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PoliGAF Thread of PRESIDENT OBAMA Checkin' Off His List

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K

Karma Kramer

Banned
Macam said:
As the problem has spread, a number of schools have stepped up response systems, prevention systems (e.g., counseling), and, in some cases, security. There are other, more sane, solutions to the problem posed by a very small statistical minority.
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But why is the problem only being spread through schools? Why don't we hear more about random shootings in Manhattan or other public places that allow concealed guns?

Yes there are murders all the time due to violence.. but those are typically driven through personal hatred of another individual not just random slaughtering.
 
M

Macam

Banned
Karma Kramer said:
But why is the problem only being spread through schools? Why don't we hear more about random shootings in Manhattan or other public places that allow concealed guns?

Yes there are murders all the time due to violence.. but those are typically driven through personal hatred of another individual not just random slaughtering.
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To be honest, I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make; local news is littered with coverage of random shootings all the time. It's not limited to schools.
 
K

Karma Kramer

Banned
Macam said:
To be honest, I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make; local news is littered with coverage of random shootings all the time. It's not limited to schools.
Click to expand...

Mass shootings in large public areas? Where all the time?
 
D

Deus Ex Machina

Member
PHOTOS National Security Speech

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Secretary of Defense Robert Gates and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton

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Rep. Peter King, Director of Central Intelligence Leon Panetta, and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.

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P

Particle Physicist

between a quark and a baryon
APF said:
Your above post makes no sense.
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Just because you say it doesnt make sense, doesnt make it so.

no need to be fucken condescending..

here, simple:

VP != P
current P != ex-VP


i have no idea why you resort to insults all the time... there really is no need.
 
S

speculawyer

Member
We're gonna secede . . . just as soon as they are done fixin' my house.

Stimulus funds to repair Texas Governor's Mansion

AUSTIN, Texas – While Gov. Rick Perry is criticizing Washington bailouts, state lawmakers are planning to use $11 million in federal stimulus money to help rebuild the badly burned Texas Governor's Mansion.

Approximately $10 million in state tax money will also be spent on a renovation, which is expected to cost about $20 million, officials said Thursday. A House-Senate committee agreed on the expenditures late Wednesday night.

The mansion was burned in an arson fire last summer.

Perry has railed against federal bailouts and what he called the free-spending, power-hungry ways of Washington. In January, he said Texas was endangered by Uncle Sam's "audacity."
Click to expand...
 
A

Arde5643

Member
empty vessel said:
I'd rather have adequate social services so violent crime is reduced in accord with most other industrialized nations. That sounds like a more rational and civilized response than simply arming everybody to "deal with it." Seriously, who willingly chooses to live this way?
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Somalians do.
 
K

Karma Kramer

Banned
Maddow is hammering Obama on why exactly he is really acting no different the Bush/Cheney and is what caused my page long rant earlier haha

She is right though... if Obama doesn't end these practices he is just as bad as Bush and is not following the rule of law.

Further proof he fears of being soft on terrorism... further proof he cares more about his ass then the constitution
 
J

JayDubya

Banned
Aw, hell with it.

Seung-Hui Cho wasn't allowed to carry guns on campus.

Seung-Hui Cho wasn't allowed to keep them in his dorm.

Seung-Hui Cho did both.

People who want to commit mass murder and don't mind dying in the process don't give a fuck.

So really all the current policy does is ensure that people that do give a fuck are helpless. And by current, I mean soon-to-be-past-tense, and it's about time.
 
empty vessel

empty vessel

Member
Aaron Strife said:
Man, does this mean we get to have another V-Tech in the near future? SO AWESOME.
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Well, we'd have that regardless. The JayD position is that, since it's inevitable we'll have another one, allowing concealed weapons on campus can stop such an attack before it otherwise would be stopped by police. Net gain.

But he doesn't factor in the average, everyday shootings that occur as a result of the availability and ease of access to guns, shootings that occur from everyday things like the escalation of fights and the rising of tempers, particularly where matters of the heart or alcohol are involved. Just because somebody gets a concealed carry permit does not mean they aren't going to kill somebody. After all, everybody carries a gun "lawfully" until they use it to kill somebody. These kinds of personal shootings typically never make national news, but they occur with much more frequency than your mass school shooting.

I think we can reduce these kinds of mass shootings by providing adequate mental health care throughout the society. It won't eliminate them, at least not as long as capitalist modes of production continue to alienate people, but it is a better solution than doing nothing and arming people.
 
J

JayDubya

Banned
No, comrade, "we" are not "arming people," just as I'm not so certain "we" will be providing mental health services, unless that's your area of practice.

This policy change empowers people to exercise their rights free from unjust penalty. It will enable self-defense to be viable for many individuals once they go out and purchase their own weapon. It is not so much about passing out shotguns at the local kegger.
 
empty vessel

empty vessel

Member
JayDubya said:
No, comrade, "we" are not "arming people," just as I'm not so certain "we" will be providing mental health services, unless that's your area of practice.

This policy change empowers people to exercise their rights free from unjust penalty. It will enable self-defense to be viable for many individuals once they go out and purchase their own weapon. It is not so much about passing out shotguns at the local kegger.
Click to expand...

Citizens don't have "rights" against other citizens. They have rights against their government (the right to adequate mental health care being one deserving at least as much exercise as the right to firearms).

It has nothing to do with passing out shotguns at a kegger (hi straw man). But, make no mistake, it will have the effect of making college campuses more dangerous than they currently are, keggers being only part of the reason why.

It's simple. Instead of advocating policies that call for reciprocal violence, let's advocate polices that reduce violence. Is that really so anathema to you?
 
R

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
empty vessel said:
Citizens don't have "rights" against other citizens. They have rights against their government (the right to adequate mental health care being one deserving at least as much exercise as the right to firearms).

It has nothing to do with passing out shotguns at a kegger (hi straw man). But, make no mistake, it will have the effect of making college campuses more dangerous than they currently are, keggers being only part of the reason why.

It's simple. Instead of advocating policies that call for reciprocal violence, let's advocate polices that reduce violence. Is that really so anathema to you?
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*grabs snacks*
 
T

TheGrayGhost

Banned
How was the speech this morning? I think analysts were looking for a clear road-map to success in the renewed effort in Afghanistan. Did he deliver?
 
J

JayDubya

Banned
empty vessel said:
Citizens don't have "rights" against other citizens. They have rights against their government (the right to adequate mental health care being one deserving at least as much exercise as the right to firearms).
Click to expand...

There is no such right, and in any event, that would not be a "right against a government." You're not even speaking about rights in the negative liberty sense (those that restrict what a government can do to its people), either. You're asserting a positive liberty stance that the government is obliged to provide therapy and pills.

Furthermore, I don't know what this "rights against other citizens" claptrap is, but other citizens certainly will try to aggressively violate your rights by trying to kill you or trap you or steal from you.

It's simple. Instead of advocating policies that call for reciprocal violence, let's advocate polices that reduce violence. Is that really so anathema to you?
Click to expand...

You've already advocated the equivalent of paying tribute as a means to reduce violence. I'm not so big on tribute.

To turn the old saying on it's head: pennies for defense rather than the millions for tribute.
 
empty vessel

empty vessel

Member
JayDubya said:
There is no such right, and in any event, that would not be a "right against a government." You're not speaking about rights in the negative liberty sense (those that restrict what a government can do to its people), either. You're asserting a positive liberty stance that the government is obliged to provide an entitlement services.
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There is no such recognized right. The point is there should be, as there is in other rational, industrialized societies. And it is a right against the government, because it is directed to that power. That it is "positive" rather than "negative" is irrelevant.

You've already advocated the equivalent of paying tribute as a means to reduce violence.
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It costs money to have a better society. We can't all be irresponsible capitalists.
 
J

JayDubya

Banned
empty vessel said:
It costs money to have a better society. We can't all be irresponsible capitalists.
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This "irresponsible" capitalist doesn't want your version of "better," because it's worse.
 
empty vessel

empty vessel

Member
JayDubya said:
This "irresponsible" capitalist doesn't want your version of "better," because it's worse.
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That's funny, because all quality-of-life and standard-of-living indices disagree.

Karma Kramer said:
yeah it sucks when your government doesn't "seek to maximize individual liberty"
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Like the liberty to be free of mental illness? Or the liberty of shelter? Or the liberty of higher education?
 
K

Karma Kramer

Banned
empty vessel said:
Like the liberty to be free of mental illness? Or the liberty of shelter? Or the liberty of higher education?
Click to expand...

lol

I am talking about Obama's complete hypocrisy to continue the Bush/Cheney policies and lock up people who have yet to commit a crime or have a fair trial in court. He is sacrificing our rights as individuals so he doesn't appear soft on terrorism and its complete bullshit.

Here's your link Stoney! Let's have that "real" discussion...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uuWVHT1WUY
 
K

Karma Kramer

Banned
GhaleonEB said:
Not happy about it. Waiting to see if it's actually used. Hope it's not. But Maddow regularly misses the boat entirely, and she's over stating things here.
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Of course it will be used... did you not hear what he said his plan will be?

If anything this is starting to make me think this whole Cheney thing was a distraction so people wouldn't notice the fine print of what Obama was really saying. Remember it wasn't Cheney who decided to have a speech right after Obama... Obama scheduled this thing right before Cheney saying "it was because it was the only time it fit in his schedule" (not exact quote)
 
W

WickedAngel

Banned
How has the GOP managed to convince their entire constituency that specious reasoning is acceptable?

Since sitting down at my chair, I haven't been attacked by bear cavalry from Canuckistan. Does that mean that computers will protect us from our northern oppressors?
 
C

charlequin

Banned
JayDubya said:
Ending the practice of allowing a public institution to deny the Constitutional rights of American citizens long since past the age of majority, is in fact, awesome.
Click to expand...

I'm throwing this out because I'm assuming that alternate-universe JayDubya` from "Everything's the Same Except the 2nd Amendment Says Super-Explicitly It Only Applies To Letting Militia Members Own Guns" is not magically totally in favor of gun control. I want to get at the underlying reasons why you think this kind of gun policy is beneficial.

An individual not having to live in fear of the delay between when something bad happens and when campus police and / or the local police actually manage to arrive and do something about it is awesome.
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Is this a hard-line ideological position rather than a reasonable-standard position? Would you still support it even if it were proven to your own satisfaction that CCPs led to a doubling of non-justifiable gun deaths rather than a reduction?

If so: should large corporations be allowed to keep nuclear weapons in their corporate headquarters as deterrents? How about just conventional weapons like decommissioned military aircraft and tanks?

Are there any dangerous objects that you would object to a law prohibiting people bringing to various places? Various government-owned places?
 
S

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
Karma Kramer said:
If anything this is starting to make me think this whole Cheney thing was a distraction so people wouldn't notice the fine print of what Obama was really saying. Remember it wasn't Cheney who decided to have a speech right after Obama... Obama scheduled this thing right before Cheney saying "it was because it was the only time it fit in his schedule" (not exact quote)
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Conspiracy time! Yes!

In all seriousness though, you're right - actions speak louder than words. Let's wait to see what actually happens though before you hem and haw about Obama continuing Bush/Cheney.
 
W

WickedAngel

Banned
empty vessel said:
Well, we'd have that regardless. The JayD position is that, since it's inevitable we'll have another one, allowing concealed weapons on campus can stop such an attack before it otherwise would be stopped by police. Net gain.

But he doesn't factor in the average, everyday shootings that occur as a result of the availability and ease of access to guns, shootings that occur from everyday things like the escalation of fights and the rising of tempers, particularly where matters of the heart or alcohol are involved. Just because somebody gets a concealed carry permit does not mean they aren't going to kill somebody. After all, everybody carries a gun "lawfully" until they use it to kill somebody. These kinds of personal shootings typically never make national news, but they occur with much more frequency than your mass school shooting.

I think we can reduce these kinds of mass shootings by providing adequate mental health care throughout the society. It won't eliminate them, at least not as long as capitalist modes of production continue to alienate people, but it is a better solution than doing nothing and arming people.
Click to expand...

You apparently don't factor in the average, everyday statistics that directly state how many CCL/CCP holders are involved in crimes.
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
JayDubya said:
Do you even need me to point out how you're being illogical here? You really shouldn't.
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I just felt like being a contrary ass. I do that a lot.

That said, I still think it's a bad idea. Actually if it were up to me I'd probably strike the second amendment from the Bill of Rights and replace it with something more coherent and grounded, but that's why I'm not in charge, I suppose.
 
empty vessel

empty vessel

Member
WickedAngel said:
You apparently don't factor in the average, everyday statistics that directly state how many CCL/CCP holders are involved in crimes.
Click to expand...

Feel free to link to a reliable source for those numbers. Given that 32 people were killed in the Virginia Tech massacre, and that such massacres occur very infrequently (it's already been over two years since that one), I hope you have some very low annual national numbers.

And, remember, the more you encourage people to obtain concealed carry licenses, the more your numbers will increase, as a straightforward application of probabilities.

This is all such a waste of time, given how few people are impacted by this one way or another. More people are struck by lightning each year than are killed by college campus massacres.
 
M

mclem

Member
WickedAngel said:
How has the GOP managed to convince their entire constituency that specious reasoning is acceptable?

Since sitting down at my chair, I haven't been attacked by bear cavalry from Canuckistan. Does that mean that computers will protect us from our northern oppressors?
Click to expand...
Lisa, I'd like to buy your rock.
 
J

JayDubya

Banned
empty vessel said:
That's funny, because all quality-of-life and standard-of-living indices disagree.
Click to expand...

That's funny, because the overarching policy I support increases quality of life and lowers the price index.
 
J

JayDubya

Banned
I don't know, it's much too complex for me. Ass.

And ironically, the issues EV raised are not complex in the least. None of those are "liberties," though you do have freedom of choice amongst providers of those services.
 
S

Souldriver

Member
JayDubya said:
I don't know, it's much too complex for me. Ass.

And ironically, the issues EV raised are not complex in the least. None of those are "liberties," though you do have freedom of choice amongst providers of those services.
Click to expand...
I'm just pointing out that you're claiming your preferred policy would increase life quality, while all evidence says the opposite.
 
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