I wouldn't hate 2v2 (really depends on how they do it), but it would definitely feel like a step down in my eyes from 3v3. It could potentially make for a more balanced game, sure (though MvC1 seems to say otherwise...), but it's not worth losing out on a more fun experience (imo) and team/combo creativity in 3v3.
Polygon: Yes, a new Marvel vs. Capcom game is in development. (X-Men gone, MCU focus)
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Collateral22
Member
Sounds like it could be like the SF deal. SF5 announcement with Ultra Street Fighter IV Port. Just hope the actually make it good on release and not 2 months down the line.
Oh, well that doesn't sound too bad really, Level 3 XF was fucking nuts lol.
One thing they absolutely need to do is work on making the more popular Marvel characters more accessible. In UMvC3, Iron Man was tough to use, Spiderman was tough, Thor was tough to use. I realize tough is the name of the game, but these are characters casual players will gravitate to, and a lot of people dropped MvC3 fast because of its level of difficulty.
Also why we saw a ton of Wesker's to start, he was a popular character that was fairly straight forward.
Also why we saw a ton of Wesker's to start, he was a popular character that was fairly straight forward.
OmegaSmash
Member
I wonder how the control scheme will be this time. The LMH S system worked pretty well to adapt MvC2 in a "simpler" way, but I'm starting to think that Capcom might even go beyond that.
Stone Ocean
Member
You can't make it simpler without going back to a sideways Wiimote TVC scheme and fuuuuuuck thaaaaaat
Doctrine Dark
Member
Wesker slowly got fazed out of the meta. There were still some solid Wesker's in tourneys, but he was no longer the 2011-2012 Wesker everyone thought he was.
I'm also interested in the button layout.
I'm also interested in the button layout.
Characters are now completely stationary and only one attack button
To this day think it's one of the reasons VF isn't popular and lots of people say it's so hard.
People pick Ryu guy. Ryu guy is actually one of the harder characters to learn.
Fuck this game.
So, yeah, definitely agree.
Even with assists the 2v2 thing reminds me too much of TTT. What separated this series is that they said "fuck that tag team shit, we'll go 3v3" and it worked out. Besides that, 3 characters to play as was more fun than 2. I can't even imagine how short matches are going to be now with just 2 characters I mean sure you can increase the rounds and all but damn. Just weird.
I'll just hold out until we get some official news because that's a crucial part of the series.
I'll just hold out until we get some official news because that's a crucial part of the series.
Stone Ocean
Member
Anything less than 4 buttons and you might as well hire Sirlin as your battle director
Jawmuncher
Member
I don't see Wesker going anywhere.
-Fills a villain role which is lacking across the board
-By far the most popular out of the RE characters even when he started falling out of meta
- They just had D C Douglas voicing him in Umbrella Corps. Could have easily had him do MvC VO while he did that.
-Fills a villain role which is lacking across the board
-By far the most popular out of the RE characters even when he started falling out of meta
- They just had D C Douglas voicing him in Umbrella Corps. Could have easily had him do MvC VO while he did that.
Teknopathetic
Member
"Even with assists the 2v2 thing reminds me too much of TTT. What separated this series is that they said "fuck that tag team shit, we'll go 3v3" and it worked out. Besides that, 3 characters to play as was more fun than 2. I can't even imagine how short matches are going to be now with just 2 characters I mean sure you can increase the rounds and all but damn. Just weird. "
The majority of the Marvel vs series games aren't 3v3 though.
The majority of the Marvel vs series games aren't 3v3 though.
No, it actually really doesn't.
I could go on and on but i'll just say that heightened level of secrecy in the video game industry (compared to other entertainment industries) is a source of constant ire to me.
We know when movies are in development the second the cast is chosen, and we know how much those movies made after opening weekend.
But video games... we don't even know whats going on or how much a game really sold without some heavy third party involvment.
It gets old fast
Talking a lot with some friends and I'm warming up on the idea of 2v2. 3v3 isn't impossible to balance (and I still think I'd prefer it simply because anything less would feel like a step down) but we're talking about a game being added to the CPT and probably being balanced with eSports in mind, it makes sense that they'd want the game to be more focused.
Assist characters in 3 were the biggest problem with the game's balance imo, that's why you see Doom on every team. Other characters like Arthur, Hsien-Ko or even Iron Fist were designed to have incredibly useful assists, but are almost never seen in competition because you could be playing a character who's stronger on point with a comparable assist as well. If we get, say, 25 dedicated and unique assists that are all designed to be equally strong but in different ways, we could honestly end up seeing much more variety even with one less playable character per team.
Assist characters in 3 were the biggest problem with the game's balance imo, that's why you see Doom on every team. Other characters like Arthur, Hsien-Ko or even Iron Fist were designed to have incredibly useful assists, but are almost never seen in competition because you could be playing a character who's stronger on point with a comparable assist as well. If we get, say, 25 dedicated and unique assists that are all designed to be equally strong but in different ways, we could honestly end up seeing much more variety even with one less playable character per team.
AWizardDidIt
Member
I wish I could go back 5-6 years and tell the me of the past that Star Lord and Rocket Raccoon have a higher chance of being in the next MvC game than Wolverine and Storm.
?
I know it's not. I've been playing them since the mid-90s. In my mind however when I look at the series as a whole these days all I see is the 3v3 and looking back at how they were previously, it's just different to me now. The 3v3 appeal's taken over what it used to be, it's a calling card of the series rather than before when it was 2v2. Sort of like different eras. Even though this will be a new era and all, which makes sense, the 3v3 for Marvel was just something that fit.
OmegaSmash
Member
But the most popular ones are. But thinking about it, I'd rather have the KoF Striker system with a regular character being used as an assist only instead of having actual assist only characters.
LeMaximilian
Alligator F*ck House
The unique assist idea worked well in MVC1 too. However, a big part of the 3v3 gameplay is you put one of your characters in harms way to use them as an assist. You die faster, which is why 3v3 even became a thing in MVC2. Maybe aside from unique assists, you could use your other two characters in combat for combo extensions or buffs, putting them in harms way even when using a unique assist character.
I dunno, there's so much hype shit you could do with MVC. I just want fast paced action gameplay from another Vs. title that makes me say 'holy shit'.
What did he mean by this?
Member
So what'd yall think of my ideas to have Daemon from Dragons Dogma and Dr. Wily playable? Im most proud of those
I definitely don't want assist only characters. I like too many unpopular characters. And having them be assist only would piss me off more than them not being in the game at all.
More Dragons Dogma can only be good
shaowebb
Member
I love you guys.
X-factor =Upon activation it can cancel actions. Receive bonus that increases speed and strength and heal red health. Duration and strength of bonus increases with the more meter you have up to lvl 3 if you have 3 bars of meter. High reward and no real risk to use it.
BAROQUE = Upon activation it can cancel actions. Using baroque CONSUMED red health. Additionally you receive bonus that increases speed and strength based upon how much red health you had upon activation. Baroque duration is not like xfactor. It ONLY stays active so long as you remain in a combo. You drop the combo, the bonus ends, your red health is gone. You could activate it often for many cancels at the expense of no healable red health if you tagged out, or you could save it up for a big damage combo. Very clear risk/reward economy to using it.
The winner by a large margin...BAROQUE.
Mr. Pointy
Member
IMO if it's MvC 2v2 we might be getting 6 buttons again.
Let's be real, people were barely good with 2 of their characters let alone 3.
2v2 is fine.
And even then it's the same outside of having one more point character because you still get the advantage of the assist. Maybe this is what they are doing to make happy birthdays less punishing.
With a HBD you lose 2 characters and 2 possible assists.
In Mvc2 double snap would yield the loss of one character and assist (in this case usually anchor which was a lower tier character used mainly just for their assist).
IN mvc4, let's say you get hit with a double snap or HBD. You lose 1 character and 1 assist and get left with one character no assist (same as mvc3).
If double snap works. You lose an assist (now it will be interesting if losing your assist allows you access to the second character as a back up assist, thus making a bad assist call that much more dangerous because now you risk losing the game/character/assist if you only have point and secondary).
And you know how many times in Mvc2 that a last character was commando or another assist character and players would just reset the match/give up.
2v2 plus 1 assist is fine.
It's basically the same thing we've always been playing.
I can further elaborate if anyone needs.
2v2 is fine.
And even then it's the same outside of having one more point character because you still get the advantage of the assist. Maybe this is what they are doing to make happy birthdays less punishing.
With a HBD you lose 2 characters and 2 possible assists.
In Mvc2 double snap would yield the loss of one character and assist (in this case usually anchor which was a lower tier character used mainly just for their assist).
IN mvc4, let's say you get hit with a double snap or HBD. You lose 1 character and 1 assist and get left with one character no assist (same as mvc3).
If double snap works. You lose an assist (now it will be interesting if losing your assist allows you access to the second character as a back up assist, thus making a bad assist call that much more dangerous because now you risk losing the game/character/assist if you only have point and secondary).
And you know how many times in Mvc2 that a last character was commando or another assist character and players would just reset the match/give up.
2v2 plus 1 assist is fine.
It's basically the same thing we've always been playing.
I can further elaborate if anyone needs.
Duration and strength increases the less characters you have in your team, not how much meter you have.
Troubled Bat
Member
I wouldn't mind him, to be honest. It'd be cool to have such a giant character.
Poltergust
Member
Wrong, it has to do with the number of characters left alive on your team. Meter did not matter.
you lose out on a massive depth dimension with 2v2 + assist vs. 3v3 very specifically because of how the assist systems work and how juggling chars + balance based on point viability vs. assist viability is a large thing.
the fact that team orders are such a massive deal that drastically change up a team's dynamic is like, insanely obvious.
i really cannot imagine anyone who actually has played these games seriously thinking 2v2+assist is an improvement in any manner lol
does baroque cancel blockstun because that is actually the biggest part of what makes x-factor so dynamic in the first place and how it defines it's risk/reward factor realistically at high level play. baroque sounds like roman cancelling which is cool but kinda one-dimensional in a game that's already defined by the freedom of action you have in the first place. if it's only possible to activate in combos, even moreso because it's effectively just a combo/reset-only thing instead of adding to decision making outside of combos
also, what poltergust said
the fact that team orders are such a massive deal that drastically change up a team's dynamic is like, insanely obvious.
i really cannot imagine anyone who actually has played these games seriously thinking 2v2+assist is an improvement in any manner lol
does baroque cancel blockstun because that is actually the biggest part of what makes x-factor so dynamic in the first place and how it defines it's risk/reward factor realistically at high level play. baroque sounds like roman cancelling which is cool but kinda one-dimensional in a game that's already defined by the freedom of action you have in the first place. if it's only possible to activate in combos, even moreso because it's effectively just a combo/reset-only thing instead of adding to decision making outside of combos
also, what poltergust said
Waddle Dee
Member
I admit, as someone who never got too deep into a fighting game before MvC3, having Spider-Man being as tough to use as he is almost put me off from the game. Thankfully I just decided to stick to other characters but I do think Capcom should consider making Marvel's biggest hitters easier to use for newcomers. Captain America and Hulk are already good examples of that.
But at the same time, you wouldn't want to piss off existing fans of the veteran's playstyle.
Undead Fantasy
Member
Let's hope the Capcom gods agree.
Karsticles
Member
I think MvC1-style assists are inferior for two reasons:
1) The assists exist without other traits, and so it's too easy for one to stand out over others. Contrast this with a 3v3 system, where you also have to consider DHCs, comeback potential, etc. 3v3 leads people to use Dr. Doom over Shuma-Gorath, but I do not think that would be the case if Shuma-Gorath were just an assist without point liability.
2) MvC1-style means you get ONE assist. 3v3 means two assists, which enhances the possibilities in team construction.
3) 3v3 helps balance the risk/reward of assists much more than a MvC1 system. In MvC1 you throw out Colossus whenever you feel like it, and if he doesn't accomplish his goal - oh well. In Marvel 3 a bad assist call can lose you the game, and a huge part of the game is manipulating the screen to ensure your assist call is protected. Contrast that with MvC1 where assists get you in for free.
3v3 is just a better battle system overall. It would really disappoint me if Capcom regressed on this point.
Poltergust
Member
There was literally no good reason why Web Swing needed to be a reverse Shoryuken input lol.
OmegaSmash
Member
I could get behind the 2v2 idea and having some characters be assist only, though as it was stated by Max, part of the assist mechanic was risking them into getting hit and being killed. There's also the possibility of some highly requested characters being relegated to being assist only, which would probably kill interest for some people. We'll just have to wait till the official announcement I guess, it's a mere few days away.
If it actually happens.
If Polygon didn't say 2017, I would have guessed 2018 to coincide with Infinity War.
shaowebb
Member
My bad. Wrote that up too fast. Was trying to mention just the duration increase. Still a bonkers amount of bonus. Especially since the amount some got boosted over other cast wasn't the same. Some folks made no sense why they also needed to be Xfactor monsters.
Baroque still stands though as more fair in risk/reward. Xfactor FAR over rewarded. Hell in Vanilla we saw lvl 1 Xfactor Point Wolverine becoming a thing that wiped whole teams.
That wasn't how it worked. It was based on how many characters you had left. 3 characters alive = level 1, 1 alive = level 3
Edit: oh, beat, and you responded. Moving along then
Hot Coldman
Banned
I think a timeline of UMvC3 PS4 before Capcom Cup 2017 -> UMvC3 invitational/tournament at CC17 w/ heavy MvC4 promotion - MvC4 early 2018 would make a lot of sense. Capcom giving their dues to the MvC3 scene and paving the way for a multi-game Capcom Cup going forward.
Jawmuncher
Member
If it's 2017 they're hella rushing it then. 2018 for sure.
Yeah that's a really good point too, losing that risk/reward factor would be a shame.
I'm pretty split at this point. I'll just say that I'd keep an open mind to 2v2.
There are many reasons why 2v2 is not good for Marvel 4 or a step back. I can go on in detail but 90% of people here will not care because they care more about their favorite character making in than game mechanics. This is not a diss to them, everyone has their preferences and priorities... I want as many people to revel in the hype of Marvel as possible even if you don't play the game.
2v2 with assist is nothing new to the VS series. It was done in Marvel Super Heroes vs Street Fighter where your partner came out as the assist. 2v2 with assist was done again in Marvel vs Capcom 1 only this time you chose a 3rd assist character as your only assist.
These are not the most popular VS games and while the assist system was perfectly fine back in the day the series continued to evolve and culminated in the game that is Marvel 2.
3 on 3, two assists that your partners have to do. No longer do you play 2 characters one by one... now you are playing a team. Synergies matter far more, team order matters far more, assist selection and combinations matter more. It was a paradigm shift for fighting games and it gave birth to actual fighting game theory crafting that is more advance than just analyzing match ups and character strengths. There is now more risk to calling assists because you can lose health/character off of bad assist calls. It also gave birth to character positions and roles.... stuff like point, battery, support, anchor, secondary etc.
It was an evolution of the VS series in every sense of the word but Marvel 2 did not perfect that formula. Marvel 3 took things further by adopting the formula and despite many improvements it still has not maximized the potential of this system.
When people talk about Marvel these days they talk about player freedom, creativity and hype. Where does this comes from? It comes from team construction and execution. Someone constructs a new team that people have not seen before and cements it as HIS/HER team and no one can play the team like that. That is freedom, that is creativity and that is hype.
You look at the top 8 or so Marvel players in Marvel 3...ALMOST NO ONE PLAYS THE SAME TEAM! Justin plays Wolverine/Storm/Akuma, ChrisG Morrigan/Doom/Vergil, FChamp Magneto/Doom/Phoenix, Cloud805 Zero/Dante/Vergil, KBR Hulk/Haggar/Sentinel, Clockwork Vergil/Doom/Strider, Dual Kevin Deadpool/Dante/Hawkeye, Apologyman Firebrand/Doom/Skrull.
These are different teams with different strengths and weaknesses along with different strategies and win conditions. The match up permutations are endless and more importantly variable within a match. Oh noes, Magneto beats Haggar 9-1 KBR will never beat FChamp... psyche he whooped that candy ass in grand finals of ECT and got the EVO title before that. Why? Because that is only 1/3rd of the matchup, even less because assists are involved. You can't look at Marvel match ups as other fighting game match ups. You can't look at Marvel mechanics as other fighting game mechanics. What works in a 1v1 anime fighter may not work in a 3v3 fighter like this... Hell same for 2v2 fighters.
It's its own beast. It's complex, it's hard, execution heavy, punishing as hell, the combinations and permutations you have to know are vast, it's not a game that you can pick up and expect to do well at. As Yipes puts it, you will spend 2 years getting your ass whooped at the game and then maybe you stop sucking ass. This is what makes the game hype and compelling for fans at high level. Forget what you think you know about the game when you watch Foot Dives, Morrigan fireball spam, TODs, Missiles, X factor comeback... there is a whole lot going on in the background and getting to that stage that is difficult for most people to grasp. It's a hard game to play but so are some of the best games like Smash Melee.
It's not a fluke that Marvel 2 and Marvel 3 survived this long (unpatched and unsupported) where as other 2v2 fighters came and went.
2v2 with assist is nothing new to the VS series. It was done in Marvel Super Heroes vs Street Fighter where your partner came out as the assist. 2v2 with assist was done again in Marvel vs Capcom 1 only this time you chose a 3rd assist character as your only assist.
These are not the most popular VS games and while the assist system was perfectly fine back in the day the series continued to evolve and culminated in the game that is Marvel 2.
3 on 3, two assists that your partners have to do. No longer do you play 2 characters one by one... now you are playing a team. Synergies matter far more, team order matters far more, assist selection and combinations matter more. It was a paradigm shift for fighting games and it gave birth to actual fighting game theory crafting that is more advance than just analyzing match ups and character strengths. There is now more risk to calling assists because you can lose health/character off of bad assist calls. It also gave birth to character positions and roles.... stuff like point, battery, support, anchor, secondary etc.
It was an evolution of the VS series in every sense of the word but Marvel 2 did not perfect that formula. Marvel 3 took things further by adopting the formula and despite many improvements it still has not maximized the potential of this system.
When people talk about Marvel these days they talk about player freedom, creativity and hype. Where does this comes from? It comes from team construction and execution. Someone constructs a new team that people have not seen before and cements it as HIS/HER team and no one can play the team like that. That is freedom, that is creativity and that is hype.
You look at the top 8 or so Marvel players in Marvel 3...ALMOST NO ONE PLAYS THE SAME TEAM! Justin plays Wolverine/Storm/Akuma, ChrisG Morrigan/Doom/Vergil, FChamp Magneto/Doom/Phoenix, Cloud805 Zero/Dante/Vergil, KBR Hulk/Haggar/Sentinel, Clockwork Vergil/Doom/Strider, Dual Kevin Deadpool/Dante/Hawkeye, Apologyman Firebrand/Doom/Skrull.
These are different teams with different strengths and weaknesses along with different strategies and win conditions. The match up permutations are endless and more importantly variable within a match. Oh noes, Magneto beats Haggar 9-1 KBR will never beat FChamp... psyche he whooped that candy ass in grand finals of ECT and got the EVO title before that. Why? Because that is only 1/3rd of the matchup, even less because assists are involved. You can't look at Marvel match ups as other fighting game match ups. You can't look at Marvel mechanics as other fighting game mechanics. What works in a 1v1 anime fighter may not work in a 3v3 fighter like this... Hell same for 2v2 fighters.
It's its own beast. It's complex, it's hard, execution heavy, punishing as hell, the combinations and permutations you have to know are vast, it's not a game that you can pick up and expect to do well at. As Yipes puts it, you will spend 2 years getting your ass whooped at the game and then maybe you stop sucking ass. This is what makes the game hype and compelling for fans at high level. Forget what you think you know about the game when you watch Foot Dives, Morrigan fireball spam, TODs, Missiles, X factor comeback... there is a whole lot going on in the background and getting to that stage that is difficult for most people to grasp. It's a hard game to play but so are some of the best games like Smash Melee.
It's not a fluke that Marvel 2 and Marvel 3 survived this long (unpatched and unsupported) where as other 2v2 fighters came and went.
Poltergust
Member
No, the duration did not factor in the amount of meter you had. It was completely dependent on the number of characters alive in your team.
Spider-Man could use a complete reboot, IMO.
I don't think his moveset is or was very compelling, and MSH was my favorite game.
Both him and Cap's original move sets in MSH were not incredibly inspired and fighting games have come a long way. Spider-Man and Cap being kinda shoto-esque in MSH tied Capcom's hands a bit too much.
Hulk and Iron Man are a little better in that regard, but it wouldn't bother me for them to be shaken up a bit too.
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