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[SigSig]

No it isn't, that's just the way popularity works. If you say something to 100 thousand people that makes them think you're an asshole, and a bunch of people mention that you are an asshole, it is just the logical consequence. There is no need to go censor the whole internet because a famous asshole can't take seeing people call him an asshole.

There are a lot people posting stuff on the internet Gaf, Reddit, /v/ doesn't agree with. But how many of these are driven to the point Phil Fish was driven to?
Driveby shitposting is one thing, but contributing to a mob which's only goal is to absolutely destroy a person is a different thing.

 

[OverdriveOtaku]

You don't want to bring somebody into your company who causes drama and has no respect for the industry. It would harm Valves image. Not only that, Phil isn't even remotely talented as the people you listed.

And Valve people do a good job at staying quiet too...

 

[-COOLIO-]

I mean, if you make a comment like "if gaming was a building I'd burn it to the ground with you all inside".. I don't really.. care, what you think anymore. Like. You've lost that right to have my attention.

You make comments like that frequently enough, people will think you're an ass. You will become "that guy." Then, to be offended that people think you're an ass? Well, don't say stuff like that then. The big one was when he said Japanese games suck or whatever. The issue is that the video (or he) didn't clarify that he didn't mean "right now" or "for the most part." It was a blanket statement that got framed as something he represented.

So then, every time he said something rash it became a way to view it in that context, which in turn justified the idea that he was an asshole. He really set himself up to be seen as "that guy" without any real effort to be seen otherwise.

ill put it this way.

im weighing each one of his malicious comments against malicious comments made against him, and the score is like 3,000,000 to 26 in the mobs favor. i just cant be mad at him knowing the shit he has to put up with just by browsing the internet.

at the end of the day its just fucking videogames. who cares if he insults "gamer culture"? i cant even muster half a shit.

 

[Goddard]

Phil Fish is neither a cunt or an asshole.
Throwing around dumb posts like this is actually worse than every single "outrageous" thing he ever posted on twitter, so guess what? You people are the cunts and assholes continuing to kick a man while he's down.

Saying "kick a man while he's down" implies that we are responsible for bringing him down. Not true and a silly thing to say. Also you are not the universal ruler on whether or not he is an asshole. Lol.

Being against feminism (especially in the "anti-SJW" way that they marked this attack) is not the same as being critical of feminism.

At some point it was imo. Like at the very earliest moments, as in the first 10 minutes probably that the five guys video was released, people were being legitimately critical of what was going on. It got extremist really fucking quickly though.

 

[Shinta]

Being against feminism (especially in the "anti-SJW" way that they marked this attack) is not the same as being critical of feminism.

It can be. You'd have to listen to the critique of feminism to know.

It's lazy and manipulative to try and act like anyone opposed to feminism is anti-equality. Lots of women are not feminists. Are they anti-equality?

 

[SolidsnackooFoxhound]

And Valve people do a good job at staying quiet too...

They don't threaten to burn people in a building now do they? Gimme a link to twitter where Valve has made stupid threats.

 

[Ninja Dom]

Erm, hi guys, I've just woken up and there's a 22 page thread.

Anyone care to summarize what happened and why? I don't really know much about Phil Fish. But I got Fez on my Vita from PS+

 

[Asgaro]

>/V/

alright. You got me.

GTA V made me do it.

 

[MormaPope]

The internet is absolutely not a democracy, it is a place that is supposed to have no ties to any power. Which is why people fight back so hard whenever they find out about shit like SOPA, PIPA, PRISM, or any other bullshit that fights to censor the people. Not that I'm advocating for fuckheads hellbent on destruction, obviously, they will face their consequences, but censorship goes way deeper than pulling out a few weeds here and there.

Not necessarily.

I don't think the mods here have 30 minute discussions on if they should ban somebody because that person went on an insane, racist tirade. Sometimes its easy to call a spade a spade. If somebody starts a thread on a forum somewhere about systematically tracking down info about Phil Spencer because he knew somebody at Frito Lay, that thread being plucked and dumped wouldn't change much.

 

[Conan-san]

obligatory to all the "he's an asshole" statements
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmTUW-owa2w

So he's an arsehole who doesn't know how to manage his PR worth a salty damn.

 

[SigSig]

Sorry, but if I acted the way Fish has, being called an "Arsehole" would be getting off light.

Post any statement by Fish which justifies a ton of posts calling him a cunt (or worse).
Hard mode: No quoting out of context allowed.

 

[jkanownik]

Could it be that all that has been happening recently is actually...

Spoiler

Frog Fractions 2

?

Think about it.

Twinbeard/Jim is way too nice for that.

Spoiler

Although there is a chance he created a rogue AI that is responsible. FF2 could be sentient at this point.

 

[unbias]

I only say that because someone posted earlier some svn information was leaked, Hopefully he managed to kill that off before anything was taken.

I'll be honest, I'm trying to wrap my head around how much of his stuff got hacked. Either there were some hackers wanting to really ruin him(or for the challenge) or he didnt properly secure his information. When you have something worth more then 6 figures you dont simply use two step verification, you use multi-factor. It's a troubling thought that indie devs that hit it big have not secured their shit.

 

[Liamario]

Ironically, that's one of the primary criticisms of Fish himself.

This may be the case, but I don't follow him on twitter. But people should hold themselves to a higher standard. But it doesn't change my point about people all of a sudden being empathetic. It's hypocritical- you should try and be consistent with your standards. I'm not perfect and nobody is for that matter, but you should hold your hand up when you've made a mistake.

 

[BertleTheTurtle]

I hope Edmund isn't next. He did retweet that stupid patreon link but hasn't said anything else on the matter.

I want my binding of isaac vita.

 

[Dragonborn]

It's possible to criticize feminism, but be completely supportive of equality. In many cases, it would actually be necessary to criticize it, unless you think it is literally infallible.

It depends on the brand of femnism. For example, I really dislike the radical kind found on places like tumble, which preach superiority instead of actual equality. At the same time I like and support those who seek true equality.

 

[dark_inferno]

You don't want to bring somebody into your company who causes drama and has no respect for the industry. It would harm Valves image. Not only that, Phil isn't even remotely talented as the people you listed.

From what i know about Valve (how they handle their employees) could have employees who arent even half as talented as Fish.

And Valve got Icefrog. You didnt know about the outrage that was caused by this right?

 

[ZServ]

ill put it this way.

im weighing each one of his malicious comments against malicious comments made against him, and the score is like 3,000,000 to 26 in the mobs favor. i just cant be mad at him knowing the shit he has to put up with just by browsing the internet.

at the end of the day its just fucking videogames. who cares if he insults "gamer culture"? i cant even muster half a shit.

Oh neither can I. I think he's an ass, not a bad person. Hell, Fish amuses the hell outta me. But keep in mind, there are people who get mad that some use "xmas" instead of "christmas."

People are stupid, in general.

 

[enzo_gt]

I can't believe anyone is still seriously entertaining that it was /v/ that did it. I think you need to have little to no conception of how 4chan works to implicate an entire board, or even "members" of that board in this act. There is no scenario where you can point the finger at an anonymous community as a whole, or it's leadership, especially with that silly, almost parody-like hack readings.

Hell, it could be someone or some people that post there every once in a while but that is ultimately irrelevant. Whoever organized this, did so independently from the varied society that is /v/.

Are there any public figures who have had contact with Phil since the hack? I'm not sure if all this talk of him having mental illness is true, but if so, something like this would be incredibly hard to deal with. I just hope the dude is okay.

This was pages ago, but I'm quoting it again because I feel this is the real danger ATM.

Nothing against Cliff but im not sure if he is the right guy for a game like FEZ. But whoever buys Polytron and Fez should also get Fish on board.

A Fez game without Fish is not Fez.

Eh, I don't think so. I think the concept of Fez is pretty simple, and the execution is definitely the most lackluster part of the game. Would love to see a different pair of eyes on the mechanics. But that's a discussion for another thread.

 

[Shinta]

It depends on the brand of femnism. For example, I really dislike the radical kind found on places like tumble, which preach superiority instead of actual equality. At the same time I like and support those who seek true equality.

That sums up almost everyone criticizing feminism right now.

Overly simplistic, but I don't want to derail too much. But yeah, lots of people feel that way. It has nothing to do with being "anti-equality." It's specifically anti-feminism, because of the kinds of tactics, rhetoric, and positions they use and take.

 

[SolidsnackooFoxhound]

From what i know about Valve (how they handle their employees) could have employees who arent even half as talented as Fish.

And Valve got Icefrog. You didnt know about the outrage that was caused by this right?

Gabe threatened to kill people?

 

[BobbyRobby]

When it comes to people hell bent on doing shit not relevant to anything but destruction?

The internet isn't a democracy, censorship isn't against the rules and censoring people that are hellbent on negative growth wouldn't be a bad thing in my book. Hell, NeoGaf is censored, in really smart ways.

What are bannings really? Censoring somebody who doesn't value the site and rules.

On private communities like neogaf, sure. They can censor.

But anonymity is very important for people like whistleblowers.

Also look at Arab Spring.

 

[Im_So_Pringles]

Shit like this makes me really, really want to steer clear from ever being a game developer.

 

[SigSig]

Saying "kick a man while he's down" implies that we are responsible for bringing him down. Not true and a silly thing to say. Also you are not the universal ruler on whether or not he is an asshole. Lol.

Every single person who participated in the abuse he gets shares the responsibility.
What's so hard to get about this? If you are ganging up on a kid in school, everyone who participated is at fault. Mobbing is not about who bullies the hardest.
I guess it's easy to hide behind dat internet anonymity and dismiss this responsibility.

 

[SolidsnackooFoxhound]

Shit like this makes me really, really want to steer clear from ever being a game developer.

Just don't say stupid shit and you'll be fine. Saying Japanese games are shit is a sure way to attract negative attention.

 

[Some Nobody]

It depends on the brand of femnism. For example, I really dislike the radical kind found on places like tumble, which preach superiority instead of actual equality. At the same time I like and support those who seek true equality.

Can I do that without being called an MRA? Is that okay now? Was never clear on it.

 

[dark_inferno]

Gabe threatened to kill people?

People wanted to see Icefrog and Gabe dead because their beloved Dota is now Valves property.

 

[Goddard]

There are a lot people posting stuff on the internet Gaf, Reddit, /v/ doesn't agree with. But how many of these are driven to the point Phil Fish was driven to?
Driveby shitposting is one thing, but contributing to a mob which's only goal is to absolutely destroy a person is a different thing.

ill put it this way.

im weighing each one of his malicious comments against malicious comments made against him, and the score is like 3,000,000 to 26 in the mobs favor. i just cant be mad at him knowing the shit he has to put up with just by browsing the internet.

at the end of the day its just fucking videogames. who cares if he insults "gamer culture"? i cant even muster half a shit.

You are completely free to have and share your opinion which is that you don't have a problem with Phil Fish. However, again, it is a direct and logical consequence of having a lot of popularity. It is not one person controlling a twitter account and another person who happens to control all other twitter accounts fighting against each other, it is one man posting something that sets off a shit load of people, and a shit load people calling him out for it. Just because a lot of people are doing it doesn't make it some big orchestrated effort to destroy Phil Fish (although that is apparently happening elsewhere,) it is just what happens when your words get heard around the world. I have no pity for a man that tested the waters with a few controversial comments, realized what the consequences of his actions were, and continued to do it. In my books that makes a man an asshole.

It is obviously a bit irrelevant though, the dude may have just had his life ruined, which is obviously not a logical consequence of being a dick, that is just fucking insanity.

 

[Petrae]

I mean, if you make a comment like "if gaming was a building I'd burn it to the ground with you all inside".. I don't really.. care, what you think anymore. Like. You've lost that right to have my attention.

You make comments like that frequently enough, people will think you're an ass. You will become "that guy." Then, to be offended that people think you're an ass? Well, don't say stuff like that then. The big one was when he said Japanese games suck or whatever. The issue is that the video (or he) didn't clarify that he didn't mean "right now" or "for the most part." It was a blanket statement that got framed as something he represented.

So then, every time he said something rash it became a way to view it in that context, which in turn justified the idea that he was an asshole. He really set himself up to be seen as "that guy" without any real effort to be seen otherwise.

I'm in agreement. Fish enjoyed pushing the social media envelope, presumably as a master troll artist (or something similar)-- but when the backlash got to be too much, he'd turtle up or even leave for awhile. He rarely made an effort to dispel the notion that he was being a jerk or being viewed as a jerk; he possibly reveled in that, as he seemed to crave the attention.

I can separate my strong dislike of the man and the way he carried himself in the public eye from what's been an inexcusable attack on him and his work. Fish has in no way merited such a vicious response.

 

[SolidsnackooFoxhound]

People wanted to see Icefrog and Gabe dead because their beloved Dota is now Valves property.

I think you misunderstood me. I'm talking about the employees being unprofessional not the fans.

 

[Ketch]

Can any non-insane person summarize what has happened here?

From what I gather, Phil Fish's twitter and website were hacked and a bunch of private business information was revealed… and then somehow this is connected to Zoe Quinn whose been flamed by a jealous ex-boyfriend? and now Fish is quitting games and the internet for a fourth time? Does any of this actually have anything to do with video games?

It's worse then the Enquirer.

 

[Nome]

obligatory to all the "he's an asshole" statements
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmTUW-owa2w

Phil is disliked because he's not just the worst, but one of the *only* horrifically toxic *public* personalities in gaming. I've met much worse industry people in person, but Phil is the only one stupid enough to be open with the vitriol. That video is way off the mark.

 

[unbias]

Shit like this makes me really, really want to steer clear from ever being a game developer.

It's very far from a game developer issue, mainly. Essentially, working for a very public company and being anyone other then a nobody puts you in danger if your company isn't properly secured. I highly advise people, who have the ability to, to go to a Def Con conference, peoples eyes would open up in terms of the reality of where technology is and the security behind it(or the very lack of).

 

[Shinta]

Can I do that without being called an MRA? Is that okay now? Was never clear on it.

Calling people an MRA is another way of basically saying, you're either with us, or against us. You're a feminist or you're a bigot.

It's not true. That is basically saying, it is impossible to legitimately criticize feminism. It's always been the same smear. Fedora, MRA.

The message is, "no criticism allowed." That right there is one of the biggest criticisms about feminism in it's current, online form. That has nothing to do with being "anti-equality."

 

[TylerDurden4321]

I just woke up and tried to find my way into this thread... could someone explain to me, WHY we think that this

"because he's a feminism SJW"-stuff isn't just a supposedly better sounding "because /v/'s dick is mightiest there is and it had to be shown" from a 16year old?

 

[Conan-san]

Post any statement by Fish which justifies a ton of posts calling him a cunt (or worse).
Hard mode: No quoting out of context allowed.

"I won the grand prize at IGF, Choke on my dick."

Arsehole. Behaviour.

 

[Fattony12000]

 

[MormaPope]

Free speech exists for a reason. If someone wants to be an asshole on the internet, and use their real name such as on twitter, they will face the moral and social repercussions. If someone breaks a law on the internet, it is still illegal and they will still be charged if it is a real offense. Giving anyone the power to decide who is or is not fit for discussion on the internet is some 1984 shit. Obviously this site has rules, but this site is a private forum. You can't exert similar amounts of ruling on the rest of the internet.

The repercussions of somebody not famous in any sort of way is laughable.

I also never said the internet as a whole should be censored, rather, specific discussions, certain groups. How are those things decided, well, people that have no intention of listening or changing shouldn't be treated like everybody else, if that everybody else is willing to listen or change. If somebody can't handle themselves on twitter, them getting a IP ban for a couple of weeks at a time wouldn't be a drastic action from my perspective.

We're given something fantastic, the internet, and some people utilize this gift like shit.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Absolutely disgusting, hope these hackers experience the full force of the law!

 

[Goddard]

Not necessarily.

I don't think the mods here have 30 minute discussions on if they should ban somebody because that person went on an insane, racist tirade. Sometimes its easy to call a spade a spade. If somebody starts a thread on a forum somewhere about systematically tracking down info about Phil Spencer because he knew somebody at Frito Lay, that thread being plucked and dumped wouldn't change much.

Someone having the power to censor on a private internet forum where by creating an account you agree to be under the power of moderation is massively different from giving someone the power to decide what is and what isn't able to be said on a public forum.

If a team of mods was assembled that had the power to go to any public place on the internet and delete shit that didn't contribute to their idea of good discussion, it would be totalitarian rule. You cannot do shit like that in a public forum. No one deserves that power. Here is private and completely separate.

Every single person who participated in the abuse he gets shares the responsibility.
What's so hard to get about this? If you are ganging up on a kid in school, everyone who participated is at fault. Mobbing is not about who bullies the hardest.
I guess it's easy to hide behind dat internet anonymity and dismiss this responsibility.

The problem with that logic is that you are looking at it like a bunch of kids ganging up on someone at school. It isn't. It is a very large number of people individually responding to something. That is not abuse. That isn't to say Phil doesn't receive abuse all the time, he does, but someone on GAF calling him an asshole is not comparable in any way shape or form to orchestrating a hate campaign. It is also not comparable to ganging up.

 

[Empty]

fish reaps what he sows in some areas but this is absolutely disgusting and terrifying and so so far beyond the pale. beyond the personal ramifications which are crazy, and ironically given that anti-sjw types are always complaining about chilling effects and bullying, this is actual bullying of people out of the public sphere for certain political opinions and has a clear chilling effect on speech.

 

[Dragonborn]

Calling people an MRA is another way of basically saying, you're either with us, or against us. You're a feminist or you're a bigot.

It's not true. That is basically saying, it is impossible to legitimately criticize feminism. It's always been the same smear. Fedora, MRA.

The message is, "no criticism allowed." That right there is one of the biggest criticisms about feminism in it's current, online form. That has nothing to do with being "anti-equality."

Exactly and what's worse is that it muddies the water for those who are seeking true equality. I tell you, it's alwayd that loud minority that sets everyone else back

 

[Nephrahim]

Man, the Moderators sure are on the ball in this thread. But fair enough, I knew that image might have been pushing it, thank you for just deleting it.

 

[unbias]

The repercussions of somebody not famous in any sort of way is laughable.

I also never said the internet as a whole should be censored, rather, specific discussions, certain groups. How are those things decided, well, people that have no intention of listening or changing shouldn't be treated like everybody else, if that everybody else is willing to listen or change. If somebody can't handle themselves on twitter, them getting a IP ban for a couple of weeks at a time wouldn't be a drastic action from my perspective.

We're given something fantastic, the internet, and some people utilize this gift like shit.

If your goal is to reduce hackers, doing the bold would probably encourage the opposite of what you want.

 

[dark_inferno]

I think you misunderstood me. I'm talking about the employees being unprofessional not the fans.

Oh okay.
And no Valve is pretty open about Employees doing their thing. They can sit there doing nothing for months without getting fired.

And this is the stuff im talking about. There could be one who came their with stuff he had done with some people (so its not his credit) and could sit there day after day without doing anything. So im pretty sure a Phil Fish would be a bit more talented than a said employee.

Just speculation. Doesnt mean that Valve Employees are all like that. But there could have at least one Black Sheep there.

 

[Karkador]

It can be. You'd have to listen to the critique of feminism to know.

I don't know if this is a personal jab at me, or what, but I've read plenty of posts on the internet about feminism.

Calling people an MRA is another way of basically saying, you're either with us, or against us. You're a feminist or you're a bigot.

It's not true. That is basically saying, it is impossible to legitimately criticize feminism. It's always been the same smear. Fedora, MRA.

This is derailing, so I'll be brief:

For saying people are being lazy, you're being lazy here. "Fedora" is pejorative, but not exclusive (or even mostly used) by feminists. "MRA" is a weird thing to call a smear when it is an actual set of beliefs that people on the internet subscribe to and willingly post about.

 

[YianGaruga]

Phil is disliked because he's not just the worst, but one of the *only* horrifically toxic *public* personalities in gaming. I've met much worse industry people in person, but Phil is the only one stupid enough to be open with the vitriol. That video is way off the mark.

Following him on twitter the last two weeks was hard. He just openly insulted pretty much everyone. Absolutely unnecessary toxic behaviour.
What happened here is terrible and indefensible, but Fish, at least how he portrayed himself online, is an asshole. He just seemed to enjoy to be in the middle of this huge shitstorm and fueling it at every opportunity

 

[MormaPope]

If your goal is to reduce hackers, doing the bold would probably encourage the opposite of what you want.

A lot of people that harass others aren't hackers.

But this is a off topic discussion at this point.

 

[Dr.Acula]

Ah, removed.

 

[PrivateRyan]

Well, this is depressing news to wake up to.

Not so much the specifics of this particular story but more that it serves as further proof of how toxic and destructive certain segments of gaming culture is becoming (has become?)

And more depressing still is how much time and energy destructive idiots devote to justify being destructive idiots.

Sigh.