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[Tamanon]

This is scary:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/08/education/08students.html?ref=us



Ugh...

That's fucked up, it's shameful the lengths the machine will go to sometimes.

 

[speculawyer]

Late last month, as a voter-registration drive by supporters of Senator Barack Obama was signing up thousands of students at Virginia Tech, the local registrar of elections issued two releases incorrectly suggesting a range of dire possibilities for students who registered to vote at their college.

The releases warned that such students could no longer be claimed as dependents on their parents’ tax returns, a statement the Internal Revenue Service says is incorrect, and could lose scholarships or coverage under their parents’ car and health insurance.

This guy should be fired. He clearly just made that shit up. You don't put out releases without looking up the data and making sure you are correct . . . . unless you don't give a crap and just want to scare people away.

 

[ViperVisor]

Do you actually believe this? Because it wrecks your credibility in every opinion you express, as if you avatar didn't already.

Ditto

 

[Ether_Snake]

holy shit...or more appropriately...BLOODY HELL!!! this is fuck-awesome. I'd watch more c-span if US politics was like this

And it's been like that for centuries you know? Watch the movie Cromwell, it's very good: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromwell_(film)

 

[speculawyer]

Lyndon LaRouche

:lol

Man that guy is a whacko . . .

 

[kaching]

Pretty much. What's moreimporant? Getting in the white house so we can get some real change on significant issues, or is it more important to look like a 'good guy'?

For me, it's important to vote for someone who I believe *is* a good guy not just one the "looks like" one. There's not really a lot of compromise to be had on that front. If someone starts compromising their principles for the sake of getting into office, what's supposed to make me believe they're going to stop compromising their principles once they're in office?

You can do it with FACTS.

He has been and hopefully he will continue to do so.

 

[Slurpy]

i believe foxnews was intended as the counterbalance to everything else. MSNBC is just another liberal outlet among many others.

Oh fuck, you're one of those people. LIBRUL MEDIA, am I right?

 

[qwertybob]

C-SPAN does broadcast the House of Commons sessions that was taken from, though.

Do you guys have anyone who is the equivelent of Jeremy Paxman ? I love the way he will ask a question and will keep asking the same question over and over until they give a straight answer.

in the clip i posted he asks someone the same question 7 times, another person has to face a question 9 times and then it ends with his famous interview where he asked a question 12 times

 

[Stinkles]

Ditto

I should add that my avatar hardly aids my credibility. JayDubya keeps zinging me on it. What's his from, so that I can re-zing?

 

[theviolenthero]

i believe foxnews was intended as the counterbalance to everything else. MSNBC is just another liberal outlet among many others.

This "MSNBC is liberal" lie has been debunked a 1000 times. Why people insist on saying it is beyond belief.

 

[adg1034]

This is scary:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/08/education/08students.html?ref=us



Ugh...

As an Obama campus organizer at a college in MN, I can tell you that if anyone started trying to push this bullshit locally, we'd have people picketing the local election board within a week.

But- this is scary stuff, almost on the level of calling people and feeding them misinformation about their polling place/hours/what day their primary is.

The youth vote is what's largely going to drive this election, especially in states like Iowa, Ohio, Virginia, and others. The DNC's voter registration drives seem to be working at full strength, and if even 80% of those who register turn up on Election Day, that could be your margin of victory right there.

 

[speculawyer]

Olberman is a disgrace, but I'm sure everyone disagrees with my disdain for his emotional bullshit.

Oh get over it. He is clearly running a show from a left viewpoint but as long as he doesn't spew outright falsehoods as is very common the right, there is nothing wrong with that.

Jeez . . is it so bad to have 1 show from the left when there is O'Reilly, Hannity, Scarbough, Glenn Beck, Fox & Friends, actually pretty much the entire Fox News channel, etc. on the right?

I look forward to the Rachel Maddow show? Will I be able to podcast it? That will be a fact-filled left show.

 

[Ether_Snake]

For me, it's important to vote for someone who I believe *is* a good guy not just one the "looks like" one. There's not really a lot of compromise to be had on that front. If someone starts compromising their principles for the sake of getting into office, what's supposed to make me believe they're going to stop compromising their principles once they're in office?

He has been and hopefully he will continue to do so.

Ok I was exaggerating when I said you should flood the channels with lies, but this is what the Democrats will have to face once more, and it works well especially late in the campaign. What the Democrats CAN do is use their money for advertising all over the place, and they have to show everything from McCain being Obama rolled (if they can legally do so) to clips of McCain such as in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEtZlR3zp4c

And:

But the Dems don't bite much even with a lot of good opportunities. I think this whole "we will be nice and play fair" thing is just an excuse to accept defeat. You lose more than just an election.

 

[sprsk]

I should add that my avatar hardly aids my credibility. JayDubya keeps zinging me on it. What's his from, so that I can re-zing?

One of the best comics ever written.

 

[laserbeam]

This "MSNBC is liberal" lie has been debunked a 1000 times. Why people insist on saying it is beyond belief.

When NBC Executives express concern and outrage at their cable branch becoming so vocally left leaning I think it is safe to say its not debunked.

On a recent Friday afternoon, a graphic labeled “Breaking News” asked: “How many houses does Palin add to the Republican ticket?” Mr. Griffin called the graphic “an embarrassment.”

Mr. Griffin is the President of MSNBC btw.

Olbermann is meeting the underside of a Bus because he offers little in the grand scheme of things. MSNBC was owned by PBS of all places consistently for both conventions etc. Ratings are what Cable Press cares about and all Olbermann is good for is his show other than that he isnt boosting MSNBC

 

[Stinkles]

Oh get over it. He is clearly running a show from a left viewpoint but as long as he doesn't spew outright falsehoods as is very common the right, there is nothing wrong with that.

Jeez . . is it so bad to have 1 show from the left when there is O'Reilly, Hannity, Scarbough, Glenn Beck, Fox & Friends, actually pretty much the entire Fox News channel, etc. on the right?

I look forward to the Rachel Maddow show? Will I be able to podcast it? That will be a fact-filled left show.

Actually, I don't like it when Olberman does his emo antics, but you make a very important point. I don't like his tone because it's slightly hysterical, but he's invariably telling the truth and trying to do good. His right wing versions, as you note, are lying sacks of shit. And just as emotional - tending to bluster, bullying and anger.

 

[speculawyer]

i believe foxnews was intended as the counterbalance to everything else. MSNBC is just another liberal outlet among many others.

Yeah, truth was getting far too much air play. Reality has a well-known liberal bias. So we really needed more right-wing distortion & misinformation.

Key-rist, most Fox viewers still think Saddam was tied to 9/11 and that we found WMDs.

 

[JayDubya]

One of the best comics ever written.

POOT YO GWASSASS ON, NUTHTING WILL BE WONG

Nobody responded to this - I think it would be a game changer.

I'm so confused. First you say you don't agree with anything I say ever, then you seem to be a big Paul fan, and I agree with Ron Paul on about 90% or more of every position he's taken on anything. :lol

In any event, no, Bob Barr picked Wayne Allen Root as his running mate. Switching veep running mates is a big no-no, even in "third party" circles. Also, IIRC, Wayne Allen Root did something at the Libertarian Convention to engineer the Barr win, pledging his delegates or something, so Barr owes him, to say the least.

Paul's doing his thing the best way he knows how; he's going to continue to hold his House seat (and continue to vote "No" a lot), he got his message out to a whole new generation, and he got a crowded Target center applauding fiercely at the notion of getting rid of the Federal Reserve. Works for me, considering it seemed like the wife and I were some of the few people that'd heard of him outside of those that remembered his run on the LP ticket.

 

[Particle Physicist]

This is scary:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/08/education/08students.html?ref=us



Ugh...

thats so fucked. interesting how this shit never seems to happen to republicans. :/

 

[Stinkles]

When NBC Executives express concern and outrage at their cable branch becoming so vocally left leaning I think it is safe to say its not debunked.

On a recent Friday afternoon, a graphic labeled “Breaking News” asked: “How many houses does Palin add to the Republican ticket?” Mr. Griffin called the graphic “an embarrassment.”

Mr. Griffin is the president of MSNBC btw

a) What they're concerned about is Olberman specifically, since he's being seen as the vanguard of the network. He's hardly representative of the actual balance of their content.
b) What does that concern tell you about its management and ownership?
c) Statistics, observation and analysis demonstrate time and time again that the media is actually tilted right. There is no argument and there is no liberal media.
d) When we list pundits of note on the left, we run out after Olberman and Maddow.

 

[Particle Physicist]

wtf?! The people at my school are encouraging people to register here. I didn't do absentee because I wanted to be sure that my vote gets counted on election day.

dont worry. thats okay, they will get counted.. they are just trying to spread false information.

 

[sprsk]

The "counterbalance" is the Daily Show.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Do you guys have anyone who is the equivelent of Jeremy Paxman ? I love the way he will ask a question and will keep asking the same question over and over until they give a straight answer.

in the clip i posted he asks someone the same question 7 times, another person has to face a question 9 times and then it ends with his famous interview where he asked a question 12 times

Haha, if only.

 

[devilhawk]

Great response to the 'when does life begin' question.

That was nice and all and it was obvious that is what he really feels, but the whole notion that it is only between the mother and the doctor and possibly their church is in itself problematic. It kinda misses out on one of the crucial parties.

The question is so freaking loaded and impossible to answer. I really wish it could be left outside of the political arena.

Hopefully, one day science can definitively answer the question so this can end.

 

[polyh3dron]

I know it's been said a million times already in this thread, but "no one has ever lost an election by underestimating the ntelligejce of the American people." I like that Obama has mostly spoken to the Ameican people as free-thinking, reasonable adults, but if he loses...I don't see a reason for the Democrats to run such a positive campaign again. Perhaps we aren't ready.

Obama: The President We Need, But Not The One We Deserve Right Now.

 

[Trakdown]

That was nice and all and it was obvious that is what he really feels, but the whole notion that it is only between the mother and the doctor and possibly their church is in itself problematic. It kinda misses out on one of the crucial parties.

The question is so freaking loaded and impossible to answer. I really wish it could be left outside of the political arena.

Hopefully, one day science can definitively answer the question so this can end.

Kinda like the evolution debate.

 

[WickedAngel]

One of the best comics ever written.

Is that Guts from Berserk?

 

[Ether_Snake]

thats so fucked. interesting how this shit never seems to happen to republicans. :/

Well you know on election day there will be people from the Republican side telling people they're at the wrong place to vote, that the place is closed, that they're late, and calling people to tell them the same, drop fake letters in their mail boxed giving them the wrong addresses on where to vote at, etc. That's just a few tactics on the last day of the election, and it eats away at least some votes.

You tell a bunch of people at a homeless shelter that the Democrats are hosting a buffet for them where people are actually voting and you slow down the process, cause some confusion, maybe call the police to say things are getting hectic because some of the homeless guys are now angry, etc.

That's the kind of stuff the Democrats have had to deal with in two elections already.

 

[Trakdown]

Well you know on election day there will be people from the Republican side telling people they're at the wrong place to vote, that the place is closed, that they're late, and calling people to tell them the same, drop fake letters in their mail boxed giving them the wrong addresses on where to vote at, etc. That's just a few tactics on the last day of the election, and it eats away at least some votes.

You tell a bunch of people at a homeless shelter that the Democrats are hosting a buffet for them where people are actually voting and you slow down the process, cause some confusion, maybe call the police to say things are getting hectic because some of the homeless guys are now angry, etc.

That's the kind of stuff the Democrats have had to deal with in two elections already.

I can't remember what election it was, but throughout the south, the GOP distributed flyers reminding black people to vote on Nov. 5th. The election was, of course, on the fourth.

 

[devilhawk]

Kinda like the evolution debate.

No. Evolution is no different than gravity in science. I won't tell people they can't learn creationism or even that they can't believe it, but it sure as hell doesn't belong in school. Reforming it into ID should not allow the injection of that crap into schools.

 

[Stinkles]

Hopefully, one day science can definitively answer the question so this can end.

Science can answer that easily. The real debate is, "when does it matter?" That, unfortunately, is subjective. I am pro choice for a very unpalatable reason and I could never run for office.

I think humans are kind of shitty, there are too many of them and I'm an atheist too. So obviously I am pro choice, since I don't value the concept of a "soul." I actually fully understand why Pro Life people feel like that, but since I disagree with most of the precepts that make life "special" or "important," choice seems logical to me.

I think that you can repeat a genetic combination later if now's not the right time, and I think a late term pregnancy should be carried to term and given up for adoption if the parent is not prepared to deal with it.

So weirdly enough, I actually think JayDubya is right on the money when he says "life" begins at a successful fertilization. I just don't give a shit. I also realize that means I don't have a lot of folks who have my back on that.

 

[qwertybob]

I can't remember what election it was, but throughout the south, the GOP distributed flyers reminding black people to vote on Nov. 5th. The election was, of course, on the fourth.

is anyone ever held accountable for shit like this ?

 

[speculawyer]

When NBC Executives express concern and outrage at their cable branch becoming so vocally left leaning I think it is safe to say its not debunked.
Mr. Griffin is the President of MSNBC btw.

But the question one should ask is "Why doesn't Fox News ask this question?" . . . wait . . . we all know . . .

Olbermann is meeting the underside of a Bus because he offers little in the grand scheme of things. MSNBC was owned by PBS of all places consistently for both conventions etc. Ratings are what Cable Press cares about and all Olbermann is good for is his show other than that he isnt boosting MSNBC

Ratings have destroyed the news. Who sits around and watches the news all day? Young people? No. Working mothers? No. Cranky old white people. And the news channels have learned that skewing your news to cranky old white people (who tend to lean very conservative) boosts news channels ratings.

Journalism is dead. Ratings killed it.

(No, Olberman is not journalism, but he is variety at least and found a successful niche. And he is NOT going to get thrown under a bus . . . he is practically the most successful show on MSNBC!)

 

[kaching]

Ok I was exaggerating when I said you should flood the channels with lies, but this is what the Democrats will have to face once more, and it works well especially late in the campaign. What the Democrats CAN do is use their money for advertising all over the place, and they have to show everything from McCain being Obama rolled (if they can legally do so) to clips of McCain such as in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEtZlR3zp4c

If the next 60 days go by without any sort of attempt by the Obama campaign to expose McCain's lies, then you'll have a point. But since the past 60 days haven't gone that way (or the 60 days before that...), I hardly see the relevance of your criticism.

EDIT: Does this qualify as "an excuse to accept defeat" to you?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/26563623#26563623

 

[Trakdown]

is anyone ever held accountable for shit like this ?

Nope. Our elections suck, and we seem to be okay with that.

 

[speculawyer]

No. Evolution is no different than gravity in science. I won't tell people they can't learn creationism or even that they can't believe it, but it sure as hell doesn't belong in school. Reforming it into ID should not allow the injection of that crap into schools.

I actually heard an interesting viewpoint on creationism/ID the other night. It was kind of suggesting well . . . maybe it should be taught. It would take a whole 15 minutes. When your whole 'science' consists of "Well . . . I don't know what happened . . . God did it.", it is not like it will take much time. And compared to the years one can spend on teaching evidence of evolution, creationism/ID is a joke. There is nothing there to teach . . . it is just "Well . . . we can't figure out how this works, so God did it."

 

[Particle Physicist]

Well you know on election day there will be people from the Republican side telling people they're at the wrong place to vote, that the place is closed, that they're late, and calling people to tell them the same, drop fake letters in their mail boxed giving them the wrong addresses on where to vote at, etc. That's just a few tactics on the last day of the election, and it eats away at least some votes.

You tell a bunch of people at a homeless shelter that the Democrats are hosting a buffet for them where people are actually voting and you slow down the process, cause some confusion, maybe call the police to say things are getting hectic because some of the homeless guys are now angry, etc.

That's the kind of stuff the Democrats have had to deal with in two elections already.

 

[devilhawk]

Science can answer that easily. The real debate is, "when does it matter?" That, unfortunately, is subjective. I am pro choice for a very unpalatable reason and I could never run for office.

I think humans are kind of shitty, there are too many of them and I'm an atheist too. So obviously I am pro choice, since I don't value the concept of a "soul." I actually fully understand why Pro Life people feel like that, but since I disagree with most of the precepts that make life "special" or "important," choice seems logical to me.

I think that you can repeat a genetic combination later if now's not the right time, and I think a late term pregnancy should be carried to term and given up for adoption if the parent is not prepared to deal with it.

So weirdly enough, I actually think JayDubya is right on the money when he says "life" begins at a successful fertilization. I just don't give a shit. I also realize that means I don't have a lot of folks who have my back on that.

Yes, developemental biology has gotten to this point, but as the science progresses even further and more undeniable proof is obtained and relayed I think the debate will quiet down.

The "I don't care" part is another problem. How does one just mark a line in the sand and call the debate finished. Only an objective solution can solve this and I think science is the answer.

 

[JayDubya]

That was nice and all and it was obvious that is what he really feels, but the whole notion that it is only between the mother and the doctor and possibly their church is in itself problematic. It kinda misses out on one of the crucial parties.

The question is so freaking loaded and impossible to answer. I really wish it could be left outside of the political arena.

Hopefully, one day science can definitively answer the question so this can end.

How did I miss this?

The life sciences of biology and embryology et. al have a very clear answer where a human lifespan begins. Biologic life has a fairly clear definition (you'll certainly find scientists that think viruses count as living, but that's not in Chapter 1 of every Bio 101 textbook), and a newly synthesized human embryo meets all the criteria. What is biologically, scientifically human and what is not is also not a point of dispute.

Do not look to future science for the answer to this dilemma. Present day science has rendered an answer, and that answer is ignored entirely in favor of non-scientific, wholly subjective, exclusionary, legal personhood.

 

[Learn2read]

Is this the same MSNBC that cancelled it's top-rated show at the time (Phil Donahue) because it wasn't right-wing enough. Olbermann is on MSNBC in spite of it's executives.

 

[soul creator]

If the next 60 days go by without any sort of attempt by the Obama campaign to expose McCain's lies, then you'll have a point. But since the past 60 days haven't gone that way (or the 60 days before that...), I hardly see the relevance of your criticism.

I agree. Obama "attacks" McCain all the time in town halls and in advertisements, yet this idea persists that "omg Obama needs to be on the attack!". And Obama has been doing the "use McCain's own quotes and video footage against him" strategy plenty of times.

Of course, does this get talked about by the cable news pundits? No. But that's par for the course. Just because CNN/MSNBC doesn't report on Obama criticizing John McCain doesn't mean it doesn't actually happen.

Democrats would be a lot less stressed about this election if they avoided the pundits and daily tracking polls, and volunteered/donated to the campaign and watched state polls, lol

 

[devilhawk]

I actually heard an interesting viewpoint on creationism/ID the other night. It was kind of suggesting well . . . maybe it should be taught. It would take a whole 15 minutes. When your whole 'science' consists of "Well . . . I don't know what happened . . . God did it.", it is not like it will take much time. And compared to the years one can spend on teaching evidence of evolution, creationism/ID is a joke. There is nothing there to teach . . . it is just "Well . . . we can't figure out how this works, so God did it."

Well, the whole point of ID is to de-religonize (lol) the creation myth so that it skirts the separation of church and state. It is not a varifiable science at all and has no place in intro biology courses.

 

[Y2Kev]

Prime Minister's question time is fucking awesome. Why don't we have anything like that in the US?

 

[Zeliard]

Prime Minister's question time is fucking awesome. Why don't we have anything like that in the US?

Because we have to do everything ass backwards while still pretending that we rule the planet.

Ameirca, baby. Ameirca.

 

[Mandark]

If we're talking about deference to the hard sciences, may I bring up global climate change?

 

[Stinkles]

Prime Minister's question time is fucking awesome. Why don't we have anything like that in the US?

Because remarkably few politicians could stand up to that kind of pressure or scrutiny.

 

[SecretDestroyer]

That was nice and all and it was obvious that is what he really feels, but the whole notion that it is only between the mother and the doctor and possibly their church is in itself problematic. It kinda misses out on one of the crucial parties.

The question is so freaking loaded and impossible to answer. I really wish it could be left outside of the political arena.

Hopefully, one day science can definitively answer the question so this can end.

The abortion question is not "when does life begin" but "when does ensoulment occur" and that has already been answered by science... it doesn't... because souls aren't real.

But of course, reality isn't all that important to the pro-life crowd.

Flat earth caucus indeed.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Kinda like the evolution debate.

Both debates are only in America. Go in France and talk about creationism and people will mock and ridicule you, with reason too. America is being hurt from the inside for the sake of sustaining a political party that relies too much on fundamentalists. After a while you all seem to forget that the reason the whole abortion and evolution debate has gotten so much attention over the recent years is because the religious right is shrinking in numbers so the right is trying to bring religion back into the school curriculum to raise a whole new crop of future voters and sustain its current one. It's all politics, has nothing to do with bettering the situation of Americans.

Meanwhile, as a result of the above, you end up with a large amount of people who are ignorant, unhealthy, racist, etc., for the sake of a party's vote count (or for the sake of corporations, which is again for the sake of a party). This in the long term has seriously dangerous implications for the country's future.

The prosperity of the US, a nation that has all the foundations to remain the world's leading super power, relies on education, health, and energy. The later two are entirely dependent on education itself. Yet you have a party dedicated to ruin the strength of the public education system, ignore the need for health care, and turn its back on solutions for energy independence, and this can only be achieved by attacking the intellect of the population. It's sort of counter productive when half of your job is to run a country, the other half is to hurt it so you can keep on running it for eight more years.

 

[speculawyer]

That was nice and all and it was obvious that is what he really feels, but the whole notion that it is only between the mother and the doctor and possibly their church is in itself problematic. It kinda misses out on one of the crucial parties.

The question is so freaking loaded and impossible to answer. I really wish it could be left outside of the political arena.

Hopefully, one day science can definitively answer the question so this can end.

I don't think science can provide an answer since it is more philosophical & subjective, but even if science did provide an answer, the fundies wouldn't believe it anyway so it really wouldn't matter.


Life began zillions of years ago and has been a running game ever since. The question is more of a legal issue of 'when is there a seperate legal being that we give legal rights to'. It is not an easy question and I'm fine with the current answer but I understand that there is a controversy. However, the 'at conception' is largely some weird religious interpretation (that has no solid support in the Bible) as far as I can tell. (Or a 'brother human supremacist' in the case of out-liers like JayDubya.) Why should a blob of cells be considered a being to give rights to?.

 

[speculawyer]

The abortion question is not "when does life begin" but "when does ensoulment occur" and that has already been answered by science... it doesn't... because souls aren't real.

But of course, reality isn't all that important to the pro-life crowd.

Flat earth caucus indeed.

I'm speculawyer and I approve of that message.