did ultimately endorse him. So he'll just claim victory anyway.

 

[metalslimer]

In the past decade they have lost all three branches of government, and a huge swath of governorships.

and donald fucking trump is in the white house.

He's not wrong.

Did you miss the word current?

 

[Chumley]

Jeff Sessions will testify before the Senate Intelligence Committee on Tuesday; not sure if that's public or private though:

Trump is digging his own grave by sending his people out like this.

The best case scenario is nothing changes, the worst case scenario is he gives Mueller more ammunition. All because Trump lives in the moment from headline to headline. With how bad he is at all of this, I'd be surprised if it takes more than a year for the investigation to reach a conclusion and charge him with all kinds of shit.

 

[Suikoguy]

Did you miss the word current?

It was even in there twice

 

[Mr.Shrugglesツ]

Did you miss the word current?

No?

Dems are still pushing hard against a change.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

This guy is a clown.

At what point do we realize he isn't saying this for Dems, but for personal gain?

 

[Suikoguy]

No?

Dems are still pushing hard against a change.

[citation needed]

 

[benjipwns]

By the by, that Spoils of War book makes the argument that George Washington's motivations for involving himself with the revolutionaries were due to his status as a real estate speculator, something he shared with others like Jefferson in that they all had potential wealth tied up in as yet non-titled lands that the King was going to claim for the crown to distribute per custom.

I saw this argument before for others like Hancock, Franklin, etc., but never Washington despite his relentless acquiring of land all over the place that was nowhere near settlement. (That's why he and Jefferson were infamously "broke" coming out of the White House, both took all their profits and used it to buy more land unlike their northern counterparts who were more invested in standard short term returns.)

In one case, Washington offered his "services" as a former surveyor to men in his unit from the French and Indian Wars to negotiate their land grant (which was the payment for their military service) only for his men to find that he had oddly deeded all the good land to himself rather than parceling it out in standard size and shape chunks.

I love it.

Article that looks like it was copy and pasted onto a fake institute that's really just a tax shelter website about the various founders and their real estate endeavors that has much of this in it: http://lehrmaninstitute.org/history/founders-land.html

Andrew Jackson got rich the same way: http://www.politico.com/magazine/st...ade-a-killing-in-real-estate-119727_full.html

And obviously, we have the Wars with Mexico and Spain.

God Bless America.

 

[neurosisxeno]

Economics was the primary motivation for the American Revolution.

 

[benjipwns]

There's also the fact that had Parliament called their bluff and granted them a proper number of seats the colonies would have gotten like a third of the seats and control over Parliament. Which was obviously a non-starter.

In one of the colonists earlier demands they even make the argument that were the British to grant representation, it wouldn't be true representation as the time to travel back and forth was too great so their interests could never be represented promptly in Parliament.

It's funny when you look back at some of the lengths we humans have always gone to in order to always appear the aggrieved party.

 

[BlastProcessing]

Trump is digging his own grave by sending his people out like this.

The best case scenario is nothing changes, the worst case scenario is he gives Mueller more ammunition. All because Trump lives in the moment from headline to headline. With how bad he is at all of this, I'd be surprised if it takes more than a year for the investigation to reach a conclusion and charge him with all kinds of shit.

This isn't Sessions being sent out. This is Sessions hiding.

 

[Tarydax]

This guy is a clown.

Well, coming from him, that is kind of funny. Clowns are supposed to make you laugh, right?

...

Bernie gets major control over the Democratic platform even though he lost the primary by millions of votes, he gets his own unity tour, he becomes the new outreach chair, and yet he keeps shitting on the Democratic Party. Nothing but absolute control will ever be enough for him. I wish O'Malley would have done to Bernie what Christie did to Rubio. The Democratic Party would be better for it.

 

[TestOfTide]

In the past decade they have lost all three branches of government, and a huge swath of governorships.

and donald fucking trump is in the white house.

He's not wrong.

If he had said the strategy of the Democrats in 2010 through 2016, I would have disagreed with 2012 but I otherwise would have agreed.

But today? The fuck? The democrats aren't even running the same strategy as last year.

2006, 2008, and 2012 were huge successes for Dems and anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't know what they were are talking about.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

Bernie gets major control over the Democratic platform even though he lost the primary by millions of votes, he gets his own unity tour, he becomes the new outreach chair, and yet he keeps shitting on the Democratic Party. Nothing but absolute control will ever be enough for him. I wish O'Malley would have done to Bernie what Christie did to Rubio. The Democratic Party would be better for it.

You could give Bernregard complete control and he would still say this. It's about preserving his "independent" status and not being the "establishment." Partially the reason he'd be a terrible leader IMO.

 

[tuxfool]

You could give Bernregard complete control and he would still say this. It's about preserving his "independent" status and not being the "establishment." Partially the reason he'd be a terrible leader IMO.

"Bernie Sanders' worst enemy is Bernie Sanders"

 

[KirbYuuYuu]

This guy is a clown.

He seems humble

 

[Mr.Shrugglesツ]

Well, coming from him, that is kind of funny. Clowns are supposed to make you laugh, right?

...

Bernie gets major control over the Democratic platform even though he lost the primary by millions of votes, he gets his own unity tour, he becomes the new outreach chair, and yet he keeps shitting on the Democratic Party. Nothing but absolute control will ever be enough for him. I wish O'Malley would have done to Bernie what Christie did to Rubio. The Democratic Party would be better for it.

Well isn't that the issue. Democrats are cowards, and don't step up.