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PoliGAF 2017 |OT5| The Man In the High Chair

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My bets on money laundering.

I'm not so sure that the money laundering wouldn't lead down to path to verifying actual collusion. Specifically one or more of the following:

1) Trump team provides voter data to the Russians to help them target their bot ops against swingable voters.
2) Russians provide additional voter data (which may have been hacked) to the Trump team to use for their own targeted marketing.
3) Russians provide Kompromat on Hillary or or campaign members to Trump team.

Any of these are conspiring with an adversarial foreign intelligence to gain advantage over American citizens.

Any of these could be compensated for with laundered money.

Even if the compensation is merely changing the GOP platform re: sanctions and other policy changes or promises, it's still collusion.

Laundered money is paying for something.
 
It's not a hand wave just because you can't be bothered to engage with it.



It makes literally no difference. What do you think putting sanctions on Russia is going to do - make Putin invent a time machine, travel back in time, and tell his former self not to interfere in the election? The interference happened. We're now talking about: well, where do we go from here?

You have two things you need to explain.

1. What policy goal you want sanctions to achieve.
2. How sanctions will realise this policy goal.

You can't explain either of them. You don't have a defined policy goal, and you can't explain why sanctions will work to achieve that policy goal.

And the thing is, I think you know this.

I want you to clearly explain your answer to 1. and 2., or I'm not going to bother responding to any of your posts and will put you on the ignore list for being a waste of my time.

1. and 2., diminish Putin's power and influence.
 

Wilsongt

Member
New ARG poll (Aug 4-6)

New Hampshire 2020 poll of GOP primary voters
Kasich 52%
Trump 40%

Kasich 41%
Pence 27%
Kasich absolutely needs to run again. I think he's guaranteed to win New Hampshire. He came in second last time even though he fell flat ever where else

Honestly though I wish we could go back and have him win NH last time. Had trump lost both Iowa and NH I think it would have caused a downward spiral and tarnished his #winning brand. Maybe Cruz could have picked up SC after that and so on
 

dramatis

Member
It's not a hand wave just because you can't be bothered to engage with it.

It makes literally no difference. What do you think putting sanctions on Russia is going to do - make Putin invent a time machine, travel back in time, and tell his former self not to interfere in the election? The interference happened. We're now talking about: well, where do we go from here.
The goal is super obvious, but you pulled in time travel because you couldn't wrap your brain around anything except your immediate European interests. Punitive sanctions are intended to be a deterrent towards Russia interfering in US elections again. The intent is that they will realize interfering in US elections won't actually help lift previous sanctions and alleviate their economic troubles, so they have to look into reforming themselves to find another way towards prosperity.

If they were economically rational, they would stop mucking around with other countries and focus on themselves. Of course we both know that this is not an ideal world. But since you make a lot of arguments based on economic rationality, I don't think you can argue against this either.

You made a flippant response to me first, so I don't think you should suddenly put yourself on a high horse and consider yourself the victim.
 
Collusion is too hard to prove. They're going to go after them for fraud or tax evasion.
That would be the case if the people involved here weren't so fucking dumb

Don Jr tweeted out an email chain with the Russians about accepting oppo himself. The idiot who set up the meeting checked in to where they were on his Facebook.

I don't think it would be hard for Mueller to find more given what we know.
 

Everything about North Korea right now is so unclear to me. Who (as in what actors in the Trump Admin) is leaking this information? Why? Where is this all heading to?

Will Seoul even be here in 2019? Am I getting too hyperbolic? I normally love political speculation, but the North Korea stuff has me really concerned/confused/worried.

Like, is North Korea trying to goad the US into a preemptive action? Or is North Korea actually intending on using their weapons preemptively?
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
The goal is super obvious, but you pulled in time travel because you couldn't wrap your brain around anything except your immediate European interests. Punitive sanctions are intended to be a deterrent towards Russia interfering in US elections again. The intent is that they will realize interfering in US elections won't actually help lift previous sanctions and alleviate their economic troubles, so they have to look into reforming themselves to find another way towards prosperity.

Okay, so let's go with 1. is: Russia stops interfering in US elections. That's a good goal, let's work with it.

But you still don't have a 2. It's just not there. You're not explaining to me why placing wide-ranging sanctions is going to deter Russia from interfering with future elections.

I've bolded what I think you're trying to set out as the causal mechanism.

You seem to think:
1. Russia was interfering in the US elections because it believed that it could get the US to lift prior sanctions.
2. If we disabuse Russia of this belief, then they won't have a reason to interfere in US elections.
3. Therefore by doubling down on sanctions, we can prevent further interference.

This is... completely misunderstanding the situation we have at hand. Russia didn't interfere with the US because it wanted the US to lift prior sanctions because, well, that makes no sense. If you play the statistical game, most Russian interferences in most worlds still weren't enough to get Trump elected. Nobody could have predicted that - not even Russia. And if Russia had failed and Clinton had been elected in the face of Russian interference, that's hardly going to get sanctions lifted. It probably makes them worse. And even in the worlds where their unlikely gamble succeeded and Trump gets elected (e.g. this world), Trump can't just ignore Congress on these matters - as we've literally just seen.

So, why did Russia interfere? Because there are no 'Russsian' interests. There are only Putin interests (and the small coterie of people around Putin). The greatest threat to Putin's position is America's success. Suppose that the people of America were happy and content, that democracy was flourishing, that the two parties talked respectfully with one another and treated each as equals, that there was consistent growth in GDP and quality of life. Meanwhile, suppose Russia continued as it currently does. If you're Russian, you're going to start thinking: why can't we have some of what America has? and you're going to start thinking: this democracy stuff is great! And that's when Putin's position becomes less secure.

Putin interfering in the US elections is about securing his position. If he can divide the US, if he can make the US parties' turn on one another, if he can create legislative gridlock and help drag on the quality of life of the average American citizen, then it becomes much easier for the Kremlin's propaganda arm to spin: hey, look, the US sucks, you need a strong-man like Putin to prevent Western indecision and turmoil - because now there's a tiny kernel of truth to it.

So your explanation of why sanctions will work is just wrong. They're not going to do what you want them to do.

In fact, even worse, they strengthen Putin's position, since they make America the antagonist. Putin can point at America and say - look, they're ruining your lives. They're making your bread more expensive, making your company fail. I can deal with that. They make the American model less appealing - why do you want to be like the country that is determinedly screwing you over? So in fact: sanctions make the Putin regime stronger. They entrench it. To a certain extent, Putin actively enjoys sanctions - the post-Crimean sanctions caused a sharp spike in his approval ratings.

So again: not only do sanctions not work, they make things worse at achieving the very policy goal (non-interference in elections) that you wanted to achieve.

This, incidentally, is why I was talking about Maduro as an example. Maduro's position is significantly more tenuous than Putin's, which is why I'm saying he has more sanction exposure - his popular support is lower than Putin's, and he is closer to the knife's edge. If sanctions had any affect on weakening someone's position, you'd expect them to be especially effective against Maduro, whereas Putin might shrug them off even if they did have a positive effect to the point it could be difficult to notice. But that's not the case. Much like Putin, Maduro enjoys sanctions.

They are a bad policy.

If they were economically rational, they would stop mucking around with other countries and focus on themselves. Of course we both know that this is not an ideal world. But since you make a lot of arguments based on economic rationality, I don't think you can argue against this either.

You're thinking that 'Russia' makes decisions. 'Russia' doesn't make decisions. Putin does. Putin is already incredibly wealthy. It makes very little difference to him how well the Russian economy does. What's in Putin's economic interests is the stability of Putin's power - how well he can guard the vast wealth and influence he already has.

As I have argued above, sanctions actually help him do this. So if you're framing this as 'how will people respond under rational economic interests', that's a point in my favour, not yours.

What you are proposing is a terrible policy.

You made a flippant response to me first, so I don't think you should suddenly put yourself on a high horse and consider yourself the victim.

This is a lie, but I'll let it pass.

As an aside, I've not even mentioned the impact that this has on the European Union, and EU-US relations, which is an incredibly significant topic you've not even considered once - because I don't even have to. This policy is bad without that, and the fact you're damaging the US' closest ally is just another cherry on top of a giant cake of shit.
 
Okay, so let's go with 1. is: Russia stops interfering in US elections. That's a good goal, let's work with it.

But you still don't have a 2. It's just not there. You're not explaining to me why placing wide-ranging sanctions is going to deter Russia from interfering with future elections.

I've bolded what I think you're trying to set out as the causal mechanism.

You seem to think:
1. Russia was interfering in the US elections because it believed that it could get the US to lift prior sanctions.
2. If we disabuse Russia of this belief, then they won't have a reason to interfere in US elections.
3. Therefore by doubling down on sanctions, we can prevent further interference.

This is... completely misunderstanding the situation we have at hand. Russia didn't interfere with the US because it wanted the US to lift prior sanctions because, well, that makes no sense. If you play the statistical game, most Russian interferences in most worlds still weren't enough to get Trump elected. Nobody could have predicted that - not even Russia. And if Russia had failed and Clinton had been elected in the face of Russian interference, that's hardly going to get sanctions lifted. It probably makes them worse. And even in the worlds where their unlikely gamble succeeded and Trump gets elected (e.g. this world), Trump can't just ignore Congress on these matters - as we've literally just seen.

So, why did Russia interfere? Because there are no 'Russsian' interests. There are only Putin interests (and the small coterie of people around Putin). The greatest threat to Putin's position is America's success. Suppose that the people of America were happy and content, that democracy was flourishing, that the two parties talked respectfully with one another and treated each as equals, that there was consistent growth in GDP and quality of life. Meanwhile, suppose Russia continued as it currently does. If you're Russian, you're going to start thinking: why can't we have some of what America has? and you're going to start thinking: this democracy stuff is great! And that's when Putin's position becomes less secure.

Putin interfering in the US elections is about securing his position. If he can divide the US, if he can make the US parties' turn on one another, if he can create legislative gridlock and help drag on the quality of life of the average American citizen, then it becomes much easier for the Kremlin's propaganda arm to spin: hey, look, the US sucks, you need a strong-man like Putin to prevent Western indecision and turmoil - because now there's a tiny kernel of truth to it.

So your explanation of why sanctions will work is just wrong. They're not going to do what you want them to do.

In fact, even worse, they strengthen Putin's position, since they make America the antagonist. Putin can point at America and say - look, they're ruining your lives. They're making your bread more expensive, making your company fail. I can deal with that. They make the American model less appealing - why do you want to be like the country that is determinedly screwing you over? So in fact: sanctions make the Putin regime stronger. They entrench it. To a certain extent, Putin actively enjoys sanctions - the post-Crimean sanctions caused a sharp spike in his approval ratings.

So again: not only do sanctions not work, they make things worse at achieving the very policy goal (non-interference in elections) that you wanted to achieve.

This, incidentally, is why I was talking about Maduro as an example. Maduro's position is significantly more tenuous than Putin's, which is why I'm saying he has more sanction exposure - his popular support is lower than Putin's, and he is closer to the knife's edge. If sanctions had any affect on weakening someone's position, you'd expect them to be especially effective against Maduro, whereas Putin might shrug them off even if they did have a positive effect to the point it could be difficult to notice. But that's not the case. Much like Putin, Maduro enjoys sanctions.

They are a bad policy.



You're thinking that 'Russia' makes decisions. 'Russia' doesn't make decisions. Putin does. Putin is already incredibly wealthy. It makes very little difference to him how well the Russian economy does. What's in Putin's economic interests is the stability of Putin's power - how well he can guard the vast wealth and influence he already has.

As I have argued above, sanctions actually help him do this. So if you're framing this as 'how will people respond under rational economic interests', that's a point in my favour, not yours.

What you are proposing is a terrible policy.



This is a lie, but I'll let it pass.

As an aside, I've not even mentioned the impact that this has on the European Union, and EU-US relations, which is an incredibly significant topic you've not even considered once - because I don't even have to. This policy is bad without that, and the fact you're damaging the US' closest ally is just another cherry on top of a giant cake of shit.

What drivel.
 
Putin wants way more than sanctions ended. He wants to destabilize the entire West. He wants NATO broken up, UK out of the EU, and for America to descend into total dysfunction so he can expand his organized crime network unfettered throughout the first world.

Trump is an agent of pure chaos and Putin saw way, way more value in him as a patsy that would do far more for him than drop the current sanctions. Putin's vision is far more grand.

Getting sanctions rolled back is square one.
 

PBY

Banned
Crab don't bother.

There are legitimate reasons for sanctions, but in many cases it really boils down to people want retributive justice and don't think beyond that.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Crab don't bother.

There are legitimate reasons for sanctions, but in many cases it really boils down to people want retributive justice and don't think beyond that.

You on the 'Russian sanctions are not for a legitimate reason' bandwagon too?
 

PBY

Banned
You on the 'Russian sanctions are not for a legitimate reason' bandwagon too?

The underlying offense is legitimate. I haven't heard a great articulation of exactly (1) what the US wants to accomplish with such sanctions and (2) how such sanctions are narrowly tailored to that goal.
 

mlclmtckr

Banned
Not to mention you skip between race and ethnicity interchangeably. My closest friend is racially Asian but would be rather upset to be told he is anything but ethnically British.

As a side note, I think he must skew the fuck out of every poll he participates in, because he was a 2015 UKIP voter who went Green in the last election! He also had a really weird hard-on for Cruz despite being a Muslim (albeit not at all devout). Possibly the smartest person I know, but I will never understand his politics.

He must be really, really smart in areas other than politics
 

Blader

Member
What happened?

Just the usual shitty contribution he makes to any of these kinds of articles:

Also undercutting Trump's constant assaults, Axelrod noted, is how Trump frequently participates in interviews with reporters representing the very news organization he rails against.

Others warned that to take Trump literally is to misunderstand the president. ”Understanding Trump means you have to have a healthy dose of humor and skepticism about the spoken word," said Ari Fleischer, a former press secretary to President George W. Bush.

Of the White House's efforts to promote stories from the same organizations the president discredits, Fleischer pointed to a moment last March, when former White House press secretary Sean Spicer told reporters that the monthly jobs numbers produced by the labor department that Trump had previously discredited ”may have been phony in the past, but it's very real now."

”How do you square it?" asked Fleischer. ”You square it with a smile."

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/08/08/trump-media-stories-hemming-241392

It was just the brazenness of this particular sentiment that really pissed me off.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
He must be really, really smart in areas other than politics

He's currently doing his PhD at a university and course so specific I couldn't divulge them without necessarily doxxing him. Suffice to say, he's on some next level shit. It remains one of the proudest achievements of my life I beat him in first year preliminary exams - admittedly because he didn't bother much. I'll never do it again, and it makes for a great back-up tease when he's schooling me on something!
 

Blader

Member
Crab don't bother.

There are legitimate reasons for sanctions, but in many cases it really boils down to people want retributive justice and don't think beyond that.

Undermining and interfering in our presidential elections as part of an influence operation is a huge deal and demands a response. That response can either be a military strike or economic sanctions. It's not fucking complicated.
 
The underlying offense is legitimate. I haven't heard a great articulation of exactly (1) what the US wants to accomplish with such sanctions and (2) how such sanctions are narrowly tailored to that goal.

(1) Stop Putin
(2) By targeting his financial influence/power
 

PBY

Banned
Undermining and interfering in our presidential elections as part of an influence operation is a huge deal and demands a response. That response can either be a military strike or economic sanctions. It's not fucking complicated.

I just don't view the world that way (and this applies in other areas broadly related, e.g., criminal justice). Most people do, so I get that.
 

Blader

Member

Or:

1. We must do something
2. Here's a list of options to pick from
3. Therefore, let's do [the best option]

You know, the same way every foreign policy decision ever is made.

I just don't view the world that way (and this applies in other areas broadly related, e.g., criminal justice). Most people do, so I get that.

Geopolitics and criminal justice are very different!

Suikoguy said:
And proud of it.

You really think you are a superior person don't you?

Didn't you hear he once did better than his super-smart friend on a test?
 

jmdajr

Member
lead_960.jpg


THE ATLANTIC
The nation's current post-truth moment is the ultimate expression of mind-sets that have made America exceptional throughout its history.

This is quite the article but it was a great, and worrisome, read.

How widespread is this promiscuous devotion to the untrue? How many Americans now inhabit alternate realities? Any given survey of beliefs is only a sketch of what people in general really think. But reams of survey research from the past 20 years reveal a rough, useful census of American credulity and delusion. By my reckoning, the solidly reality-based are a minority, maybe a third of us but almost certainly fewer than half. Only a third of us, for instance, don't believe that the tale of creation in Genesis is the word of God. Only a third strongly disbelieve in telepathy and ghosts. Two-thirds of Americans believe that ”angels and demons are active in the world." More than half say they're absolutely certain heaven exists, and just as many are sure of the existence of a personal God—not a vague force or universal spirit or higher power, but some guy. A third of us believe not only that global warming is no big deal but that it's a hoax perpetrated by scientists, the government, and journalists. A third believe that our earliest ancestors were humans just like us; that the government has, in league with the pharmaceutical industry, hidden evidence of natural cancer cures; that extraterrestrials have visited or are visiting Earth. Almost a quarter believe that vaccines cause autism, and that Donald Trump won the popular vote in 2016. A quarter believe that our previous president maybe or definitely was (or is?) the anti-Christ. According to a survey by Public Policy Polling, 15 percent believe that the ”media or the government adds secret mind-controlling technology to television broadcast signals," and another 15 percent think that's possible. A quarter of Americans believe in witches. Remarkably, the same fraction, or maybe less, believes that the Bible consists mainly of legends and fables—the same proportion that believes U.S. officials were complicit in the 9/11 attacks.


...

Why are we like this?

The short answer is because we're Americans—because being American means we can believe anything we want; that our beliefs are equal or superior to anyone else's, experts be damned. Once people commit to that approach, the world turns inside out, and no cause-and-effect connection is fixed. The credible becomes incredible and the incredible credible.

The Cultural Factors Driving America's Departure From Reality
 

Ogodei

Member
I don't think we'll ever reach a consensus on abortion the way we did on gay/trans rights and that we probably will on marijuana.

The issue is confused because a lot of ostensibly anti-choice women are fine with an abortion for themselves or their daughters. That's different, something regrettable that had to be done. It's when anyone else does it that it's a murder that must be stopped at all costs.
 

PBY

Banned
The issue is confused because a lot of ostensibly anti-choice women are fine with an abortion for themselves or their daughters. That's different, something regrettable that had to be done. It's when anyone else does it that it's a murder that must be stopped at all costs.

We're fundamentally a sexist nation, and this is by no means exclusive to the right.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
And proud of it.

You really think you are a superior person don't you?

Not in the slightest, but if all of your responses to me are just going to be shitposts that don't engage with anything I say, I'm not left with much option but to at least amuse myself.

What specifically is your problem with the sanctions? What measures to stop Putin do you propose instead?

I think it's quite obvious what my problem with sanctions is - I set out an entire post explaining why they make Putin's position stronger. That's a pretty good reason to have a problem with sanctions!

I don't know what you mean by 'stop' Putin. I think it's incredibly unlikely that there's any policy that can be taken that has any serious prospect of ousting him. He's too deeply entrenched, too popular. If by 'stop', you mean something more like: curtail his influence, prevent future aggression, secure our own position, I think there are a number of steps we can take:

- The European Union could increase military spending and look to better integrate European national militaries
- The European Union could heavily increase infrastructure investment in Eastern European countries
- The United States could invest in the European infrastructure needed to import American and Canadian gas (this would probably even be long-run profitable)
- All Western countries could substantively increase their cybersecurity measures, particularly where it relates to national governments
- The European Union and the United States working in partnership could implement targeted sanctions that focus on the personal assets of key Russian officials who are closest to Putin
- NATO could increase military stations in Poland and the Baltic States
- The United States and the European Union could focus on the internal growth and quality of life of their citizens - make the West and Western ideals desirable

Or:

1. We must do something
2. Here's a list of options to pick from
3. Therefore, let's do [the best option]

You know, the same way every foreign policy decision ever is made.

Correct. Unfortunately, this is not the best option, it's been explained to you why this is not the best option, and you're ignoring the fact this is not the best option because ???.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Casual xenophobia and warmongering? I remember the days when PoliGAF was filled with Democrats!
 

NoName999

Member
Trump pays a staffer $89,000 to find positive news stories on him

Media bashing has become one of the organizing principles of Donald Trump’s presidency. But behind the scenes, the Trump machine is eagerly promoting the nuggets of positive press it receives from the very outlets the president seeks to discredit.

The White House director of rapid response, Andy Hemming, 31, spends his days immersed in cable television, Twitter, print and online media to suss out positive stories about Trump, which he blasts back out to his list of more than 1,000 influencers — mainly reporters, but also television talking heads — who together craft the overall story of Trump’s presidency.

Sad!
 
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