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PoliGAF 2017 |OT3| 13 Treasons Why

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B

BlackGhost

Banned
DrForester said:
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Is this a world domination plan?
 
D

dramatis

Member
'March Against Sharia' Planned Across The U.S.
Saturday's nationwide "March Against Sharia," sponsored by a group known for aggressively criticizing Islam, has in recent days become a rallying cause for right-wing extremists, forcing march organizers to repudiate some of their own supporters and prompting concern about clashes with militant leftists.

The marches, due to be held in at least 19 states, are being coordinated by ACT for America, a conservative grassroots organization that calls itself "the NRA of national security." The group has a long history of opposing Sharia, which is a legal or philosophical code derived from Islamic scripture and meant to guide the behavior of observant Muslims.

The ACT for America organizers say an adherence to Sharia among Muslims leads to abuses against women, from discrimination to honor killings.

The national coordinator of the marches, Scott Presler, is a 29-year-old Republican operative who says he, as a gay man, was first motivated to fight Muslim extremism after the deadly Orlando shooting last June.
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So this is a thing, I guess.
In Arkansas, a march was organized by Billy Roper, an avowed white supremacist.

"We want to send a message to Muslims that they are not welcome in our communities," Roper said in a podcast on Wednesday. "We want to send a message to Muslims that they're not welcome in our state. And ultimately we want to send a message to Muslims that they're not welcome in our nation and, of course, endgame, on our planet."

Roper specifically encouraged "white nationalists" to attend the marches and noted they could bring weapons to those rallies where "open carry" gun laws are in effect.
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S

Snowman Prophet of Doom

Member
Dan said:
Sen. Lankford was on NPR this afternoon echoing Paul Ryan's dumb argument that Trump is new at this and wouldn't really understand what is and is not inappropriate in dealing with the FBI. He specifically said Trump was used to "New York politics" instead of chains of command and DC which... uh... no, he's not even used to that.
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The only excuse (from their perspective) I can think for this is that Americans (and their constituents, specifically) CHOSE a president with no experience and no idea wtf he's doing, so you have to respect the logical consequences of that, such as "lapses" like this.

That's if I were wanting to generate excuses for Republican spinelessness, which of course I don't. Fuck them.
 
D

Diablos

Member
dramatis said:
'March Against Sharia' Planned Across The U.S.

So this is a thing, I guess.
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This is bad. Really bad. Rife for hate crimes. If there's some terror cell or lone wolf just waiting for a reason to start something, this certainly would give them a lot of incentive. It's just bad no matter how you look at this.

Btw finally watching Comey video of the testimony and the look on his face when Burr tells him he's under oath is fucking amazing.
 
M

Macho Madness

Member
kirblar said:
(We're not expecting to pick up UT senate seats, Romney would be an improvement on Hatch.)
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I mean I mainly brought it up because it's kind of funny. Yeah, Mitt would coast to victory. I just don't know what Biden's trying to achieve here. I'm not interested in propping up Republicans and I wish leaders would do the same. (Yes I'm aware Biden is no longer a leader but he has influence just the same)
 
K

kirblar

Member
Macho Madness said:
I mean I mainly brought it up because it's kind of funny. Yeah, Mitt would coast to victory. I just don't know what Biden's trying to achieve here. I'm not interested in propping up Republicans and I wish leaders would do the same. (Yes I'm aware Biden is no longer a leader but he has influence just the same)
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Encouraging younger, more moderate republicans to jump in is a good thing.

It's Utah. GOP will have it on lock due to the demos.
 
P

PBY

Banned
Aaron Strife said:
I'm fine with higher-up Democrats jockeying to get moderate Republicans in states that are lost causes. We could win the generic vote by 20 points next year and the Utah Republican would still coast to victory.
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Seriously. Mitt would be great in the Senate.
 
O

Ogodei

Member
kirblar said:
Encouraging younger, more moderate republicans to jump in is a good thing.

It's Utah. GOP will have it on lock due to the demos.
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Decades of GOP monopoly can create odd windows for Democrats to jump in, though. It's very unlikely, but possible within a two-party system where your only option when the GOP has so utterly screwed the pooch that even the most devout among them can no longer ignore it is to vote Democrat.

Plus the fact that Utah's slowly being colonized by incoming progressive demographics like much of the mountain west (a wave which has already overthrown the GOP in Colorado, is working towards it in Nevada, and raising threat levels in Arizona and to a lesser extent, Montana).
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
Ogodei said:
Decades of GOP monopoly can create odd windows for Democrats to jump in, though. It's very unlikely, but possible within a two-party system where your only option when the GOP has so utterly screwed the pooch that even the most devout among them can no longer ignore it is to vote Democrat.

Plus the fact that Utah's slowly being colonized by incoming progressive demographics like much of the mountain west (a wave which has already overthrown the GOP in Colorado, is working towards it in Nevada, and raising threat levels in Arizona and to a lesser extent, Montana).
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I just think the Mormonism is going to be a problem. We're never going to win people over who vote based on social issues. Like I don't want to sound defeatist or say that we shouldn't try to run good campaigns in red states, but I think Utah statewide elections are pretty hopeless.

Best thing that could happen is getting an SLC-based House district which would be super liberal.
 
A

ArkhamFantasy

Member
In the OT thread asking why Presidents dont have an exam, some people got onto me for blaming the American people for Trump rather than blaming the systems we have in place that allowed him to get voted in.

Am i looking at this the wrong way?
 
K

kirblar

Member
Aaron Strife said:
I just think the Mormonism is going to be a problem. We're never going to win people over who vote based on social issues. Like I don't want to sound defeatist or say that we shouldn't try to run good campaigns in red states, but I think Utah statewide elections are pretty hopeless.

Best thing that could happen is getting an SLC-based House district which would be super liberal.
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McArdle had a good article on Utah and it's social services overperforming there relative to other states - https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-03-28/how-utah-keeps-the-american-dream-alive

A big focus was on "how exportable are these programs/ideas to other areas?" and a conclusion was "not a lot because they're so heavily tied to the church and tribalized."
ArkhamFantasy said:
In the OT thread asking why Presidents dont have an exam, some people got onto me for blaming the American people for Trump rather than blaming the systems we have in place that allowed him to get voted in.

Am i looking at this the wrong way?
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Nope. People (especially on the left) are just kinda in denial about human nature.
 
D

dramatis

Member
ArkhamFantasy said:
In the OT thread asking why Presidents dont have an exam, some people got onto me for blaming the American people for Trump rather than blaming the systems we have in place that allowed him to get voted in.

Am i looking at this the wrong way?
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No.

Few people want to shoulder blame for something as disastrous as Trump, but undeniably the American people elected him, so we have at least a part of the responsibility.
 
F

fredrancour

Member
ArkhamFantasy said:
In the OT thread asking why Presidents dont have an exam, some people got onto me for blaming the American people for Trump rather than blaming the systems we have in place that allowed him to get voted in.

Am i looking at this the wrong way?
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Partially. Power corrupts almost anyone. We have checks and balances in part to protect us from the biases of different groups. We can acknowledge we fucked up while still saying, the system could do more to insure us against the flaws of human nature
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
dramatis said:
No.

Few people want to shoulder blame for something as disastrous as Trump, but undeniably the American people elected him, so we have at least a part of the responsibility.
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Macho Madness said:
Yes
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dudethisispoligaf.gif

There is this weird reluctance to admit when the American electorate fucked up. Trump will probably go down in history as a worse president than Nixon or Bush II (consensus go-to picks for the worst president), yet their opponents are still treated with derision. No one wants to acknowledge when the American people got fleeced even though their opponents would have made unquestionably better presidents. What's the lesson of 2016, where Trump won by lying his ass off about bringing jobs and healthcare to people? Hillary should have lied more?

And just to say, this isn't saying Hillary, or Gore or Kerry or anyone ran perfect campaigns. They had many glaring flaws as candidates. But it's fair to acknowledge when America went with the worse of two evils. We would have been significantly better off with Gore instead of Bush (no war in Iraq and possibly even no 9/11, stronger efforts taken to combat climate change) just like we'd be significantly better off now with Hillary instead of Trump.

And in the context of electoral politics, I'm not saying the DNC should go into 2020 like "y'all fucked up" because that would be a terrible campaign strategy. But if we're speaking academically, yes, y'all fucked up.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Aaron Strife said:
dudethisispoligaf.gif

There is this weird reluctance to admit when the American electorate fucked up. Trump will probably go down in history as a worse president than Nixon or Bush II (consensus go-to picks for the worst president), yet their opponents are still treated with derision. No one wants to acknowledge when the American people got fleeced even though their opponents would have made unquestionably better presidents. What's the lesson of 2016, where Trump won by lying his ass off about bringing jobs and healthcare to people? Hillary should have lied more?

And just to say, this isn't saying Hillary, or Gore or Kerry or anyone ran perfect campaigns. They had many glaring flaws as candidates. But it's fair to acknowledge when America went with the worse of two evils. We would have been significantly better off with Gore instead of Bush (no war in Iraq and possibly even no 9/11, stronger efforts taken to combat climate change) just like we'd be significantly better off now with Hillary instead of Trump.
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I mean, Trump and Dubya are making Nixon actually look good by comparison due to how far the GOP has fallen on social/environmental issues.
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
kirblar said:
I mean, Trump and Dubya are making Nixon actually look good by comparison due to how far the GOP has fallen on social/environmental issues.
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Nixon is always going to get a bum rap over Watergate even though what Bush did and what Trump is doing are significantly worse crimes, and like you said their agendas are horrendously bad compared to Nixon who had some good moments.

History just gets simplified beyond recognition. Nixon was the only president to resign? Wow, he must have been awful!
 
C

Carpe Libertatem

Member
Aaron Strife said:
dudethisispoligaf.gif

There is this weird reluctance to admit when the American electorate fucked up. Trump will probably go down in history as a worse president than Nixon or Bush II (consensus go-to picks for the worst president), yet their opponents are still treated with derision. No one wants to acknowledge when the American people got fleeced even though their opponents would have made unquestionably better presidents. What's the lesson of 2016, where Trump won by lying his ass off about bringing jobs and healthcare to people? Hillary should have lied more?
Click to expand...

Well people already thought Hillary was a crooked liar so maybe. She's mostly just not very good at lying. That and people don't want to hear the truth she says, so they think she's lying anyway or something. The American electorate is kind of crazy.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Aaron Strife said:
Nixon is always going to get a bum rap over Watergate even though what Bush did and what Trump is doing are significantly worse crimes, and like you said their agendas are horrendously bad compared to Nixon who had some good moments.

History just gets simplified beyond recognition. Nixon was the only president to resign? Wow, he must have been awful!
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Had Ted Kennedy not shitcanned it in favor of gambling on what turned out to be Carter's disastrous presidency, we would have gotten UHC done under Nixon.
 
O

Ogodei

Member
Worst President is and will remain Buchanan, who saw disaster coming and sat on his hands because he kind of agreed with the disaster-bringers.

Trump's presidency could have led down such a dark road, but his crisis would have been external rather than internal (like if he had led the breakup of NATO and the EU by working with May, Wilders, and Le Pen).

He could easily break into my top 5 (Buchanan, Andrew Johnson, Hoover, Harding, and Hayes) but it would be hard for Trump to get past Hoover unless he tanks the economy, and hard to get past Johnson and Buchanan unless he started a world war.

We've had some *bad* presidents before.

Of course i'm lenient on Nixon because he was actually good at his job even if he was a terrible person.
 
K

K-Marx

Banned
Aaron Strife said:
Nixon is always going to get a bum rap over Watergate even though what Bush did and what Trump is doing are significantly worse crimes, and like you said their agendas are horrendously bad compared to Nixon who had some good moments.

History just gets simplified beyond recognition. Nixon was the only president to resign? Wow, he must have been awful!
Click to expand...

Nixon sabotaged Vietnam peace talks to get elected. That's at minimum as bad as anything W ever did.
 
A

AntraxSuicide

Banned
ArkhamFantasy said:
In the OT thread asking why Presidents dont have an exam, some people got onto me for blaming the American people for Trump rather than blaming the systems we have in place that allowed him to get voted in.

Am i looking at this the wrong way?
Click to expand...

Anyone who voted for Donald Trump should be ashamed for the rest of their lives. It's the sort of thing that should instantly cost you your job, friends, or family. I legitimately think voting for Trump should be an admittance no different than saying you committed a heinous crime in the past.

I'm a straight (mostly) rural white man with an income that puts me in the lower quartile of income in the poorest state in the Union, which is also quite conservative. And yet somehow racism didn't cast its spell over such a poor defenseless worker like me and I didn't vote for Trump!

People shouldn't be excused for their votes. Those matter.
 
H

Host Samurai

Member
Ogodei said:
Worst President is and will remain Buchanan, who saw disaster coming and sat on his hands because he kind of agreed with the disaster-bringers.

Trump's presidency could have led down such a dark road, but his crisis would have been external rather than internal (like if he had led the breakup of NATO and the EU by working with May, Wilders, and Le Pen).

He could easily break into my top 5 (Buchanan, Andrew Johnson, Hoover, Harding, and Hayes) but it would be hard for Trump to get past Hoover unless he tanks the economy, and hard to get past Johnson and Buchanan unless he started a world war.

We've had some *bad* presidents before.

Of course i'm lenient on Nixon because he was actually good at his job even if he was a terrible person.
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I think you have to take time periods into account as well. I'd say 50-60 years. What Trump is doing would have been childs play compared to Nixon
 
F

FyreWulff

Member
cooljeanius said:
I thought one of the reasons was also the physical amount of space in the House Chamber: i.e., they'd have to rebuild the Capitol if they wanted to seat any more members
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If fucking high schools can have 20,000 seat football stadiums, I'd like to think the United States could figure out to build a building with 5,000 seats for representatives.
 
S

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
FyreWulff said:
If fucking high schools can have 20,000 seat football stadiums, I'd like to think the United States could figure out to build a building with 5,000 seats for representatives.
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Or, because if the internet they could not all go to Washington at once. More time spent in their district the better.
 
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