PoliGAF Debate #3 Thread of Hey Joe, where you goin' with that plunger in your hand

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Gruco said:
1) Raising taxes makes Grover Norquist go crazy
2) GUNS
3) Republicans were absolutely terrified of his health care plan. I mean petrified. They truly felt it would have made the voting public swing democratic for a century.

After that it was pretty much a case of Newt being pissed that he couldn't run the country from Cobb County. Something like that.
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What happened to his (Hill's?) health care plan? The Republicans killed it, didn't they?
 
viciouskillersquirrel said:
What happened to his (Hill's?) health care plan? The Republicans killed it, didn't they?
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A lot of things killed it. It was handled REALLY badly in the negotiations.
 
Is Jesse Jackson trying to sabotage Obama? WTF is wrong with this guy?

http://embeds.blogs.foxnews.com/2008/10/14/jackson-zionists-will-lose-influence-under-obama/

The campaigns are sparring over comments by Rev. Jesse Jackson arguing that Barack Obama’s foreign policy will mean an end to “decades of putting Israel’s interests first.”

According to a report in the NY Post today, Jackson told an audience at the World Policy Forum in Evian, France last week that the “Zionists who have controlled American policy for decades” will lose influence under an Obama administration.

“Obama is about change,” Jackson added. “And the change that Obama promises is not limited to what we do in America itself. It is a change of the way America looks at the world and its place in it.”

Obama, who had some early trouble earning the trust of some Jewish voters on the issue of Israel, quickly distanced himself from the comments.

“Rev. Jesse Jackson Sr. is not an adviser to the Obama campaign and is therefore in no position to interpret or share Barack Obama’s views on Israel and foreign policy,” Obama national security spokeswoman Wendy Morigi said in a statement. “As he has made clear throughout his career and throughout this campaign, Barack Obama has a fundamental commitment to a strong U.S.-Israel relationship … As president, he will ensure that Israel can defend itself from every threat it faces, stand with Israel in its quest for a secure peace with its neighbors, and use all elements of American power to end Iran’s illicit nuclear program.”

Jackson reportedly acknowledged that he is just an Obama “supporter” but also described the Democratic nominee as a “neighbor or, better still, a member of the family.”

Meanwhile, the McCain campaign used the report to continue to draw questions about what it says is Obama’s thin record.

“Literally, nobody knows what Barack Obama’s policies would be if he were elected president, but it’s very concerning that people believe he will not be a friend to Israel.”
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He is totally jealous and I think he wants Obama to lose :lol Hopefully it gets drowned out in the debate coverage. Geez...
 
OuterWorldVoice said:
1. Your prior post history paints you as a slightly libertopian republican
2. Meltdowns should be saved for Nov 3rd.
3. wat
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Heh the ol "look, I'm happy where I am, so don't force any government programs built to help people on me!!!"

-but sir, your neighbor isn't so happy

"so."

fail.
 
mAcOdIn said:
Lol. It's ok right? I mean, I could just sleep with as many women as I'd like protected or not and just abort it right? So I don't understand your argument, unless you're claiming I would sleep with a child, which is uncool.
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I think your quote below was where the argument came from. About how you value pride/honor more than standard of living. About being happy not having health insurance. Therefore you wouldn't take care of you child. Oh my child is sick and we don't have insurance, buy hey, we have our pride.

mAcOdIn said:
I think we're at a crossroads. I personally find pride and honor more important than social status and standard of living, so I'm extremely happy making around 20k a year, having just moved up from 12k and still having no health insurance, not owning a home, having a shitty used car with a broken window.
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mAcOdIn said:
Lol, wow. Equality does not even remotely fit in liberalism. If you truly believed that everyone was equal you wouldn't look to hold down one segment of the population to prop up another. That's flat out calling the group you're propping up inferior.

It could maybe, maybe, qualify as fairness, if fairness was charging two men different prices for the same meal, but whatever.
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You're mistaking equity for equality. The liberal belief of equality is simply to even the playing field. Not to take away advantages, but provide sufficient advantages for all so that they can achieve their potential.
We understand that many are disadvantaged, socially, economically, culturally. We seek to redress that situation.

And empathy? Empathy for whom? More like pity. Pity is what allows someone to make the claim that it is better a baby be aborted than grow up in a life still better than than any human outside a fucking prince or czar would have lived less than ah hundred years ago. Oh wow is the lower class that still lives better than like 80% of the world, better make sure no kid has to go through that. It's like no-one can believe we make it out alive, like every town is Escape From New York level if you go down a neighborhood where the average income is less than 20k.
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Empathy is the ability to understand the point of view of others, and even to understand how they've arrived at that point of view. It is in understanding others, and understanding how they've become what they have, that we can seek the root cause of problems and try to rectify them. It is not sympathy; simply feeling sorry for them and wanting to treat them like a child, or a puppy dog.

All too often, republicans try to redress the symptoms, while ignoring the source of the problem, while democrats, tend to be more lenient with the symptoms, while been more focused on the source of the issue.

And it comes through with our stances on abortion; don't get us wrong. We don't desire baby killing anymore than you do. But we understand the need for balancing the needs an actual person, and potential person. You're probably going to take exception to that, but I'd consider at some point, a fetus moves from potential to actual, even while in the womb. Moreover, we consider the needs of the potential person while in fetal form; will their needs be met?

It's cruel and disgusting to suggest that we would want to kill a person just because they're not born or won't be born into a life where their needs are met; we simply suggest that, before they are a person, that the option be given to their life bearer...

And that option should extend to informing them properly about sex, reproduction, and providing them with adequate options should they choose to have sex. While life is a beautiful thing, the potential for life among humans is great... an average human woman could potentially give birth to 20-30 children during her life time. We do not get nearly close to meeting that potential, nor would we want to. The massive resulting famine and strain on resources would be unbearable. Indeed, you'd have a lot of the children been born, starving to death before their 5th birthday.
This. Is. Happening. Not in America... but around the world, this actually happens.

In our modern democratic society, we've erred on the side of quality of life, over bringing potential life to fruition.

Life is important... and we must remember exactly why it is important, by allowing it to be adequately nourished.

It's that self righteous attitude that allows one to claim to support the troops while believing that we're all welfare recruits who joined because we're too dumb or poor to do anything else. Better save them all.
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It's your complete lack of empathy and understanding that fails you here. It's such a damning statement of your point of view... and it's because it fails to adequately consider how potential needs to have the adequate stimulus in place in order to blossom.

It's not unlike criticising more primitive societies for not coming up with maths, when we consider it such a fundamental thing in our society. The point isn't that they're primitive; they have equivalency on an innate, genetic level... they simply need to be given the adequate tools and resources in order to achieve their potential!

No, the Democrats are NOT better than the Republicans. Both are disgusting. One group looks at the lower class as one to be exploited, the other looks at the lower class as a pathetic group of people that need to be saved from themselves for the sake of society.
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A lot of republicans have adopted this position lately. They see the massive failures of the republicans, blinded by hate for the democrats... and they simply give up hope on both sides. They try to bring about equity on both sides, as a way of reducing their culpability in supporting a broken and repeatedly discredited ideology.

Both sides are not equal. It's the greatest disservice that the media and the country has done in recent times, to treat equitable representation as fair representation. There isn't an equality of merit between creationism and evolution. There isn't an equality of merit between global warming deniers, and scientific consensus on climate change.
There isn't an equality of merit between the modern, broken republican party, and the modern invigorated democratic party.
 
GhaleonEB said:
Every time you guys post that, several of us not familiar with betting nomenclature ask what those numbers mean. No one has ever answered; I've asked at least three times. So why bother posting them unless you are going to explain what they mean?
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Its like a Halo K/D ratio, but in reverse.

j/k
if you want to win 1 dollar on Obama you have to bet 7 dollars because he has been deemed a favorite by some margin by the bookmakers. conversely if you bet 1 dollar on McCain and he won you would get 4.50

The potential payout has a proportional relationship with the risk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-odds_gambling
see "money line" section to get the positive negative number thing better.
 
Crayon Shinchan said:
Both sides are not equal. It's the greatest disservice that the media and the country has done in recent times, to treat equitable representation as fair representation. There isn't an equality of merit between creationism and evolution. There isn't an equality of merit between global warming deniers, and scientific consensus on climate change.
There isn't an equality of merit between the modern, broken republican party, and the modern invigorated democratic party.
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Claps.
 
viciouskillersquirrel said:
What happened to his (Hill's?) health care plan? The Republicans killed it, didn't they?
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Yeah like Tama says, one of the big problems is that it came about from a pure policy/"blue ribbbon" perspective rather than being something that the legislature took any part of. As a result, even though the Republicans were a pure minority party, they were able to split enough democrats and more importantly, generate enough public resentment, that it never made it very far. When Newt took over in 1994, health care was officially off the table for the next 14 years.
 
I don't want to imply that Obama has this thing locked up, anything could happen, but when I watched Obama give that electrifying speech in '04, it was the first time I could remember that I responded to a politician. I was transfixed, there was something special about him, and he seemed to his this aura and presence that drew me and others to him. I said to parents sitting next to me, similarly awed, that he would be the next president. Now, that's not a particularly unique prediction at that time. Everyone knew the guy was going places. But I'm so glad I was a part of it. It's like an unfolding saga, an epic journey with very epic moments and events. The '04 speech, the Iowa win, the New Hampshire speech (WOW!), the youth movement, the Wright scandal to which he handled with such maturity and eloquence with the speech on race, the acceptance speech, and the EPIC DNC event at the stadium. This will make a PHENOMENAL documentary. Moore, get on it.
 
I'm nervous for tomorrow :O I want my man Obama to knock it out of the park sooo badly!
 
Gruco said:
Yeah like Tama says, one of the big problems is that it came about from a pure policy/"blue ribbbon" perspective rather than being something that the legislature took any part of. As a result, even though the Republicans were a pure minority party, they were able to split enough democrats and more importantly, generate enough public resentment, that it never made it very far. When Newt took over in 1994, health care was officially off the table for the next 14 years.
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Public resentment? Over health care?
 
ginger27sobamasignjh6.jpg


Heh.

Vicious: Resentment over socialism!
 
Tamanon said:
http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/8844/ginger27sobamasignjh6.jpg[IMG]

Heh.[/QUOTE]
:lol

10 bucks says they take that one, too, despite the message.
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MrCheez said:
I'm nervous for tomorrow :O I want my man Obama to knock it out of the park sooo badly!
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I'm not going to watch this debate. I was too pent up during the last one. Going to hang with the kids and watch the GAF live blog on and off. Make it good!

I'll watch excerpts after it's over.
Tamanon said:
ginger27sobamasignjh6.jpg


Heh.

Vicious: Resentment over socialism!
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Whoops! :lol
 
TheGrayGhost said:
I don't want to imply that Obama has this thing locked up, anything could happen, but when I watched Obama give that electrifying speech in '04, it was the first time I could remember that I responded to a politician. I was transfixed, there was something special about him, and he seemed to his this aura and presence that drew me and others to him. I said to parents sitting next to me, similarly awed, that he would be the next president. Now, that's not a particularly unique prediction at that time. Everyone knew the guy was going places. But I'm so glad I was a part of it. It's like an unfolding saga, an epic journey with very epic moments and events. The '04 speech, the Iowa win, the New Hampshire speech (WOW!), the youth movement, the Wright scandal to which he handled with such maturity and eloquence with the speech on race, the acceptance speech, and the EPIC DNC event at the stadium. This will make a PHENOMENAL documentary. Moore, get on it.
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Edward Norton's got that documentary covered already. :D Still, like you, I remember watching the 2004 speech and was absolutely blown the fuck away. And though I didn't think he'd be the President any time soon, I knew that there was definitely something special about him. If he manages to pull this off, our country's history will be forever changed and we will be the ones remembered for it, even a hundred years from now. Those that vote against him, not so much. :D
 
GhaleonEB said:
I'm not going to watch this debate. I was too pent up during the last one. Going to hang with the kids and watch the GAF live blog on and off. Make it good!

I'll watch excerpts after it's over.
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It's my wife's birthday tomorrow/today, so no live-bating for me. I lose :(
 
viciouskillersquirrel said:
So they hated him because... he did a good job?
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Yes, absolutely. I'm not even sure the Democrats are better than this, as I consider it a natural human instinct. His positions were diametrically opposed to those of the neoconservative movement, and he was succeeding. I think we can agree that seeing opponents succeed so wildly never feels good, but it is particularly so in the brutal demagoguery of American politics.
 
viciouskillersquirrel said:
Yeah, what exactly was their beef with Clinton? He wasn't an outstanding president, but he was competent. I don't get why they went after him with such vitriol.
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Depends on who you mean by "they", but for the Republican party at large, it seems to have mostly been a fundamental ideological divide coupled with extreme partisan rhetoric that was carried forth by certain individuals like Newt Gingrich and Rush Limbaugh. Unpredictable events (Waco, Somalia, Vincent Foster's suicide) and Clinton's shortcomings simply provided ample opportunity for openings on their part, despite his obvious talents. Of course, the combination of losing the presidency after three consecutive terms and regaining the House after decades of being out also likely fueled the desire for some payback.
 
GhaleonEB said:
I'm not going to watch this debate. I was too pent up during the last one. Going to hang with the kids and watch the GAF live blog on and off. Make it good!

I'll watch excerpts after it's over.
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I skipped the first debate and read commentary here instead. For the second one, I watched it and ended-up screaming at the tv. I think I'm skipping the third debate.. I end-up pacing the boards, and my blood pressure goes through the roof, only returning to normal once post-debate snap polling comes in.
 
HylianTom said:
I skipped the first debate and read commentary here instead. For the second one, I watched it and ended-up screaming at the tv. I think I'm skipping the third debate.. I end-up pacing the boards, and my blood pressure goes through the roof, only returning to normal once post-debate snap polling comes in.
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I'm skipping it too. I don't think I can listen to McCain a third time. One more "my friends" could equal one more "my vomit" going into "my toilet".
 
I bake cakes (literally) or make pastries for the most part during the debates, and hit the mute button whenever the Republican speaks. My wife and workplace get tasty food, and I get to stay somewhat sane. I generally have no idea who won the debate save for the comments I read in the thread (kitchen surfing!) while I cook.
 
I just watched John Stewart, there was some clip of a girl talking to McCain saying something like "critics are drinking sand...and that sand is Barack Obama"

Anyone have the link? Looked awkwardly hilarious.
 
mAcOdIn said:
Yep, huge understatement. Obviously I'm another ignorant right leaner. Before I got my current job I was making 12k a year, before that 800 a month. I've never been rich, and I know what it's like to not have enough money to even be able to drive a car or decide on bills or food. Not once was I ever on food stamps or any shit like that.
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If money has never been a concern for you, and you've had enough to achieve what you wanted, then we don't pity you. We don't seek to help you.
If you've ever felt that you were constrained because of your circumstances... then we seek to help. We can't do everything for you... but if you want to be a lawyer, or a doctor... then we want to do what is reasonable, to give you a bit more equality among your peers that are also seeking to be lawyers and doctors. So that you're not so hugely disadvantaged, when you have to make enough money for food, shelter, travel, while your better of peers get to live on campus with all expenses paid, and use the time they save to study with.

Anyways, you're still missing the grand fucking point that Democrats by definition can not be a better party than the Republicans or vice-versa because the whole political system is set up where the winner wants and gets to impose their world views on the loser. If the Democrats or Republicans actually wanted to be a party for all the people they'd have some kind of fucking Opt-in service. How anyone can say that the Republicans want to impose their view on them while claiming the opposite is just beyond me.
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We seek to redress the overall political framework of a nation, and by extension the world (through example). We seek to give people choice, and give them the ability to meet their potential if they so desire.

We do not force or impose our views on individuals, unless they seek harm on others... what they do in their personal life, that doesn't negatively affect another without consent, we leave alone.

We do wish to make sure everyone is informed of their decisions and actions... but once they're adequately equipped, who cares what they do, so long as it doesn't disrupt another.

That's why I don't understand this fucking righteous fist pumping going on. It's delusional. You've convinced yourselves that those who want that lifestyle are of course right and those that don't want it are ignorant and need it anyway, and since it's in my best physical interest(not necessarily mental) feel giddy about forcing it down any ones throat who disagrees.

At least know what you're doing. At least stand up and say it. But to claim some kind of party superiority to me just reeks of hypocrisy and flat out delusional thinking.
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We're giddy, because for the first time in a long time, it looks like the values that we believe will help make the world a better place, will take centre stage for a long time to come. Many of us are pragmatists... we wouldn't countinue endorsing our positions on principle if they weren't proved to work. Sure, you'll always have extremists... but as you say... fuck'em.

We're quickly approaching the point where, the only left clinging onto the republicans are extremists. With the economic crisis, and the overwhelming evidence of incompetence on the republican ticket, the last 8 years of mismanagement... anyone that considers themselves pragmatic and supporting republican are simply delusional... and that's what a lot of extremists are.
 
ZealousD said:
So I was watching this really good summary on PBS on the presidential candidates and their respective campaigns tonight just before TDS sharted. Pretty good summary, I recommend you guys watch it.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/choice2008/view/
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Thanks man, that's was an awesome summary for non-US folks like me who have only started following the campaign in the last month or so and really unaware of a lot of the historcial going on's with both Barack and Mccain respectively.

Very interesting stuff.
 
master15 said:
Thanks man, that's was an awesome summary for non-US folks like me who have only started following the campaign in the last month or so and really unaware of a lot of the historcial going on's with both Barack and Mccain respectively.

Very interesting stuff.
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You now know more than 99% of Americans. No bullshit.
 
RubxQub said:
I'm just about to start chapter 4 of this monster of a documentary, but damn is this well done and insightful.

I'd strongly recommend checking out this thing to all PoliGAFers who have a lot of time to spend getting a good history lesson on both the candidates.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/choice2008/view/1.html
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Just came here to post the same thing. It's awesome to see Frontline tackle the history behind these two people.

The interviews with people deeply involved in his campaign (particularly Axelrod) are very interesting. Though WTF at Jesse being involved.
 
adamsappel said:
I'm kind of gleefully anticipating throwing this phrase back in some people's faces: "If you don't like it, then leave."
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Fixed.
 
Fox318 said:
But their is no way to solve that. I can't relate because of my name but when ever I am filling out an official document I use my birth name.

I know it sucks but if you can't figure out how to fill your name on a legal document then you probably shouldn't vote.
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My last name is St. Clair.

Depending on the restrictions of the databases and applications in question, and the competency/training of data entry clerks, it gets entered as one of the following ways:

STCLAIR
ST CLAIR
ST. CLAIR

It occasionally even gets entered as ST.CLAIR. So I'm very used to having my name not match. The spelling of my name on my driver's license, social security card, voting registration, and passport are not identical, though I assure you that I always fill out forms exactly the same way.

I guess you think people like me have no complaint if we are disenfranchised.
 
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