PoliGAF Debate #3 Thread of Hey Joe, where you goin' with that plunger in your hand

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Fragamemnon said:
I don't have a problem with it. He wants to distort and troll for the cameras? He should know what he is getting into, feel the burn you hapless pawn.
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It's just going to give McCain something he can prop up. I'd rather he flop to the mezzanine as soon as humanly possible.
 
CharlieDigital said:
Is this actually him? Is his first name Sam? I'm still confused on all of this.
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"Samuel" was too elitist. Hence, "Joe".
 
Fragamemnon said:
I think that the only Republican that has ever done any heavy vetting in the campaign is Bristol Palin.
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Oh man, if she actually vetted her current fucktard of a boyfriend, then I have no sympathy for her.
 
Father_Brain said:
Bottom line: The public wants big government. Grover Norquist, Ron Paul, and the rest of the starve-the-beasters and hardline libertarians can cry me a fucking river.
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A conservative government created the Department of Homeland Security whose annual spending is greater than the Department of Justice and the Department of Energy.

Any conservative talking about "small" government should just sit down and put a dunce cap on.
 
r796921493.jpg


Is there a short clip on YouTube of this moment? I need to see it in action again.
 
CharlieDigital said:
I need to know now.
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My field is not law, if my numerous posts in science / health related subject matters haven't clued you in. And that's all I'm saying. My business is my business.

"4) Why should we believe your interpretation of law if you have not accomplished 1-3?"

I don't get into the nitty gritty of legal interpretation. I'm concerned with the constitution and how its been abused and ignored by our political parties over the years. Obama is no doubt an expert regarding the status quo that I despise.

One doesn't need to spend 3 years in law school to know history and politics and theories of governance, or to understand the basic principle that the Constitution "as interpreted" is not the Constitution "as ratified," or that there is an amendment process for a logical and straightforward reason, or that the 10th Amendment fucking exists, is not remotely ambiguous in its wording, and was most certainly ratified.
 
SupahBlah said:
Any conservative talking about "small" government should just sit down and put a dunce cap on.
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There are a great deal of conservatives that are totally furious with Bush. There's a reason he's Mr. 25% and not Mr. 42-45%.
 
Joe is just the embodiment of the millions of working class that get tricked every four years into thinking that the Republicans have their best interests at heart. I hope how much better off Joe would do under Obama than McCain turns into a major story, but I know it won't.
 
CharlieDigital said:
Is this actually him? Is his first name Sam? I'm still confused on all of this.



This bothers me a lot about Jay. Obama is a Harvard educated lawyer who was also the president of the Harvard Law Review -- elected by his peers in the study of law.

He has studied the Constitution in a capacity that is likely to be greater in breadth and depth than Jay and he has studied law in a capacity that is likely to be greater in breadth and depth than Jay.

Now look, Jay, if you want to call his view "fucktarded", then you need to present some credentials to merit that your view or interpretation of the Constitution is superior.
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I'm familiar with a guy who received his Bachelors from UC Berkeley and a PhD in Math from U. Michigan, and, despite his good (maybe not as good as Obama, but still good) credentials, I'd take damn near anyone's views over his. He was even an Asst. Prof. at Berkeley for 2 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kaczynski
 
Obama Election Night Party In Chicago's Grant Park, Likely



CHICAGO (CBS) ― It's not a done deal yet, but all indications are that campaign officials are leaning toward Hutchinson Field on the south end of Grant Park as the site of their election night party.

The field is home to softball diamonds, the popular summer Lollapalooza music festival and was the site of the mass pope John Paul held in Chicago nearly 30 years ago.

If Grant Park is chosen as the venue, it would not be the first big outdoor event for Obama. He announced his presidential run outside the old state capitol in Springfield on a very cold day last February and gave his nomination acceptance speech at Denver's Mile High Stadium.

CBS 2 first reported last month that Grant Park was on Obama campaign officials' shortlist. They tentatively decided on it late last week. The negotiations with the city and park district have begun. Security arrangements are reportedly starting to take shape, and Mayor Richard M. Daley reportedly said it was a great idea.

The record low for Nov. 4 in Chicago is 15 degrees. CBS 2 Chief Correspondent Jay Levine asked Chicagoland Chamber of Commerce President Jerry Roper what he anticipated for the night.

"Weather's never a problem Chicago. We know how to handle it," Roper said. "And there'll be a lot of warmth that night, if indeed it does take place in Grant Park."

Roper added that the event would be a "huge economic boost for our city."

"People have been following Barack Obama around the world, and the world will have their eyes on Chicago that evening," Roper said. "With the Pope's visit from 30 years ago, to Lollapalooza, this city knows how to handle big events. … We're prepared."
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http://cbs2chicago.com/local/obama.election.night.2.841341.html
 
God, from what I am hearing I don't think the McCain campaign has anyone distributing material outside of the early voting places here in NC. If anyone spots a poll worker handing out substantial GOP lit at their one-stop polling place, shoot me a PM with the location.
 
JayDubya said:
One doesn't need to spend 3 years in law school to know history and politics and theories of governance, or to understand the basic principle that the Constitution "as interpreted" is not the Constitution "as ratified," or that there is an amendment process for a logical and straightforward reason, or that the 10th Amendment fucking exists, is not remotely ambiguous in its wording, and was most certainly ratified.
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What's a well organized militia? A sentence modifier, a description of an entity, or a pause for breath?

SupahBlah said:
A neocon government created the Department of Homeland Security whose annual spending is greater than the Department of Justice and the Department of Energy.

Any modern republican talking about "small" government should just sit down and put a dunce cap on.
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fixed
 
prodystopian said:
I'm familiar with a guy who received his Bachelors from UC Berkeley and a PhD in Math from U. Michigan, and, despite his good (maybe not as good as Obama, but still good) credentials, I'd take damn near anyone's views over his. He was even an Asst. Prof. at Berkeley for 2 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kaczynski
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Are we talking about the field of mathematics here?

Think about it in terms of expert witnesses allowed in a court: When the issue is constitutional law, you betcha a court will allow a Constitutional law professor to testify as an expert. An assistant professor of math? Not so much.
 
OuterWorldVoice said:
What's a well organized militia? A sentence modifier, a description of an entity, or a pause for breath?
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OH god. What the fuck have you done?

POLIGAF, BAIL OUT.
 
Fragamemnon said:
There are a great deal of conservatives that are totally furious with Bush. There's a reason he's Mr. 25% and not Mr. 42-45%.
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I guess, I don't know how anyone can sit there and actually mention "freedoms" and small government with the patriot act lurking in the window waving.

Really is a plague on both houses for passing that.

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
 
OuterWorldVoice said:
What's a well organized militia? A sentence modifier, a description of an entity, or a pause for breath?
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Something that's apparently neccessary for the security of the free state, but doesn't otherwise modify a sentence in any way.
 
numble said:
Are we talking about the field of mathematics here?
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No, but just because someone is a genius with a good education doesn't mean he is to be trusted with the fate of our country. If Kaczynski had studied law instead of Math, would you trust him?
 
JayDubya said:
Something that's apparently neccessary for the security of the free state, but doesn't otherwise modify a sentence in any way.
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Oh good, so the ammenders were just writing down stream of consciousness stuff, as they ammended. Maybe they were prototyping Finnegan's Wake.
 
Frank the Great said:
HOLY SHIT. Brutal.

Glad to see that they are finally using that quote in ads. So perfect. :lol
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LOL that's the best one yet: McCain looking confused and bizarre, then he takes apart his argument in his own words.
 
JayDubya said:
One doesn't need to spend 3 years in law school to know history and politics and theories of governance, or to understand the basic principle that the Constitution "as interpreted" is not the Constitution "as ratified," or that there is an amendment process for a logical and straightforward reason, or that the 10th Amendment fucking exists, is not remotely ambiguous in its wording, and was most certainly ratified.
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Sure, but you called his view of the law and the Constitution "fucktarded". I'm not saying that it is the exclusive realm of the well studied lawyer to have knowledge of the history of the US and the Constitution, but what I need to know is why you think you have a better breadth and depth of knowledge on the subject than a graduate of Harvard law, an actual lawyer, and a teacher of Constitutional law at the collegiate level.

You yourself used the term "basic principle". Anyone can understand the Theory of Relativity as a basic principle, but to write a mathematical proof and to apply it to theoretical physics requires a breadth and depth of knowledge of physics and mathematics beyond what most people have.

Now look, I wouldn't really even care except you went to an extreme: "fucktarded". This goes beyond "I disagree with his views" to the realm of "My views are much superior to his views".

As I said, the Theory of Relativity is a pretty simple concept to explain to the layman, but to apply it in practice, to expand ideas from it, to understand it mathematically and its implications on the interactions of stellar bodies and light and energy requires a breadth and depth of knowledge that is way beyond the layman.

You need to get over yourself, really. You are a layman in the arena of Constitutional law and politics (as we all are unless there are those who have studied law and are actually lawyers); deal with the fact that you may not know nearly as much as Obama when it comes to history, law, and the Constitution.

prodystopian said:
I'm familiar with a guy who received his Bachelors from UC Berkeley and a PhD in Math from U. Michigan, and, despite his good (maybe not as good as Obama, but still good) credentials, I'd take damn near anyone's views over his. He was even an Asst. Prof. at Berkeley for 2 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kaczynski
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His view would only be relevant on the topic of mathematics, in which case, I'm sure he's a highly trained and well educated mathematician. I'd seek his advice on a mathematical proof before I'd seek my wife's (4th grade teacher, masters in special education). The comment in question is with regards to the interpretation of the Constitution, law and nothing else.

Jay seems to think that Obama's interpretation of the Constitution is "fucktarded". I say on the subject of law and the Constitution, Obama has a greater breadth and depth of knowledge.
 
prodystopian said:
No, but just because someone is a genius with a good education doesn't mean he is to be trusted with the fate of our country. If Kaczynski had studied law instead of Math, would you trust him?
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Think about it in terms of expert witnesses allowed in a court: When the issue is constitutional law, you betcha a court will allow a Constitutional law professor to testify as an expert. An assistant professor of math? Not so much.
 
OuterWorldVoice said:
Oh good, so the ammenders were just writing down stream of consciousness stuff, as they ammended. Maybe they were prototyping Finnegan's Wake.
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Amendment only has one "M" so ammender can't be write. Haha, my grammer is inpekable.
 
prodystopian said:
No, but just because someone is a genius with a good education doesn't mean he is to be trusted with the fate of our country. If Kaczynski had studied law instead of Math, would you trust him?
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Who the hell said anything about trusting everyone simply because of having an education?

This is a case of trying to understand why we should take JayDubya's view on the Constitution over Obama's.

Was Ted K a fuck nut? Yes. Does that mean he was a shitty mathematician? No.
 
JayDubya said:
The Constitution says fuckall about the federal government's authority to provide healthcare, and yet...
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It can, however, be argued for under the commerce clause. It can go either way, though.

And I know you'll argue the Tenth Amendment, but it's your opinion that it isn't ambiguous. And I know this argument will get no further because it's just a fundamental difference.
 
JayDubya said:
In the meantime, the states can feel free to initiate their own plans at their leisure. Why the "blue states" want to continue to force their bullshit on the rest of us is beyond me, but it's par for the course.
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You do know that it's the red states that are by-and-large welfare states in terms of federal taxes vs. dollars received, and that without interstate handouts from the blue states, the south would probably collapse in a giant sinkhole of trailers and nascar memorabilia, right?
 
prodystopian said:
No, but just because someone is a genius with a good education doesn't mean he is to be trusted with the fate of our country. If Kaczynski had studied law instead of Math, would you trust him?
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That's a horrible analogy. You have no way of knowing that he'd still be the same person if he had studied law.
 
prodystopian said:
No, but just because someone is a genius with a good education doesn't mean he is to be trusted with the fate of our country. If Kaczynski had studied law instead of Math, would you trust him?
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Also, what reilo said. This is an argument about JayDubya's expertise of the constitution versus Obama's. Would you say that JayDubya knows more about mathematics than Kaczynski?
 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081016/od_uk_nm/oukoe_uk_bookmaker_obama_odd

DUBLIN (Reuters) - Ireland's biggest bookmaker Paddy Power said Thursday it would pay out early more than 1 million euros (782,776 pounds) on bets that Barack Obama will be the next U.S. president, three weeks ahead of the election.

The Dublin-based bookmaker said it made the "unprecedented decision" to pay on bets taken so far, following Wednesday's final campaign debate between Obama and his Republican rival John McCain, which polls judged the Democrat to have won.

"We declare this race well and truly over and congratulate all those who backed Obama," Power said.
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reilo said:
Hey dummy! If you actually paid attention, you'd know I am against NAFTA and giving corporations incentives to take jobs overseas.
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If you were such a an anti-globalist, you wouldn't be supporting Obama. You are only aware of these issues because of this current election and your favored candidate.

But yeah, Clinton's fiscal policies were so bad, that he only left office with a $250bil surplus. What a fucker [in more ways than one! Haaaayooooo!].
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Why do you hang your hat on that brief moment of a budget surplus as some kind of ultimate talking point? Much of those windfalls were due to Clinton "sliding the scale" on tax increases that Bush Sr. passed in the previous administration. Then couple that with the revenues brought in on capital gains during the tech stock explosion and the spending restrictions brought upon by the recently passed BBA of 97 and it's no surprise that money was coming in hand over fist.

We'll just ignore the hemmoraging of jobs in the inner cities and the median wage of the manufacturing worker that was still declining. No, no, no. THERE WAS A BUDGET SURPLUS, BITCHES! Singlehandedly created by the will of Bubba's charm and policies. Ignore the other hands that had their part in that occuring. The winner and their sheep write the history books.

DEMOCRATS WIN. OUR TEAM WON! RAH RAH

So, lets keep blaming the "failed policies of the libertarians" when the Dems/Repubs have their fingerprints all over the actions that have got us to this point.
 
gkrykewy said:
You do know that it's the red states that are by-and-large welfare states in terms of federal taxes vs. dollars received, and that without interstate handouts from the blue states, the south would probably collapse in a giant sinkhole of trailers and nascar memorabilia, right?
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Since that doesn't apply to Texas, by all means bring on the sinkhole. If Kentucky or whatever wants more revenue, tax the people of Kentucky more, or cut Kentucky programs.
 
Has Obama in St. Louis on Saturday been confirmed? Since it's a close race there, I assume he'll be making the stop. :D

Edit: Guess so! :D

Change We Need Rally with Barack Obama

Change We Need Rally
with Barack Obama

Please join us Saturday, October 18th, for a rally with Barack Obama in St. Louis:

Change We Need Rally
with Barack Obama

Under the Gateway Arch
Jefferson National Expansion Memorial
Memorial Dr. and Market St.
St. Louis, MO

Saturday, October 18th
Gates Open: 10:15 a.m.
Program Begins: 12:00 p.m.

The event is free and open to the public; tickets are not required but an RSVP is encouraged.

Space is available on a first-come, first-served basis. Please RSVP using the form to the right.

For security reasons do not bring bags or umbrellas. Please limit personal items. No signs or banners allowed.
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reilo said:
Who the hell said anything about trusting everyone simply because of having an education?

This is a case of trying to understand why we should take JayDubya's view on the Constitution over Obama's.

Was Ted K a fuck nut? Yes. Does that mean he was a shitty mathematician? No.
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Charlie is trying to argue that because Obama has a great education in law, he knows what is best for the country.

And to expand on Charlie's own analogy, just because I have the world's best understanding of the either Theory of Relativity, does not preclude me from having fucktarded views on its application to areas that aren't yet understood.

The analogy is weak, but allow me change it up a bit. We didn't get either Theory of Relativity from someone with a degree from Cambridge. We got them from a patent clerk. Also, there are plenty of professors with impressive degrees and accolades who have absolutely crazy ideas about the universe. I'm sure the same can be said of people with impressive law degrees and their views on how to shape the country.

I'm not arguing for JayDubya or against Obama. What I am saying is that just because Obama has a great education and may know everything about the Constitution and its history, does NOT preclude him from having shitty ideas about what to do with the country.
 
I'm not really for Obama, yet I'm not for McCain either, but, I predict a Reagan1980-like landslide for Obama. I mean, the writing is on the wall.
 
Frank the Great said:
Guys, you're not going to change Jaydub's mind. We've been through this all before, stop shitting on the thread.

Anyway, any new polls out today? ;-)
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Everything on the Presidential front is holding steady. Ras drifted +1 more for McCain.

The real movement is on the House of Representatives front, where the shit is really starting to hit the GOP fan. Polling is showing some endangered GOP incumbents in places that shouldn't even be close.
 
Smiles and Cries said:
This cannot be real

need more sources :lol
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It's just breaking in blogs - right and left - Google News is already indexing the links:

http://gawker.com/5064474/who-is-joe-the-plumber

http://macfaux.wordpress.com/2008/10/15/was-anti-proletariat-petite-bourgeoisie-joe-the-plumber-wurzelbacher-a-secret-agitprop-plant-for-right-wing-reactionary-propaganda-outlet-fox-business-news/

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/10/16/02217/845

Nothing proven yet but the issue was first raised online by Martin Eisenstadt - "an expert on Near Eastern military and political affairs...works alongside Sen. John McCain’s presidential campaign, offering advice...prior to that, he consulted on the Rudolph Giuliani campaign"
 
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