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Possible law to control "leftist" profs....
- Thread starter Tedesco!
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Manabanana
Member
How fucking stupid can you be! Do they know where the money would be coming from if they sued teachers? And they want to cut taxes on top of that! AAAAGH! The logical part of me says this will NEVER pass. Reality tells me that it made the first step 
King Jippo
Banned
Absolutely not. Stupid shit like this gets proposed all the time from both sides of the spectrum. If it becomes law/policy, then its time to ask your question.Tedesco! said:
Cerebral Palsy
Banned
State ran media and a state mandated belief system? Sounds like communism to me! ^5 the Republicans!!!
The Take Out Bandit
Member
It seems like a lot of people on the 'net are liberals, shame it's not quite like that in real life
It seems a lot of the people on the 'net love hardcore porn and on-line gambling too, but after 5PM they've got the wife, the kids, and the white picket fence. Gotta maintain the Bush regime facade. :lol
BigGreenMat
Member
The sad thing is that the conservative movement and the self-imposed ignorance that it preaches is the hallmark of an aging, weakening power. The fact that we are trying to ignore the problems around us and instead try to root out the intellectuals around us that give opposing or unaligned views to our fantastical imaginary status. Generally declining societies make a call to go back to their moral roots or base values, ie go back to the way things used to be, and ignore all advances. You have to look no further than attempts to censure creative outlet, whether it be TV, Radio, Film, Interactive Entertainment, or Academic Thought, to see our attempts to shut out the new and progressive and move back to the old and regressive with the only problem being that you can't be on the top and be in such a state. At least I will have lived through most of the golden age.
To be fair, I've had seen horrible leftist professors. They call you stupid if you don't believe their way and think they're all knowing. They also try to push their beliefs onto you or call you stupid if you don't accept them. On the other hand though, I've had some really good ones who explain their side and tell you about the other side and let you decide what you like. I don't think you should be able to sue anyone though... Just smack the hell out of some of them.
Fragamemnon
Member
This bill is one of mnay circulating around state legislatures across the country. It's all part of a movement led by David Horowitz, former communist and marxist in the 1960s who later, like many in that movement, turned to the neoconservative movement in the late 70s and 80s which is now mainstream American conservatism.
The basic gist of it is this-to execute a Maoist-style Cultural Revolution on college campuses to stifle open discourse in academia and to provide a valid means to insert partisan ideology into discussions in which said ideologies do not stand up against creditable academic criticism.
For a more entertaining look, complete with pictures, I refer you to the invaluable Billmon. What's really a shame is that the picture links don't work any longer, as they were the real gem of the post (Ronald Reagan being superimposed for Mao in one of the pictures was hysterical).
The basic gist of it is this-to execute a Maoist-style Cultural Revolution on college campuses to stifle open discourse in academia and to provide a valid means to insert partisan ideology into discussions in which said ideologies do not stand up against creditable academic criticism.
For a more entertaining look, complete with pictures, I refer you to the invaluable Billmon. What's really a shame is that the picture links don't work any longer, as they were the real gem of the post (Ronald Reagan being superimposed for Mao in one of the pictures was hysterical).
Does this republican even understand that if this bill passes its going to increase tution in FL state colleges dramatically? That sure sounds like a bright idea to me...
lets make horribly underfunded, and expensive institutions more expensive so only a few people can pay for it!!
Thank god i live in a fairly liberal state.
lets make horribly underfunded, and expensive institutions more expensive so only a few people can pay for it!!
Thank god i live in a fairly liberal state.
Nope. Like Frag pointed out, this is part of an organized effort from the right side of the spectrum. David Horowitz, Students for Academic Freedom, the whole shebang. State legislators have proposed bills like this in Florida, Ohio, Indiana, and Rhode Island too, and they're all coming from the same side.
Larry Mumper said:
Here's the talking point to watch out for: "Alternative viewpoints should be taught, and not snuffed out by the professors' bias." They'll try to make it sound like they're taking politics out of the curriculum when they'd really be putting it in.
Remember, if alternate perspectives really do get taught in class, then we aren't just talking about a more pro-US interpretation of history, or even creationism. Physics professors would have to discuss the flow of chi, biology professors would have to teach about the four humors, and astronomy teachers would have to teach astrology.
sykoex said:
Do you understand the consequences this bill will have? State colleges will be regulated by politicians who arent teachers, arent experts, and have a political agenda. Not to mention that the worst part will be that colleges will have to increase tuition to pay for lawyers and the lawsuits filed against them.
Urghh... is it so hard to ignore the teacher or file a complaint with the principal instead of suing? Not to mention in college you can freely drop a class without penality in the first two weeks, and later you just get a little mark on your transcript. If you dont like the prof of class just drop it, simple, there is no need to sue because this bill will academically hurt the school and will increase tuition dramatically
Ecrofirt said:
I don't really care for that either. Unless the issue is brought up, then I have no problem with it.
However, what really saddens me is that the bill suggests that teachers can no longer go on the offensive, that teachers have to sit idly by and HOPE that students learn. If some of my teachers didn't use the Socratic method with me (and vice-versa), I probably wouldn't have a grasp on some ideas/thoughts. It's frightening to think that if this spreads out to other states, that almost all universities would be like this.
Sometimes, actually, I like having a teacher with an opposite opinion. It allows me to flesh out my arguments and be able to understand all sides of an issue. If we take away opinions, then all we'll be able to see is one side; a 2-d spectrum of thought.
Part of education is learning to separate opinion from fact, learning to chose to disagree with people you disagree with and learning to pick your fights.
Lets say you want to believe that God made the world out of Play-doh in six days, your lesson in a science class would be that most of the scientific community believes differently, and that your test answers in a science class should reflect their beliefs.
If you want to profess creation in a theology or a philosophy essay that's fine, but in science, you have to go with the way the wind is blowing.
And this goes for any kind of belief. Business schools teach capitalism. Psychology schools teach SSRIs and therapy. Medicine teaches diagosis and treatment.
You can beleive that communism is better or that pychology kills or that praying is the only way to heal cancer, but that's not going to get you very far in the respective fields or even get you the degree you're shooting for.
Lets say you want to believe that God made the world out of Play-doh in six days, your lesson in a science class would be that most of the scientific community believes differently, and that your test answers in a science class should reflect their beliefs.
If you want to profess creation in a theology or a philosophy essay that's fine, but in science, you have to go with the way the wind is blowing.
And this goes for any kind of belief. Business schools teach capitalism. Psychology schools teach SSRIs and therapy. Medicine teaches diagosis and treatment.
You can beleive that communism is better or that pychology kills or that praying is the only way to heal cancer, but that's not going to get you very far in the respective fields or even get you the degree you're shooting for.
well since explodet's original thread is being completely ignored I'll copy and paste my response into this one...
here's the rub... if a student doesn't like the way a professor teaches a class they can choose not to attend classes taught by that professor, they can choose not to attend that school. The student can choose to do all sorts of things to avoid such a situation. The same thing applies to the University, they can choose to hire the professor, they can choose what classes the professor teaches. There is no obligation for the professor to changes his/her teaching methods, if the University doesn't like what the professor is doing they can choose to fire him/her. The only time a problem could arise is if the University gives the professor tenure, but even then the University can technically fire him/her it's just really hard, plus as I stated above the student can choose not to take courses by that professor or choose to attend a different school. It's not like it's mandatory public education.
here's the rub... if a student doesn't like the way a professor teaches a class they can choose not to attend classes taught by that professor, they can choose not to attend that school. The student can choose to do all sorts of things to avoid such a situation. The same thing applies to the University, they can choose to hire the professor, they can choose what classes the professor teaches. There is no obligation for the professor to changes his/her teaching methods, if the University doesn't like what the professor is doing they can choose to fire him/her. The only time a problem could arise is if the University gives the professor tenure, but even then the University can technically fire him/her it's just really hard, plus as I stated above the student can choose not to take courses by that professor or choose to attend a different school. It's not like it's mandatory public education.
Fragamemnon
Member
FYI, the links on that earlier Billmon post are working now. Funny, funny stuff.
Yeah, but this kind of legislation doesn't apply to things like that. I think it's unethical to make jabs like that in a classroom of students, myself.
What it *does* apply to is teaching things in the humanities and social sciences. OK, so we have this academic freedom stuff legislated and passed. Next thing you know, your economic professor is going to have to "balance" his merited dicussion of Keynesian economics and be forced-by law-to have to present some supply-side theory being whored around by the American Enterprise Institute and reinforced by other bullshit studies by right wing think tanks because some student doesn't "believe" in Keynesian economics.
In doing so, the educational process is corrupted. Failing to gain recognition of their ideas on their own merits-often because they are, quite simply, meritless, the ideology will be ramrodded into the academic discourse and curriculum.
How the hell would you teach humanities? I took a Cultural Imperialism class in college, and there's no way you could rationally discuss the reasoning behind modern global anti-Americanism in an honest discourse without some wingnut student going crazy and presenting some outrageous, unsubstantiated view supplied by the Heritage Foundation.
To back off a bit-it's NOT right for you to teach a class and use it as a platform for attacking ideologies and political parties or their members. It is fine for you to teach the basically accepted, academically vetted theories and models of the time to instruct your students. It is NOT fine for the students themselves to cherry-pick which theories and models you should teach, especially when said information is not subject to real scientific or reasonable peer review that all of academia is based on.
Edit: Sweet jesus, can you imagine a class in comparative religion with this kind of law? Oy.
Yeah, but this kind of legislation doesn't apply to things like that. I think it's unethical to make jabs like that in a classroom of students, myself.
What it *does* apply to is teaching things in the humanities and social sciences. OK, so we have this academic freedom stuff legislated and passed. Next thing you know, your economic professor is going to have to "balance" his merited dicussion of Keynesian economics and be forced-by law-to have to present some supply-side theory being whored around by the American Enterprise Institute and reinforced by other bullshit studies by right wing think tanks because some student doesn't "believe" in Keynesian economics.
In doing so, the educational process is corrupted. Failing to gain recognition of their ideas on their own merits-often because they are, quite simply, meritless, the ideology will be ramrodded into the academic discourse and curriculum.
How the hell would you teach humanities? I took a Cultural Imperialism class in college, and there's no way you could rationally discuss the reasoning behind modern global anti-Americanism in an honest discourse without some wingnut student going crazy and presenting some outrageous, unsubstantiated view supplied by the Heritage Foundation.
To back off a bit-it's NOT right for you to teach a class and use it as a platform for attacking ideologies and political parties or their members. It is fine for you to teach the basically accepted, academically vetted theories and models of the time to instruct your students. It is NOT fine for the students themselves to cherry-pick which theories and models you should teach, especially when said information is not subject to real scientific or reasonable peer review that all of academia is based on.
Edit: Sweet jesus, can you imagine a class in comparative religion with this kind of law? Oy.
radioheadrule83
Banned
I don't think such a law would come to pass....
but I will say I'd support some kind of heavily dumbed down variation.
I'd personally say I'm left of center on lots of things. But I can say without doubt that I've had leftist lecturer after left leaning lecturer myself, and I do personally feel that they are too liberal with airing their views in the classroom sometimes. I think there's a real danger this helps spread apathy among students, or worse still, unbalanced anti-establishment / anti-everything views. I've sat there in classes and the teacher comes out with a jab at Tony Blair or the Labour government -- and I really couldn't care less who or what government it was, the point remains -- what the fuck does this have to do with my class? Especially with reference to current affairs, and the immediate politick of the here and now: people of such influence, sometimes reverence even, these people shouldn't be airing their personal views while they teach.
It's fine that someone in such a job holds partisan views, but they should be kept private in that place of work IMO unless it is entirely relevant to the course/subject. There should be a system in place where people like this can be reported and disciplined.
It'd be nice if such a system could also be put to use by some local religions and their wayward clerics.
Freedom of speech is a beautiful thing, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't make sure people don't abuse it. Especially if there's a chance that abuse of that freedom is robbing people of another freedom: the freedom to think for themselves and choose their own vision of their country's culture to follow. Education should be an objective environment that nurtures the mind. Not one that feeds it one side of the story.
but I will say I'd support some kind of heavily dumbed down variation.
I'd personally say I'm left of center on lots of things. But I can say without doubt that I've had leftist lecturer after left leaning lecturer myself, and I do personally feel that they are too liberal with airing their views in the classroom sometimes. I think there's a real danger this helps spread apathy among students, or worse still, unbalanced anti-establishment / anti-everything views. I've sat there in classes and the teacher comes out with a jab at Tony Blair or the Labour government -- and I really couldn't care less who or what government it was, the point remains -- what the fuck does this have to do with my class? Especially with reference to current affairs, and the immediate politick of the here and now: people of such influence, sometimes reverence even, these people shouldn't be airing their personal views while they teach.
It's fine that someone in such a job holds partisan views, but they should be kept private in that place of work IMO unless it is entirely relevant to the course/subject. There should be a system in place where people like this can be reported and disciplined.
It'd be nice if such a system could also be put to use by some local religions and their wayward clerics.
Freedom of speech is a beautiful thing, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't make sure people don't abuse it. Especially if there's a chance that abuse of that freedom is robbing people of another freedom: the freedom to think for themselves and choose their own vision of their country's culture to follow. Education should be an objective environment that nurtures the mind. Not one that feeds it one side of the story.
Cerebral Palsy said:
Academia is already "state mandated." Where do you think the primary source of university funding comes from? Tuition?
:lol
Erm, no.
Higher learning marches walkstep with corporate America. The idea that one of the greatest beneficiaries of corporate donations is "leftist," as laughable a postulation as the "liberal" media, is just another one of those ubiquitous lies that an ignorant public obligingly laps up.
Until you start targeting "conservatives" with violence, there will be no change. Simple protest will not stymie the neo-fascist attempt to subdue the freedom of those who dissent. You have to attack these people with bullets -- not rhetoric..
One more thing, professors get paid very little as it is, so if this legislation goes through, and students are able to sue professors then their will be lot less incentive for people to become professors. Consequently, the quality in professors will decrease.
Oh yea, i agree that i dont like professors who spew liberal/conservative propaganda as well. I got a professor for an American history class that goes until the 1830's, and he constantly demeans bush and conservatives. Urghh, i hate that. Im not here to learn what you think on Bush, im here to learn what you know about the history of America up till 1830!!
Even though i dont like profs spewing their opinions when its irrelevant, i think we should leave academic freedom intact, because if we dont the consequences are too great.
Oh yea, i agree that i dont like professors who spew liberal/conservative propaganda as well. I got a professor for an American history class that goes until the 1830's, and he constantly demeans bush and conservatives. Urghh, i hate that. Im not here to learn what you think on Bush, im here to learn what you know about the history of America up till 1830!!
Even though i dont like profs spewing their opinions when its irrelevant, i think we should leave academic freedom intact, because if we dont the consequences are too great.
Gonaria said:
You're not there to "learn" the history of America up to 1830. You're there to justify the exorbitant pricetag your university charges.
Why shouldn't a professor demean Bush during the course of your "studies"? It's not as if you're actually THINKING, applying what you've "learned" in any practical fashion. Unless you're partial to the Hitlerian Texan, why would you care that your professor spits upon that disgrace?
4 years of debt so you can be shat out to join the other flag waving automata.
peedi said:
No, im there to learn American history up to 1830, and i dont like when he demeans bush because it takes time away from learning about American history. History courses require a lot of analytical thinking, and my goal is to get into graduate school and become a history professor so learning about American history would be practical. Of course, if i dont get into grad school, then thats something else...
Thankfully, i go to an in-state college so its pretty cheap and my parents pay for it, so im not in debt
what good is history unless you can apply it to current situations? I'm not saying your professor should be making fun of Bush but if what he's teaching can be applied to the present day, then he should apply it. If it puts Bush in a bad light, well that's Bush's fault isn't it.
darkiguana
Member
I have followed Horowitz's movement for awhile and the goal is not to get rid of liberal professors or have an "affirmative action for conservative professors" on colleges either. The idea is that professors need to spend class time teaching the subject, not brainwashing the students into believing what they think(liberal or conservative). A student should not be forced to write an essay defending an opinion that he/she thinks is crap. Professors should not be trying to get students to join a politcal movement whatever it may be. At least not during class time. And students should not be failed because they disagree with the professor. That's the goal of the Academic Bill of Rights.
This is exactly the type of crap that the Academic Bill of Rights is trying to stop.
As far as this bill in florida, goes, IMHO it goes way to far. The lawsuit stuff is BS.
darkiguana
This is exactly the type of crap that the Academic Bill of Rights is trying to stop.
As far as this bill in florida, goes, IMHO it goes way to far. The lawsuit stuff is BS.
darkiguana
max_cool said:
Thats why i said in my previous posts that i have a problem with professors spewing their opinions when its irrelevant, and when my profesoor rags on Bush it has nothing to do with the class. If their opinion is relevant to the class then i have no problem with it, but if it isnt i just find it annoying. I dont think anything should be done about it because the consequences are too great, but i still find it annoying.
The whole point of higher ed is to think about different points of view.
U should be old enough to sort the good from the bad and argue your case. Geez most of the questions i'm getting in my masters do not have a clearly defined answer. U have to argue your side and the other side and make a judgement.
I'd hate it if i was being taught only the view mandated by some special interest group or the govt (welcome to the Soviet Union) I'd much rather do something and make up my own mind.
This is very very dangerous.
U should be old enough to sort the good from the bad and argue your case. Geez most of the questions i'm getting in my masters do not have a clearly defined answer. U have to argue your side and the other side and make a judgement.
I'd hate it if i was being taught only the view mandated by some special interest group or the govt (welcome to the Soviet Union) I'd much rather do something and make up my own mind.
This is very very dangerous.
radioheadrule83 said:
Any variation of this kind of law would be the equivelent of teh Freedom of Speech being abducted and gang raped by politicians. They should stay the hell out of the college system, and let individual universities decide their own policies, with input from the student body.
For God sake, college students are adults, not children. We don't need this crap.
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