PoliGAF Debate #3 Thread of Hey Joe, where you goin' with that plunger in your hand

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GhaleonEB said:
what the hell is going on?

Here's what I think has happened the last week or so. I think Obama was doing very very well in the national polls when Palin was the center of attention. All of the Couric interviews didn't do any favors for McCain.

But now, people understand who she is and are looking beyond her-- to the top of the ticket. The focus is back on McCain, and if you look at the detailed post-debate polls, I think he excited those conservative Plumber Joe's that gave up on voting in 2008.

Still, Republicans vs. the Democrats + Independents is a tough hill to climb for McCain.
 
syllogism said:


WOAH! This poll was conducted on the 15th on this month.

Fifty-one percent (51%) believe that raising taxes on those who earn more than $250,000 a year will be good for the economy. Thirty-one percent (31%) believe such a tax hike would hurt.

People in Missouri are smart. They like Obama's tax plan better, even though it raises taxes.
 
Will you Chicken Littles relax? You are wasting Evilore's bandwidth with your panic. McCain in some polls is going to draw close to even next week, before sagging again. However, the state maps won't move as much as the broad polls. Chill.

Obama will go into the election with a comfortable lead and Republicants will stay home in record numbers.

Everything is proceeding exactly as I have foreseen.
 
Mumei said:
Two things

1. Why?
2. Please change back to the KD avatar. I liked it. :(

1. Hopium overdose? "The fact that John McCain has a non-zero chance of winning this election is unfathomable"? Debates further highlighted the differences between the two men?
2. After the election :D (and only if Obama wins!)

OuterWorldVoice said:
Everything is proceeding exactly as I have foreseen.

BUT WHAT IF IT DOESN'T!?!?
 
mckmas8808 said:
WOAH! This poll was conducted on the 15th on this month.

People in Missouri are smart. They like Obama's tax plan better, even though it raises taxes.
The movement in Missouri has been interesting. It's shifted later than the other states, but in the past two weeks polls have really moved.
 
artredis1980 said:
So today's polls


Rasmussen (Even)
Hotline (+1 Obama)
GWU (+1 McCain -1 Obama)
DailyKos/R2k (+1 McCain)
Zogby (-1 Obama)



PROOF: McCain is actually moving up for the 4th straight day, this is not statistical noise anymore

Shit man you got Hotline wrong. McCain was down -1 too.
 
CharlieDigital said:
BUT WHAT IF IT DOESN'T!?!?


Um, well, I was hoping you wouldn't ask that. But if it doesn't, then a terrible jihad will rage across the universe, burning planets and destroying the lives of untold billions, for generations to come. And the flow of spice will end.
 
Fifty-one percent (51%) believe that raising taxes on those who earn more than $250,000 a year will be good for the economy. Thirty-one percent (31%) believe such a tax hike would hurt.

This is why I thought McCain made a mistake. It's one thing to keep saying Obama will raise taxes and just hoping people believe it after a while. But when you start giving out specific numbers, there are more folks who would benefit under Obama's plan. How does that help McCain?

Oh and LMAO @ Fox News using Gallup's traditional poll. These guys are so pathetic...
 
Stoney Mason said:
Lots of us always made fun of the people who masturbated to the polls and especially to 538 Pac Man graphs. No one who has ever been through a political cycle before thinks Obama has a 94.7 percent chance of winning the election.


Actually I do think he has a 90+% chance of winning the election. Explain to me how that analysis is incorrect.
 
Lots of us always made fun of the people who masturbated to the polls and especially to 538 Pac Man graphs. No one who has ever been through a political cycle before thinks Obama has a 94.7 percent chance of winning the election.

Not from the start but if you look at the gambling sites and prediction markets right now, Obama is at 88% and higher...
 
Kildace said:
Wow so Palin has better political instincts than McCain. Color me shocked.


Actually, I am pretty sure Palin didn't beg anyone to do shit. She got that line in her speech and parroted it back.
 
OuterWorldVoice said:
Will you Chicken Littles relax? You are wasting Evilore's bandwidth with your panic. McCain in some polls is going to draw close to even next week, before sagging again. However, the state maps won't move as much as the broad polls. Chill.

Obama will go into the election with a comfortable lead and Republicants will stay home in record numbers.

Everything is proceeding exactly as I have foreseen.
Did you see all of this in one vision or what...?
 
Qwerty710710 said:
635,798 people have voted so far in Georgia.


And so far 36% of those 635K voters have been black. Nate says that if that number can stay above 31% then Obama can win the state.
 
OMG at the corner, that's hilarious.

so the corner is now running with the "Obama's mother was a godless whore who would have kept whoring if she hadn't been prevented from doing so by the laws of wise old men."
 
Cloudy said:
Not from the start but if you look at the gambling sites and prediction markets right now, Obama is at 88% and higher...


Those aren't correct either and will most likely drop as we get closer to election day. All these polls and prediction markets are fine for what they are. Temporary snapshots of collective wisdom at one particular point and time.
 
OuterWorldVoice said:
FUCK OFF OUT OF HERE WITH THAT.

Seriously.

Ronald Reagan may have been aborted if he'd been born after Roe V Wade. What a piece of fucking shit commentary that piece was.


RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE.

You're missing the crucial argument,

Reagen's mother wasn't a whore.
 
Stoney Mason said:
Those aren't correct either and will most likely drop as we get closer to election day. All these polls and prediction markets are fine for what they are. Temporary snapshots of collective wisdom at one particular point and time.


Yeah but overcoming this lead, WITH early voting is something that nobody has done before in history.

The race between Reagan and Carter would have been closer had they had early voting the way we do now.
 
mckmas8808 said:
And so far 36% of those 635K voters have been black. Nate says that if that number can stay above 31% then Obama can win the state.
Just to add to this - I started tossing the daily updates in a spreadsheet to see how it was trending.

50,400 voted yesterday; the past three days (since I started tracking) the rate has gone up: 41k --> 45k --> 50k

The daily black vote is holding pretty steady at 36%. I had assumed they would be a higher proportion of the early vote but they're not dropping off so far.

And the total votes are now 19.3% of all votes cast in 2004, and have nearly matched the total of all early votes cast in 2004. Tomorrow's update will put the early vote ahead of last election.
 
mckmas8808 said:
Yeah but overcoming this lead, WITH early voting is something that nobody has done before in history.

The race between Reagan and Carter would have been closer had they had early voting the way we do now.

Wait, why are you assuming that the early voting is going to be overwhelmingly for Obama? Do we have numbers to back this?
 
The polls have been closing in, but I don't see McCain winning any of the Kerry states, and Obama is going to take IA, NM, and probably CO. Plus I think he'll take VA,NC,FL, and OH with him also.
 
People, do not be ridiculous.

Here, nourish your faith:

IntradeWinwinwin.png
 
mckmas8808 said:
Yeah but overcoming this lead, WITH early voting is something that nobody has done before in history.

The race between Reagan and Carter would have been closer had they had early voting the way we do now.

Oh I agree. My last point on the subject but there is a more than happy medium between panicked despair and joyous elation at winning a 400 electoral vote win. There is realism.
 
GhaleonEB said:
Just to add to this - I started tossing the daily updates in a spreadsheet to see how it was trending.

50,400 voted yesterday; the past three days (since I started tracking) the rate has gone up: 41k --> 45k --> 50k

The daily black vote is holding pretty steady at 36%. I had assumed they would be a higher proportion of the early vote but they're not dropping off so far.

And the total votes are now 19.3% of all votes cast in 2004, and have nearly matched the total of all early votes cast in 2004. Tomorrow's update will put the early vote ahead of last election.
You guys talking about Georgia?

Oh, and I'd be willing to do the Electoral Map Prediction thread if nobody minds. It'd give me something to do.
 
OuterWorldVoice said:
Actually, I am pretty sure Palin didn't beg anyone to do shit. She got that line in her speech and parroted it back.
I was thinking this last night. She doesn't really come off as someone who fully understands or believes what she's talking about. You can tell she's just trying her best to remember what she has been told/taught by McCain in the past five or six weeks.
 
Just to put things in perspective for you guys freaking out a little bit, I've been re-reading Poligaf circa October 2004 and some of this is actually pretty interesting:

CNN/Gallup/USA Today from 10/17/2004. I.E. the exact same point into election season and we are now

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19308

The graph isn't posted but Bush is up by 8 points. We'll see how Bams does today, but I suspect he'll be up by 7 or 8 in today's gallup.



Zogby analysis from 10/20/2004

Undecideds
* The undecided vote is down to about 6% of voters. If the undecideds vote, they'll vote for Kerry. But the question is if they vote. This number has been unchanged since March 2004. In past elections in March the number of undecideds is around 20-25%.
* He is actively tracking the undecideds in focus groups in key states such as Florida. He takes care to maintain the same proportion of political affiliations in these groups to keep consistency.
* Both candidates get 47% each just for showing up. The election is bigger than the two personalities involved. The 5 or 6% of undecideds are a very fluid group.
* Those that move from (say) the Kerry camp to undecided do NOT move to Bush. Zogby was very clear that once they move out of a camp, a voter then tosses up between not voting or voting for "their" candidate. Very few are prepared to jump across the gap to the other candidate.
* Bush cannot do anything to persuade these undecideds. All he can do is keep challenging Kerry and raising enough questions about him that it keeps the undecideds at home. He's done a good job of this. He's made it hard for people to support Kerry because the US cannot pull out of Iraq so there's little Kerry can do; it's unlikely multilateral support will stream in for Iraq regardless; and there's little Kerry can do to fund his education and health plans given the big deficits, even with his tax hike on the wealthy.
* A key question on the minds of undecideds is "Can Kerry deliver his promises?"

Tactics
* He cannot understand why the Democrats have pulled out of Arizona, Colorado and Missouri, among others. His polling is showing those states as close enough to at least force the Republicans onto the back foot. He also thinks the Democrats lost momentum in the South after appointing John Edwards, especially in potentially winnable Virginia and North Carolina.
* The Presidential debates shored up Kerry's base, dragging back some Democrat voters whom may not otherwise have voted at all. That was the only impact of the debates.

The Christian Conservative Myth
* The 4 million Christian Conservatives (CCs) that Karl Rove obsesses about are a myth. He has done extensive polling and found no evidence that there were large numbers of CCs who chose to stay at home in 2000. As Zogby put it, why would these people choose not to vote knowing that could land Al Gore in the White House? His polling shows these are highly motivated voters.

Red vs. Blue
* This election is a repeat of 2000 in many ways, and Florida and Ohio are the key states this time.
* The "Armageddon Election": the US has 2 equal sized warring factions divided ideologically, demographically and culturally. Cicero at Winds of Change has an interesting post on the same lines.
* Poll done back in December 2003:
- Percentage whom worship at least once a week: Red 54%, Blue 32%
- Percentage orientated to God: Red 75%, Blue 51%
- Red define God in moral absolutes; Blue in moral relativity
- Percentage owning guns: Red 58%, Blue 38%
* The key difference: married vs. singles whom have never married. On every poll this is the key predictor of voting intention, even when broken down by sex and age.

The Missing Centre
* In the past the candidates tend to move to the centre in the last few weeks of the campaign and sound similar as they fight over the middle ground. This time each candidate is talking to their bases as if the centre doesn't exist - because it doesn't.
* Why is the centre missing? Bush won in 2000 with 48% of the popular vote but rather than reaching for the centre, he started out from the right (Zogby though this was a squandered opportunity). The 4 million Christian Conservative "myth" of Karl Rove meant Bush wanted to pander to them to shore his support up and push his numbers up over 50% and hold them there for 4 years, rather than reach across to conservative Al Gore voters. This explains why Bush quickly rescinded Clinton's environmental orders and decision on Government money for family planning groups that support abortion - he was chasing the CCs. On September 1, 2001 Bush was at 49%.
* The "rubber ball" analogy: Bush had three poll bounces since 2001, but each one has been shallower and shorter than the next.
* Post 9/11 he went to 85% and Bush started by responding. Zogby notes the Sept 20th speech to Congress and the incident when Bush was talking to a group of iron workers, police and firefighters at Ground Zero (when some called out "We can't hear you", Bush responded "I can hear you. The rest of the world hears you. And the people who knocked these buildings down will hear from of all us soon," as two key attempts to connect with the entire population.
* However with 10 days of 9/11 Zogby did a poll, asking do you support the War on Terror (WoT)? 91% said yes. When asked would the support the WoT if it lasted one year, it went down to 77%; for 2 years, down to 67% and more than 2 years 55%. Zogby took this to mean the US still suffered from a post-Vietnam syndrome of wanting wars won quickly and troops out of harms way as quickly as possible.
* Fast forward to March 2003, just prior to the bombing of Baghdad. Bush's approval is at 53%. Post bombing bounces to 67% but the bounce didn't last long: by mid-May he was back to 50% and it didn't budge. Over the (northern) Summer of 2003 the opposition to the war on Iraq turned angry, and that is the first time that talk of the "stolen" 2000 election emerged.
* The final bounce. In December 2003, when Sadaam was captured, Bush went to 56% but within 2 weeks was back to 50% again.

The Democrats
* Before the primaries started 66 - 73% of registered Democrats in key states thought they couldn't beat Bush. When asked, they stated in 2:1 ratio they wanted someone they believed in rather than someone who could beat Bush. This explains the rise of Howard Dean. By December Dean was up 7% in Iowa, 36% in New Hampshire and a couple of points in South Carolina. Dean's problem was the primaries happened too late. Zogby cannot explain why but he didn't poll between Christmas and New Year. When polling restarted in January 2004 suddenly things shifted. The new polls had 85% of Democrats thought a Democrat could beat Bush and now in 3:1 ratio they wanted someone who could win.
* John Kerry was the last man standing in Iowa, despite until then running a woeful (my notes say shit, but I don't think Zogby used that word) campaign. There had been too much "nuance" and explanations that would fit trains, not bumper stickers. Zogby said "Presidential candidates need bumper stickers, not trains." Suddenly in January 2004 his message was simplified to three points: I can win, I'm a veteran and I'm experienced. He gained a point a day while Gephardt and Dean lost a point a day each and so once Kerry won Iowa the momentum was unstoppable. On Jan 10th Kerry was at 10% in Iowa; once his numbers crossed Dean's then Kerry's numbers took off and didn't look back.
* A key quote from a Kerry staffer: "John always knows when his homework is due." The Presidential debate was another example of this, getting the message right at the right time (although hopefully not too late).

Key States
* Penn., Ohio, Michigan, Iowa, Wisconsin and Florida. Each one is very close. His latest numbers are showing 46 Kerry 45 Bush but no clues on the undecideds still.
* The potential surprise states are Bush in Iowa and Wisconsin and Kerry in Virginia, New Hampshire and Colorado.


Money
* It is unusual but at this stage of the race Kerry has more money than Bush to spend.
* Kerry's fundraising efforts were greatly assisted by a motivated base and by good use of the internet, learning from Howard Dean.

The Running
* The race is Kerry's to lose, barring unforeseen events. If he loses, it is only his fault.
* Why? Because Bush's numbers have not gone above 48%. Three other key polling indicators are all terrible for Bush amongst undecideds:
- Presidential job performance: 35% positive versus 60% negative
- Is the country headed in the right direction? net negative
- Does the President deserve re-election? 15% yes versus 40% no.
These numbers have always been net negative for Bush amongst undecideds. The last 3 Presidents with those numbers were Carter, Ford and Bush snr. None won.
* Another reason: undecideds tend to break for the challenger. Zogby sees them going like in Reagan in 1980, so that the margin is 2% but it is the same in each key state and it is in favour of Kerry, thus the Electoral Vote ends in a decisive victory.
* A higher turnout favours Kerry. 2000 election had 105 million voters. Anything over 107 million this time and Kerry will win.
* The youth vote: always heavily Democrat, this time the youth vote are unusually motivated and may turn out in bigger numbers than expected, tipping the race to Kerry.
* If the focus of the final two weeks is the War on Terror ---> Bush wins
If the focus of the final two weeks is Iraq and/or domestic issues ---> Kerry wins.
* If the result is like in 2000 there will be masses and months of litigation. Neither side will back down and it will be complete chaos, far worse than 2000.

Nader
* Nader is a spent force and irrelevant to the campaign. He does not take votes from Kerry.
* Voters for Nader would otherwise have not voted at all, so no loss to either side.

The mobile phone question
* What is the impact of the increased use of mobile phones on the accuracy of polling?
* 6% of all adults and 15% of under 30s have only mobiles, with no land line phone. Does this introduce a bias in polling?
* Zogby has tested this and seen no reason to expect these mobile-only adults will be any different (i.e. there is no anti-liberal bias).
* On a slightly different question, young voters are always under-represented in polling and Zogby weights to increase their representation. He is using higher weights this time compared to 2000 due to increased activism.

Differences between polls
* While being diplomatic, Zogby basically said Gallup's numbers are junk. They use different methodologies but Gallup's variations from poll to poll are too big to be creditable. In Zogby's polling Kerry and Bush both bounce between 44 an 48, and haven't deviated from that range.
* Zogby maintains the same proportions of party affiliations in each poll as he doesn't think that number changes much, which cuts the variability down.
* He was emphatic there is no bias in his or any other polling organisation he knows. To have bias would be the death of any polling firm.

Asia in the election
* There are three Asian issues in this election: North Korea, the Chinese currency, Taiwan. [Ed. - there's also a fourth, outsourcing, but that was overlooked despite it perhaps being the most prominent issue of the four.]
* Of the three, only North Korea is figuring in people's minds. 37% say North Korea is the US's number 1 military threat.
* There is an ironic difference on this issue: it is the only one where Kerry is a unilateralist whereas Bush prefers a multilateral approach.

Internet, blogs and the election
[Ed. - I'll note that I asked Zogby about the impact of the internet and blogs on the election, so this was a prompted answer rather than part of his speech.]
* The impact of the internet has been huge. In 1996 about 4% of voters got most of their political information from the net. In 2000 it was 31%. For 2004 it will be in excess of 50%.
* The second key impact has been in fundraising. Firstly Howard Dean, then John Kerry have used the internet to balance out and neutralise the fundraising power of Bush and the Republicans. Ironically Al Gore, the "father" of the net, didn't capture this avenue in 2000.
* Blogs: Zogby saw these as important, with each having its own constituency. However they are unlikely to change minds; instead "they serve to stoke the fires of anger." In other words, blogs are preaching to the converted.
* Zogby reads Real Clear Politics daily but I didn't get a chance to find out if he follows any others.

Zogby: "Polling is 80% science and 20% art."

And finally:

Zogby: "The race is Kerry's to lose" (although others see it the other way around).

That election was ALOT closer than this one around the same period before the election, and Kerry came within a hair of winning. But Kerry's strategic lay out and ground game weren't nearly strong as Obama's.
 
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