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PoliGAF 2017 |OT5| The Man In the High Chair

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V

VendettaRed07

Member
Bonen no Max'd said:
Hot take: Washington probably would have been a Confederate

Hotter take: it potentially would have been better if the American revolution never happened.
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There's nothing I can tell from Washington's writings that would have suggested he would have supported a violent rebellion movement like the Confederacy. He absolutely despised any movement against the US government that tried to argue they were acting tyrannical against US citizens like the British were. People had representation. Elected officials imposed the taxes and laws and if you had grievances you solved them politically. He would not have supported a movement of secession that started because they couldn't accept an elected president's political positions on slavery
 
W

Wilsongt

Member
S

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
VendettaRed07 said:
This conversation going too far in one direction sort of justifies right wing dismissal of the criticism of confederate monuments.

Washington wasnt just some idiot who threw his life away and killed a bunch of Americans in the name of maintaining his ability to own people.

He committed human rights violations, and that shouldn't be downplayed or justified. But there's a difference between remembering someone who did commit a crime like that vs remembering someone specifically BECAUSE they commited crimes against humanity in order to stick it to people in areas that were never even apart of the confederacy
Click to expand...

Seriously.

I might bookmark these few pages when people say Horseshoe theory has no merit.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Dubbedinenglish said:
I have and done some decent research into it, have you?


CSA constitution:

Preamble-We, the people of the Confederate States, each state acting in its sovereign and independent character....invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God
Click to expand...

Invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God isn't sufficient to make one a theocracy, unless the United Kingdom under Queen Elizabeth by Grace of God is a theocracy. Nor is the States immune from this - the Declaration contains numerous references to the Almighty.

snip
Click to expand...

In the rest of this, you've named some minor changes which don't support your points (I mean European executives get representatives to their legislatures, that's just a shift towards parliamentarianism) and then the entrenched repression of slaves. This doesn't support your starting point, where you conceded that: hey, Washington did some bad slave stuff, but we can still honour him because he wrote a Constitution that had rights in it! The Confederacy also wrote a Constitution that had rights in it - they lifted most of them from the original, which by your prior logic means we still ought to be able to honour them!

This is clearly wrong. We shouldn't be honouring the Confederacy. We should also not be honouring Washington. I mean, it's much more important that we don't honour the Confederacy because they're an existing focal point for white supremacists, whereas Washington hasn't been established as one yet, but I bet you my bottom dollar right now that if the Confederacy had never existed, white supremacists would be clinging to George Washington and arguing we should have done things the way he did and that things were better then as an appeal to justify racism.
 
P

PBY

Banned
Suikoguy said:
Seriously.

I might bookmark these few pages when people say Horseshoe theory has no merit.
Click to expand...

I mean, okay. But you cede the moral high ground immediately when you start saying "Washington had slaves, but..."

I don't think anyone here is asking for his statues to be removed.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
PBY said:
I don't think anyone here is asking for his statues to be removed.
Click to expand...

Not seriously, no, but I do think it would be very healthy if it was a question ("Do we need to remove Washington's statues yet?") that got asked very regularly. Same with Churchill. He helped organize Britain's war effort and it's difficult to see who could feasibly have replaced him as the spirit of the time. He was also a racist imperialist who sent in the cavalrymen at Tonypandy to murder Welsh miners. It is incredibly important for our perspective on British history we remember every side of the man. Sometimes I think all those glorious and fine statues and busts do is push us towards remembering only the former, and that's dangerous. There's no statue of Sawyl Rhys bleeding to death on the streets.
 
P

PBY

Banned
Crab said:
Not seriously, no, but I do think it would be very healthy if it was a question ("Do we need to remove Washington's statues yet?") that got asked very regularly. Same with Churchill. He helped organize Britain's war effort and it's difficult to see who could feasibly have replaced him as the spirit of the time. He was also a racist imperialist who sent in the cavalrymen at Tonypandy to murder Welsh miners. It is incredibly important for our perspective on British history we remember every side of the man. Sometimes I think all those glorious and fine statues and busts do is push us towards remembering only the former. There's no statue of Cynddelw ap Conwy bleeding to death on the streets.
Click to expand...

All for this, totally agree.
 
T

TumblingHippo

Member
T

Teggy

Member
It was reported that Rohrabacher went to the Assange meeting with banned-from-twitter nazi Chuck Johnson, but he also took a nice picture with him, with Johnson making the Pepe hand sign.
 
B

barber

Member
Fenderputty said:
Ryan would work with Dems if he needs to to stop the world economy from collapsing. The debt ceiling is like the only thing the eGOP can be confidently relied upon. Any move by the HFC here would be grandstanding, pure and simple.
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Ryan working with the dems will be the final nail in his coffin. That is what killed Boehner, as he was labelled a traitor by the alt-right / tea party.
 
I

Ignatz Mouse

Banned
Crab said:
Not seriously, no, but I do think it would be very healthy if it was a question ("Do we need to remove Washington's statues yet?") that got asked very regularly. Same with Churchill. He helped organize Britain's war effort and it's difficult to see who could feasibly have replaced him as the spirit of the time. He was also a racist imperialist who sent in the cavalrymen at Tonypandy to murder Welsh miners. It is incredibly important for our perspective on British history we remember every side of the man. Sometimes I think all those glorious and fine statues and busts do is push us towards remembering only the former, and that's dangerous. There's no statue of Sawyl Rhys bleeding to death on the streets.
Click to expand...

This is a great perspective.

Washington is an odd one to single out the way he has been, frankly, because the American Revolution was such a group effort. There wasn't just one or two charismatic leaders who whipped everyone up, there were many. And Washington wasn't even one of them, he was a military commander. Honoring him for his military prowess against long odds, fine. And he set some good precedents as the first President. But he wasn't a statesman the way some of the other founders were, and he didn't particularly participate in either the Declaration (he was busy!) or the Constitution.

Jefferson (worse regarding slavery) would better for the ideals he espoused. Adams was more principled but not especially a beacon of democratic ideals and set some *bad* precedents as President. Honestly, Lafayette seems like one of the most principled, but... not American!
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Thomas Paine was cool, we can put statues of him everywhere. Dude was a feminist abolitionist socialist secularist in the 1780s, that's hardcore.
 
P

Piecake

Member
Ignatz Mouse said:
This is a great perspective.

Washington is an odd one to single out the way he has been, frankly, because the American Revolution was such a group effort. There wasn't just one or two charismatic leaders who whipped everyone up, there were many. And Washington wasn't even one of them, he was a military commander. Honoring him for his military prowess against long odds, fine. And he set some good precedents as the first President. But he wasn't a statesman the way some of the other founders were, and he didn't particularly participate in either the Declaration (he was busy!) or the Constitution.

Jefferson (worse regarding slavery) would better for the ideals he espoused. Adams was more principled but not especially a beacon of democratic ideals and set some *bad* precedents as President. Honestly, Lafayette seems like one of the most principled, but... not American!
Click to expand...

John Laurens (Wiki)
 
S

skullmuffins

Banned
IJR: Hill Republicans Want Trump to Stay Out of Tax Reform Push After Charlottesville


DHc924aXgAImWeX


I think they're getting a little tired of Donnie's shit
 
B

Blader

Member
Crab said:
Not seriously, no, but I do think it would be very healthy if it was a question ("Do we need to remove Washington's statues yet?") that got asked very regularly.
Click to expand...

That would be a fairly pointless waste of anyone's time. George Washington was the first President of the United States and, effectively, the face of the American Revolution. He is just about one of the most iconic American figures, period. The collective answer to, "Do we need to remove Washington's statues yet?" (which I guess should also include Mt. Rushmore, the Washington Monument, every $1 bill and quarter, and the names of a state + the nation's capitol) is literally going to always be no.

Actually, I take that back. All the Washington shit will come down if and when the United States collapses and is reorganized as some other nation, power bloc, thing.
 
S

skullmuffins

Banned
smokeymicpot said:
Study what General Pershing of the United States did to terrorists when caught. There was no more Radical Islamic Terror for 35 years!

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/898254409511129088

He can say that but not neo-nazis.
Click to expand...

For reference, http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...-trump-cites-dubious-legend-about-gen-pershi/

Daniel Dale @ddale8
Trump is again endorsing a FAKE MASSACRE of Muslim terrorists with bullets dipped in pigs' blood. This never happened. Pure bigotry.

This hoax massacre is one of the most egregious lies and most egregious pieces of hatred from Trump on the campaign. Now, as president.

To repeat: the U.S. president is endorsing mass murder as an anti-terror tactic...citing a historical event that never happened.
Click to expand...

We are balls-deep in Racism Week
 
A

Ac30

Member
smokeymicpot said:
Study what General Pershing of the United States did to terrorists when caught. There was no more Radical Islamic Terror for 35 years!

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/898254409511129088

He can say that but not neo-nazis.
Click to expand...

Fucking amazing

"General Pershing would never support Trump. He rejected British and French demands that American forces be integrated with their armies, and insisted that the AEF would operate as a single unit under his command. Although some American divisions fought under British command, and he also allowed all-black units to be integrated with the French army"

Don't know how to upload screenshots but this was already on Pershing's wiki page.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Blader said:
That would be a fairly pointless waste of anyone's time. George Washington was the first President of the United States and, effectively, the face of the American Revolution. He is just about one of the most iconic American figures, period. The collective answer to, "Do we need to remove Washington's statues yet?" (which I guess should also include Mt. Rushmore, the Washington Monument, every $1 bill and quarter, and the names of a state + the nation's capitol) is literally going to always be no.

Actually, I take that back. All the Washington shit will come down if and when the United States collapses and is reorganized as some other nation, power bloc, thing.
Click to expand...

I congratulate you on your ability to spectacularly miss the point - I'm actually impressed.
 
K

Kusagari

Member
Yeah, I think the Senate, at least, isn't even going to bother engaging him any longer. He's lame ducked himself and will just serve as a signature if something gets through.
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
B

Blader

Member
Crab said:
I congratulate you on your ability to spectacularly miss the point - I'm actually impressed.
Click to expand...

Don't blame me, it was your asinine point to begin with.

dramatis said:
I don't think it's possible, Fox and Friends will surely be talking about it, plus CNN. Trump's admin also really wants a win, and after the healthcare disaster I'm not sure they trust Congress to be able to deliver.
Click to expand...

Yep. Unless McConnell and Ryan can get every Republican on board right from the start, Trump the Dealmaker won't be able to resist trying to get involved.
 
W

Wilsongt

Member
Teggy said:
It was reported that Rohrabacher went to the Assange meeting with banned-from-twitter nazi Chuck Johnson, but he also took a nice picture with him, with Johnson making the Pepe hand sign.
Click to expand...

Wat

I know about the RussianxRussian meeting, but not the picture. Link?
 
D

Diablos

Member
lol can't even associate with The Donald on taxes and that's like the easiest fucking issue for Republicans to legislate on you would think

Amazing
 
C

Cesare Borgia

Banned
Both Washington and Lee owned slaves. Only one went to war against the United States to preserve slavery. Seems like a big fucking difference. Any Confederate flags, statues, or memorials relate to a failed rebellion that was illegal, and should be viewed as such. Seems pretty simple to me...

One thing about Trump...it's only a matter of time before the family of the lady who died says something critical of Trump and he responds with an attack.
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
Diablos said:
lol can't even associate with The Donald on taxes and that's like the easiest fucking issue for Republicans to legislate on you would think

Amazing
Click to expand...
They haven't accepted yet that the most they can do is tax cuts. Actual tax reform is probably a fantasy.

Anyway

https://poll.qu.edu/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=2481

Big news of this poll is that Trump's approval rebounded after his all-time low of 32%, but really I'm more encouraged by the Democrats posting a 10-point lead in the generic ballot.

I think this article was posted earlier but it might bear discussion as it's more evidence that Sinema will be running against Flake. Combined with Trump basically endorsing Kelli Ward on Twitter today I think we've got a real shot here.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/...18.html?referer=https://t.co/JoBWMGTfaT?amp=1
 
F

Fuchsdh

Member
Ignatz Mouse said:
This is a great perspective.

Washington is an odd one to single out the way he has been, frankly, because the American Revolution was such a group effort. There wasn't just one or two charismatic leaders who whipped everyone up, there were many. And Washington wasn't even one of them, he was a military commander. Honoring him for his military prowess against long odds, fine. And he set some good precedents as the first President. But he wasn't a statesman the way some of the other founders were, and he didn't particularly participate in either the Declaration (he was busy!) or the Constitution.

Jefferson (worse regarding slavery) would better for the ideals he espoused. Adams was more principled but not especially a beacon of democratic ideals and set some *bad* precedents as President. Honestly, Lafayette seems like one of the most principled, but... not American!
Click to expand...

But without Washington, the country would have plunged into sectarian war far sooner than it did. It's impossible to downplay the significance of him preventing the army from staging a coup.

The fact that he wasn't a statesman is missing the point, the same way pointing out that he wasn't a great military leader is missing the point (Lee was far and away a better commander; Washington's only major skill was in orderly retreats.) He was the symbol people used to rally behind, and that was incredibly important.
 
H

Hindl

Member
Crab said:
Not seriously, no, but I do think it would be very healthy if it was a question ("Do we need to remove Washington's statues yet?") that got asked very regularly. Same with Churchill. He helped organize Britain's war effort and it's difficult to see who could feasibly have replaced him as the spirit of the time. He was also a racist imperialist who sent in the cavalrymen at Tonypandy to murder Welsh miners. It is incredibly important for our perspective on British history we remember every side of the man. Sometimes I think all those glorious and fine statues and busts do is push us towards remembering only the former, and that's dangerous. There's no statue of Sawyl Rhys bleeding to death on the streets.
Click to expand...
I agree mostly with the idea, but not removing the monuments, simply removing monuments to Washington is basically impossible due to how pervasive he is. But I'm all for some type of education reforms that, once you get to high school, delves into the Founding Fathers as people, and not the deities that they've become. Recognize their flaws, condemn them for their morally questionable/straight up bad positions on various things, and teach people that they weren't perfect, they were just like us. Unfortunately you only really get that nuance in AP high school and college classes, and not nearly enough people take them. And the education system is fucked because of Texas' stranglehold on the textbook system
Crab said:
Thomas Paine was cool, we can put statues of him everywhere. Dude was a feminist abolitionist socialist secularist in the 1780s, that's hardcore.
Click to expand...
And this
 
E

Eferim

Member
Fuchsdh said:
But without Washington, the country would have plunged into sectarian war far sooner than it did. It's impossible to downplay the significance of him preventing the army from staging a coup.

The fact that he wasn't a statesman is missing the point, the same way pointing out that he wasn't a great military leader is missing the point (Lee was far and away a better commander; Washington's only major skill was in orderly retreats.) He was the symbol people used to rally behind, and that was incredibly important.
Click to expand...

Thank you for this. Nice to see someone that gets it.
 
I

Ignatz Mouse

Banned
Fuchsdh said:
But without Washington, the country would have plunged into sectarian war far sooner than it did. It's impossible to downplay the significance of him preventing the army from staging a coup.

The fact that he wasn't a statesman is missing the point, the same way pointing out that he wasn't a great military leader is missing the point (Lee was far and away a better commander; Washington's only major skill was in orderly retreats.) He was the symbol people used to rally behind, and that was incredibly important.
Click to expand...

I guess that's just it-- he was a symbol more than an agent.

Like I said, the revolution was a group effort. I guess people need (and needed) an icon.
 
D

Dr. Worm

Banned
Tall4Life said:
The South wanted black people to count fully, but without being actual citizens having rights, so they could dominate the House of Representatives, which would mean even harsher subjugation of slaves and civil liberties

They also included in the Constitution that no new slaves could be imported after 1808 (of course because of smuggling this still happened, but it wasn't legal)

Not saying that those two things easily match or outweigh the severity of the implications of the 3/5 compromise, but they weren't fully in support of slavery (of course I'd agree that they didn't do enough, they should've banned it, but this is what happened)
Click to expand...

I think you might be muddling your perceptions of "they" here.

The Constitution is a product of compromise between the northern states and the southern states, which had different viewpoints; people tend to lump all of those folks into "Founding Fathers" and figure they all had the same mindset, but it's the case. By and large, the southern states wanted to maintain mostly pro-slavery policies in it (since they relied on slaves economically) while the northern states were mostly ambivalent about it and figured slavery was one of those things that would just kinda go away on its own. Most of the facets of the Constitution regarding slavery are the result of those compromises - an explicitly pro-slavery or anti-slavery Constitution wouldn't include them.

Coincidentally, the Electoral College is one of those compromises, since it functions in conjunction with the 3/5ths Compromise. The bicameral legislature is essentially one as well, since the Senate favored northern states over southern states (8 vs. 5).
 
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