Support NeoGAF

[64bitmodels]

What does Disney have to do with this?

Is that the go-to argument?

taking the "safe route" is not guaranteed to be "safe" forever. Eventually the fatigue sets in. Then what?

Should Sony just keep pumping God of War and TLOU forever when both those franchises are decades old? It's not like they're consistently reinventing and changing their gameplay a la Mario, the last reboot GOW had was 6 years ago and TLOU hasn't even recieved any major change to its style or formula ever.

It's really just Xbox dying. The rest is doing fine and will do so as well next-gen.

If Sony's so immune, why did Spiderman 2 cost 300 million? why do they feel the sudden need to pivot to GaaS? why the PC ports? Why're they abandoning PSVR2? Nintendo's never had such drastic changes in their strategy and they still can't seem to stop printing Switch money.

No one here is saying Nintendo or Valve or Meta or whatever is crumbling. Hell no one here's even saying Sony's crumbling- they're simply responding to market trends and increasing costs of development accordingly.

Great point, that I also have been saying. Recent example for Sony: Helldivers 2. The first game wasn't a blockbuster hit. Smaller games can and would turn into major franchises, if companies wasn't so hell bent on chasing every gaas dollar.

A great games series will EVENTUALLY get attention. Even if it has no advertisements. Even if the first few entries don't sell well.

If you've got gold on your hands, it's only a matter of time before people find out. Again Animal Crossing. First game on GC didn't sell all that hot. If they followed the Sony/Killjoy (very good name) mentality the franchise would've been shelved right there and then.

they gave it another chance on DS and Wii, sold 15 million between both versions. Then again with 3DS, sold 13 million.

Now we're in 2024, and New Horizons on Switch is one of the most successful games of the past decade. Imagine how far Gravity Rush could've gotten with that mentality.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

taking the "safe route" is not guaranteed to be "safe" forever. Eventually the fatigue sets in. Then what?

Should Sony just keep pumping God of War and TLOU forever when both those franchises are decades old? It's not like they're consistently reinventing and changing their gameplay a la Mario, the last reboot GOW had was 6 years ago and TLOU hasn't even recieved any major change to its style or formula ever.

Afaik ND and SSM are working on completely new IPs.

If Sony's so immune, why did Spiderman 2 cost 300 million? why do they feel the sudden need to pivot to GaaS? why the PC ports? Why're they abandoning PSVR2? Nintendo's never had such drastic changes in their strategy and they still can't seem to stop printing Switch money.

Going from Wii U to Switch was a way more drastic change than Sony adding more Gaas to their output, since Sony always had multiplayer games.

And I never said Sony is immune to anything. PS3 is proof of them being vulnerable as well.
As is Nintendo going by Gamecube and Wii U.

Saying "for now" is really a lame attempt as an argument though.

 

[Roxkis_ii]

How much did Microsoft pay for this article?

Bro, this has Microsoft stink all over it.

"Guys, guys, no one can afford to make exclusive games, not just Xbox!"

Good businesses ajust to the market, not the other way around. Its only Microsoft who are egotistical enough to think that they can reshape the market, then try to attribute their failures to the market, and not their own decisions.

 

[Denorion]

Honest Question, Microsoft is the one clearly pushing this narrative that exclusives are anti-consumer, that games are too expensive to justify that (ignoring that it's because they just closed a poorly planned massive acquisition)

Why are they pushing this narrative? It's not like Sony will ever change their stance because of a few polygon articles

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

It's nice to see Polygon not even trying to hide the MS paycheck.

How is this a MS thing? Sony has barely released anything this gen and how much of what they have released are on two or more platforms? PS4, PS5, PC.

GoW Ragnarok - two platforms and coming to PC
Returnal - PS5 and PC
Horizon FW - three platforms
GT7 - two platforms
Demons Soul - PS5 only
Spider-Man 2 - will come to PC
Ratchet and Clank - two platforms
Miles Morales - three platforms
MLB is on five platforms now
Sack boy - three platforms

Am I forgetting anything? Sony has been doing the more than one platform thing all generation, some of you have just been too focused on Xbox to pay attention.

 

[Klayzer]

taking the "safe route" is not guaranteed to be "safe" forever. Eventually the fatigue sets in. Then what?

Should Sony just keep pumping God of War and TLOU forever when both those franchises are decades old? It's not like they're consistently reinventing and changing their gameplay a la Mario, the last reboot GOW had was 6 years ago and TLOU hasn't even recieved any major change to its style or formula ever.

If Sony's so immune, why did Spiderman 2 cost 300 million? why do they feel the sudden need to pivot to GaaS? why the PC ports? Why're they abandoning PSVR2? Nintendo's never had such drastic changes in their strategy and they still can't seem to stop printing Switch money.

No one here is saying Nintendo or Valve or Meta or whatever is crumbling. Hell no one here's even saying Sony's crumbling- they're simply responding to market trends and increasing costs of development accordingly.

A great games series will EVENTUALLY get attention. Even if it has no advertisements. Even if the first few entries don't sell well.

If you've got gold on your hands, it's only a matter of time before people find out. Again Animal Crossing. First game on GC didn't sell all that hot. If they followed the Sony/Killjoy (very good name) mentality the franchise would've been shelved right there and then.

they gave it another chance on DS and Wii, sold 15 million between both versions. Then again with 3DS, sold 13 million.

Now we're in 2024, and New Horizons on Switch is one of the most successful games of the past decade. Imagine how far Gravity Rush could've gotten with that mentality.

Patience, is one of the traits, I respect the most about Nintendo's approach to gaming. You rarely see them chase the latest fads of the industry.

 

[64bitmodels]

Patience, is one of the traits, I respect the most about Nintendo's approach to gaming. You rarely see them chase the latest fads of the industry.

It's what happens when you have better control of your shares and set boundaries for investors i'd assume. Little pressure from outside retards constantly telling you to make this or make that. Same reason that Valve (and GOG to some extent) manages to conk on by quite fine while every other PC distributor has a fetish for shooting themselves in the foot

 

[Tomi]

Yes you can
But companies are hungry for money, and they want million and millions $ plus from every game, but stuff doesnt function like that
As long stays this way we will go downhill in gaming, and i think we still have stupid management all over the world

 

[Kerotan]

The biggest ones you definitely can. Should you? In most cases no.

 

[Astral Dog]

Of course there will still be exclusive games (console exclusives, even if they eventually come out on PC) , but they will be mostly driven by first party publishers, not the old ways of third party companies releasing exclusive titles for X,Y or Z platform.

and yes, it will be to drive potential audiences to purchase distinct consoles.its not like exclusive content is going to instantly dissappear as these opinion Articles claim, its just going to become rarer, and more 'exclusive' even something like Smash Bros getting third party characters is a big deal and can help to drive gamers to a purchase

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

Nonsense...

Yes, you can.

 

[poppabk]

Think the new route is to make an entire multimedia slate for games. We saw how Fallout created a market for a Fallout show, which in turn drove Fallout game sales.
Cyberpunk, Last of Us, Like a Dragon, Witcher (maybe) - things are really looking up in this area.

 

[Punished Miku]

Think the new route is to make an entire multimedia slate for games. We saw how Fallout created a market for a Fallout show, which in turn drove Fallout game sales.
Cyberpunk, Last of Us, Like a Dragon, Witcher (maybe) - things are really looking up in this area.

Except for Halo lol. What a wreck that was.

 

[mayham2199]

Think the new route is to make an entire multimedia slate for games. We saw how Fallout created a market for a Fallout show, which in turn drove Fallout game sales.
Cyberpunk, Last of Us, Like a Dragon, Witcher (maybe) - things are really looking up in this area.

It's clearly what Sony is doing. So far every project has been at least decent if not great. I thought Uncharted was decent. GT was actually really good. TLOU was great. Will see how their other projects do but so far they are doing great.

 

[Gambit2483]

Maybe some of them like to make big ass games with big budgets...

Working on a big project should be something that make you proud (on paper).

I'm against turning single player devs into gaas devs like sony is doing, but i have nothing against big ass simgle player AAA with big budgets.

True, but they really really need to get some of these budgets under control. Some of these games are just too bloated when the staff credits literally take upwards of 20 minutes to scroll.

 

[Last Hearth]

Sorry, no. Nintendo has the most valuable thing in the world, the thing that every tech company spends gazillions of dollars on. A platform. You don't throw it away for some short term profits, which is why what Microsoft and now Sony did is ultimately self-defeating.

The Wii U paradoxically showed the value of having that platform. Even though the system stunk and failed, they sold a lot of games on it. Like 8 million copies of Mario Kart 8. They were able to maintain customer loyalty even through that bad platform.

People keeping attributing Nintendo’s success to loyalty. But it’s not that, it’s just that they are the only ones focusing on the introductory gaming console for children business, so all the kids who turn 4 or 5 and the parent want to give them something to play with, that’s their only real choice. They aren’t buying a PS or XBox, they want their kids to play Mario, not Last of Us or Starfield.

 

[diffusionx]

People keeping attributing Nintendo’s success to loyalty. But it’s not that, it’s just that they are the only ones focusing on the introductory gaming console for children business, so all the kids who turn 4 or 5 and the parent want to give them something to play with, that’s their only real choice. They aren’t buying a PS or XBox, they want their kids to play Mario, not Last of Us or Starfield.

Yes, but WHY do people want their kids to play Mario? Because THEY played Mario when they were kids. Nintendo, over decades, has built a generational business around their software and hardware. It is a business that can last indefinitely, for many more decades. If they listen to people on forums and start porting their games to PC and PlayStation, that is done. It's over. Maybe the kids play Mario maybe they don't, and in 20 years nobody cares and Mario is alongside the thousand other dead franchises in videogames. They're just another EA and EA lives or dies based on whatever is happening in the moment and need to resort to scummy micro transactions to make their shareholders happy.

 

[Last Hearth]

Yes, but WHY do people want their kids to play Mario? Because THEY played Mario when they were kids. Nintendo, over decades, has built a generational business around their software and hardware. It is a business that can last indefinitely, for many more decades. If they listen to people on forums and start porting their games to PC and PlayStation, that is done. It's over. Maybe the kids play Mario maybe they don't, and in 20 years nobody cares and Mario is alongside the thousand other dead franchises in videogames. They're just another EA and EA lives or dies based on whatever is happening in the moment and need to resort to scummy micro transactions to make their shareholders happy.

No, sure they played and liked Mario, but if there were other kid friendly consoles they might buy that one too. But there isn’t one, the other consoles are marketing themselves as where you play God of War or Grand Theft Auto, so the parents have a pretty clear choice.

 

[Mobilemofo]

I'd have thought that addressing the cost of making games as whole should be a priority really. Obviously, no publisher is going to gain max returns from releasing on one platform, so address the costs. There must be a way to have some sort of standardisation across the industry.

 

[RickMasters]

Yes you can.

Make them shorter, release them more frequently, and stop spending 500 million dollars to make them.

This (release on 1 platform) formula has worked for decades, it doesn't just stop working overnight - These publishers are just being greedy. Making billions isnt enough, making the same amount of money they made last year isnt enough - They have to make WAY MORE money than last year, or its a failure.

You mean AA games?

 

[RickMasters]

People keeping attributing Nintendo’s success to loyalty. But it’s not that, it’s just that they are the only ones focusing on the introductory gaming console for children business, so all the kids who turn 4 or 5 and the parent want to give them something to play with, that’s their only real choice. They aren’t buying a PS or XBox, they want their kids to play Mario, not Last of Us or Starfield.

Mario is like….. Mickey Mouse or bugs bunny. He is a timeless character at this point. Always gonna be the first choice for parents introducing their kids to games

 

[darrylgorn]

Sure you can.

But why would you want to?

 

[mnkl13]

that's very subjective... if everyone has said platform, you don't have to put it on any other. maybe the bigger problem is people not paying the games and paying subscriptions instead

 

[tr1p1ex]

Sorry, no. Nintendo has the most valuable thing in the world, the thing that every tech company spends gazillions of dollars on. A platform. You don't throw it away for some short term profits, which is why what Microsoft and now Sony did is ultimately self-defeating.

The Wii U paradoxically showed the value of having that platform. Even though the system stunk and failed, they sold a lot of games on it. Like 8 million copies of Mario Kart 8. They were able to maintain customer loyalty even through that bad platform.

The brand is the valuable thing.

The platform lets them better control the brand and make more money from the brand. But as the Wii U shows that control can also help them make less money from the brand.

 

[cinnamonandgravy]

whatever, then do AA exclusives.

not really seeing those either.

 

[midnightAI]

 

[SHA]

Yes you can.

Make them shorter, release them more frequently, and stop spending 500 million dollars to make them.

This (release on 1 platform) formula has worked for decades, it doesn't just stop working overnight - These publishers are just being greedy. Making billions isnt enough, making the same amount of money they made last year isnt enough - They have to make WAY MORE money than last year, or its a failure.

That's common sense, it always felt like there is a legit room for improvement, never thought for once there isn't, but at the end of the day it all comes down to the %1, all the hardworking people live on that 1 percent, that's the most insecure thing I've ever heard, cause it backfire at the same people which usually prevents the chances of making more of the same thing that we'd experienced before.

 

[RaZoR No1]

Who the F wants AAA games that cost around 500 million to develop??
I think the "AAA" devs have lost their minds..
Of course you wont be able to recoup the dev costs and generate a win with that costs.
They have to sell the game around 7,143 Million times just to get back the development costs... at full price! no discounts etc.
No wonder nearly all AAA games flop or are seen as a financial failures.
They set the bar too high for the games.


Currently something is going really wrong.
Either they have too much overhead / managers or they just cannot manage big teams anymore.

I thought with the new consoles/tools everything gets much easier over time?

Always remember:
Too many cooks spoil the broth.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

Why are they pushing this narrative? It's not like Sony will ever change their stance because of a few polygon articles

You're right about Sony.
Maybe it's a preparation for Xbox fans when MS becomes 100% multiplatform or another attempt by MS to do away with hardware dedicated to games, it's the only way for the 3DO model to work, Sony agrees.
From now on I reject the lazy idea of uniting hardware, each company needs to have its own hardware, Microsoft has already competed for 20 years, no one will be sad if they and only they decide to port their games to the Playstation and the new Switch.

 

[SportsFan581]

It's really just Xbox dying. The rest is doing fine and will do so as well next-gen.

Most likely the industry will see much more healthy competition without Xbox.

I think Sony is doing everything they can to foreshadow upcoming changes in their pipeline. The deciding factor is what they deem sustainable and what they consider profitable enough for them.

Either that or their marketing/PR department has just lost the plot and is completely out of the loop regarding plans for PS.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

I think Sony is doing everything they can to foreshadow upcoming changes in their pipeline. The deciding factor is what they deem sustainable and what they consider profitable enough for them.

Either that or their marketing/PR department has just lost the plot and is completely out of the loop regarding plans for PS.

I think it's just that the gaming community had been complaining for years that Playstation announced their games way too early and now they're waiting until development is well underway before they announce their games, so people don't have to wait too long for games to release after they're announced.
And since development nowadays takes longer, it takes longer before games are being announced.

That's why they have been relying on 3rd party a lot this gen.
Only now after the MS ABK acquisition, they said they want to become less reliant on 3rd party, but these things take time as well.
They have to start new projects, get new teams/studios together, invest, etc. That can't be done overnight.

 

[SportsFan581]

@ Killjoy-NL , it does seem better for the hype cycle to tighten the time from announce to release. That's a logical move.

The whole industry comes across as unprepared for this hardware generation, even though last-gen was not truncated or anything. Taking 3 or 4 years to get revved up is certainly something new.

 

[Stooky]

1. Stop building studios in places like California which has absurdly high cost of living/taxes and therefore you have to pay top dollars in salaries and office space. Note how a studio like Remedy can make AAA games for under $100m.

mmmm no. most of the talent and production is in cali. just need more smedium sized games. Cali is big state and is not just LA and San Fransisco.

2. Stop wasting money on consultants to come in and tell you if your game is appropriate for "modern" audiences. Games didn't need that 20 years ago. They don't need them now. It's ok if your game offends some people.

consultants are important and are not just for ‘woke agenda’. offend the wrong group it could tank sales of your game. consultants can help you reach a wider audience. just remember your are trying to sell a product.

3. Focus on gameplay instead of chasing graphics. I appreciate good looking games, but it's really not necessary to waste your artists' time drawing the most realistic trees.

graphics sell games. it’s the first thing you see

4. Minimize bloat in games and just make a really good core experience. Games don't need to have 1000 side quests just so you can artificially lengthen the game to justify the $70 price tag.

the goal is to keep you in the game as long as possible and off the used game sale rack. not to justify a $70 price tag.

 

[6502]

These consoles and games are going to price themselves out of reach if they don't change course, just like arcades did going from 20/50p a play to £20k units at £2 a throw. It requires too much investment and eats up too much disposable income for consumers and thus goes from ubiquitous to niche pretty fast.

 

[Kataploom]

That is not possible. The only reason nintendo is getting away with it is that their prices never drops. So 10m is 600m-700m revenue. While Sony 10m isnt close to 700m Its more like 500+m revenue due to price drop.

Nintendo 20m can bring 1.4b, while Sony only gets close to a billion.

As if this was a small number lol.

Hell, they can even fail 3 times, succeed in the 4th time and still make profit... (the problem is it would take them 15 to 20 years until a success lol)

 

[Kataploom]

This seems like a behind the scenes campaign from Microsoft being feed to their zealots. Exclusives are suddenly bad and not profitable. Nintendo and Sony prove otherwise.
Yes it's not ideal for third-party or Gaas games. but for successful Platform owners, it's still important.

 

[feynoob]

As if this was a small number lol.

Hell, they can even fail 3 times, succeed in the 4th time and still make profit... (the problem is it would take them 15 to 20 years until a success lol)

People aren't realizing that tears of kingdom took 6 years, with reused assets, cheap graphics and the polishing year. If a game like that takes that long, then regular games would be way too long.

New games would see 5-6 years gap. Not counting starting again with new directions.

 

[Kataploom]

People aren't realizing that tears of kingdom took 6 years, with reused assets, cheap graphics and the polishing year. If a game like that takes that long, then regular games would be way too long.

New games would see 5-6 years gap. Not counting starting again with new directions.

That's where you fail, sure it's not plagued by detail for the sake of it but stylized assets can be more complex to do than realistic ones, and the process is the same for Switch or PS5 anyway.

I think the problem is that western studios want to make EVERYTHING AAA instead of managing like Nintendo and do some AAA and most AA or A.

AAA can exist but not everything has to be 200+M and 1000 people.

 

[simpatico]

But Selaco was made by 1 person?

 

[Sethbacca]

That is not possible. The only reason nintendo is getting away with it is that their prices never drops. So 10m is 600m-700m revenue. While Sony 10m isnt close to 700m Its more like 500+m revenue due to price drop.

Nintendo 20m can bring 1.4b, while Sony only gets close to a billion.

Nintendo is able to get away with it because platform exclusives matter. People literally buy Nintendo to play exclusive games which undercuts the entire premise of this thread.

 

[Halo is Back]

This seems like a behind the scenes campaign from Microsoft being feed to their zealots. Exclusives are suddenly bad and not profitable. Nintendo and Sony prove otherwise.
Yes it's not ideal for third-party or Gaas games. but for successful Platform owners, it's still important.

Almost all of the "SONY exclusives" eventually come out to PC. The only platform that has legitimate exclusive games is Nintendo at this point.

 

[OmegaSupreme]

Almost all of the "SONY exclusives" eventually come out to PC. The only platform that has legitimate exclusive games is Nintendo at this point.

Only one is bringing exclusives to a whole other platform though. The same platform that's been whipping them for years. That's a big difference. PC is extra money for Sony. It's completely necessary for the Xbox to stay in the game. That's another huge difference.

 

[Shin-Ra]

So you look at the two extreme ends of the AAA console game exclusivity spectrum, Nintendo at one end and Xbox at the other and the conclusion is that everyone should be like Xbox?

 

[OmegaSupreme]

So you look at the two extreme ends of the AAA console game exclusivity spectrum, Nintendo at one end and Xbox at the other and the conclusion is that everyone should be like Xbox?

Follow the loser? Makes total sense!

 

[DavJay]

Use Xbox 360 level hardware running on SSD. Geez not like graphics are mind losing these days

 

[feynoob]

Nintendo is able to get away with it because platform exclusives matter. People literally buy Nintendo to play exclusive games which undercuts the entire premise of this thread.

That is just ballock. Their shitty graphics and never drop prices is why they are profit.

Mario Kart 8 Deluxe: 61.97 million units
that game alone made them 3.7b sales. Why? because that shit game never drops prices.

This is ragnorak on sale.

God of War Ragnarök

Join Kratos and Atreus to explore the mythic Nine Realms in search of answers and allies in God of War Ragnarok. View the game overview, trailer, and more.

www.playstation.com

This is the last of us 2 price tag

The Last of Us Part II Remastered - PS5 Games | PlayStation

Experience Ellie and Abby’s emotional journeys, remastered for PS5®.

www.playstation.com

This is breath of wild price tag

The Legend of Zelda™: Breath of the Wild for Nintendo Switch - Nintendo Official Site

Buy The Legend of Zelda™: Breath of the Wild and shop other great Nintendo products online at the official My Nintendo Store.

www.nintendo.com

Mario kart 8 price tag

Mario Kart™ 8 Deluxe for Nintendo Switch - Nintendo Official Site

Buy Mario Kart™ 8 Deluxe and shop other great Nintendo products online at the official My Nintendo Store.

www.nintendo.com

That is the difference between both platforms.

 

[SkylineRKR]

I'm sure Astro Bot can be on one platform. The game looks great, and I doubt it costs more than a fraction of a new Last of Us to make.

Like a Dragon games recycle a lot, but they do come out at a steady pace and they are always good, which is ultimately what matters. They are more fun than a walking simulator like Hellblade or Alan Wake 2.

 

[OmegaSupreme]

I'm sure Astro Bot can be on one platform. The game looks great, and I doubt it costs more than a fraction of a new Last of Us to make.

Like a Dragon games recycle a lot, but they do come out at a steady pace and they are always good, which is ultimately what matters. They are more fun than a walking simulator like Hellblade or Alan Wake 2.

Alan Wake is a walking simulator? That's news to me.

 

[FIREKNIGHT2029]

I wonder how much MS paid for this dogshit article

 

[Sethbacca]

That is just ballock. Their shitty graphics and never drop prices is why they are profit.

You're literally undercutting your entire argument in your own statement. Why is it that they never have to drop their prices? What could it possibly be that allows them to maintain that?

Could it possibly be that you can't buy Nintendo games anywhere but Nintendo?