Poligaf episode 2010: The Empire Strikes Back

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state-of-the-art said:
This frustrates me to no end. I never understood why we have such an aversion to taxes, even in the most worthwhile cases like infrastructure or education. It's absurd.

I think propaganda was too harsh against communism in the cold war. I think it enabled the far right fringe to have a disproportionately large stranglehold over policy.

I remember Eisenhower's writing:

Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things. Among them are H. L. Hunt (you possibly know his background), a few other Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or business man from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid.
 
The Experiment said:
I doubt we'll invade Iran. The US simply can't afford it.

Either way, the GOP run congress will be a disaster. I expect lots of foot dragging or outright denial of anything Obama and the Democrats want to get done. I expect the GOP to pass many wildly unrealistic bills for the sole purpose of Obama vetoing them, which will make them look good to the tea partiers and radio talk show hosts. I also expect a lot of general nuttery like what we experienced with the Republican Revolution of 1994. All of it is geared for ammunition for the 2012 race. Republicans have shown time and time again that they care more about their viability vs. actually doing anything.
My friend, 1994 will be comparatively sane to the current crop of Republicans. Expect an unprecedented showcase of nuttery.
 
I just finished reading Michael Smith's Killer Elite: The Inside Story of America's Most Secret Special Operations Team.

I recommend it for anybody who wants to feel icy fury towards the obstructionist bullshit of the CIA and the counter-intuitive way that risk-averse philosophies actually got a lot of folks killed in the 80s and 90s.

Also for anybody who wants horror-stories of American missions in Iran.

It's a more sophisticated book than the junk title suggests.
 
The Experiment said:
Either way, the GOP run congress will be a disaster. I expect lots of foot dragging or outright denial of anything Obama and the Democrats want to get done.

You say this like it's a bad thing. The less Congress is able to pass the better, IMO.

And if there is one thing I have learned from this past year it's that the democrats must be stopped, and not only because they threaten to spend us into serfdom. The insanity I see from many on the left is troubling, to say the least: hateful, self-assured to the point of narcissism, and completely clueless...a dangerous combination. I didn't vote for the Obama who tells partisan jokes at White House events, who then whines when he can't achieve bi-partisan results; I didn't vote for the Obama who shreds GWB on civil liberty issues only to personally extend the Patriot Act, among other things.

Not to imply that the GOP (or Tea Party) is a beacon of hope for the future either. Personally, though, I hope that the GOP gets its act together and offers up a worthwhile candidate--someone intellectual with a normal ego--next election cycle. Lord knows many people, a rapidly increasing number, are ready to kick the democrats to the curb. The government is absolutely out of control.
 
nyong said:
You say this like it's a bad thing. The less Congress is able to pass the better, IMO.

And if there is one thing I have learned from this past year it's that the democrats must be stopped, and not only because they threaten to spend us into serfdom. The insanity I see from many on the left is troubling, to say the least: hateful, self-assured to the point of narcissism, and completely clueless...a dangerous combination. I didn't vote for the Obama who tells partisan jokes at White House events, who then whines when he can't achieve bi-partisan results; I didn't vote for the Obama who shreds GWB on civil liberty issues only to personally extend the Patriot Act, among other things.

Not to imply that the GOP (or Tea Party) is a beacon of hope for the future either. Personally, though, I hope that the GOP gets its act together and offers up a worthwhile candidate--someone intellectual with a normal ego--next election cycle. Lord knows many people, a rapidly increasing number, are ready to kick the democrats to the curb. The government is absolutely out of control.

Ah I see now, you are joke poster, duly noted.
 
ToxicAdam said:
Why is that a joke post? That's what about 35 percent of the public feels like. I hear it every day.

A joke in effect, not in intent. Absurdity-poster might be a superior description.
 
nyong said:
You say this like it's a bad thing. The less Congress is able to pass the better, IMO.

And if there is one thing I have learned from this past year it's that the democrats must be stopped, and not only because they threaten to spend us into serfdom. The insanity I see from many on the left is troubling, to say the least: hateful, self-assured to the point of narcissism, and completely clueless...a dangerous combination. I didn't vote for the Obama who tells partisan jokes at White House events, who then whines when he can't achieve bi-partisan results; I didn't vote for the Obama who shreds GWB on civil liberty issues only to personally extend the Patriot Act, among other things.

Not to imply that the GOP (or Tea Party) is a beacon of hope for the future either. Personally, though, I hope that the GOP gets its act together and offers up a worthwhile candidate--someone intellectual with a normal ego--next election cycle. Lord knows many people, a rapidly increasing number, are ready to kick the democrats to the curb. The government is absolutely out of control.
:lol

Out of control? Really?
 
The Experiment said:
I think propaganda was too harsh against communism in the cold war. I think it enabled the far right fringe to have a disproportionately large stranglehold over policy.

I remember Eisenhower's writing:

It's possible, yes. It's just that after nearly 30 years of supply-side economics, and all evidence to the contrary, the idea that government is evil continues to promulgate ceaselessly.

That's an excellent quote, thank you.
 
nyong said:
You say this like it's a bad thing. The less Congress is able to pass the better, IMO.
With people like you around, why the fuck do we even bother having a government? God I hate pretentious pricks like you who want some kind of anarchical corporatocracy. You're the assholes that hold this country back, and I hate your fucking guts for cancelling out my vote with your ignorant bullshit
 
Pretty epic New Yorker piece on cap and trade and why it failed.


On March 31st, Obama announced that large portions of U.S. waters in the Gulf of Mexico, the Arctic Ocean, and off the East Coast—from the mid-Atlantic to central Florida—would be newly available for oil and gas drilling. Two days later, he said, “It turns out, by the way, that oil rigs today generally don’t cause spills. They are technologically very advanced. Even during Katrina, the spills didn’t come from the oil rigs, they came from the refineries onshore.” From the outside, it looked as if the Obama Administration were coördinating closely with Democrats in the Senate. Republicans and the oil industry wanted more domestic drilling, and Obama had just given it to them. He seemed to be delivering on the grand bargain that his aides had talked about at the start of the Administration.

But there had been no communication with the senators actually writing the bill, and they felt betrayed. When Graham’s energy staffer learned of the announcement, the night before, he was “apoplectic,” according to a colleague. The group had dispensed with the idea of drilling in ANWR, but it was prepared to open up vast portions of the Gulf and the East Coast. Obama had now given away what the senators were planning to trade.

This was the third time that the White House had blundered. In February, the President’s budget proposal included $54.5 billion in new nuclear loan guarantees. Graham was also trying to use the promise of more loan guarantees to lure Republicans to the bill, but now the White House had simply handed the money over. Later that month, a group of eight moderate Democrats sent the E.P.A. a letter asking the agency to slow down its plans to regulate carbon, and the agency promised to delay any implementation until 2011. Again, that was a promise Kerry, Graham, and Lieberman wanted to negotiate with their colleagues. Obama had served the dessert before the children even promised to eat their spinach. Graham was the only Republican negotiating on the climate bill, and now he had virtually nothing left to take to his Republican colleagues.
 
GaimeGuy said:
With people like you around, why the fuck do we even bother having a government? God I hate pretentious pricks like you who want some kind of anarchical corporatocracy. You're the assholes that hold this country back, and I hate your fucking guts for cancelling out my vote with your ignorant bullshit


You sound so mad.
 
nyong said:
You say this like it's a bad thing. The less Congress is able to pass the better, IMO.

And if there is one thing I have learned from this past year it's that the democrats must be stopped, and not only because they threaten to spend us into serfdom. The insanity I see from many on the left is troubling, to say the least: hateful, self-assured to the point of narcissism, and completely clueless...a dangerous combination. I didn't vote for the Obama who tells partisan jokes at White House events, who then whines when he can't achieve bi-partisan results; I didn't vote for the Obama who shreds GWB on civil liberty issues only to personally extend the Patriot Act, among other things.

Not to imply that the GOP (or Tea Party) is a beacon of hope for the future either. Personally, though, I hope that the GOP gets its act together and offers up a worthwhile candidate--someone intellectual with a normal ego--next election cycle. Lord knows many people, a rapidly increasing number, are ready to kick the democrats to the curb. The government is absolutely out of control.

What bills that the administration has signed do you have a problem with?
 
nyong said:
You say this like it's a bad thing. The less Congress is able to pass the better, IMO.

And if there is one thing I have learned from this past year it's that the democrats must be stopped, and not only because they threaten to spend us into serfdom. The insanity I see from many on the left is troubling, to say the least: hateful, self-assured to the point of narcissism, and completely clueless...a dangerous combination. I didn't vote for the Obama who tells partisan jokes at White House events, who then whines when he can't achieve bi-partisan results; I didn't vote for the Obama who shreds GWB on civil liberty issues only to personally extend the Patriot Act, among other things.

Not to imply that the GOP (or Tea Party) is a beacon of hope for the future either. Personally, though, I hope that the GOP gets its act together and offers up a worthwhile candidate--someone intellectual with a normal ego--next election cycle. Lord knows many people, a rapidly increasing number, are ready to kick the democrats to the curb. The government is absolutely out of control.
Wow. You're like another Drakesfortune....
 
GaimeGuy said:
With people like you around, why the fuck do we even bother having a government? God I hate pretentious pricks like you who want some kind of anarchical corporatocracy. You're the assholes that hold this country back, and I hate your fucking guts for cancelling out my vote with your ignorant bullshit

Such a quality and worthwhile response.
 
Salazar said:
His post>your post.

Besides, it was post and run bullshit. Nyong doesn't want to talk.

My point being that the flat out disregard of anything he says as even being remotely viable (by seemingly each subsequent poster) is kind of unbelievable.
 
DownLikeBCPowder said:
My point being that the flat out disregard of anything he says as even being remotely viable (by seemingly each subsequent poster) is kind of unbelievable.

I am still waiting for his response to me. I simply asked what bills he found objectionable.
 
DownLikeBCPowder said:
My point being that the flat out disregard of anything he says as even being remotely viable (by seemingly each subsequent poster) is kind of unbelievable.

I've responded as best I can (and to the extent that I can be bothered) in-text below.

You say this like it's a bad thing. The less Congress is able to pass the better, IMO. BULLSHIT. PATHETIC ATTITUDE.

And if there is one thing I have learned from this past year it's that the democrats must be stopped, and not only because they threaten to spend us into serfdom.HYSTERIA. The insanity I see from many on the left is troubling, to say the least: hateful, self-assured to the point of narcissism, and completely clueless...a dangerous combination. VAGUE INSULTS. I didn't vote for the Obama who tells partisan jokes at White House events WHO GIVES A SHIT ?, who then whines when he can't achieve bi-partisan results WHOSE FAULT IS THAT ? YOU MEAN HIS JOKES SUNK LEGISLATION ? WHO'S BEING CHILDISH NOW ?; I didn't vote for the Obama who shreds GWB on civil liberty issues only to personally extend the Patriot Act, among other things. YOU HAVE A BIT OF A POINT HERE.

Not to imply that the GOP (or Tea Party) is a beacon of hope for the future either. YOU'RE DAMN RIGHT THEY AIN'T.Personally, though, I hope that the GOP gets its act together and offers up a worthwhile candidate--someone intellectual with a normal ego--next election cycle.YEP. DON'T LOOK LIKELY, THOUGH. Lord knows many people, a rapidly increasing number, are ready to kick the democrats to the curb. NAH, WE COOL. FRUSTRATED, BUT COOL. The government is absolutely out of control. WOOPS, YOU SIGNED OFF ON A LUNATIC NOTE.
 
nyong said:
You say this like it's a bad thing. The less Congress is able to pass the better, IMO.

And if there is one thing I have learned from this past year it's that the democrats must be stopped, and not only because they threaten to spend us into serfdom. The insanity I see from many on the left is troubling, to say the least: hateful, self-assured to the point of narcissism, and completely clueless...a dangerous combination. I didn't vote for the Obama who tells partisan jokes at White House events, who then whines when he can't achieve bi-partisan results; I didn't vote for the Obama who shreds GWB on civil liberty issues only to personally extend the Patriot Act, among other things.

Not to imply that the GOP (or Tea Party) is a beacon of hope for the future either. Personally, though, I hope that the GOP gets its act together and offers up a worthwhile candidate--someone intellectual with a normal ego--next election cycle. Lord knows many people, a rapidly increasing number, are ready to kick the democrats to the curb. The government is absolutely out of control.

yeah, the democrats should totally be stopped from things like giving gays equal protection in the military just like in very other fucking military.
 
DownLikeBCPowder said:
My point being that the flat out disregard of anything he says as even being remotely viable (by seemingly each subsequent poster) is kind of unbelievable.

This would be fair but for two things

1. He is hardly a new poster, we know his schtick
2. It gets tiresome seeing people who voted for Obama out of desperation from a brief moment of sanity, as opposed to actually ascribing to any of his policy initiatives, bitching about him and congress being out of control. Of course you don't like what he's doing, you thought he was going to be a Gingricht Republican. (though he's basically a Reagan Republican, but people with no policy insight can't seem to grasp that)
 
DownLikeBCPowder said:
My point being that the flat out disregard of anything he says as even being remotely viable (by seemingly each subsequent poster) is kind of unbelievable.

I'll try to refute what his kick the can down the road attitude entails. So he is upset with Obama. I can understand the problem with the civil liberties and a weak financial band aid, but the stimulus? healthcare reform? Afraid not unless he agrees we did not do enough of both. These were the two major policies that the president has enacted in the past 2 years.

Before he was even elected and the stimulus demonized you had rational republicans calling for one. Look at Martin Feldstein. Back in October of 2008, the man who wanted to privatize social security, who headed the Bush White House NBER, was calling for a temporary government run spending program (his words) because the tax rebates that Bush gave did not work because 80% of them were saved. Now a days you can find attack ads against Democrats because they supported the stimulus, It was a bailout. It gave money to illegal immigrants. It failed (or it did not do enough because it was too small thanks to the right). Those that are conservative seem like they cannot understand the word temporary versus something permanent like the Bush tax cuts. We'll get to those later.

Now with healthcare reform something that is not repeated enough is that Obama cut a government program, Medicare. And why did he do that. Because of this:
entitlementsandrevs.jpg


That is where the deficit that all on the right are complaining about is coming from. And not one republican wanted to fix this problem. Instead, they like you wanted to kick the problem down the road for someone else to deal with. Someone like me, who is 25 years old, or my future children. They want to undo all of this. They want to increase the size of government
medicare_numbers_gdp.jpg
.

They also do not want to stop there. Here is another government program that the right support that will cost a ton of money and violate a ton of civil liberties Senator Orrin Hatch supports drug testing those that receive unemployment benefits. So I feel much safer with them in charge of the government and its purse strings.

Now with the tax cuts. If you enact the whole package guess what is going to happen. You kick the cost down the road just like you want. They will have to be paid by somebody. So I rather some rich millionaire having to pay a few thousand now than me and my prodigy having to cover the tab with interest later. All the Republicans are a lot of hot air with no new ideas. Their whole plan of tax cuts, repeal of healthcare (which hasn't been implemented yet), and no clean energy bill (not in existence because it doesn't have the votes, ie some Democrats live in dirty energy states) will not save us. I rather swim with the piranhas that are the Democrats, than be saved by crocodiles that are the Republicans.
 
Well this sucks:

No Social Security Cost of Living Adjustment in 2011

WASHINGTON (Oct. 10) - As if voters don't have enough to be angry about this election year, the government is expected to announce this week that more than 58 million Social Security recipients will go through another year without an increase in their monthly benefits.

It would mark only the second year without an increase since automatic adjustments for inflation were adopted in 1975. The first year was this year.

"If you're the ruling party, this is not the sort of thing you want to have happening two weeks before an election," said Andrew Biggs, a former deputy commissioner at the Social Security Administration and now a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute.

"It's not the congressional Democrats' fault, but that's the way politics works," Biggs said. "A lot of people will feel hostile about it."


Sponsored Links The cost-of-living adjustments, or COLAs, are automatically set each year by an inflation measure that was adopted by Congress back in the 1970s. Based on inflation so far this year, the trustees who oversee Social Security project there will be no COLA for 2011.

The projection will be made official on Friday, when the Bureau of Labor Statistics releases inflation estimates for September. The timing couldn't be worse for Democrats as they approach an election in which they are in danger of losing their House majority, and possibly their Senate majority as well.

This past Friday, the same bureau delivered another painful blow to Democrats: The U.S. lost 95,000 jobs in September and unemployment remained stubbornly stuck at 9.6 percent.

Democrats have been working hard to make Social Security an election-year issue, running political ads and holding press conferences to accuse Republicans of plotting to privatize the national retirement program.
 
Jason's Ultimatum said:
Well this sucks:

No Social Security Cost of Living Adjustment in 2011

I can see alot of pissed off seniors blaming the Dems and voting Republican because of this. Then again I guess most of them were going to vote Republican anyway.

Either way, Dems looked more and more fucked every day.
 
No inflation, no COLA. It's not rocket science.

Of course, all these old people think government spending is out of control, so they'll applaud this prudence, right?

Fucking hypocrites, every one of them.
 
happyfunball said:
Wow, that's just depressing. Expected more from this administration than stupid mistakes like that for important legislation.

The Obama administration pretty much bungles up everything. Which is while the teabagger ascendancy is concerning, I'm not too sympathetic at the Democrat party's plight.
 
Jason's Ultimatum said:
Well this sucks:

No Social Security Cost of Living Adjustment in 2011

This warms my heart. Screw the geriatrics and their medicare-funded Hoverounds that are voting overwhelmingly for anti-govt lunatics.
 
The Experiment said:
The Obama administration pretty much bungles up everything. Which is while the teabagger ascendancy is concerning, I'm not too sympathetic at the Democrat party's plight.


That's another huge thing I took away from the article. The Republican establishment is absolutely petrified of the tea party and has been so for a year now. So, even though their (absolute) numbers are small, they have held huge influence over American politics/policy for much of the year now.

It makes you wonder that if there were no tea party, if more Republicans wouldn't have horse-traded their way into supporting other Obama bills.
 
ToxicAdam said:
That's another huge thing I took away from the article. The Republican establishment is absolutely petrified of the tea party and has been so for a year now. So, even though their (absolute) numbers are small, they have held huge influence over American politics/policy for much of the year now.

It makes you wonder that if there were no tea party, if more Republicans wouldn't have horse-traded their way into supporting other Obama bills.

Absolutely they would have. That is the power of popular movements (even those that are substantially orchestrated from above). And if there would have been a left movement as big as the tea party movement instead of the tea party, we would have something like single payer health care.
 
empty vessel said:
Absolutely they would have. That is the power of popular movements (even those that are substantially orchestrated from above). And if there would have been a left movement as big as the tea party movement instead of the tea party, we would have something like single payer health care.



I still think the lobbyists hold too much sway to overcome that hurdle. Obama knew why health care failed in 1993 and made sure the pharma/insurance industry was on board from the get-go.

Al Gore in that article:

“The influence of special interests is now at an extremely unhealthy level,” Gore said. “And it’s to the point where it’s virtually impossible for participants in the current political system to enact any significant change without first seeking and gaining permission from the largest commercial interests who are most affected by the proposed change.”
 
ToxicAdam said:
That's another huge thing I took away from the article. The Republican establishment is absolutely petrified of the tea party and has been so for a year now. So, even though their (absolute) numbers are small, they have held huge influence over American politics/policy for much of the year now.

It makes you wonder that if there were no tea party, if more Republicans wouldn't have horse-traded their way into supporting other Obama bills.

Of course.

We've seen a lot of tea partiers beat out incumbent Republicans in primaries. Some of them conservative Republicans. Compromising or dealing with the current administration would probably mean that they'd be out on their asses.

Of course that is a pretty big assumption. My feeling is that the GOP would be very resistant to Democrats, tea party or not. It is just the standard fare in polarized politics these days.
 
At one point, people were in favor of a public option but Congress kind of puttered around at that moment. I think the foot dragging, even Democratic foot dragging, was designed so once the public option would eventually fall out of favor, they would then pass it.

The health care bill is a Frankenstein POS, which proves that Al Gore quote correctly.
 
The Experiment said:
At one point, people were in favor of a public option but Congress kind of puttered around at that moment. I think the foot dragging, even Democratic foot dragging, was designed so once the public option would eventually fall out of favor, they would then pass it.

The health care bill is a Frankenstein POS, which proves that Al Gore quote correctly.
How is it a POS?
 
empty vessel said:
Absolutely they would have. That is the power of popular movements (even those that are substantially orchestrated from above). And if there would have been a left movement as big as the tea party movement instead of the tea party, we would have something like single payer health care.

I doubt that. Remember the tea party advocates corporate interests disguised as populist activism. A liberal tea party would presumably advocate for interests that don't benefit corporations (outside of cap and trade of course *daps ToxicAdam*) like single payer. Given democrats expectation that they can do anything and still receive liberal votes, I can't imagine such a movement being as "effective" as the tea party.

I'd love to have a passionate, loud left still though
 
ToxicAdam said:
I still think the lobbyists hold too much sway to overcome that hurdle. Obama knew why health care failed in 1993 and made sure the pharma/insurance industry was on board from the get-go.

Al Gore in that article:

But that's been the case pretty much throughout American history, at least since the rise of industrial capitalism. Popular movements can overcome that and have in the past. It's the only thing that can overcome it.
 
They needed 51 votes to add the public option in reconciliation. 50 really if you think about Biden as the potential tie-breaker. It's fucking inexcusable that they didn't do it, bargain or no.
 
I'm sure it's been said before but does anybody feel that we are stuck in a vicious election cycle of pissed off voters because the politicians rarely do what they want? With the ever-growing influence of international corporations in politics, it's expected that the politicians decreasing enact policies that satisfy the electorate. So, no matter who wins, the voters will always be disappointed and pissed-off after a short while and "vote the bums out" for new bums. Likely a severe over-simplification of the process but it seems like a fairly regular cycle at the moment.
 
That has been the case for many a cycle.

Much like the EU has been described as post parliamentary, the US is probably in a post republic system. Grass roots politics is still alive and well in the lower levels but forget about the upper levels of politics. These days a candidate needs almost a billion dollars to run for President and I heard Meg Whitman has spent about $100 million in the California race. That is simply too much money for any grass roots organization. You need to sidle up to corporate interests to cover you.
 
The Experiment said:
That has been the case for many a cycle.

Much like the EU has been described as post parliamentary, the US is probably in a post republic system. Grass roots politics is still alive and well in the lower levels but forget about the upper levels of politics. These days a candidate needs almost a billion dollars to run for President and I heard Meg Whitman has spent about $100 million in the California race. That is simply too much money for any grass roots organization. You need to sidle up to corporate interests to cover you.

Please tell me how the health reform bill was a pos.
 
ToxicAdam said:
Pretty epic New Yorker piece on cap and trade and why it failed.
Man, that's a great but depressing piece (even if you were against such legislation).
It's sad and scary to see how our legislature sausage is made.
Fantastic article.
 
LovingSteam said:
Please tell me how the health reform bill was a pos.

Just at face value, the health care bill is a shell of the legislation that was really needed to stabilize health care spending and ensure medical coverage for all or most americans. Maybe I'm ignorant of the nuts and bolts of the bill, but it seems to be an enormously inefficient huge government subsidy to the health care insurance corporations rather than a substantial expansion of the more efficient Medicare program. So, while it is certainly beneficial in terms of expanding coverage, the strategy was as pro-corporation as it gets.
 
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